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Aaah, immediately a controversial subject!
In Asda today, a woman in a Fiesta hit my shopping trolley when she was backing out. No dramas I thought, could happen to anyone. So she pulled back in, I stuck the trolley out the way and went to talk to her.
She said she couldn't turn her head round to see if anyone was around and she normally asks someone to watch her out when reversing......
Now before someone jumps on their soapbox, this woman was clearly far too overweight to be driving a car as she was literally poured into the front seat and couldn't move at all as far as I can see. It took her a lot longer than normal to get out of her car and she herself admitted that she had to park in a family spot so she had room to get in and out of her car.
Clearly this woman and others in a similar position, shouldn't be driving should they?
I welcome any views on the subject.....
In Asda today, a woman in a Fiesta hit my shopping trolley when she was backing out. No dramas I thought, could happen to anyone. So she pulled back in, I stuck the trolley out the way and went to talk to her.
She said she couldn't turn her head round to see if anyone was around and she normally asks someone to watch her out when reversing......
Now before someone jumps on their soapbox, this woman was clearly far too overweight to be driving a car as she was literally poured into the front seat and couldn't move at all as far as I can see. It took her a lot longer than normal to get out of her car and she herself admitted that she had to park in a family spot so she had room to get in and out of her car.
Clearly this woman and others in a similar position, shouldn't be driving should they?
I welcome any views on the subject.....
In reply to pauldr:
> (In reply to Denni)
>
> Sounds like she needs a cycle not a car
Pity the bicycle>
> Sounds like she needs a cycle not a car
In reply to Denni:
I wouldn't usually 'pick' on someone for a lack of ability...but...it could be anything other than a trolley next time.
It's perfectly possible to use mirrors to reverse (mostly); i'd call the DVLA/police, so they can check if she can drive safely.
I wouldn't usually 'pick' on someone for a lack of ability...but...it could be anything other than a trolley next time.
It's perfectly possible to use mirrors to reverse (mostly); i'd call the DVLA/police, so they can check if she can drive safely.
In reply to Denni:
Maybe you get out of a car a lot quicker than normal?
> It took her a lot longer than normal to get out of her car
Maybe you get out of a car a lot quicker than normal?
In reply to mypyrex:
http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/fat-girl-riding-a-bicycle.jpg
It all becomes clear now, you have met Mrs Num Num.
http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/fat-girl-riding-a-bicycle.jpg
It all becomes clear now, you have met Mrs Num Num.
In reply to ByEek:
No, she takes longer to get out due to her weight.
> (In reply to Denni)
>
> [...]
>
> Maybe you get out of a car a lot quicker than normal?
>
> [...]
>
> Maybe you get out of a car a lot quicker than normal?
No, she takes longer to get out due to her weight.
In reply to Denni: I like the idea of someone being poured into the front seat.
In reply to mypyrex:
I think they should have made the distinction between 'riding' and 'sitting on'
> (In reply to Denni) http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/fat-girl-riding-a-bicycle.jpg
I think they should have made the distinction between 'riding' and 'sitting on'
In reply to Denni: Bet she'd be able to get out quick enough if they had a pie sale at greggs
In reply to Ciderslider:
PMSL!
E
> (In reply to Denni) Bet she'd be able to get out quick enough if they had a pie sale at greggs
PMSL!
E
In reply to Denni: If you can't turn your head to look around you either need to take further measures or not drive.
I work with a guy who has the top of his spine fused and can't turn, to mitigate this he has extra mirrors to remove the blind spots.
I work with a guy who has the top of his spine fused and can't turn, to mitigate this he has extra mirrors to remove the blind spots.
In reply to Denni:
as others have said, she shouldn't be driving if she can't turn her head sufficiently or compensate with mirrors. I have neck trouble sometimes and am very conscious if this, especially since its due to an accident caused by a driver whose neck has been fused causing them to miss the lorry they pulled out into while doing a u-turn...
as others have said, she shouldn't be driving if she can't turn her head sufficiently or compensate with mirrors. I have neck trouble sometimes and am very conscious if this, especially since its due to an accident caused by a driver whose neck has been fused causing them to miss the lorry they pulled out into while doing a u-turn...
In reply to Denni: No, she should not be driving. Neither should the elderly for that matter. The problem is of course how to decide who can and can't drive.
I would be in favour of a partial driving test every 5-10 years to make sure you're still capable of driving sensibly. A driving licence should not be a ticket to hurtle about in a ton and a half of metal for life. I don't think driving is taken seriously enough at all. The current driving test is a farce, and wrongly gives people the idea that once they've passed it they're a good driver. Which is of course wrong. Most people are awful drivers.
I would be in favour of a partial driving test every 5-10 years to make sure you're still capable of driving sensibly. A driving licence should not be a ticket to hurtle about in a ton and a half of metal for life. I don't think driving is taken seriously enough at all. The current driving test is a farce, and wrongly gives people the idea that once they've passed it they're a good driver. Which is of course wrong. Most people are awful drivers.
In reply to freerangecat:
(that should say 'had been fused'. the results of pulling out headfirst into a lorry were unfortunately not good for the driver and another passenger)
(that should say 'had been fused'. the results of pulling out headfirst into a lorry were unfortunately not good for the driver and another passenger)
In reply to woody0606:
Except for people complaining about other drivers. ()
> (In reply to Denni) No, she should not be driving. Neither should the elderly for that matter. The problem is of course how to decide who can and can't drive.
> I would be in favour of a partial driving test every 5-10 years to make sure you're still capable of driving sensibly. A driving licence should not be a ticket to hurtle about in a ton and a half of metal for life. I don't think driving is taken seriously enough at all. The current driving test is a farce, and wrongly gives people the idea that once they've passed it they're a good driver. Which is of course wrong. Most people are awful drivers.
> I would be in favour of a partial driving test every 5-10 years to make sure you're still capable of driving sensibly. A driving licence should not be a ticket to hurtle about in a ton and a half of metal for life. I don't think driving is taken seriously enough at all. The current driving test is a farce, and wrongly gives people the idea that once they've passed it they're a good driver. Which is of course wrong. Most people are awful drivers.
