UKC

Not sure this is the right forum but I'll go ahead anyway.

I am coming round to the conclusion that swimming is the aerobic exercise I should be taking. I hope that it would be kinder to my legs than running has been, and I won't have to do battle with the traffic like I would if I took to biking. Also you can guarantee conditions all year round.

So having come to this tumultuous conclusion can UKC give me a beginner's guide to swimming for fitness? I know I'll have to get some goggles and quite possibly a more streamlined pair of swimmers but beyond that I don't have a clue.

Also is it vaguely helpful for climbing? I know it is good for upper body strength so am vaguely hopeful...

In reply to Bobling:

My tip would be to go when the pool is quiet (or at least full of people not moving at snail's pace). I find that for aerobic fitness one has to swim quite fast, but everybody else in the pool is swimming slower.

It's good for the muscles of your shoulder girdle and is supposed to be good for flexibility too. I've been going swimming once a week since April. Translating to climbing, I've not seen much in the way of strength gain but there may have been a gain in endurance.

In reply to Bobling: I use swimming for aerobic exercise, it's very effective, doing intervals is the way ahead. That said swimming is very technical, and I would look at getting some coaching, either off someone who is a competitive swimmer, or go to classes or you could try a coach like this http://createfit.com/

In reply to Bobling: I do a lot of swimming and love it, but I'm (relatively) fast and do a fair distance.
It is very good for fitness as it uses a range of muscles and is less impact as you say than running.
If you compare it to minutes trained, then you need to put a lot more time into it than you would for running.

Depending on your fitness levels its great, but if you're a relative novice I'd start off carefully then build up as in any discipline as you will injure yourself if you push hard.
If you enjoy it after getting 20+ lengths in then I'd also recommend some swim coaching to go to the next level

In reply to dale1968:
I agree.
I have built up to 8 miles in 4-5 sessions .
Not showing off, but the triathletes can't catch me in our pool. I swim continuously, not intervals, although I understand the different benefits. They seem to do intervals with flippers and hand paddles but their technique is crap.
I would pick your favourite stroke, get some lessons in its technique, and slowly build up your fitness. Interval training is fine , but no use if you're wasting your energy and risking injury by crap technique.

In reply to Bobling:
I'm a slow swimmer, and didn't much enjoy it until recently when it finally started to 'click'. I started to swim as I'd entered a few Triathlons but it was always down on my list of priorities (I didn't mind loosing time on a swim so long as I know I was stronger on the cycle/run).

I recently damage a knee ligament which has forced me to stop running for the past two months, but during that time I swam a lot more (3 - 4 times a week, varying speed and distance sessions). Interestingly, when I had my first run again this week, I was shocked that my stamina hadn't dropped at all.

In reply to Bobling:

I've just started swimming again after 20 years out of the pool. My sessions at the moment, in about a 20m pool, are something like the following:

10 freestyle warmup
10 breaststroke warmup
5x4 medium pace
5x2 freestyle fast pace - aiming for 20sec or lower
5x4 breaststroke medium/slow pace
5x2 freestyle fast pace
20 warm down

Takes me around 35-45 minutes depending upon day/crowds etc.

I think it's good if you have an objective. I'm planning to enter Masters comps and want to do a sub 25 sec 50m freestyle.

In reply to Bobling:

I've gone swimming about 120 times in the last year, as well as doing loads of running.

Unless you want to be fast (I do, really), maybe getting the technique right isn't so important if what you want is aerobic fitness? This is me looking on the bright side of my so-so slowness. Just go as hard as you can for as long as you can as often as you can, and keep it up. I don't do intervals, even though I suspect it would be good for aerobic fitness. I do a mind numbing 64 or 80 lengths, usually after an 8 or 10 mile run. I just want to get in, get it over with and get out of there.

I have the cheapest goggles and they are fine.

Your biggest hazards will be 1) people doing back stroke, 2) pairs of people (usually women with large bottoms) who do breast stroke together, very slowly, while chatting. They take up half the pool. 3) Lane Nazis with all the equipment, if you have strayed into one, who like to point out the rules.

My worst fear is that I am in a lane and someone will get in and start doing tumble turns.

In reply to mbh:

You wouldn't want to be in the lane with me then, I almost always tumble turn when going medium/fast paced.

In reply to SARS:

Absolutely not. I'd take one look and steer well clear!

In reply to mbh:

Just out of interest, what's the problem with them?

In reply to SARS:

Nothing at all, of course. It just suggests that I have been joined by someone who is frighteningly fast who will be up behind me in no time, so that I should maybe move back over to the free-for-all of the non-laned bit of the pool.

In reply to mbh:

I see.

Bobling, re advice for beginners. As alluded to above, the key to swimming well is technique. I swam competitively between the ages of 6 and 12 at a high level - in the top 2 for the country I grew up in. My only rival went on to swim for the Australian national team. The reason I can go back into the pool after 20 years out and still burn off everyone is purely technique.

So my advice is if you are a beginner and want to swim well get a good coach. I think that it will also help your fitness since with good technique you can push yourself harder.

In reply to SARS:
>The reason I can go back into the pool after 20 years out and still burn off everyone is purely technique.


I hate you (in the nicest possible way....)

Struggling triathlete swimmer....

(actually that's not quite fair on me, I am mid pack, but have definitely plateaued until I refine my stroke further.)

In reply to ClimberEd:

This is an interesting and timely thread since I just joined a gym about 2 weeks ago expressly to start swimming again as I had started to become a bit flabby around the waist. Remarkably I can already see the positive effects of my five pool sessions.

My main worry is that this new found enthusiasm for the sport disappears quickly as doing lengths starts to become routine... hence I'm considering joining a club and entering comps.

In reply to ClimberEd:

I am definitely lower pack. Perhaps, together, we make a six pack?

It is astonishing how much difference technique appears to make with swimming. Much more so than with running.

In reply to Bobling:

Thanks for the responses everyone. My aim would be to burn some of the calories my chocolate addiction attracts and to stop the spread of middle aged erm spread. Going on this thinking then mostly any exercise is better than none!

I'm a bit worried about JamButty's comment that I'd need to do more time in the pool than when running, as I was hoping that a ten minute drive to the pool, half hour in the pool and then ten minute drive home would give me a good exercise and I'd be home and hosed in under an hour!

Does anyone have some sort of handy clicker for counting lengths? I find my mind turns to jelly at about 7 and I start losing count!

