UKC

When you've reached the top of an indoor route, especially leading, is it considered fair to grab the top of wall to clip in the last clip.

I've met people who said it is fine, however when I do it I always feel like I've cheated the last clip..

Thoughts?

In reply to rjacko10:

I'd say it was cheating. It's also against the rules of most walls (because of the risk of injury from splinters etc).

Doesn't mean I don't do it (just as it doesn't mean I don't sit on the rope for a rest or grab a different coloured hold while I work something out), but IMO if you don't clip the lower-off while holding a hold that is intentionally part of the route you haven't climbed it clean.

Neil

In reply to rjacko10: Depends on the wall, as to what is accepted. Sometimes the wall is designed to be grabbed hold of and smoothed off accordingly. At other walls the routes tend to finish on a large jug which denotes the end of the route. At others it's a little less obvious, you just have to go with what is generally accepted at the specific local wall.

In reply to rjacko10:

I think you may be taking indoor walls a bit too seriously. It's only a bit of plastic

In reply to rjacko10:

I wouldn't worry too much, at most walls the routes seem to have a technical crux a little over half height, followed by a pumpy section and an easier move with OMG hold at the top, ie the route is done with by the penultimate clip.

A purist would disagree and most people feel the same as you that it is cheating a bit, i try not to do it but dont lay awake at night worrying over it!

In reply to rjacko10: It's a poorly designed climbing wall as all routes should end on 'black jugs' - hahaha

BW

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


Well you could equally say the same about taking the rules in any aspect of climbing too seriously, after all there's a path up the back. If you are going to play a game you might as well play by the rules, indoors or out.

In reply to the OP, it depends on the house rules but at most walls, the lower off should be clipped from the last hold before the route is 'done'.

In reply to rjacko10:

Oh dear. The old chain grab. I've done it on a few routes outdoors. I always mention it if I have grabbed or not though.

In reply to rjacko10:
The rules of the BMC Leading Ladder competition say that you have to clip the lower-off while using the holds.

I tend to use the holds to clip into the snapgate, then hang on to anything nearby while I mess about with the screwgate.

Chris

In reply to rjacko10:

Not clipping the last clip and taking a lead fall when safe to do so at the gym as a matter of habit, is suggested in 9/10 of climbers make the same mistakes. (As part of a strategy to overcome the common fear of falling).

Why would you grab the top of the wall to make the last clip?

(Seems a minor question to me personally, as long as you reached the top.)

(Ahh, I've made the assumption of permanent draws...)

In reply to chris_r:

If you're leading, why would you bother with the screwgate?

In reply to Oceanrower:

If someone is going to second/toprope the route after you?

Neil

In reply to rjacko10:

If I'm not expecting a second, quite often I'll just touch the chains, call "watch me", and let go. Helps keep the "lead head" intact too, I find.

In reply to sarahlizzy:

Never seem to be able to get myself to do that for some reason... I've got a friend (who sometimes posts here, so he may appear to defend himself ) who's been known to pull slack through as if he was going to clip it *then* let go. Makes me feel scared just thinking about doing that!

Neil

In reply to sarahlizzy:

Blimey. I wouldn't do that without warning your second first, if I were you.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Given that you could fall off when clipping the lower-off by accident, I don't see a massive problem with doing that. If they are paying attention they will catch you...

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Quite so.

However, my experience suggests that before conducting gratuitous live-body tests to see whether your belayer is paying attention, it's better to check whether they are. Otherwise you may end up giving instructions to your lawyer from a wheelchair.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not an unfair point...

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Agree - maybe she should shout "watch me" before jumping off or something...

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Very droll. I'd do a bit more than that myself if I was going to do this 'often'.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think the call "watch me" counts as adequate warning. Also, if it's a regular thing, then the belayer should be expecting it.

Not to mention that any belayer who can't be trusted to hold an unexpected fall should either be re-trained or relieved of belaying duties.

In reply to jalien:

>"Been Climbing For
1 to 3 years"

OK, whatever. You jump off when you like.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I've been known to take an unexpected lob. I only climb with people I trust to belay me. If someone is in any way sketchy I just won't climb with them.

I can't see a problem with touching the chains and letting go. They'd have to have a hell of a lot of slack out for you to deck.

In reply to mikeski:


Hey, good for you. I expect Martin Crocker's the same, and he was dropped all the way down an 80 foot pitch by a very experienced belayer.

>They'd have to have a hell of a lot of slack out for you to deck.

Sure. Or be scratching their arse because they think you’re safe, or thinking it’s about to be their go and bending over to get their shoes and have the handle of the gri-gri catch on their beer gut, or whatever.

In my experience, the best way to have an accident in many fields, belaying included, is not for one person to do something really crass (though obviously that helps) but for more than one person to do something a little bit unexpected, inattentive, or unwise, and for fate to arrange that those things coincide.