Except for people complaining about other drivers. ()
In reply to Denni:
Lets hope that next time its not a child she hits..I would have informed the police.
If she wants to kill herself by overeating thats her perogative but when she becomes a danger to others then she shouldn't be behind the wheel.
Maybe if she walked more and drove less she wouldn't be so fat..
Lets hope that next time its not a child she hits..I would have informed the police.
If she wants to kill herself by overeating thats her perogative but when she becomes a danger to others then she shouldn't be behind the wheel.
Maybe if she walked more and drove less she wouldn't be so fat..
In reply to Ciderslider: hehe like it....
In reply to Tom Valentine: Very hard to define, which is why I went on to say this: "The problem is of course how to decide who can and can't drive. I would be in favour of a partial driving test every 5-10 years to make sure you're still capable of driving sensibly."
I was merely pointing out that the elderly are one of the main groups who carry on driving long past the point that they become a danger.
I was merely pointing out that the elderly are one of the main groups who carry on driving long past the point that they become a danger.
In reply to Denni:
lucky you weren't a toddler I suppose.
Perhaps in future she could back in drive out of spaces?
lucky you weren't a toddler I suppose.
Perhaps in future she could back in drive out of spaces?
In reply to woody0606: I often think that people over 70 are just as dangerous as new young drivers. Bumbling down the middle lane of the motorway.
It would be a very brave government to bring this in.
It would be a very brave government to bring this in.
In reply to goldmember:
It is not about age it is about ability and safe driving.
A re-test if you get points on your licence?
It is not about age it is about ability and safe driving.
A re-test if you get points on your licence?
In reply to mypyrex:
Thas Maria Carey, no?
Thas Maria Carey, no?
In reply to Denni:
How about one of these?
http://www.starcarhire.co.uk/UploadedImages/222_1large.jpg
How about one of these?
http://www.starcarhire.co.uk/UploadedImages/222_1large.jpg
In reply to lowersharpnose: with age come slower reaction times, worse eye sight... therefore it is about age.
In reply to Denni:
A woman was reversing a car and you were incapable of getting a shopping trolley out of the way?
What are you? Some sort of cripple?
You shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley obviously.
Please discuss in terms of stereotyping and knee jerk reactions to people who are less perfect than we perfect specimens are.
A woman was reversing a car and you were incapable of getting a shopping trolley out of the way?
What are you? Some sort of cripple?
You shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley obviously.
Please discuss in terms of stereotyping and knee jerk reactions to people who are less perfect than we perfect specimens are.
In reply to Denni:
The thing that scares me most this, unless you count drivers with poor vision
.
Fat bus and lorry drivers are the worst. Heart attacks waiting to happen, in charge of large , metal killing machines.
The thing that scares me most this, unless you count drivers with poor vision
.
Fat bus and lorry drivers are the worst. Heart attacks waiting to happen, in charge of large , metal killing machines.
In reply to andyathome:
Haha. A good point. Perhaps it was some sort of tyre shredding reverse geared racing start that caught him unawares?
Haha. A good point. Perhaps it was some sort of tyre shredding reverse geared racing start that caught him unawares?
In reply to andyathome:
Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
> (In reply to Denni)
>
> A woman was reversing a car and you were incapable of getting a shopping trolley out of the way?
>
> What are you? Some sort of cripple?
>
> You shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley obviously.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please discuss in terms of stereotyping and knee jerk reactions to people who are less perfect than we perfect specimens are.
>
> A woman was reversing a car and you were incapable of getting a shopping trolley out of the way?
>
> What are you? Some sort of cripple?
>
> You shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley obviously.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please discuss in terms of stereotyping and knee jerk reactions to people who are less perfect than we perfect specimens are.
Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
In reply to Denni:
Dig...
That...
Hole...
> (In reply to andyathome)
> [...]
>
>
> Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
> [...]
>
>
> Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
Dig...
That...
Hole...
In reply to Denni:
Its hard due to this day and age you cant discriminate. However what would happen in a crash? Im sure if she had to "pour" into the car i bet she would be dangerously close to the steering wheel. Well, she'll probably die from that alone. But then you could say that with shorties. where does it end? haha.
But yes, i agree she should have a modified car, and a license to reflect her disabilities. Even if it is just her being overweight. You should have a medical when applying for a license!
Its hard due to this day and age you cant discriminate. However what would happen in a crash? Im sure if she had to "pour" into the car i bet she would be dangerously close to the steering wheel. Well, she'll probably die from that alone. But then you could say that with shorties. where does it end? haha.
But yes, i agree she should have a modified car, and a license to reflect her disabilities. Even if it is just her being overweight. You should have a medical when applying for a license!
In reply to Denni:
No troll. No humour.
I despair of some of the crap spouted on this forum sometimes. The Daily Mail probably wouldn't touch it.
And despair that people come oozing out of the woodwork to support that crap.
'Fat people shouldn't be allowed to drive'. Listen to yourselves. Just listen. Any minute now someone will start on gypsies.....
Is that a welcome view?
> Aaah, immediately a controversial subject!
> I welcome any views on the subject.....
No troll. No humour.
I despair of some of the crap spouted on this forum sometimes. The Daily Mail probably wouldn't touch it.
And despair that people come oozing out of the woodwork to support that crap.
'Fat people shouldn't be allowed to drive'. Listen to yourselves. Just listen. Any minute now someone will start on gypsies.....
Is that a welcome view?
In reply to Denni:
To be fair, i've mentioned a massive safety issue to there own well being to back up my point...
To be fair, i've mentioned a massive safety issue to there own well being to back up my point...
In reply to andyathome:
Prehaps the original poster should have titled the post "Drivers who are so morbidly obese that they are incapable of safely controlling a car.
He made his case quite clearly that, by the womens own admission, she was unsafe to drive.
He also asked the question:- "Clearly this woman and others in a similar position, shouldn't be driving should they?"