In reply to Bobling:

My honest opinion is that doing tons of slow paced lengths without stopping won't make a huge impact on your fitness. Witness the larger sized folk who swim weekly and don't seem to lose weight.

To increase fitness you need to push yourself. I would aim for, and in fact do, warm-up/fast medium lengths/warm down. After warming up go for short number of lengths at faster paces.

If you do that then 30-40min should be plenty of time.

In reply to Bobling: http://www.swimovate.com/

In reply to Bobling:

You can get watches that count the number of lengths, number of strokes per length, cadence of strokes, pace etc. I use the garmin 910xt as I use it for biking, running, skiing etc, but I think garmin do a swim dedicated one, other companies do the too. Make it much easier to count distance, I used to be able to count lengths, now I just lose count.

In reply to Bobling:

There are people at my pool who swim more than me (at least, they are there every time I go and keep going for as long as I do) and faster than me but who are very rotund. I don't see runners who run more than me that are fatter than me.

Running is cheaper and packs more of an energy punch per minute. You (maybe) can do it from your house without the 10 minute drive each way. But, if swimming is what you can do, do it. It doesn't hurt nearly as much as running and exercises more than just the legs.

In reply to sharpie530:

I lose count too. But who cares, really? Sometimes, I just close my world down, like I do when running a long way or up a big hill, and focus on the next round number. Sometimes, I relive a run I have just done and think of each 8 lengths as a mile of my last route.

Mostly, I focus on the positive "That is one length I don't have to so again", again and again.

In reply to SARS:

I find I naturally try to challenge myself and swim as fast as I can, like with my running. I'd hope that a good few lengths at as fast as I could manage would deal with some flab and even bring back some sort of muscle tone in my upper body!

Lap-counter: sexy watch is sexy watch but I was hoping for something a bit lower tech (and cheaper!).

In reply to Bobling:

Perhaps I should have called the thread "Swimming to keep the weight off" as it seems this is what I'm really after. So is there anyone out there who does this?

In reply to Bobling:

Exactly why I started swimming again.... it's an excellent way to get fit.

Re. lap counter - honestly think it's pretty unnecessary.

In reply to Bobling:

I use one of these: http://www.sportcount-europe.co.uk/sportcount.php for counting lengths. Also tells you time per length, total time and average length time. It goes on your finger and you just click it with your thumb each length. The watches Dale mentions seem far more advanced with motion sensors, but the price reflects this, depends how much you want to spend.

I am an average triathlete and can hammer the lengths without seeing much improvement, my swimming is in a rut. So I would definitely agree with those that say get a few lessons and also mix the training up a bit. Neither of which I have been doing!!

I think swimming only can be hard going in terms of motivation - unless you are competing; get yourself a bike as well and you'll love it. The advantage of doing different activities is it keeps it varied, and also if you are injured and can't do one, you can usually still get some exercise doing the other.

In reply to SARS:

Yeah I know - and trying to remember what lap you are on frequently occupies me most of the next lap! I'd just like to be able to to tap something and then forget sometimes, perhaps the classic cord with ten knots might work.

In reply to SARS:

It is I suppose, I just wanted to see an improvement, and same as Bob I lost count nearly everytime and could never get an accurate comparison.

In reply to Paul035:

And lo - that looks like exactly the kind of thing I'm after. Cheers.

In reply to Bobling:

Lastly:

Does anyone who wears glasses use prescription goggles? Seems like overkill but to be able to see the clock would be quite nice.

Do I have to wear speedos or is there some half way house between the flapp shorts I currently have and budgie smugglers?

Thanks to UKC for sensible answers and not a hint of a flame war!

In reply to Bobling:

I wear contacts and goggles.

And yes, you can get square leg speedos. Like lycra but shorter.

In reply to Skol: sorry are you saying that you can now swim 8 miles in just 5 sessions or is this an accumulation of distance over the 5 sessions.
I reckon I am an average-good swimmer and it takes me about an hour per 2 miles. That is when I get out as I have had enough. If you state you do 8 miles that would take 4 hours by my reckoning. You are either an olympiam or I have misunderstood your post. Also to claim you can swim 8 miles after 5 sessions of training sounds a little far fetched. Fair play if true but it sounds dubious. Also not all triathletes do paddle and fin intervals, and I would bet that you can't catch them in a triathlon which is what they are training for. And regular swimming 8 milers will risk injury and lead to crap technique.

In reply to SARS:

I'd definitely recommend joining a club. There's no way I'd push myself as hard if I was training on my own and i find it almost impossible to train in a public session. I managed to beat the times I set as an 11 year old after 6 months back at training this year so that was nice

In reply to Bobling: I have been competitive swimming for 12 years and coaching competitive swimmers for 5.

There is no doubt that to get the most from any form of training you will have to try hard and spending time/money improving your technique will be well worth it.

Having said that, to simply improve your "fitness" is relatively simple and with some basic interval sets you will find that your core and upper body strength will drastically improve (very transferable to the male style of climbing).

For a generalised and simple 30-40 minute session, which can be tweaked very easily I would suggest the following:

7 mins of warm up of rotary strokes (front or back) this should be at a pace where you don't get tired, 2 mins of this can be kick (with a float)
6*2 lengths 75% effort 20 seconds rest after each
2 mins of easy (warm up pace) swimming
8*1 length 80-85% 10 seconds rest after each
3mins of easy swimming
4*4 lengths 70% effort (this should be faster than your warm up pace) 30-40 seconds rest after each
Swim down with rotary strokes for 5-10 minutes

This will probably take you a lot longer than 30-40 minutes depending on your current level. So cut out the 4*4 and cut the 6 to 4*2 and the 8 to 6*1 if need be, but try not to cut the warm down and don't scrimp on the effort.

This will build your aerobic capacity (allowing you to swim further and for longer), whilst increasing your speed endurance with a small amount of anaerobic capacity work.

To build on this, cut the rest time down (no more than half), try to be consistent (same time spent for each length on the 8*1) and introduce pyramid sets.

Enjoy!

In reply to SARS:

Also google 'jammers', which are knee length lycra shorts. Very populawar and mostly flatrering. Be aware that most competition style swimwear id sized true to inches, unlike mostmen's clothes, where if you habe a 32" waist you by the 30 or it falls down. Measure 32, buy 32...

My brother in law uses prescription gogglesvery happily. Better than using contacts... He is prone to losing them though.

My key set is 100s with about 10 seconds rest... Enough for partial recovery, but ni more.


I'm hoping to get to 5:15 or even 5:00 for a 400m, but simply don't swim enough to do it atm...