IMHO it’s best not to do stuff yourself which may be part of that chain, and then say your belayer needs retraining if disaster occurs. But hey, you do what you like.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: He says that he calls "watch me " although probably wants to be yelling "TAKE" if he's gonna toss himself off at the top (oh err sounds a bit rude).
I suppose if he has made an agreement with his belay bunny before hand (and it's safe to do so) then it's probably good training for leading.

In reply to Ciderslider:

'She' rather than 'he', wasn't it?

Anyway, I agree; I'm sure the occasional deliberate fall indoors is an excellent practice. I just don't think it's wise to introduce it without discussion, is all.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



No need for the passive aggressive stuff, I can see your point.

In reply to Ciderslider:

Shouting "TAKE" then jumping off before you feel the rope go tight would seem to me to be a great way to get your belayer (who's now faffing with a hand change) to fumble it and drop you.

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Oh yes, she it is. I totally agree that if you are gonna do it you should have reached agreement with your belay bunny first.

In reply to andic:

Well you've never climbed at UCR their pattern is closer to sustained climbing to one hard/crux move to a finish jug. So the hardest move is most of the time after the penultimate clip.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm glad you don't belay me mate - hand change ?????? If you've discussed the fact that you're likely to throw yourself off before hand and your second knows how to belay properly there shouldn't be a problem - after all I thought that the whole point in belaying was to arrest a fall (which quite often happens unexpectedly !)

In reply to Ciderslider:

Depends how much rope you're having to take in, think about it. If they are doing it right, they won't drop you, but there is no sense in confusing them!

Neil

Obviously you'd talk to your belayer about lobbing off the top before you do it. I wouldn't be shouting "take" though as that's likely to give you a harder catch.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Just checking Neil, I don't climb with you do I :p

I had one person belaying for me that moaned at me after I finished climbing because I didn't tell him that I was about to fall. In my defence I was on a slight overhang on two half pad crimps that I could only get 3 fingers on (just), how was I to know that I was going to slip.

In reply to rjacko10:

Always used to tell my belayer before the climb, then jump off after touching the final clip, then one day I forgot I was going to jump off so I started unscrewing the screwgate. my belayer assumed I was clipping and gave loads of slack. I then remembered about jumping, dropped off and fell about half the wall

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


ok, you stick to your old-school "leader must never fall" ethos



seriously, you then list a number of reasons why your belayer might drop you - all inexcusable! YOUR belayer might be complacent because s/he rarely has to catch unexpected falls, but that doesn't mean they're doing it right. I'd argue that I'm safer, with my belayer always on her toes for a fall, meaning that her no. 1 priority is never to let go of the rope, than you are with your very occasional falls and a belayer who might not be paying attention.

In reply to rjacko10:

It's just practice for outside... Oh wait.

In reply to ashley1_scott:

Not scared of belaying someone doing that, I have caught people doing it on a number of occasions both with and without warning. I mean the idea of *me* doing that as the climber! I keep thinking I should, then when I get up there fear kicks in and the lower-off gets clipped. The one time I recall having done something like that was when (at Creation in Brum) I got to the top of the route to find only a screwgate which turned out to be so tightly screwed in I couldn't undo it, ran out of strength and had to let go and take the fall.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:
If they are doing it right, they won't drop you, but there is no sense in confusing them!

Says it all really mate. I've taken numerous lead falls when at my local wall and the two guys who I regularly climb with are totally solid and I never have to worry about that end of the rope. I suppose it's down to experience and being happy with your belay buddy.
Also people tend to forget just what an important job belaying is - I know it sounds dramatic but you are literally holding someones life in your hands !
And if you're gonna get confused either don't belay or use a gri gri

In reply to Ciderslider:

If a belayer is dealing with several things at once, the risk of an error increases. They are only human. If you believe you are invincible as a climber or that you or your belayer will never make a mistake under pressure, you're deluding yourself.

Situations can arise that will increase pressure on your belayer. But why deliberately introduce them?

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

A passing thought - most air crashes are caused by human error, either alone or more commonly when under pressure from a combination of unusual occurrences.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Do as your friend does. (And get a belayer who can belay.)

In reply to Ciderslider:

I'm a she, and so is my usual belayer.

And no, I don't make a habit of ever calling "take" when I'm above the last clipped pro. It seems like a really good way to get hurt.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I've done that too. Airtime, whee, fun and all that.

Seriously: it's a climbing wall, you're maybe 13 metres up, the clips are every metre apart. Falling an extra couple of metres because the rope is slack is no big deal: you still end up more than 6 metres above the deck, which gives plenty of space for the QuickDraw to fail even. One can get a lot more run out than that on rock.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Get off your high horse. If the belayer can't handle a lead fall from the top of the route they shouldn't be belaying you for the rest of it.
Common place when doing fall practice is to miss the lower off and take the fall onto the last clip.