With this sentiment I wholeheartedly agree. ANYONE obese, anorexic, poorly sighted, on medication or through ANY other set of circumstances are UNSAFE to drive should not be behind the wheel of a car.
Why should we make exceptions to safety just because of a medical condition??
Prehaps the original poster should have titled the post "Drivers who are so morbidly obese that they are incapable of safely controlling a car.
He made his case quite clearly that, by the womens own admission, she was unsafe to drive.
He also asked the question:- "Clearly this woman and others in a similar position, shouldn't be driving should they?"
With this sentiment I wholeheartedly agree. ANYONE obese, anorexic, poorly sighted, on medication or through ANY other set of circumstances are UNSAFE to drive should not be behind the wheel of a car.
Why should we make exceptions to safety just because of a medical condition??
In reply to andyathome:
Godwin!!
Apart from the fact that no one has said that you make a very good point...Oh wait no you don't do you?
> (In reply to Denni)
> No humour.
I agree.> I despair of some of the crap spouted on this forum sometimes. The Daily Mail probably wouldn't touch it.
Godwin!!
> 'Fat people shouldn't be allowed to drive'. Listen to yourselves. Just listen. Any minute now someone will start on gypsies.....
Apart from the fact that no one has said that you make a very good point...Oh wait no you don't do you?
> Is that a welcome view?
It's a pretty stupid one.In reply to Denni:
If you've got her details report her to the DVLA and the police and they can sort it out. She shouldn't be driving without taking extra measures to ensure that this can't happen.
If you've got her details report her to the DVLA and the police and they can sort it out. She shouldn't be driving without taking extra measures to ensure that this can't happen.
In reply to Denni:
Perfectly possible to reverse using only side and interior rear view mirrors. Van drivers have no other option.
Sounds like an incompetent driver, whatever her weight.
Neil
Perfectly possible to reverse using only side and interior rear view mirrors. Van drivers have no other option.
Sounds like an incompetent driver, whatever her weight.
Neil
In reply to Skol: there is actually something in place for this (medicals) see here http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@mo...
This is for initial licence application and every five years from the age of 45-65 thereafter every year.
On top of this they have to complete CPC on how to drive, first aid, Eco driving etc etc every five years (35 hours).
With regard to poor vision I was once test riding motorcycles and as part of this the basic reading of a number plate was required. A guy failed this who had rode there.
I think it whole be a requirement of a licence to have eye tests yearly. How many people are tested for their sight at the scene of an accident along with being breatherlised?
This is for initial licence application and every five years from the age of 45-65 thereafter every year.
On top of this they have to complete CPC on how to drive, first aid, Eco driving etc etc every five years (35 hours).
With regard to poor vision I was once test riding motorcycles and as part of this the basic reading of a number plate was required. A guy failed this who had rode there.
I think it whole be a requirement of a licence to have eye tests yearly. How many people are tested for their sight at the scene of an accident along with being breatherlised?
In reply to Denni:
Oh, the irony....
you have a go at some lady becuase she is so fat she couldn't turn her head or body terribly well in the car, or hop out of it like the gazelle you seem think she should be.
next time, it might not be someone whose mobility is compromised due to their size, but a disabled person. Yesterday I saw a guy driving a car who had the sort of disblement that meant he was wheelchair bound, and his body was so twisted that his head was stiffly held in a turned and twisted position, with his chin on his shoulder.
What if it had been this guy who backed into your precious trolley?
Sx
> Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
Oh, the irony....
you have a go at some lady becuase she is so fat she couldn't turn her head or body terribly well in the car, or hop out of it like the gazelle you seem think she should be.
next time, it might not be someone whose mobility is compromised due to their size, but a disabled person. Yesterday I saw a guy driving a car who had the sort of disblement that meant he was wheelchair bound, and his body was so twisted that his head was stiffly held in a turned and twisted position, with his chin on his shoulder.
What if it had been this guy who backed into your precious trolley?
Sx
In reply to Denni:
Would you ban vans for the lack of rear visibility?
Sounds to me like she has a normal coping strategy (asking for help) and that using the car less may do her health some good but that's really her business, not yours or the DVLA's.
jk
> Clearly this woman and others in a similar position, shouldn't be driving should they?
Would you ban vans for the lack of rear visibility?
Sounds to me like she has a normal coping strategy (asking for help) and that using the car less may do her health some good but that's really her business, not yours or the DVLA's.
jk
In reply to Sarah G:
Had a go at some lady because she was fat? Not all all, telling it like it is. She is overweight and therefore cannot drive properly so is a danger to other road users.
What if it was a guy who backed into my trolley? If the said chap was obverweight and not able to drive properly, I'd still say the same thing. Sex has nothing to do with it although you seem to think it has by discerning between the two.?
Cripple, an un pc word i'm sure so making sure the respondent was aware of this. Why do people think you shouldn't comment on other people? She was fat, barley able to get into her car, couldn't see properly to reverse simple as that.
As far as someone is impared due to a disability, then you would hope they would take the correct measures to be able to drive. Just because someone is disabled shouldn't give them the right to say they can't drive properly due to their disability should they?
Irony, isn't that something a woman does or should be doing.......
Had a go at some lady because she was fat? Not all all, telling it like it is. She is overweight and therefore cannot drive properly so is a danger to other road users.
What if it was a guy who backed into my trolley? If the said chap was obverweight and not able to drive properly, I'd still say the same thing. Sex has nothing to do with it although you seem to think it has by discerning between the two.?
Cripple, an un pc word i'm sure so making sure the respondent was aware of this. Why do people think you shouldn't comment on other people? She was fat, barley able to get into her car, couldn't see properly to reverse simple as that.
As far as someone is impared due to a disability, then you would hope they would take the correct measures to be able to drive. Just because someone is disabled shouldn't give them the right to say they can't drive properly due to their disability should they?
Irony, isn't that something a woman does or should be doing.......
In reply to jkarran:
What has rear visibility to do with it? Barking up the wrong tree mate. There is plenty of visibility it is simply that she is unable to use it due to being unable to turn her head because she is overweight.