In reply to nicjbuk:

He means 8 miles split over 5 sessions, so just under 2 miles a session. 3000m or 120 lengths in a 25m pool...

In reply to Ragingpossum:
>
Really? In any measurable way, apart from becoming better at swimming? Better than structured climbing/body weight exercise/weights?

In reply to SARS:

Have to kind of agree with this. I was a decent swimmer (county level in the UK) so not at SARS level, but not bad, in my youth, and I tend to find that on the rare occasions that I get back in the pool I can slip back into quite decent technique and speed relatively rapidly.

However there's quite a lot of good tutorials on the net. Yes, a coach is better, but unless you want to get fast for a particular reason I personally wouldn't bother.

When I got back into swimming after 20 years off I did kinda have a look at what constituted a good time for my age group, gender, and did wonder in a half-hearted way whether I might get back into competition. Jeez, no. Some people take it far too seriously. I've had a life that constituted pretty much swimming, school and sleep before, and I'd rather not get so single minded again.

In reply to Bobling:

Ditto on the technique, swam competitively as a kid (though hated the competitive aspect of it) and can now happily jump back in to a pool without swimming for years and easily keep up with the fast lane.

I'm wanting to get back in to it too, but I feel my current system of 10*Crawl, 10*Breaststroke repeated 4 times probably isn't the best way of training. I'll have to try a couple of the suggestions here.

In reply to Kieran_John:

The last set I did (supposedly a maintenance session)

Warm up
200m Choice
400m (75 FC 25 BC/BS)
200m IM Drill/Kick

Main Set
100m IM x 4 off 2:00, getting faster each time, max final 100
50m choice recovery
100m FC x 4 off 1:45, getting faster each time, max final 100
50m choice recovery
100 Form x 3 off 2:00, getting faster each time, max final 100
50m choice recovery
50m FC Kick x 3 off 80s, getting faster each time, max final 100
50m recovery
25m sprints IM order off 35s

Swim down

In reply to Bobling: Swim 3 times per week, my adive would be to go buy a kickboard, and a pull buoy. I think the main problem people have with swimming is that they just go up and down for an hour or so, which is SOOOOO DULL. DO NOT DO THIS!

To start with I would time yourself over 50 and then 100m this will give you some idea of your pace. (if you let us know what time you get then we can help you a bit more) Then use the clock (the one with red and blue hands) to help you keep your pace right throughout sessions, so before getting in write down your session and make a note of the time your going to do each 50/100/200 in. Also remember to keep your breathing the same throughout, ie front crawl breath every 3.

Some example sessions: a pyramid session (same distances but increasing then decreasing speed) start with 4x50 then 2x100 then 1x200 then back down. (vary distance with ability)

Build, 4x 50s building the speed with number 4 max effort.
and also 7x 200 building by 5 secs each time first one pb+ 35.

Max Heart Rate (wanna to die- try this one, its a remedy for chunder) 20x100 10x100 steady, 10x100 max with a turnaround time of pb +30)

Pull- do some 200s just using arms, use the pull buoy between your legs as a float.

"under-over" -lung capacity- 50s swim as far as you can underwater, then finish the 50 above water swimming normally.

Kick, 75s are the best distances to kick, kick is super hard to get going aerobically without going stupidly slowly. So do a set of maybe (4x75)x3 on breast, front and back. (if you want to do fly do it on your back)

Finally don't do fly, if you can swim fly then you can't swim it slowly, unlike other strokes if you slow it down it just gets harder. Trying to train by swimming fly will just destroy you before you get any real distance down. (which is certain circumstance may be what you want)

Buy good goggles, its worth checking a good fit, they should almost be able to stay on without having the strap round your head. And for swimmers, I use "jammers" which are slightly less Daniel Craig esque than other styles

Yes, it is dull, but you can think of other things while doing it and it depends how swimming fits in to your life and why you are doing it. All these interval programmes sound terribly "busy" to me, however good they may be for me. My head is often full of the busy day ahead, and while just going up and down you can push hard. I normally end the mile or mile and a quarter that I do with my heart pounding and out of breath. You still get nice toned shoulders and upper body this way, without the bulk and tattoos that seem to come with weight lifting. I have not got much faster over the last year. I'd like to be, but I don't need to be. But then, swimming isn't my main aerobic exercise. If it was, maybe I would mix things up a bit more.
>
I always buy the cheapest that they sell at the pool. They keep the water out and don't break the bank when I leave them behind in the cubicle. What else would fancy goggles do for me?

In reply to mbh:
Don't agree with the dullness. You either enjoy it or you don't. I sort my day out when I'm swimming, and competing with other swimmers in the lanes is fun. I suppose it helps if you're a bit of a loner, but I have a half decent chat with people at rests.
The nice toned ladies add interest too, which makes buying good goggles that don't mist up worthwhile . You can get good mirrored ones from proswimwear for 12£
Skol

In reply to Totally-Normal:

I appreciate the time taken to write this response but I've got complete jargon overload, Idongettit. What does this mean "start with 4x50 then 2x100 then 1x200 then back down. (vary distance with ability) " Isn't that just the same distances? what am I missing?

In reply to Skol:

Classy : ) Now what's the website?

In reply to Bobling:

www.proswimwear.co.uk/

Forget technique and bilateral breathing.
I guarantee that if there's a hotty you will breathe to that side!:-! How wrong is that?
Skol

In reply to Bobling:

I think TN means if you can't manage 4x50 then do say 4x25 (if your pool is 25m).

4x50 means 50m followed by a rest then another 50m etc. 2x100 means 100m without rest (ie not stopping) followed by a rest and then another 100m.

In reply to Bobling: Sorry Bobling, years of reading swimming sessions using the same format means that I forget it probably means absolutely jack all to everyone else. SARS has hit the nail on the head, but if there is anything else youdontget then let us know and Ill try re word it for those who don't permanently smell of chlorine

"(same distances but increasing then decreasing speed)"

I made a mistake here what I meant to write was that the pyramid session is increasing the distance and not necessarily the speed. Equally you can also do a pyramid set with the same distance and change the speed.

Pb means personal best time.

In reply to Totally-Normal: There must be something on the water as I've just started swimming again after a lay off. Building strength with as many 100m, 10sec rest as I can fit in 30min.

One question. What is the advantage of pyramid sessions over a bunch of 100m laps or swimming steady for the session? Are you looking to keep the same length times or push harder depending on where you are in the pyramid?