In reply to Neil Williams: Wow!! If I wasn't 100% confident that my belayer was going to catch me I wouldn't be climbing with them. "Sorry I didn't catch you and you broke your leg. I had a few things to concentrate on and I got a bit confused". Ummm, no. I don't think that I'm invincible and accidents can happen, but if my belayer may get confused within the confines of the gym then.......

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'd like to see you statistics on that. The ones I've seen actually paint a different picture, especially with the systems in big modern jets.
By your logic you'd prefer to have someone who's never taken a fall, belay you (as the leader never falls), rather than someone who's taken hundreds in the relatively controlled enviroment of the climbing gym? Yes people make mistakes, but the best, most proven way of minimising the human error factor is to repeatedly practice a given situation in a controlled enviroment.

p.s I hate taking practice falls, but having climbed with people who do on a regular basis it definatly has impproved my belaying.

In reply to Cameron94:

"Been Climbing For
1 to 3 years"

Again, eh? Who'd've thought it?

>Get off your high horse. If the belayer can't handle a lead fall from the top of the route they shouldn't be belaying you for the rest of it.

I think you're the one on the high horse. When you're a bit older you'll learn that the world is not divided into those who belay perfectly, who should be admitted to your presence, and those who don't, who should be cast in the outer darkness. Rather, it is made up of a range of individuals absolutely none of whom belay perfectly, and each of whom (yes, even you) is a fallible human who might do something stupid. It pays to remember this.

jcm

In reply to fraserbarrett:

>Yes people make mistakes, but the best, most proven way of minimising the human error factor is to repeatedly practice a given situation in a controlled enviroment.

You're right - no question but that fall training is a good practice. It's just wise to tell your belayer first that he or she is taking part in it, that's all.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


The man who suggests that instructing lawyers is appropriate if their belayer makes an honest mistake is likely to find themselves short of climbing partners!

In reply to sarahlizzy: Hi Sarah, sorry wasn't meaning to cause any offence to you or your belayer.
You seem to contradict yourself as in your earlier post you state that you quite often touch the chain and shout to your belayer before jumping off ????

In reply to Neil Williams: Agreed, but nothing is 100% (isn't that why we climb).
I personally think that taking controlled falls is a good thing (we are all different).
And when you say belayer dealing with several things at once ????????? He/she should be belaying.
There's risk involved in day to day living .

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I admire your patience

In reply to Ciderslider:

I don't have an issue with people taking controlled falls (though I'm usually too much of a wuss to take them myself). I would just warn the belayer first just to be absolutely sure (why take unnecessary risk?) and probably not use "take" as the warning as that could itself cause confusion as to your intentions.

If someone shouted "take" when they were above the clip it would most likely have me reacting with "What? I'll pull you off!" - but then I tend not to leave a big loop of slack when belaying like some do, so I would only really expect "take" if the climber had the clip above in and wanted to sit on the rope. It wouldn't cause me to drop you, but even so why introduce the confusion?

But then I always had a fairly morbid attitude to safety, in the sense I can be very pessimistic and analytical about it rather than just going "it won't happen to me". So, no, I don't feel 100% safe when off the ground whoever is belaying, but there are for me bounds of acceptable safety, IYSWIM. I do admire those who have 100% confidence in gear/belayers as they will do stuff I'll only do on a top rope, but that isn't me and isn't ever likely to be.

I have a feeling that these two cultures do clash a bit, with those who can develop that sort of faith saying "get a new belayer" or similar. Not a problem as such, but it does lead to threads like these...

Neil

In reply to timjones:
The leader is so obsessed with the jumping bit he does not check properly.

1. He knocks off a leader on an adjacent route during the fall.
2. He tries to grab a quick draw on the way down and rips his hand.
3. He drags his belayer up to the first bolt, he traps his hand and lets go.

We have a situation!

Oh and the belayer is a lawyer, or is that what you mean by a “honest mistake” ?

In reply to Neil Williams:
I love this thread.

Take means the same in all climbing contexts. It is a mild request to the belayer to lock the rope off, which seems like a good idea if one fancies practicing leader falls as opposed to testing the reactions or attentiveness of the belayer.

In reply to Ciderslider:

I do. I don't see the contradiction?

I've been climbing [counts] 31 years now. Recently I threaded the grigri the wrong way and had a rather nervous time lowering my mate off after I noticed. I'm a tit. People are fallible.

In reply to Mike Highbury:


That's not what I means when I use it, and I know many others. It means take in rope, as in make it tight, so I can rest on the draw.

In reply to sarahlizzy:

And which do you want to be uppermost in your belayer's mind? The oodles of slack or the locking off the rope?