Did I say it was anything to do with the DVLA? Also, luckily my daugter was at home with her mum for once otherwise it would have been her walking next to the trolley on the side the car hit so yes, it really is my business.
> (In reply to Denni)
>
> [...]
>
> Would you ban vans for the lack of rear visibility?
>
> Sounds to me like she has a normal coping strategy (asking for help) and that using the car less may do her health some good but that's really her business, not yours or the DVLA's.
>
> jk
>
> [...]
>
> Would you ban vans for the lack of rear visibility?
>
> Sounds to me like she has a normal coping strategy (asking for help) and that using the car less may do her health some good but that's really her business, not yours or the DVLA's.
>
> jk
What has rear visibility to do with it? Barking up the wrong tree mate. There is plenty of visibility it is simply that she is unable to use it due to being unable to turn her head because she is overweight.
Did I say it was anything to do with the DVLA? Also, luckily my daugter was at home with her mum for once otherwise it would have been her walking next to the trolley on the side the car hit so yes, it really is my business.
In reply to Denni:
Turn your head in a van. What do you see?
You were hit by someone being careless. What you saw was someone fat.
Who licences drivers in the uk? DVLA.
Why didn't you call the police at the scene of the accident (Sorry, carpark bump) if you feel so strongly?
jk
> What has rear visibility to do with it? Barking up the wrong tree mate. There is plenty of visibility it is simply that she is unable to use it due to being unable to turn her head because she is overweight.
Turn your head in a van. What do you see?
You were hit by someone being careless. What you saw was someone fat.
> Did I say it was anything to do with the DVLA? Also, luckily my daugter was at home with her mum for once otherwise it would have been her walking next to the trolley on the side the car hit so yes, it really is my business.
Who licences drivers in the uk? DVLA.
Why didn't you call the police at the scene of the accident (Sorry, carpark bump) if you feel so strongly?
jk
In reply to jkarran:
"Turn your head in a van. What do you see?
You were hit by someone being careless. What you saw was someone fat."
Agree. You can reverse safely using your side and rear-view mirrors in a car, there is no need to turn your head. I very rarely do other than for a quick check before starting the manoeuvre.
If she can't do that, she is an incompetent driver, whether she's 3 stone or 30 stone.
(It doesn't help that driving instructors tend to teach reversing only when turning your head and ignore the mirrors, which IMO are a far better tool for e.g. reversing around a corner and reverse parking, particularly if you have electric mirrors so can quickly drop the nearside one a bit so you can see the rear wheel - easy then!).
Neil
"Turn your head in a van. What do you see?
You were hit by someone being careless. What you saw was someone fat."
Agree. You can reverse safely using your side and rear-view mirrors in a car, there is no need to turn your head. I very rarely do other than for a quick check before starting the manoeuvre.
If she can't do that, she is an incompetent driver, whether she's 3 stone or 30 stone.
(It doesn't help that driving instructors tend to teach reversing only when turning your head and ignore the mirrors, which IMO are a far better tool for e.g. reversing around a corner and reverse parking, particularly if you have electric mirrors so can quickly drop the nearside one a bit so you can see the rear wheel - easy then!).
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Yes, I agree with Neil. It has little to with being fat, or with an inability to turn her head. How long she takes to get into or out of her car is irrelevant, so long as she can drive it safely when she's in.
Which it seems she can't. She could learn to use her mirrors when reversing. Or, if asking someone to check behind her when reversing is her only strategy, then she needs to make sure she actually does that all the time, instead of most of the time. Reversing blindly round a supermarket car park is pretty dangerous. Although remarkably common, trying to shepherd two kids safely across a busy supermarket car park scares me silly.
And yes, I agree driving instructors could do with covering reversing using mirrors....
Yes, I agree with Neil. It has little to with being fat, or with an inability to turn her head. How long she takes to get into or out of her car is irrelevant, so long as she can drive it safely when she's in.
Which it seems she can't. She could learn to use her mirrors when reversing. Or, if asking someone to check behind her when reversing is her only strategy, then she needs to make sure she actually does that all the time, instead of most of the time. Reversing blindly round a supermarket car park is pretty dangerous. Although remarkably common, trying to shepherd two kids safely across a busy supermarket car park scares me silly.
And yes, I agree driving instructors could do with covering reversing using mirrors....
In reply to jkarran:
Just to reiterate, I didn't mention the DVLA and I'm fully aware that they licence drivers in the UK.
Valid point about reversing and yes she was careless but also in my view, a dangerous driver. By her own admission, she said she always asks someone to guide her out when reversing, surely that is not a safe driver? As far as reporting her to the Police, yes I probably should have done.
She only hit my trolley, but the fact that she can't turn her head to see what she is doing may mean she causes an accident with different consequences so I probably should have reported her as I do feel strongly about it.
Do you not agree that if you are that overweight, cannot see what is behind you and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space that it is a recipe for disaster or are you suggesting it is all ok?
Just to reiterate, I didn't mention the DVLA and I'm fully aware that they licence drivers in the UK.
Valid point about reversing and yes she was careless but also in my view, a dangerous driver. By her own admission, she said she always asks someone to guide her out when reversing, surely that is not a safe driver? As far as reporting her to the Police, yes I probably should have done.
She only hit my trolley, but the fact that she can't turn her head to see what she is doing may mean she causes an accident with different consequences so I probably should have reported her as I do feel strongly about it.
Do you not agree that if you are that overweight, cannot see what is behind you and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space that it is a recipe for disaster or are you suggesting it is all ok?
In reply to Denni:
Oh I see, you think she should choose not to drive because she's impaired rather than be banned (by the DVLA)? Newsflash: She has chosen.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable coping strategy to me, learning the use and limitations of her mirrors would be a better one but what can you do. My neck occasionally seizes up, it doesn't stop me driving safely I just have to adapt, same as when I drive a van.
So do it if you must. Of all the people commenting only you were there and know how much of a risk she really poses.
No, I don't agree. I think most people you and me included have limitations, some they're aware of, some they're not. A stiff neck and poor mobility I really don't see as serious a problem. By the sound of it the lady that bumped you could maybe learn to cope better but she's an individual who made a mistake, that's what matters not that she's a member of the group 'Fat' or 'Slow'.