In reply to Bobling: Only other thing I'd add to drills is doing hypoxic breathing on front crawl, really improves your lung capacity and stamina.

First 50m breathe every 2 strokes, second 50m 3 strokes, 3rd 4 strokes, usually up to 7 or 8 then drop back down.
You get a great feeling as you ramp back down, thinking breathing every 5 strokes is easy.

In reply to nw: Yes, although I would imagine that this is more of the case for cases of good technique. With Frontcrawl in particular and the rest of the strokes your forearms and lats will be worked in particular (speed endurance training here) as there development is crucial to adding power to the stroke. Backstroke will always focus on the shoulders more whereas breaststroke and fly will work the pecs more than others.

Your core will always be working as you are constantly holding yourself in position (form) within the water (you don't tend to notice this) and as your form changes with different parts of the stroke. Not to mention the power transfer from your upper body to your lower and back.

Tumble turns are also a big one for core development.

An extreme example, but just look at the top swimmers and how their bodies are shaped.

In relation to structured climbing training. It has always been said that the best way of practicing something is to do it, so I would be quite confident in saying that providing it is structured then climbing would be better.

Having said that, cross training is very important and can really help reduce the risks of injury (excluding perhaps fingers) and swimming will be better for improving your lactic threshold I would imagine.

Weights wise, you are unlikely to improve your max power in swimming more than you would with weight training but you will probably improve your power endurance more effectively by swimming than weight training (again reliant on a proper training regime).

If you want a measurable way, pull ups can be a really good test for generable upper body strength (use an assist machine if necessary) . Try and do your max amount of continuous reps on 3 separate occasions and then try again in 3-6 months time after following a swimming training regime.

In reply to Bobling:

Get yourself out in the sea - much nicer than lane swimming in an overheated, over chlorinated and noisy public pool. With regular trips you'll be able to swim half an our wet suit free in late June until September.

If you can find the right stretch of river you can get yourself a free "infinity pool" as well and they warm up enough in summer that you can swim wetsuit free for we'll over an hour...

In reply to Loughan:

some of the time the aim would be to keep the same length times (even similar number of strokes per length if you're feeling mega keen) Although naturally you probably won't manage it, if you do then your're probably not going fast enough to begin with. (Although take care not to go too fast, you shouldn't be sprinting, otherwise you'll end up with legs like bricks due to lactic) I guess its a way of just challenging your body to give just a little bit more. Eventually you'll be able to push yourself for longer. I think this is probably one of the best things you'll be able to get out of swimming. Having said that sometimes I dont bother with all that and just swim at whatever pace im feeling like to just keep myself ticking over.

Sure you can go and do a shed load of 100s, and whilst aerobically its probably decent training, if you do it right, but I find I tend to settle into a rhythm, get bored and slack off, even if I don't mean to- its just a subconscious thing. If you want to do some low intensity aerobic stuff then a maybe swim 3 400m with good rests in between each should do you fine. My concern with the 100s is that by trying as many as you can you'll probably be anaerobic, which is really easy to train, seeing as your not breathing as often as say running. Whilst you may want to train like this and build lactic tolerance, I guess you want to "swim for fitness" so should be looking at more aerobic stuff.

In reply to wintertree:


putting on my other hat....

I love swimming in the sea...
...
- but do know the local conditions, where is safe and where isn't, tides, and which beaches have clean water,
- don't do it alone and strongly consider using lifeguarded beaches when the lifeguards are there, if you can (sometimes not easy for early morning swims)
- try to swim parallel to the shore in waist or slightly deeper water, rather than just heading straight out to sea.

Rivers can more dangerous that the sea: the water is less bouyant, more likely to have debris floating in it, are often not tested for bathing water quality, and often have some runoff from farming in :-/, fresh water also is more deadly if you do inhale it than sea water - you need less of it to kill you, but there is less chance of wave action causing you problems...

Having said that, it is remarkably safe as an activity: in 2011, only 12 swimmers died in or at sea or in harbours and only 17 in rivers and other inland waterways and 10 died in swimming pools, so don't let it put you off doing it, but do take precautions.

If you see someone in difficulty - call 999 and call the coastguard - unless you are well trained and can risk assess the situation well. More often than not, the rescuers are the ones who get into difficulty rather than the original casualty.



djb

In reply to Ragingpossum:
>

If I had 3 months to spare, I would take you up on that! I find it hard to believe there is much carry over, if we are talking about someone who otherwise doesn't train pull ups. I am no expert on swimming but surely top swimmers spend a reasonable amount of time in the gym, which is partly responsible for their physique?

In reply to Bobling:
Hey hey,

I know this is in completely a different direction to what you asked and forgive me for intruding if it's not helpful.

However I was recommended rowing for most of the reasons that you put above, it's aerobic, helps to build muscles useful in climbing (back/legs etc) and since have purchased a rowing machine for home use you can get a good exercise done in half an hour from home (especially if doing an interval inspired session) and I've noticed an improvement in climbing (this might just be because i lost a stone though).

Personally I have no idea about swimming i was warned off it at uni by my physio because I have lax shoulder joints, just sharing experience.

Once again sorry if it's completely off topic!

In reply to Totally-Normal:
Hi totally,
My session is a non stop session of 128 lengths in a 25m pool.
I generally do this in an hour. The triathletes do drills, and I pick up my pace so that they do not catch me, slowing down to a normal pace when they stop.

Which is better? My session or theres?

I've also tried tumbling which I'm reasonable at, but don't seem to be able to swim as hard due to the hypoxia from the tumble. When I tumble the triathletes gain on me( they're not tumbling). Have other people found this, or is it my poor tumble technique.
There's 2 blokes of my age 43, who are swimming club trained and they are fluid with the turns and catch be every 10 lengths or so.

On open water, there is the added risk of Weils disease which I have seen people get. I really wouldn't want that .
Any advice gratefully received
Skol

In reply to Skol:

By drills, do you mean weird looking strokes that for example may have bits with just swimming with one arm? This is my understanding of drills, which is a shortening of "technique drills". They are training to win a race over a distance, which requires training which is naturally different to training for fitness. This will mean they focus on technique as they aim to be as efficient as possible with each stroke. For fitness training in someways having a less efficient stroke might actually mean you might actually train harder. So in summary I can't really say yours' is better or worse as, I assume, you are looking to gain fitness where as they are training to win.

With your tumbling, without seeing you swim I can only guess what you are struggling with but it here are a few pointers.