In reply to sarahlizzy:

Blimey again.

So in your vocabulary, "watch me" means "look at me, I'm going to jump off", and "take" means the same as "take in"?

Well, just so you know, if you ever climb with anyone of my age, they will almost certainly think that:-

“Watch me” means, “kindly pay more attention than usual to such matters as paying out rope at the right time and catching me if I fall off, as this bit is tricky”.

“Take” means, “I am about to weight the rope, please take appropriate action.”, and

“Take in” means take in the slack, for whatever reason.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There is no compulsion to look. "Watch me" merely means a fall is likely.

It's also perhaps unwise, and I say this as someone who once held an aviation RT licence, to have two calls which mean different things, and which differ by merely one syllable, such as "take" and "take in".

I'm reminded of the man I once encountered at Stanage, who while he should be minding his own business belaying his own second, decided to tell me off for not using the same word he used to request a taught rope (I was on a top rope at the time, not leading), instead of the one I knew my belayer would actually understand and respond to. I thanked him for his contribution, and continued to use the protocol we had already agreed upon.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

I'd rather them not try and make the rope tight when I'm above pro, as it will pull me off the wall. I also know my belayer quite well, being civilly partnered to her for the purpose, and am confident that she will not be belaying so badly that there will be sufficient slack to cause me to deck from the top of an indoor climbing wall should I take a fall I warn her about beforehand, especially when she is already working with the assumption that one might happen with no notice at all, which they sometimes do.

If you belay in such a way that a fall from the very top is such a dubious prospect, I think I would decline to do falling practice with you, and quite possibly leading at all: if that's what can happen at the top, the third clip would likely be quite psychologically counterproductive.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

"“Take” means, “I am about to weight the rope, please take appropriate action.”, and

“Take in” means take in the slack, for whatever reason."

I've never heard of anyone else using those in a differentiated way like that, and indeed they would be a poor choice to use in that way because it is easy to confuse them.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

(That said, what this does highlight is that it's probably worth having a conversation about what means what with any new climbing partner!)

Neil

In reply to MikeYouCanClimb:

It appears that climbing with a lawyer might be a very serious mistake indeed ;(

When you choiose to climb you accept the risks and you insure yourself againest the financial consequences of injury to yourself if you feel that you need to. IMO you don't sue your partner for a risk that you accepted.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

"Take means the same in all climbing contexts. It is a mild request to the belayer to lock the rope off"

It means to pull the rope in so there is no slack. Or that's what I was always taught.

Asking the belayer to lock off is a fairly pointless call because the rope should be locked off anyway (unless belaying palm-up US-style, but I am not a fan of that), though "watch me" might at least alert them that a fall is more likely. If I was planning a big deliberate lob at an indoor wall when communication is generally easy anyway, I'd be more likely to use a more verbose request.

Neil

In reply to MikeYouCanClimb:

"1. He knocks off a leader on an adjacent route during the fall.
2. He tries to grab a quick draw on the way down and rips his hand.
3. He drags his belayer up to the first bolt, he traps his hand and lets go."

1. Why was he climbing too close to another climber at an indoor wall? If routes overlap, choose a different one. Inconsiderate at least.

2. Silly move on the climber's part, his own loss, no-one to sue.

3. Belayer too light, why was a weight bag or ground anchor not being used? (As a heavier climber I tend to consider this my responsibility rather than the belayer's, particularly as I'm 18 stone but don't really look it).

Neil

In reply to sarahlizzy:

>"Watch me" merely means a fall is likely.

I don't know about 'likely'. Many climbers use the expression mainly as an emotional safety valve. 'More probable than usual', let's say.

>It's also perhaps unwise, and I say this as someone who once held an aviation RT licence, to have two calls which mean different things, and which differ by merely one syllable, such as "take" and "take in".

I agree with that; it's not perfect but still I think that's the standard.


You can use whatever protocol you like with a regular belayer, of course, but you'd be wise to know there are other protocols out there.

jcm

In reply to Neil Williams:

>It means to pull the rope in so there is no slack. Or that's what I was always taught.

Really?? Taught by whom?

>Asking the belayer to lock off is a fairly pointless call because the rope should be locked off anyway

Nonsense. It can't be locked off at all times otherwise it'll never move.

jcm

In reply to Neil Williams:


That's a good point, and indeed my own warning is often preceded by a short conversation which would start something like, "are you interested in seconding this?"

In reply to Neil Williams:

furthermore (although you should disregard everything I say because my profile says I've only been climbing for 1-3 years) if you shout "take" or "take in" to your belayer before you fall off (deliberate or not) then you'll likely end up with a much sharper swing into the wall than if there were a reasonable amount of slack to cushion your fall.

If you really want to be clear in your instructions, why not shout "falling" or "I'm off" or similar, which doesn't leave much room for confusion.