Your extrapolation from the misjudgment of an individual to the proposed banning of a group would be comical if it wasn't quite so unpleasant.
jk
> Just to reiterate, I didn't mention the DVLA and I'm fully aware that they licence drivers in the UK.
Oh I see, you think she should choose not to drive because she's impaired rather than be banned (by the DVLA)? Newsflash: She has chosen.
> By her own admission, she said she always asks someone to guide her out when reversing, surely that is not a safe driver?
Sounds like a pretty reasonable coping strategy to me, learning the use and limitations of her mirrors would be a better one but what can you do. My neck occasionally seizes up, it doesn't stop me driving safely I just have to adapt, same as when I drive a van.
> She only hit my trolley, but the fact that she can't turn her head to see what she is doing may mean she causes an accident with different consequences so I probably should have reported her as I do feel strongly about it.
So do it if you must. Of all the people commenting only you were there and know how much of a risk she really poses.
> Do you not agree that if you are that overweight, cannot see what is behind you and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space that it is a recipe for disaster or are you suggesting it is all ok?
No, I don't agree. I think most people you and me included have limitations, some they're aware of, some they're not. A stiff neck and poor mobility I really don't see as serious a problem. By the sound of it the lady that bumped you could maybe learn to cope better but she's an individual who made a mistake, that's what matters not that she's a member of the group 'Fat' or 'Slow'.
Your extrapolation from the misjudgment of an individual to the proposed banning of a group would be comical if it wasn't quite so unpleasant.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
As far as the DVLA goes, yes she has chosen to continue driving but maybe she should rethink that decision? Do you need someone to help you reverse out and do you think it is acceptable to do so? I certainly don't and I'm sure most people don't think so either. Coping strategy my arse. I'll just sit in my car until someone helps me reverse out of this space/my drive/the petrol station and if no one comes along, I'll just reverse out and hope for the best....
Your neck seizes up sometimes but you can still drive safely. So if it gets to the point where you cannot turn your head to check what is behind you and you have to ask someone to help you reverse out of a space you think that is acceptable?
Misjudgement of an individual? Not a misjudgement at all. She openly admits that she needs help to reverse which is what I have based my judgement of this individual on.
Unpleasant? She is overweight and cannot drive in a safe manner so it is actually that simple. Why do people get so upset and accuse others of being unpleasant when the facts are plain and simple and actually direct from the horses mouth. In fact I'm actually only agreeing with what she says.
As far as the DVLA goes, yes she has chosen to continue driving but maybe she should rethink that decision? Do you need someone to help you reverse out and do you think it is acceptable to do so? I certainly don't and I'm sure most people don't think so either. Coping strategy my arse. I'll just sit in my car until someone helps me reverse out of this space/my drive/the petrol station and if no one comes along, I'll just reverse out and hope for the best....
Your neck seizes up sometimes but you can still drive safely. So if it gets to the point where you cannot turn your head to check what is behind you and you have to ask someone to help you reverse out of a space you think that is acceptable?
Misjudgement of an individual? Not a misjudgement at all. She openly admits that she needs help to reverse which is what I have based my judgement of this individual on.
Unpleasant? She is overweight and cannot drive in a safe manner so it is actually that simple. Why do people get so upset and accuse others of being unpleasant when the facts are plain and simple and actually direct from the horses mouth. In fact I'm actually only agreeing with what she says.
I suspect this person could have been charged with Dangerous Driving:
"Dangerous driving includes situations where the driver has of his or her own free will adopted a particular way of driving, and also where there is a substantial error of judgement, that, even if only for a short time, amounts to driving falling far below the required standard."
Examples include:
- failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as cyclists, motorcyclists, horse riders, the elderly and pedestrians or when in the vicinity of a pedestrian crossing, hospital, school or residential home;
- failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as cyclists, motorcyclists, horse riders, the elderly and pedestrians or when in the vicinity of a pedestrian crossing, hospital, school or residential home;
http://goo.gl/IaiDd2
"Dangerous driving includes situations where the driver has of his or her own free will adopted a particular way of driving, and also where there is a substantial error of judgement, that, even if only for a short time, amounts to driving falling far below the required standard."
Examples include:
- failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as cyclists, motorcyclists, horse riders, the elderly and pedestrians or when in the vicinity of a pedestrian crossing, hospital, school or residential home;
- failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as cyclists, motorcyclists, horse riders, the elderly and pedestrians or when in the vicinity of a pedestrian crossing, hospital, school or residential home;
http://goo.gl/IaiDd2
In reply to jkarran:
Well, I suspect the reality is that she hasn't disclosed (or even considered if she needs to disclose) any medical conditions to the DVLA (eg "spinal problems" need to be disclosed). The responsibility falls on the driver, not the DVLA.
> Oh I see, you think she should choose not to drive because she's impaired rather than be banned (by the DVLA)? Newsflash: She has chosen.
Well, I suspect the reality is that she hasn't disclosed (or even considered if she needs to disclose) any medical conditions to the DVLA (eg "spinal problems" need to be disclosed). The responsibility falls on the driver, not the DVLA.
In reply to Denni:
I'm not sure why you keep linking it to being overweight - surely that, in itself, isn't the problem?
I'm not sure why you keep linking it to being overweight - surely that, in itself, isn't the problem?
In reply to Denni:
We all should occasionally. That's her call though and I wouldn't prejudge which answer is right.
I don't need help, I use my mirrors and take my time. If I did I'd ask for it.
The misjudgement is in not asking for help, learning to use her mirrors properly or making an effort to look on that occasion. An individual decision unrelated to her weight or mobility.
What is unpleasant is the extrapolation from one incident with a careless individual to the absurd 'fat people are unsafe drivers' position. There's a pretty easy check you can run: If it was a black driver or wheelchair user that carelessly bumped you would the the extrapolation from individual to group be absurd and unpleasant... Is yours?