1) The tumble- the last stroke before a tumble is exactly like a normal stoke bringing you forearm from pointing horizontally to vertically, however you allow your head and body to follow through tucking you knees in. You should tumble before you would be able to touch the wall.

2) when your feet touch the wall you should be on your back. plant your feet slightly off vertical and as you push off lock the hands above your head (known as the streamlined position) and rotate your body onto your front once you have pushed off.

3) fly kick- once you have pushed off you use about 3 butterfly leg kicks to keep up your momentum. For a beginner doing tumbles we say you should come up at about the flags (5m out)

Throughout all this you need to try and stay relaxed, it will help with that feeling of running out of air. Try a few push offs holding the streamlined position, you'll be amazed how far you can actually go and how long you can actually hold your breath for. This should help physiologically with it.

Try doing it in "slow motion" first it'll help you get your head round each part of the turn.

Finally your session is 3K+ in an hour which is really good going. For general swimming for fitness I wouldn't be looking to really go above doing anymore than that.

Hope some of that helps, you can always look up some videos on youtube which will probably be way more helpful than my bumbling attempts to describe a tumble.

In reply to Skol:

Personally 125 non stop would drive me mad. I would find it incredibly boring.

There's mixed research out there but evidence does seem to be growing that suggests short but quick intervals in general is better for your fitness than long slow paced trudges.

What sort of drills do the triathletes do?

In reply to Totally-Normal:
Thanks Totally,
It's the breathing that's catching me out
I take a breath as I go over the black line, ? 3m, then tumble.
I'm tucking ok, but am pushing off and turning over at the same time. This hurts my back. The move is a bit gymnastic for me . I do get beyond the flags though with my hands. When I come up , I'm struggling for breath, and find I can't swim the length as hard, and my style goes pear shaped.
I think I get a better , harder swim by touching and turning, so don't know whether to bin them or persevere .

in reply to SARS / Totally
I understand that I am working endurance more than improving speed over a length , but Im not trying to do this anyway as I don't race.
The tris are doing sets off a card. 16x 25, 8'x 25, 4 x 25 freestyle , sometimes with paddles/flippers or both. One of them does a funny ' scull' with hands in the water.
They don't seem to make any gains on me but are clearly fit lads and would lash me out of the pool?
The other 2 lads who beat me though don't seem too much quicker through the swimming portion but their turns are spot on. They do 40 lengths or so them kick board?

Maybe it's each to their own, but I like the challenge of non stop and racing whoever in between. I don't get bored , swimming is ace!
Skol

In reply to wintertree:

/Aussie accent on

Sharks mate. Bloody sharks everywhere.

/Aussie accent off

Nice idea but I'm not close enough to the sea for this, and part of the idea is to get efficient use of time available so I can do the rest of the chores that raising a young family seems to have reduced my life to! I am close to a swimmable stretch of the Avon though so will bear this in mind.

In reply to Taer:
Cheers for that, nice thought but I spent too many hours in my youth staring at the readout of an ergo, it's an option if swimming doesn't work out though!

In reply to Bobling:
I'm in the same boat with the kids, mate.
I find its best to find a pool that opens early am, then it's done and the rest of the evening is kids time. The pool I go to opens at 5.30 3 times a week for the swimming club, so I'm done and out by 7 at the latest. The evening sessions don't start till 7.30 and have lost the will to live by then.
Skol

In reply to Bobling:

Yeah having done a season of rowing eights quite recently, I know that I prefer the pool to the erg anytime.

In reply to JamButty:

I really don't get this... ?? I can't think of any other aerobic sport where holding your breath would be seen as a good training technique.

In reply to Skol: Bin em, no point starting a length already cream crackered. Plus if your out of breath then as I keep saying you'll go anaerobic. If you like the challenge of racing others, there is no one better to race than yourself, start making a note of times for distances or sets then try and beat them. You get the feeling of beating something and you get fitter -its a win win. Some ideas-

do 8 200s max, off 3.45 (that means the time between starting one 200 and starting the next is 3.45, so if you do it in 2.45 you get 1 minutes rest)

See how many 50s you can do, start going off 55 then reduce it by 1s each time. My current best is I can get down to the 32s 50 then Im just gone, like literally I'm about to board the chunderbus.

This isn't something I do but I'm thinking you could do your non stop, but throw in a 100m max every 500m or so. See if you can match the first and last time.

Ignore the triathletes, not to be negative but if they're not being coached doing silly sculling won't improve their stroke much. The purpose is to reduce the amount of slip at the front of the stroke, (yes I know jargon, basically it is to do with how much water you move with each stroke). But doing the odd bit now and then is going to do precisely f'all.

In reply to Doghouse: The benefit of it is lung capacity. You are most streamlined when you head is facing forward (i.e not breathing) so the less you breath, the faster you can go. Its not uncommon for a swimmer to breath once or maybe twice over a 50m sprint.

In reply to nw: Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that someone will go from not being able to do 1 pull up to say being able to do 10 in a row but if you isolated it by only doing swimming training then you would see an improvement, ceteris paribus.

Top swimmers will of course do some weight training like in most sports and naturally their rather extreme physiques will be in part to due to that. Most decent swimming clubs will start there serious swimmers doing land training from around 13 upwards (body weight only at that age).

In reply to mbh:


Do you mean door-to-door, or just for the duration of the exercise? My understanding was that swimming used much more energy than running, partly because there's so much more friction to overcome, and partly because humans are so efficient at moving on their legs after so many years of doing it.

In reply to Doghouse:

How many other aerobic sports are there where you spend most of the time with you face in a hostile liquid?

I think the breathing drill seem like a good idea - I try to swim slowly and calmly with many strokes per breath, but I quickly find that I have to go faster to get back round to breathing in, which means I get more out of breath, so have to try to go faster to breathe more quickly. It seems like a vicious cycle

In reply to nufkin:

I mean that running requires more energy per unit time than swimming does, not per unit distance. I don`t have access to the figures for swimming right now, but running requires about 100 kcal per mile, more or less independent of your speed, so that even at a jog you can get through 500 kcal per hour while running; and in the high hundreds per hour if you run faster. I don`t think swimming approaches that (unless perhaps for really fast types who are mentally and physically able to swim two miles in an hour). While the drag from the waves you create etc may be greater, the water also supports you more than the air does, which accounts at least in part for the difference, I suppose.

You could get through 300 kcal in half an hour at a slow jog. I bet (but I don`t know for sure) that it would take a good hour to use up that much energy at the slow swim that the same person might do.