It all comes down to prior communication, and everyone being clear both about the different calls and their meanings, and whether or not huge whippers might be expected at the top.

In reply to sarahlizzy:

"It's also perhaps unwise, and I say this as someone who once held an aviation RT licence, to have two calls which mean different things, and which differ by merely one syllable, such as "take" and "take in"."

The other flaw in the climbing calls is that "OK" is an acknowledgement for almost anything at all, and therefore doesn't give a double confirmation the call has been understood. Aviation learnt that one years ago. If I recall, the US version of the climbing calls tend to be more specific in this way, e.g. "climbing -> climb on" rather than "climbing -> OK".

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

You might in particular hear Take in used before a climber has started climbing, Take has an urgency about it that a casual Take in may not, as the climber has started moving on.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


If your belayer can pay out rope correctly, then they should be able to do so while retaining control of the dead rope, so that an unexpected fall while paying out slack (or taking in) should still be arrested. This is effectively "locked off".

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

"Really?? Taught by whom?"

Other people I climb with.

"Nonsense. It can't be locked off at all times otherwise it'll never move."

But if you're not moving it, it should be locked off, so it only won't be locked off for a very short period each time you take in/pay out. And shouting "take (in)" is a good way to ensure that it won't be locked off for a short period just as you jump off, because it is being taken in. SO the default is locked off unless there is a good reason (taking in and paying out) for it not to be. So there doesn't need to be a call for the default situation, as it occurs in the absence of any other situation or request.

But if I wanted to shout for that, I'd probably shout "lock off" or "right hand down"[1]. Clear and unambiguous with any other call that might cause the rope not to be locked off. That said, on the rare occasion I have done a deliberate fall, it's been more like "I'm going to jump off, both hands on the dead rope", "OK", <look down to check they have>, <jump off>. And this would have been preceded with warning them I was going to do it before even starting the climb.

[1] I'd use this in response to an error by an inexperienced belayer and have done a few times, as it reinforces the specific action required.

Neil

In reply to jalien:

Except I suppose with Gri-gris. Which is one reason I dislike them. (I don't have the same issue with Click Ups or any other similar device, just the Gri-gri).

Neil

In reply to jalien:


Jeez. One might also say that you don't really need a call which says, "I am about to fall off; please increase my chances of injury.".

>If you really want to be clear in your instructions, why not shout "falling" or "I'm off" or similar, which doesn't leave much room for confusion.

Two syllables instead of one, I guess.

Look, this is a stupid discussion. Take my word for it, when an experienced leader says 'take' he does not mean 'take the slack in so that the fall I am about to take will be more dangerous'. He means what Mike Highbury and I said he means - "I'm about to weight the rope; act accordingly".

If Neil Williams has been taught differently, I'm afraid he's been taught by dangerous idiots. Either that or someone's made them Queen without me noticing and they've changed the entire climbing language.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'm loathe to say it looks like an indoor thing, but it looks like an indoor thing.

I was surprised when one of my kids took a leader fall, (and all his instruction was professional rather than my own amateur efforts)that he didn't alert his belayer to the fact he was coming off. In fact when I suggested he might like to do so he was a bit confused, thinking perhaps it's a good idea, perhaps not!

In reply to jalien:

Christ.

Obviously you should be able to pay out rope in such a way that you can still stop a fall. Otherwise we'd all be soloing half the time.

However, that doesn't mean the rope is 'locked off', because 'locked off' means that it won't run if weight is placed upon it. It is inevitable that at some point in the process the rope *will* run momentarily if unexpectedly weighted. Should this occur, the procedure is that the belayer then grasps it more firmly and thus stops it running. File under 'rocket science'.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

"Look, this is a stupid discussion. Take my word for it, when an experienced leader says 'take' he does not mean 'take the slack in so that the fall I am about to take will be more dangerous'."

At no point did I say it meant that! I just wouldn't expect anyone to call it if they weren't below the clip and wanting to rest on the rope. And if they did my action would most probably be just to lock off, probably with some sort of remark like "you don't want me to pull you off, surely".

Is this perhaps a trad-sport difference?

The point I'm making is that I see no difference between "take" and "take in", and I have never had anyone other than yourself suggest there is such a difference.

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>

Providing this "tuition" unsolicited to a climber on a nearby route while they are a) not in obvious difficulty b) communicating perfectly well with their belayer and c) concentrating on climbing, and while you are supposed to be concentrating on belaying your own second is possibly less helpful than you might think.

(I use "you" in a generic sense here. I'm not suggesting you were the ignorant gentleman in question)

The same man took the trouble to stop for a chat (well it was a bit more one sided than that), also unsolicited, about the merits of my ATC device a little while later. This might have been more welcome (well, probably not) were I not in the middle of using it to belay a climber myself at the time.