I'm not upset and I do think from your description she was driving rather carelessly. I just find it hard to get too cross about something we all occasionally do (no really, you and me too) where nothing too bad happened.
jk
> As far as the DVLA goes, yes she has chosen to continue driving but maybe she should rethink that decision?
We all should occasionally. That's her call though and I wouldn't prejudge which answer is right.
> Your neck seizes up sometimes but you can still drive safely. So if it gets to the point where you cannot turn your head to check what is behind you and you have to ask someone to help you reverse out of a space you think that is acceptable?
I don't need help, I use my mirrors and take my time. If I did I'd ask for it.
> Misjudgement of an individual? Not a misjudgement at all. She openly admits that she needs help to reverse which is what I have based my judgement of this individual on.
The misjudgement is in not asking for help, learning to use her mirrors properly or making an effort to look on that occasion. An individual decision unrelated to her weight or mobility.
> Unpleasant? She is overweight and cannot drive in a safe manner so it is actually that simple.
What is unpleasant is the extrapolation from one incident with a careless individual to the absurd 'fat people are unsafe drivers' position. There's a pretty easy check you can run: If it was a black driver or wheelchair user that carelessly bumped you would the the extrapolation from individual to group be absurd and unpleasant... Is yours?
I'm not upset and I do think from your description she was driving rather carelessly. I just find it hard to get too cross about something we all occasionally do (no really, you and me too) where nothing too bad happened.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Using race as an example is an insult to people who have suffered discrimination on racial grounds.
In a driving context:
Person 1) Hello, DVLA. I would like a driving licence but I am black
Person 2) Hello, DVLA. I would like a driving licence, but I have eaten too many pies, am now morbidly obese, have limited motion in my neck and have given myself type 2 diabetes.
It may still be poor form to generalise based on one morbidly obese driver, but it is absolutely not comparable to race, for example.
Spot the difference.
> If it was a black driver or wheelchair user that carelessly bumped you would the the extrapolation from individual to group be absurd and unpleasant.
Using race as an example is an insult to people who have suffered discrimination on racial grounds.
In a driving context:
Person 1) Hello, DVLA. I would like a driving licence but I am black
Person 2) Hello, DVLA. I would like a driving licence, but I have eaten too many pies, am now morbidly obese, have limited motion in my neck and have given myself type 2 diabetes.
It may still be poor form to generalise based on one morbidly obese driver, but it is absolutely not comparable to race, for example.
Spot the difference.
In reply to Denni:
"Do you not agree that if you are that overweight"
Absolutely nothing to do with driving, and not really any of your business.
"cannot see what is behind you"
Fine, provided you can use your mirrors correctly to do so. I went to the shop on my lunch and when finished reversed out, as I normally do[1], using my mirrors. I didn't hit anything or anyone, because I used them properly. I didn't need to turn my head much to do so.
If not being able to see out of the back of your vehicle is not acceptable, all vans, minibuses, buses, lorries and coaches should be banned forthwith.
[1] After I passed my test I spent a good while in which I pretty much only drove the uni union minibuses. The effect of this is that many of my driving habits in relation to the use of mirrors etc tend to assume no view out of the back.
"and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space"
That is not OK and is a sign of incompetent driving.
Neil
"Do you not agree that if you are that overweight"
Absolutely nothing to do with driving, and not really any of your business.
"cannot see what is behind you"
Fine, provided you can use your mirrors correctly to do so. I went to the shop on my lunch and when finished reversed out, as I normally do[1], using my mirrors. I didn't hit anything or anyone, because I used them properly. I didn't need to turn my head much to do so.
If not being able to see out of the back of your vehicle is not acceptable, all vans, minibuses, buses, lorries and coaches should be banned forthwith.
[1] After I passed my test I spent a good while in which I pretty much only drove the uni union minibuses. The effect of this is that many of my driving habits in relation to the use of mirrors etc tend to assume no view out of the back.
"and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space"
That is not OK and is a sign of incompetent driving.
Neil
In reply to Denni:
"Your neck seizes up sometimes but you can still drive safely. So if it gets to the point where you cannot turn your head to check what is behind you and you have to ask someone to help you reverse out of a space you think that is acceptable?"
It's having to ask for help that is unacceptable. I have known drivers who had to ask for help to reverse. This is bad driving, regardless of who is practicing it.
How would you feel if she changed to driving a Transit van, in which you can't see out of the back so turning your head is pointless?
(I assume she can turn her head and move her eyes sufficiently to carry out a blind spot check through her and her passenger's side windows - without that she is indeed dangerous purely on health grounds)
Neil
"Your neck seizes up sometimes but you can still drive safely. So if it gets to the point where you cannot turn your head to check what is behind you and you have to ask someone to help you reverse out of a space you think that is acceptable?"
It's having to ask for help that is unacceptable. I have known drivers who had to ask for help to reverse. This is bad driving, regardless of who is practicing it.
How would you feel if she changed to driving a Transit van, in which you can't see out of the back so turning your head is pointless?
(I assume she can turn her head and move her eyes sufficiently to carry out a blind spot check through her and her passenger's side windows - without that she is indeed dangerous purely on health grounds)
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Particularly as she didn't actually do so.....
> It's having to ask for help that is unacceptable.
Particularly as she didn't actually do so.....
In reply to Denni:
If you can't reverse without assistance, no, that is not ok. Being overweight doesn't necessarily lead to this though. Plenty of fat artic drivers around who can reverse 40 foot trailers alright. As others have said, if she wasn't using her mirrors properly then she is a bad driver, whether she was a Ten Ton Tessie or a bean pole.
While we're on the subject, you seem to be inferring that her being fat is the reason she can't turn her head. Is that the case, or is it that she has a neck injury from being knocked over by someone pushing a shopping trolley? ;0)
> (In reply to jkarran)
> Do you not agree that if you are that overweight, cannot see what is behind you and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space that it is a recipe for disaster or are you suggesting it is all ok?
If you can't reverse without assistance, no, that is not ok. Being overweight doesn't necessarily lead to this though. Plenty of fat artic drivers around who can reverse 40 foot trailers alright. As others have said, if she wasn't using her mirrors properly then she is a bad driver, whether she was a Ten Ton Tessie or a bean pole.