As for running being cheaper; that actually depends how much running you do. It costs me 20 quid a month direct debit to go swimming. Plus cheap trunks and the cheap goggles I leave behind in the cublcles every now and then. I always buy the same running shoes, at about 70 pounds; including postage, from amazon. For this I have to buy last year;s model and not be fussy about the color. I am naughty ( ie mean) and change my shoes every 800 miles pr sp. So they cost about 9p or 10p per mile. At 50 miles per week, running is just as expensive as swimming. That would still be true if I ran half as much and changed the shoes as often as the websites say I should. If you get all the summer/winter/ darkness gear too all at once the cost mounts even more, but over the years you tend to accumulate this stuff and the more I run, the less I care what I look like.

In reply to mbh: so 300 kcal per half hour actual slow jogging, an hour for 300 kcal worth of slow swimming, I guess. Then you have to add the travel time to the pool and back. But if want to/must travel to where you run from, rather than go from your house, the travel times might even out. The other thing with running is that you have more flexibility about when you do it if your pool, like mine, is quite restrictive about when you can do length swimming.

In reply to all:

Our coach is going on holiday and I'm devising a 1 hour set in a couple of weeks.

Anyone got any interesting suggestions?

In reply to mbh: couple of extra points about energy expenditure -

- a normal sized decent swimmer will burn approx 800 calories/hour purely through exercise (not counting heat loss), so pretty directly comparable to running at the same level of proficiency

- the bigger cause of energy expenditure in swimming is loss of heat through water which is not accounted for in calorie expenditure type tables for sports, approximately 1000 calories/hour extra in an average heated indoor pool, so even a beginner swimmer will be burning off more calories swimming (or just hanging out up to their neck in the pool!) than running even at a high level

In reply to Totally-Normal: for a 50m sprint you are running on anaerobic after a few seconds anyway, so no benefit to slowing down the stroke in order to breathe. it's not about streamlining, but increasing stroke rate

In reply to Bobling: ugh, swimming, dullest of the dull.

In reply to fred_stone: - the bigger cause of energy expenditure in swimming is loss of heat through water which is not accounted for in calorie expenditure type tables for sports, approximately 1000 calories/hour extra in an average heated indoor pool, so even a beginner swimmer will be burning off more calories swimming (or just hanging out up to their neck in the pool!) than running even at a high level

That is interesting.
The pool I do my morning swim in takes 100m just to get warm, but after 2 miles I get out and sweat, a lot, so don't think much about it.
Conversely, I spent 2 hours in the pool with my daughter today, just floating about and treading water to keep warm, so I can see reasoning in that.
Skol

In reply to ebygomm: Get them to do a full length of the pool ether width / length ways under the water, we did it for beach lifeguard training

In reply to Skol: sure & either way you're losing heat at about 25x what you would out of the water, so a huge energy expenditure

In reply to fred_stone:

1000 calories extra for heat??? Are you sure?

I'm a pretty proficient swimmer and right now doing around 1.7km-2km per work out - which takes me around 35-45 min depending on what type of training I'm doing (ie recovery swim or intervals). I guessed that I was burning around 600cal, but by your estimate it's more like 2000... seems high to me.

In reply to SARS:

I'm pretty sure that isn't right.

The calories expended in moving your muscles for swimming are producing heat as a by product. In a pool if anyone is finding they need extra energy to keep warm they're obviously not swimming hard enough.

In reply to ebygomm:

Yeah I'm not sure what the right answer. What I do know for sure is that I can push myself much harder swimming than I can running - and as a result it's having a much better impact on my body shape than running ever did (been running a lot the last couple of years). Also it works out the upper body whereas running doesn't at all.

So overall whatever the answer, glad I got back into it.

In reply to SARS:
Agreed. Look at swimmers bodies compared to runners/cyclists.
Overall it's a much more thorough workout as it exercises more muscle groups. The only downside is that it's non weight bearing, so probably won't fend off osteoporosis in some?

In reply to ebygomm:
Fully agreed. Strangely I was thinking in the pool today , how much energy am I expending just being in there treading water. But, it's not the North Sea and was perhaps 24' c.

In reply to fred_stone:

For the 800 calories, how far do you suppose one is swimming in an hour to get through that?

1000 cqlories an hour just through heat loss sounds like a good deal. It`s a lot of cake. I can run 10 miles, which is hard work, or sit in a heated pool for an hour and get the same number of cake credits? Having done four ten mile runs in the last four days, I feel wasted, and now demoralized. I should just have sat in the pool and read a book.

Seriously, 1000 calories an hour extra heat loss is an additional rate of heat loss of about 1% over our resting rate of heat loss. This, despite the surface/fluid temperature difference being halved. How outside the normal range of variation is this, do you know

In reply to SARS: at your level 2k of intervals, drills etc. is probably about 45 minutes right... ? so add on say 700 extra expended depending on temp of pool, your size etc. so 1300 in total might be a rough estimate for a decent swim workout that takes 45m. 2000 would be a lot, but not impossible - i'm guessing most people remember michael phelp's huge pre olympics diet - 9,000 calories a day when he was training hard?

ebygomm: sorry i'm not quite following. you finish a hard swim & you feel warm - that doesn't mean your muscles are "holding" onto heat that would otherwise be lost, or that by being warm you are somehow immune to losing heat to water. in water you are dissipating heat (whether you feel hot or cold) at 25 times your normal rate. just because you still feel hot doesn't mean that you are not losing heat at a much higher rate than you might think.

In reply to SARS: sorry - repeated how long you took for the swim, rushing through things a bit...

by the way aiming for sub 25s for 50m = more than pretty proficient!

In reply to fred_stone:

I'm sure you're losing heat at a much higher rate than in air, but if that's all excess heat produced through physical exertion you're not having to expend any extra energy to stay warm.

In reply to fred_stone:
Mmm. You are talking me around a bit, and I can see the logic. Are the figures that swimming burns approx 200 cal/ 20 mins at a good pace, taking into account heat expenditure to the water, comparable with running in the cold, as opposed to our normal summer?

In reply to Skol:

Energy expenditure while running is only weakly dependent on speed, apparently. If a good pace is, say, 8 minutes a mile (faster than jiggers, slow for IainRUK), then you would get through about 250 cal per 20 minutes.