Interestingly, he only backed off when the one member of our party of six who happened to be male confirmed that he had no issues with how any of us were climbing or belaying. This might be relevant.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Except that 10% of people are left handed and some people can do both and may switch hands while belaying.

The idea of learning a common call is so that there is consistency between partners and so that it becomes almost instinctive in high pressure moments, without you having to consider the experience of the belayer or remembering which hand they were belaying with.

In reply to winhill:

So let's have one that doesn't have an ambiguous meaning with pulling in slack, then. If we don't, there's a chance people are going to get pulled off the wall, either because the belayer can't see them, or because of an "autopilot" type error.

Neil

In reply to sarahlizzy:

>Providing this "tuition" unsolicited to a climber on a nearby route .... is possibly less helpful than you might think.

I doubt if it *could* be less helpful than I already think it. I've no time at all for that sort of thing.

jcm

In reply to Neil Williams:

I definitely do get the feeling this one is about trad vs. (indoor/sport) though, as there isn't as much call for taking the rope tight and sitting on a bit of gear when climbing trad I guess.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

>The point I'm making is that I see no difference between "take" and "take in", and I have never had anyone other than yourself suggest there is such a difference.

I know that's the point you're making. The point I am making, and I assure you that I am correct, is that you are completely wrong and have absolutely no f***ing idea what you're talking about.

'Take in' is what seconds say when there's too much slack out. 'Take' is what they say when they need to hang at a particular point because they can't do it, need both hands to get the gear out, or whatever.

If you go to any trad cliff in the UK, you will hear people using these terms as I describe *all* *the* *bl**dy* *time*.

If you confuse the two, you will haul your second off by pulling too vigorously when all he wants is the slack taken in.

Neil, changing the subject slightly, would I be perchance be right in thinking that you are an inexperienced, and probably fairly useless, climber?

jcm

In reply to Kemics:

I'll stay away in that case then!!

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm fond of all three, but I don't make a habit of resting on gear on trad, nor taking deliberate falls. I only tend to do that indoors.

Only time I've called "take" when trad climbing is when involved in some capacity with the anchor.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

"Neil, changing the subject slightly, would I be perchance be right in thinking that you are an inexperienced, and probably fairly useless, climber?"

No need to get personal.

But I do climb mainly indoors (very little trad experience) and have been climbing regularly (at least once a week) for about 3 years, so if you think that makes my views useless that's up to you.

Do you often climb indoors or sport, or just trad?

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Correct and correct.

In my experience this is and always has been the case. With regards what I call when I'm about to fall, well I don't tend to have that luxury, it tends to be a 'oh damn' (or something similar) as I am falling. Although, as an act of self preservation, I will call 'watch me on this' just before or inform the belayer that this route is at or beyond my level so I am quite likely to fall at some point.

In reply to sarahlizzy:

My dear belayer, to whom I am civilly partnered for the purpose, has just reminded me that I called it on a trad route before being lowered off a pair of cams after being unable to take on the crux, and also that I was calling a lot of other things at the time too, some of which aren't printable.

So I stand corrected.

In reply to mhawk:

We shouldn't be as proscriptive as nthis an attentive belayer will react as much on what they see and feel through the rope as what a potentially stressed climbing partner utters. Lets not forget that if the climbing is good you quite possibly can't even hear what your partner is saying

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What does:
"watch me here, climbing,.... <silence> oooohhh shit shit shit er ,.....i'm coming off <nothing> take take arghhh!!!"

mean?

In reply to andic:

and what action should i take?



[from my smart phone]

In reply to andic:


too late

In reply to timjones: I agree, often such communication is either not possible or not required and a good belayer should be able to take clues from the rope as to what is going on. However, where verbal communication is possible and convenient, those calls are associated with those actions.

I am reminded of an event where a young chap, fresh from a PyB course stopped to give me some 'handy' advice after an epic shouting session at Tremadog. He informed me, that instead of shouting to be heard, my partner and I should communicate through rope tugs. I then asked how I might communicate to the leader that my rope (as the second) was jammed in a crack. He told me we should sort out our own code before hand, yes, but.......ta, thanks for that!

In reply to Neil Williams:


Just interested. I find one can generally form a view, and I like to see whether my guesses are right.


I didn't say your views were useless; on the contrary, they're a useful warning about the sorts of ignorance one may encounter. It's just that certain types of view, in my experience, tend to come from climbers who aren't very good. I'm always interested by this phenomenon.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

To be fair the discussion is useful - if climbing with a new partner I might well now have a discussion about what the various calls mean to ensure we think the same way and avoid this discrepancy being an isue.