While we're on the subject, you seem to be inferring that her being fat is the reason she can't turn her head. Is that the case, or is it that she has a neck injury from being knocked over by someone pushing a shopping trolley? ;0)
In reply to Denni: "There is plenty of visibility it is simply that she is unable to use .... because she is overweight.!"
Judging by your profile so are you. Presumably you have voluntarily given up driving until you have lost a bit of the flab. Or maybe it's only overweight woman who shouldn't be able to drive?
Judging by your profile so are you. Presumably you have voluntarily given up driving until you have lost a bit of the flab. Or maybe it's only overweight woman who shouldn't be able to drive?
In reply to woody0606:
To an extent this already exists, albeit relying on individuals being honest with themselves and the DVLA (https://www.gov.uk/current-medical-guidelines-dvla-guidance-for-professiona...
"Age is no bar to the holding of a licence. DVLA requires confirmation at age of 70 that no medical disability is present, thereafter a 3 year licence is issued subject to satisfactory completion of medical questions on the application form."
> I would be in favour of a partial driving test every 5-10 years to make sure you're still capable of driving sensibly.
To an extent this already exists, albeit relying on individuals being honest with themselves and the DVLA (https://www.gov.uk/current-medical-guidelines-dvla-guidance-for-professiona...
"Age is no bar to the holding of a licence. DVLA requires confirmation at age of 70 that no medical disability is present, thereafter a 3 year licence is issued subject to satisfactory completion of medical questions on the application form."
In reply to wintertree:
Of course I see the difference. One form of prejudice is broadly accepted on this forum, the other isn't.
I'm not insulting anyone that has suffered prejudice.
jk
Of course I see the difference. One form of prejudice is broadly accepted on this forum, the other isn't.
I'm not insulting anyone that has suffered prejudice.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. Not too sure where you are going with the race, disabled card though that Isn't the subject. If I now tell you that she was Fijian, does that make me a racist as well?
Think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. Not too sure where you are going with the race, disabled card though that Isn't the subject. If I now tell you that she was Fijian, does that make me a racist as well?
In reply to Denni:
I don't see that it overly matters what she was, other than that she was an incompetent driver.
Neil
I don't see that it overly matters what she was, other than that she was an incompetent driver.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
("they were", if you prefer removing that last possibly prejudicial part of the sentence)
Neil
("they were", if you prefer removing that last possibly prejudicial part of the sentence)
Neil
In reply to jkarran:
Are you not also trying to imply that the prejudices carry the same degree of moral wrongness?
If you are not, then why are you concerned that one is broadly accepted whilst another is universally acknowledged as being bad?
You can't have it both ways.
Like it or not, morbid obesity is normally self induced and arguably crosses over into the area of notifying the DVLA of conditions affecting your ability to drive. If expressing that view is prejudice then we might as well all give up on any idea of personal responsibility.
> Of course I see the difference. One form of prejudice is broadly accepted on this forum, the other isn't.
Are you not also trying to imply that the prejudices carry the same degree of moral wrongness?
If you are not, then why are you concerned that one is broadly accepted whilst another is universally acknowledged as being bad?
You can't have it both ways.
Like it or not, morbid obesity is normally self induced and arguably crosses over into the area of notifying the DVLA of conditions affecting your ability to drive. If expressing that view is prejudice then we might as well all give up on any idea of personal responsibility.
In reply to Sally Bustyerface:
I am actually morbidly obese. That jacket in my profile is actually an athletic fit, very thin material I was just hoping people wouldn't notice. Gutted that I've been busted.
Why are you distinguishing between men and women? You're coming off a bit sexist there.
> (In reply to Denni) "There is plenty of visibility it is simply that she is unable to use .... because she is overweight.!"
>
> Judging by your profile so are you. Presumably you have voluntarily given up driving until you have lost a bit of the flab. Or maybe it's only overweight woman who shouldn't be able to drive?
>
> Judging by your profile so are you. Presumably you have voluntarily given up driving until you have lost a bit of the flab. Or maybe it's only overweight woman who shouldn't be able to drive?
I am actually morbidly obese. That jacket in my profile is actually an athletic fit, very thin material I was just hoping people wouldn't notice. Gutted that I've been busted.
Why are you distinguishing between men and women? You're coming off a bit sexist there.
In reply to wintertree:
Just out of curiosity, is depression self induced too? Maybe such folks just need people like you to tell them to snap out of it? This would save the NHS millions in treatment.
>
> Like it or not, morbid obesity is normally self induced
> Like it or not, morbid obesity is normally self induced
Just out of curiosity, is depression self induced too? Maybe such folks just need people like you to tell them to snap out of it? This would save the NHS millions in treatment.
In reply to ByEek:
Depression can come from a wide variety of causes outside the persons control and no - people can't snap out of it - and I would never suggest that.
You can however be told - and choose - not to put another pie in your mouth. Smoking appears to do more to help with depression than eating, yet the depression link is trotted out more to counter views on obesity than on smoking.
You could argue that people over-eat because they are depressed, but depression has been with humanity a lot longer than wide spread morbid obesity, and in modern Britain there are many treatment approaches (e.g. pharmaceutical and therapy) for depression that were not available in the past, so if there was a depression-obesity link, surely we would expect it to reduce with alternative options.
> Just out of curiosity, is depression self induced too? Maybe such folks just need people like you to tell them to snap out of it? This would save the NHS millions in treatment.
Depression can come from a wide variety of causes outside the persons control and no - people can't snap out of it - and I would never suggest that.
You can however be told - and choose - not to put another pie in your mouth. Smoking appears to do more to help with depression than eating, yet the depression link is trotted out more to counter views on obesity than on smoking.
You could argue that people over-eat because they are depressed, but depression has been with humanity a lot longer than wide spread morbid obesity, and in modern Britain there are many treatment approaches (e.g. pharmaceutical and therapy) for depression that were not available in the past, so if there was a depression-obesity link, surely we would expect it to reduce with alternative options.