In reply to ebygomm: ah, i see what you mean now. but there is no difference between "excess" heat vs normal body temperature in terms of the thermal exchange going on, it all just equals energy being pulled away from you at 25x the normal rate. to feel warm in cool water, you are simply expending more energy than you would to feel that same level of warmth otherwise. i'm not sure whether the warmth you experience is also just relative to the cool of the water, and is actually somewhat lower than you might expect.

gauging your own temperature in the water can be quite deceiving - i spent a long day in water heated to just 1 degree below body temperature once (in a diving tower) and you end up shivering bitterly in water that feels really warm.

beyond this there are lots of very complex things happening with vasoconstriction, different adipose tissues etc. that would need a much better knowledge than mine!

In reply to fred_stone:

I can believe this 25x factor, despite the lower temperature difference if we are in a pool, since the solid/liquid thermal surface resistance could well be 10s of times lower than the solid/ air surface resistance.

But, if this means 25 times the normal rate of energy expenditure just by sitting around in a pool, or one day's worth of food excess absolved by sitting in the shallow end for an hour I struggle to believe it. Why aren't the shallow ends full of lazy people, sitting on their fat arses, waiting for the weight loss, if this rate of heat loss and thus weight loss were real? Why don't Weight watchers hold their meetings at pools? Am I missing something, or do you think something more complex is going on?

In reply to mbh:

There's certainly some people at pools I've swum in that seem to be under the impression that an hours chat whilst stood in the shallow end constitutes exercise

In reply to fred_stone:

I see. Makes sense I guess. Might explain how I've managed to lose so much weight in the past couple of weeks!

In reply to fred_stone:


I just plain don't believe that number - assuming that you mean 1000kcal/hour for heating (aka "non shivering thermogenesis").

Let's say I float in a pool for an hour, not swimming. To be able to convert those kcal into heat I would need to consume as much oxygen as if I was running at 1000kcal/hour which for me is ~7.5mph. I can tell you now that I don't - in water from 21oC to 28oC I can float around for an hour breathing at a normal rate, so that rules out more than 200 kcal/hour of thermogensis (that being perhaps my base metabolism supported by my normal breathing). In reality, as I remain conscious and normally functioning, most of that oxygen must be going to it's usual place and not heating.

If I start swimming actively in water > 27oC I get to hot...

In reply to wintertree: you don't have to believe it but that doesn't change that it's true. it's basic laws of physics, not hearsay.

1 hour in a medium 10 degrees colder than your 37 degree body, losing heat at 25x normal rate = a lot of energy expended regardless of whether you feel hot or not.

since when was breathing rate an indication of thermogenesis?

if you were only using 200 kcal/hour to maintain your body temperature in 27 degree water, you would have to be cold blooded.

In reply to Bobling: anyway, sorry to hijack your thread - hope you are getting on well in the pool and enjoying yourself!

In reply to fred_stone:

I think your numbers are way off, do you want to set out your calculation.

In reply to The New NickB:

I don't get what he is saying either. Other than shivering, your body doesn't suddenly up energy output to keep warm. This is why we need warm clothes in winter, and also why we swim in warm water. If we swam in cold water (say 7C, which is fine for running) we would simply get hyperthermic due to the much greater convective heat loss in water than air.

In reply to MG:

We do use energy to stay warm, but I think it is much more complex than Fred thinks and his figures are out by a huge margin.

In reply to fred_stone:


Really? Physiology is basic laws of Physics? Maybe at the bottom of a very complex set of relationships... For example heat loss in cold water is very different when floating (mammalian dive reflex claws blood inwards to conserve heat) or swimming (blood pumped through muscles looses heat to the water like mad).


Since thermogenesis occurred via the oxidation of hydrocarbon molecules by the application of... oxygen, which comes from... breathing.

Show me someone who can increase their energy conversion via oxidation at a rate 1000kcal/hour without increasing their breathing significantly above normal and I will show you someone who violates some basic laws of Physics. That is perhaps 10x your average calorie burn rate and 1.0 to 1.5x the rate associated with moderate to heavy sustained exercise.

To insist that that is being consumed *on top* of the requirement for exercise is simply daft. It doesn't matter what the calories do (motion, heat) they require the same amount of oxygen, and therefore breathing, to convert. Okay, they could be coming anaerobically, but if someone did 1000kcal/hour that way the lactic acid would probably dissolve their whole body...

In reply to wintertree: maybe i am out, maybe not. for sure it is too complex once you get into physiology - in all likelihood not properly understood still by anyone. it wouldn't surprise me if strenuous exercise in water could exarcebate energy loss as would counteract natural physiological vasoconstriction reflex to maintain core warmth... but on physiology i am just guessing.

the physics which is what i am talking about here is super basic though, you are losing heat rapidly no matter what you are doing, and your body won't let your tenperature drop beyond a very small range. there is no possible way you can stay warm in water 10c colder than body temp for one hour and consume anything like as low as 200cal. think of staying in a 27c pool for 10 hours - do you think a normal 2000cal daily diet would be enough energy to prevent loss of weight from heat loss and subsequent thermogenesis? i would suggest nowhere near.

think of phelps 9000 calorie daily diet - he would have had to be swimming/sprinting for 10 hours a day, non stop, to burn through that on exercise alone.

if anyone can do calculations and prove wrong or right, i'd be more than interested to read more.

In reply to fred_stone:

Phelps will have been spending a number of hours a day in the pool, working very hard, if we say 4 hours, burning 1200kcals and hour on average, you are looking at 4800kcals. That level of calorie burn is quite possible without considering using calories to keep warm. I sometimes burn calories at that rate running and I am nearly 20kg lighter and not a world class athlete.

Phelps will actually be swimming less than many distance swimmers, but will be spending a lot more time in the gym, couple of hours hard resistance workout, could easily account for a couple more thousand kcals, and let's not forget that he will burn calories the the other 18 hours of the day, again probably a couple of thousand.

I dont doubt that emerging yourself in water colder significantly colder than you core increases calories burned, but I think, for various physiological reasons, the increase is much small than you suggest. In a 25-27 degree pool, I bet it is less than 100kcals per hour.

If I am wrong and it is 400+ kcals per hour, I suggest you might have solved the countries obesity problem.

In reply to fred_stone:


Maths: Calorie burn rate = constant * oxygen consumption rate (give or take 7% for anaerobic conversion in very fit athletes and less for me!)

Science. Mitochondria take metabolic oxygen and intermediate molecules generated from your food and run these through the Krebs Cycle which generates a proton gradient - i.e. DC power source. This is either consumed in brown adipose tissue to directly generate heat, or runs ATPAse motors to regenerate ATP, which goes on to power your muscles, which generate heat as a byproduct.