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Wow. Way to turn a potentially useful thread into something really sour and unhelpful.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>It's just that certain types of view, in my experience, tend to come from climbers who aren't very good. I'm always interested by this phenomenon.

and may I ask what makes you such a good climber? Is it the grades you have climbed? Have you never fallen off? Are you having more fun than anyone else at the crag? You're certainly a very arrogant climber.

This discussion may be somewhat of a "trad vs sport/indoor" one, but since the OP specifically talked about indoor walls, then it's fair to discuss within that context

In reply to Neil Williams:

That’d be sweet ‘n’ all, but if I were you, I’d go back to the ones you already climb with and let them know that they’ve taught you a private language which is not at all how the calls in question are used in the big wide world and is known only to you, sarahlizzy and her mate, and, by the sound of it, a few other novices.

Otherwise, frankly, you’re going to be a right menace to traffic if you ever do venture out into company.

On my side, I shall abandon the notion I previously had that anyone who’s been climbing five minutes can be trusted to know roughly the meaning of the four or five basic calls.

In reply to jalien:

>and may I ask what makes you such a good climber?

Did I say I was a good climber? I've never been a good climber. I'm presently a useless climber. I used to be a mediocre climber.

>Is it the grades you have climbed?

It's another, and very dull, debate, but mainly, yes, that was the sense of the word I had in mind.

>Have you never fallen off?

Many times. Do you have a point?

>Are you having more fun than anyone else at the crag?

Oh, grow up. Really. I doubt I'm even having more fun than anyone else on this thread.

>You're certainly a very arrogant climber.

You're so sweet. But tell me, which is more arrogant, to be certain you're right when you are in fact right, or to think your opinions are worth mentioning when in fact they are on a subject of which you are totally ignorant?

>This discussion may be somewhat of a "trad vs sport/indoor" one.

Not really, to be honest. People working a sport route on a top-rope use the terms just the same as I've indicated.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think that's really rude, and not in any way helpful.

In reply to rjacko10:

My "take" on the matter

Watch me! is a way of asking the belayer to watch the leader who needs to give himself reassurance that the belayer is watching him in order to boost his confidence that if he falls off he'll be ok. This is an important ritual in Trad climbing as the confidence thus gained usually means that the worrisome move becomes easier.

Take in! means take the rope in as there's too much slack.

Slack! is a way of asking the belayer to pay out more slack.

is the command Take! a recent invention by sport/indoor climbers who dog routes and rest on gear?

Surely the belayer doesn't need to be warned just before the leader falls off so that they can lock the belay device off?

In reply to cuppatea:

>is the command Take! a recent invention by sport/indoor climbers who dog routes and rest on gear?

Hah! Spoken like a true culm climber!

I'm not sure it's *that* recent, you know. I think climbers have been dogging routes for some time!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Just to support the other side in this argument, I would shout "Take" to mean "I'm going to have a rest on the rope, please take in the slack."

Having "Take" and "Take in" mean two separate things is clearly stupid, given the need for clear communication in climbing situations. Although I can believe this is how they have been used historically.

A quick googling comes up with 3 sites, none of which list "Take" and "Take in" separately.
http://www.castle-climbing.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view...
http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/~arb/durc/climbcalls.html
http://www.mountaindays.net/articles/item/climbing_calls/

In reply to beychae:

I think part of the reason that we're arguing about this is that the two situations where people most often shout "take" is when there's a rope above them - either because they're seconding or toproping or because they've got a clip or gear above them - and they're about to fall off or otherwise weight the rope. In which situation you'd want the belayer to both lock off and take in slack, or given that they can't do both at once, to take in as much slack as they can while being prepared to lock off very very quickly.

In reply to beychae: 'Take' means 'I'm about to sit on the rope, slump on the rope or give up the onsight attempt because I'm not good enough'.

'Take in' means 'There's about three miles of slack here and I'm slightly concerned you've fallen asleep up there'. Usually issued by a second.

I've only been climbing 3 years but the above are 'calls' everyone I climb with use... don't see the issue with this, as quite often it's impossible to hear each other anyway. Common-sense and a feel for the rope is rather more useful than decent hearing IME.

In reply to beychae:

>I would shout "Take" to mean "I'm going to have a rest on the rope, please take in the slack

Not if you were above your last gear you wouldn't.


In theory. In practice I've never heard of anyone having any trouble.

OK, I'm fed up with this. Anyone else want to have a go at telling these idiots?

jcm

In reply to Ramblin dave:

OK, this makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps the issue is that it's context dependent: if I'm above my last gear/clip, I don't have the option of resting on the rope -- all I can do is fall off or downclimb.

The only time it would make sense for "Take" and "Take in" to have different meanings is when seconding / top-roping (and therefore a less fraught situation where communication tends to be easier).

In reply to rjacko10:

Congratulations caller: Best Troll Ever 114 replies and counting and you have held off replying.

Chapeau!