In reply to woody0606:
And the "young" are one of the main groups which become a danger the moment they pas their test and get behind a wheel!
Seriously though, I'd have no problem with regular driving and medical checks, the frequency of which could increase with age.
As for the incident in question reversing sensors are a great asset in crowded car parks as they detect people and trolleys passing behind you. As someone else has commented, people pushing trolleys behind cars which are reversing should also exercise a duty of care by keeping a look out and avoiding it.
> (In reply to Tom V)
>
> I was merely pointing out that the elderly are one of the main groups who carry on driving long past the point that they become a danger.
>
> I was merely pointing out that the elderly are one of the main groups who carry on driving long past the point that they become a danger.
And the "young" are one of the main groups which become a danger the moment they pas their test and get behind a wheel!
Seriously though, I'd have no problem with regular driving and medical checks, the frequency of which could increase with age.
As for the incident in question reversing sensors are a great asset in crowded car parks as they detect people and trolleys passing behind you. As someone else has commented, people pushing trolleys behind cars which are reversing should also exercise a duty of care by keeping a look out and avoiding it.
In reply to Trangia:
Good point, a bit like the cyclists who filter up the inside of a vehicle indicating left.
> As someone else has commented, people pushing trolleys behind cars which are reversing should also exercise a duty of care by keeping a look out and avoiding it.
Good point, a bit like the cyclists who filter up the inside of a vehicle indicating left.
In reply to Trangia:
Totally agree with that. I was a crap driver when I first passed my test, in fact everyone is! Which is why, as I said above, the driving test needs to change. At the moment it teaches people to pass the test, not necessarily to drive well.
> (In reply to woody0606)
> [...]
>
> And the "young" are one of the main groups which become a danger the moment they pas their test and get behind a wheel!
> [...]
>
> And the "young" are one of the main groups which become a danger the moment they pas their test and get behind a wheel!
Totally agree with that. I was a crap driver when I first passed my test, in fact everyone is! Which is why, as I said above, the driving test needs to change. At the moment it teaches people to pass the test, not necessarily to drive well.
In reply to Denni:
or just may be in a car park full of cars reversing you ought to pay a bit more attention to what is happening around you. Strikes me you were both being inattentive
> (In reply to andyathome)
> [...]
>
>
> Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
> [...]
>
>
> Cripple? Do you mean someone who is disabled? Kind of difficult to get out the way when you don't expect it. Maybe I shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley as a male as Isn't shopping something wimmen should be doing anyway?
or just may be in a car park full of cars reversing you ought to pay a bit more attention to what is happening around you. Strikes me you were both being inattentive
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Fair point. It is, in a car park, courteous to let cars go.
If supermarkets weren't so cheap, though, they could provide footpaths between the cars. Some do, but never for all parking bays. Shame.
Neil
Fair point. It is, in a car park, courteous to let cars go.
If supermarkets weren't so cheap, though, they could provide footpaths between the cars. Some do, but never for all parking bays. Shame.
Neil
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Possibly, but by the time she reversed out and I saw her, she had hit the trolley.
> (In reply to Denni)
> [...]
>
> or just may be in a car park full of cars reversing you ought to pay a bit more attention to what is happening around you. Strikes me you were both being inattentive
> [...]
>
> or just may be in a car park full of cars reversing you ought to pay a bit more attention to what is happening around you. Strikes me you were both being inattentive
Possibly, but by the time she reversed out and I saw her, she had hit the trolley.
In reply to Denni:
Trouble is the way supermarket car parks are laid out, plus with people coming from all directions you need eyes in the back of your head sometimes to take in all that is going on. Glad she only hit your trolley
Trouble is the way supermarket car parks are laid out, plus with people coming from all directions you need eyes in the back of your head sometimes to take in all that is going on. Glad she only hit your trolley
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Cheers mate. I suppose the most worrying thing to me was that my daughter would have been with me as I'm a stay at home dad and this is part of our routine.
Sheer fluke the wife came home due to staff overload, sheer fluke she caught me just as I was going out the door and of course sheer fluke I didn't take her to the delights of Asda.
> (In reply to Denni)
Glad she only hit your trolleyCheers mate. I suppose the most worrying thing to me was that my daughter would have been with me as I'm a stay at home dad and this is part of our routine.
Sheer fluke the wife came home due to staff overload, sheer fluke she caught me just as I was going out the door and of course sheer fluke I didn't take her to the delights of Asda.
In reply to Denni:
No! No! NO!! It may be a disabled person next time, or a single parent lesbian, or a Martian with no neck, or a person who was born in a car and grew to fit into it, or something, anything other than the actual thing which happened!! No fat woman is a dangerous driver. Don't you know that people are not responsible any more for anything they do?!!?!? If some one does something wrong, then we are not to criticise them, but to find excuses and raise other situations which do not apply to what actually happened, and discuss those instead. How dare you say this woman should be taken out and shot in front of her kids for daring to be fat!
> (In reply to jkarran)
> Do you not agree that if you are that overweight, cannot see what is behind you and need assistance to reverse out of a parking space that it is a recipe for disaster or are you suggesting it is all ok?
No! No! NO!! It may be a disabled person next time, or a single parent lesbian, or a Martian with no neck, or a person who was born in a car and grew to fit into it, or something, anything other than the actual thing which happened!! No fat woman is a dangerous driver. Don't you know that people are not responsible any more for anything they do?!!?!? If some one does something wrong, then we are not to criticise them, but to find excuses and raise other situations which do not apply to what actually happened, and discuss those instead. How dare you say this woman should be taken out and shot in front of her kids for daring to be fat!
In reply to Denni:
This little lad wasn't so lucky.. Dangerous places supermarket car-parks because it is the one place you will meet all varieties of driver, from the very good to the down right terrible.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/boy-9-crushed-supermarket-car-park-030232301.html
This little lad wasn't so lucky.. Dangerous places supermarket car-parks because it is the one place you will meet all varieties of driver, from the very good to the down right terrible.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/boy-9-crushed-supermarket-car-park-030232301.html
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