Either way, calories+oxygen in = energy out.

Your hypothesis is that someone at rest in a 27oC pool burns 1000kcal/hour. You can go and look at your sports tables to see how much someone would have to breath to provide enough oxygen to burn 1000kcal/hour. I am happy to take it as equivalent to running at ~7mph on the flat.

Now go down to your local pool and look at the people that stand/float in the shallow end gossiping for an hour. Are they breathing even 50% as much as if they were running 7mph? No. So they cannot support that calorie burn rate aerobically. They're not magic, so they're not burning the calories.

The body sets up a temperature gradient internally - so whilst you loose heat much faster in water, your outer layers are allowed to cool much more than if you were in air, so the temperature difference with the water is reduced, so the rate of heat loss reduces. Now that is actually pretty basic physics, cleverly harnessed by the body.

In reply to wintertree:

For running it is actually more like 8 mph for male of average weight, 9 or even 10 mph for a lot of serious runners.

In reply to wintertree:
Now go down to your local pool and look at the people that stand/float in the shallow end gossiping for an hour. Are they breathing even 50% as much as if they were running 7mph? No. So they cannot support that calorie burn rate aerobically. They're not magic, so they're not burning the calories.

Somewhere in the middle lies the answer.( ps I like the magic sarcasm bit)

I do think Fred is on the right track, but not quite correct. If you are immersed in water colder than yourself, then at some stage you will chill, depending on many aspects such as fat content. As you chill, your resp rate will alter to maintain homeostasis, resulting in increased calorie consumption.
So, if fat people were left in cold water for longer, then they would lose weight?

In reply to Skol:
However, I concur that burning 1000cals on top of the effort of swimming in colder water than yourself is incorrect.
Someone must have studied this to arrive at common beliefs that swimming burns 200- 250 cals/ 20 mins of reasonable effort?
In fact, I will research this and report back.
Skol

In reply to Skol:
Water Temperature And Fat Loss

Temperature of the water does determine weight loss.

Researchers wanted to explore the temperature of pool water on weight loss. Their research was pretty surprising.

Research done by White et al. showed swimming in cold or neutral temperature water had very little effect on energy expenditure during the workout. In fact, neutral water swimmers burned 517 calories while cold water swimmers burned 505 calories.

However, they did show the swimmers in cold water had a higher energy intake after the workout than all the other groups. In fact, the energy intake was 44% higher than the neutral swimmers and control group!

In reply to Skol:

That deals with even colder water I think, the idea being our metabolism slows in cold water.

In reply to The New NickB:

The term to google for cold water (sub 15oC) is "mammalian dive reflex". When triggered, - especially in children - people can survive 45 minutes submerged without brain or heart damage.

But they do that in an almost comatosed state by insulating they core and shutting the rest of their body down, not by burning calories to stay hot. One of the amazing vestigial features evolution gifted us.

In reply to The New NickB:
Yeah. Not the study I was after. But metabolism increases in cold water / air, as an increased oxygen supply is needed. The peripheral blood supply reduces initially in an attempt to supply the core I.e brain and major organs.
Quite a conundrum this!?

Back on topic.

How many times a week are people swimming on here? I'm currently doing around four sessions of around 2km. Wondering if I should try ramping it up or whether it'll be too much. Would the marginal benefit be too small, for example?

In reply to SARS: I swim 3 hours a week. Swimming another hour extra is better for me but no time for that, any more than that doesn't help me.

In reply to wintertree:

It is worth remembering that at least one competition open water swimmer has died from over heating in temperatures not dissimilar to those at the local pool. Competition pools are cooler for this reason.

In reply to wintertree:

I think the record for submersion with no subsequent ill effect is about 67 minutes. The water was about 4 degrees C or colder. Part of this is the massive cooling effect of cold water inhaled on brain temperature, meaning less oxygen consumption required.

In reply to fred_stone:

Jeez this thread does not normally show on my topics list as Walls and Training is not on my favourite forums, so I saw it by accident today when I was not logged in and see you're all still going strong! I did go swimming but spent most of the time holding a toddler up as we watched the aerobics class in the other end of the pool "Why ladies dancing daddy?" and he hauled himself up and down the rope dividing the pool in two. I'm not sure how many calories I burned that day!

I'm going to start a serious regime once the dust settles from the birth of our second tomorrow (planned Caesarian) and will let you all know how I'm getting on. I've certainly got enough here to put together some sort of structured programme.

Now, back to the pseudo-Nazi experiments about what happens when you immerse people in cold water...

In reply to mbh:

Complete rubbish! We are talking kcal, not cal, so this is about 4180 kJ per hour, or about a kW. That is roughly 10 x our normal rate of heat loss, and thus energy burn, which I would have to run at 10 mph to achieve. That is some going. it is 6:00 pace, or 16 kph on the treadmill. I can't do that for an hour. When I do 15 kph for half an hour, my heart rate is 180 and climbing.

In reply to Bobling: swimming is a good way have getting all round fitness up you should just avoid breaststroke as this can hurt your kness.
what you need to practice is your leg kick rembering to kick from the hip
also just go at your own pace. if you need any more just ask me as I used to be a professionl swimmer and also a swim teacher

In reply to Bobling: Anyone get to see Lydecky win? what a performance!

In reply to dale1968:
Nope, but am just waiting to watch my daughter online at the welsh nationals.
There's some good kids there!

In reply to dale1968:

I can never decide if it's inspiring or depressing to watch someone swim 1 minute 2 second 100m 15 times in a row

In reply to ebygomm: Ha, both!

In reply to ebygomm:

eby you mentioned swimming clubs earlier in the thread. However, the Masters clubs all around me charge about £600 for subs. Seems expensive to me, what exactly are they charging for? I still haven't joined because of these fees...

In reply to SARS: i pay a yearly asa registration fee (fiftyish) and then £29 a month. That gives me access to 6 coached swimming sessions per week.

It's far cheaper for me than just going to a public pool. If you already pay gym membership that gives you pool access it might not seem as worthwhile.

In reply to SARS:

You've got a car.

This is far more inspiring

http://www.sheppertonopenwaterswim.co.uk/wp/?page_id=49

I can't claim any particular expertise in all of this, but reading through the posts made me wonder whether the movement through the water might have some significance, in addition to the water's greater conductivity. As with wind-chill, presumably heat-loss is even greater? The chatters sitting at the shallow end would generate a buffer of warmer water than the swimmers constantly moving up and down the pool, so soon wouldn't be loosing heat quite so fast