UKC

A friend of mine recently broke his ankle after hitting the deck. He was clipping the 2nd bolt and slipped. THe unthinkable happened with the 1st QD getting unclipped as he fell. Cue helicopter medi-vac....

So should we all start using a screw gate on the first clip to avoid this unlikely scenario?
Or just take your chances since it is unlikely to happen to you and there's plenty of other ways to injure yourself at the crag?

In reply to robbo99:

If you were clipping the third and the second unclipped, you'd probably deck too. If properly clipped I'd guess it's such a rarity, screwgates seem like a lot of faff

In reply to robbo99: Did he back clip? Was the spine of the carabiner facing in the direction he was going? The first would increase the likelihood hood of the rope unclipping itself, much more than the latter. It could just be a freak accident, but often people don't consider the direction they are going in and point the gate in the same direction of travel.

However, in answer to your question; no.

In reply to robbo99: I have seen leaders use screwgates (particularly on harder grades or when pushing their own). As all routes and personal abilities differ it can only be an assessment made on the day and after close scrutiny of routes. Generally i have found most sport routes to meander (slightly) enough to satisfy the use of a quick draw placed in the correct direction. Good luck to your friend, i hope it is a smooth recovery.

In reply to robbo99: Like others have said,i think the question that needs answering is which way was the spine facing..

In reply to kingborris:

I have decked out when a hold broke clipping the third bolt without any krab failure.

If in doubt I always double draw or screwgate or stickclip.

Too many broken bones over the years, it is sport climbing after all. Its not a faff to me not have 3 months off work.

In reply to cliff shasby:

the rope was running over the spine as he climbed, although clearly the rope must have run (been running?) over the gate as he fell. At least thats why im assuming it happened.

In any case the premise of my question is more about if you think the risk of the first bolt unclipping is sufficient to place a screw gate as a matter of course?

Personally i have never done so, but have found adding a second draw to a clip bolsters my confidence further up a route.

In reply to robbo99: not for me, I will not be using screw gates on first clip.

In reply to robbo99: If the spine was facing the correct way for the direction the climbers was heading i think unclipping is so rare that most peeps would consider it overkill,its hard to imagine how this happened but maybe a stiff/fat rope could whip its way into a gate easier..?

If you were considering doing this i can reccomend the wc neon,nice little lightweight screwgates..

In reply to robbo99:

Neither of the above. We should all continue to use our experience and judgement to decide whether the situation we are in requires any special precautions or not.

I sometimes use two opposed draws for clips I really want to stay clipped - less faff than carrying or rigging a screwgate draw.

In reply to robbo99:

I quite often use a screw-gate on the 1st bolt if I feel the route warrants it - hard 1st moves, high 2nd clip etc.


Chris

In reply to robbo99: The only way then that the rope could have unclipped itself is bad belaying.

As the climber fell the slack was not taken up quick enough, which calls into question how much slack was in the rope, and a bight of rope manifested mid-fall which just so happened to pass over the gate, and unclip. Had the slack been taken up quickly and the rope made taut, the climber would have "pendulum-ed".

In sport climbing peolpe often belay with an incredible amount of slack at the start, so much so that the climber would easily deck from third (or even fourth) clip. This has seemed to become a recent trend on sport climbing.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Agreed.

< To the OP > Shit belaying (sadly, all too common) seems far more pernicious. Like Chris, I'll use a screw-gate on a route with hard moves between the first and second bolt and the possibility of a ground fall. On a trad route, you're prepared to put yourself in the danger zone, if that's what it takes but, as Rick Graham said above, do you really want to injure yourself on a sport route? I know good climbers who routinely clip the second (or even the third) bolt on routes with hard, sustained climbing from the off, to pre-empt any possibility of a ground fall. They're quite open about it; each to their own...

From the bolter's point of view, it can be tricky. For instance on a F7a+ I put up some years ago on Portland, the choice was whether to place the second staple mid-move or higher, from a far better clipping position. I chose the latter. Avoiding a groundfall was still possible with a screw-gate and (very) alert belayer. People climbing harder could certainly clip mid-move but, for someone operating at the grade, pumped, pulling the rope up and fluffing the clip, a ground fall seemed more likely. A tricky decision though. I seem to have got it right but you do agonise about these things.

Mick

In reply to robbo99:


This may not be such a good idea, as it can increase the chance of crab breaking I think?

In reply to michael00693:

I am definitely not an expert, but are you suggesting that the belayer should be able to take in all the rope from the first bolt to the second bolt (where the clip is blown) and then back down to the harness, potentially 3/4m of rope, while the climber is falling?

Or in fact take in any slack at all, beyond a fractional amount by jumping backwards, as a climber unexpectedly falls? Because I sure as hell can't.

For avoidance of doubt, it takes about 0.8 seconds to fall 3m from stationary. You would therefore need to take in slack at about 8mph.