In reply to beychae:

And in that situation, because it is rather less fraught, if there's a load of slack and I can see my belayer but don't want to sit on the rope, it's more likely to be the case of picking said slack up by the knot, waving it at the belayer and/or shouting something like "Stop gabbing, pay attention and take this in, you muppet" or somesuch.



Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:



You have now.

JW

In reply to John Ww:

Clearly

Neil

Take In - I'd be happier if you took in this slack. Whether I'm leading, seconding or top roping.
Take - I have failed, you're holding me now. Whether I'm seconding, top roping or leading next to a shiney clip or a big hairy-roped Moac.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


.


Blimey John, relax and think of your blood pressure

I've been climbing for almost 25 years and I'm really struggling to comprehend your level of obsession over this minor issue.

In reply to andic:

Extra kudos for an amazingly advanced and subtle meta-troll, provoking a flame war about the meaning of 'take' from a post on whether it's OK to grab the top of the wall before clipping.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Tee hee...

In reply to SteveRi:

Ah. I've been wondering about that but haven't got round to trying it yet. I guess it would work something like a rather crap low friction ATC?

In reply to Neil Williams:
Thank you everyone, that was fun.
I almost wanted to join in, but I've never shouted TAKE. It sounds too much like cake and that could lead to some confusion.

In reply to shorts:

Next time I fall off, I might try that if a little peckish...

Neil

In reply to sarahlizzy:

This is the one that seems to contradict your earlier post about touching the chain and then jumping off

In reply to Ciderslider:

I think the lady's point was that she doesn't shout 'take' because in her world that means 'take in', and she doesn't want the slack taking in because she wants a soft catch.

Instead she shouts 'watch me' because in her world that means 'take'.

It's a bit confusing but I guess that's private languages for you.

jcm

In reply to Neil Williams:


Hey Neil I think we are going around in circles here mate - I think we are agreed that if it's safe to do so taking planned controlled falls on a wall or sport crag is a good way to overcome fear of falling.
Obviously this needs to be discussed with your belayer before hand and it's not for everyone.
As for shouting take as you are about to clip - your only gonna do this if it is as safe as it can be and you are wanting to experience a longer (worst case ) fall.
As for belayers with lots of slack out that's just bad/inattentive belaying.

In reply to sarahlizzy: There are two calls that are generally used outside the usual climbing terms.
One is "watch us" which means I'm gonna do a move(s) where I feel like I might fall off and take is usually used when you have actually started to fall/fail - you can also substitute the second for f@ck,a scream or" I'm off." If your belayer can see you and is paying attention he/she will know when you are about to fall/likely to be off.
I can see your use of take, but generally it's used as above.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Hey newbs, sorry to burst your bubble and all, but John is entirely right. Take and take-in mean two different things. That's just how it is, whether you have a pilot's licence or not.

In reply to Neil Williams:


You're not gonna be doing this sort of stuff with a new climbing partner !

In reply to winhill:

Hey I'll have none of that ! Some of us left handers are perfectly ok ..... now where did I leave my left handed axe

In reply to Neil Williams:

Generally less often (but it does happen sometimes) if you are climbing a route at the top of your trad grade you might headpoint it before hand)
Taking practice falls on trad gear is something that I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to do

In reply to sarahlizzy:


??????????????

In reply to Ciderslider:

I have certainly heard of it being done, but it's not something I would consider.

Neil

In reply to Baron Weasel:
Red actually!

In reply to Neil Williams:

FFS surely you're not just gonna climb with someone new and not get to know them/how they climb etc - that's just common sense surely

In reply to andic:

And they're still biting, excellent!

In reply to Neil Williams:

There isn't?

In reply to jalien:



Having looked at his profile you could probably work that one out

You're certainly a very arrogant climber.

No just right I'd say

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Yep, I'm there now. I'm a bit old and left handed and get confused very easily (part of the reason I tend to stick to the normal climbing calls and talk to the person I go climbing with - call me old fashioned

In reply to seankenny:

+1 (very funny)

In reply to rjacko10: Come on let's keep this thread going, I haven't laughed so much for ages

In reply to rjacko10:

This thread is amazing, it should win some sort of award. For what, I'm not sure.

In reply to Ciderslider:

No it doesn't.

In reply to seankenny:

+2

In reply to sarahlizzy: ok whatever you said (bored now)

In reply to Quiddity:

Wow... thank you everyone for all your "contributions".

On a more official note: Any comments that may be found here on this thread are the express opinions of their individual authors. Therefore, I the author of the OP, can not be held responsible for the fact that the minds of the authors of the subsequent posts may be damaged from excessive rock climbing, either due to direct physical impact or the gradual decline in cognitive capacity from chronic addiction.

In reply to andic:

Hah, merely a promising amateur, my trolling claim to fame is a thread with well over a hundred posts and I didn't post at all!