UKC

Many of my all time favourite days out have involved great walking in the Scottish mountains - but with the added zest of a good, tough scramble at some point during the day.
http://highlandscrambler.wordpress.com/
Some of these occasions have involved moments of potential disaster - clinging to damp, precipitous rock with nothing between you and the valley floor 1,500' below.
The feeling at those moments has a different quality compared to how ive felt the few times I have been actual climbing. The reason is obvious : in scrambling there is no safety net! No rope, no comforting harness.
So - is scrambling more dangerous than climbing - and how do you calibrate the degree of risk. It's easy to say "only climb within your limits" but it only takes an attempt on the wrong route, or a slight stumble on a rock to go from 'perfect day' to 'total nightmare'.
Or is this just part of why we love it?

In reply to highland scrambler:
More dangerousnessity" surely

In reply to highland scrambler:


It can be but it depends on how you define scrambling. Is it when you are using your hands and feet to progress up wards? is it scrambling if there is no rope used (or is that soloing?)?

For me, Scrambling is purely a grade of climb and I think that you are ultimately free-soloing an easy climb and the consequences can be pretty dire should things go wrong.

In reply to highland scrambler:


I'm no great shakes as a climber and never have been really. But scrambling more dangerous than climbing?? It depends on your response to perceived risk doesn't it?

I can't think of anything particularly frightening or have ever worried about lobbing off any of the 'scrambles' I've ever done - winter or summer. They simply do not justify a rope IF, and it's a big IF, you've some real experience aand ability at climbing graded climbs.

I normally scramble on my own and do it because you are not encumbered by rope or by a partner.

In reply to highland scrambler:
Scrambling more dangerous than climbing? Damn right!

Little kit, pathetic rope, no anchors.....

In reply to Dave Perry:

You'd be worried if you fell off Bristly ridge or Crib Goch (both Grade 1 scrambles. Both of these are pretty serious in the wet and or wind.

In reply to highland scrambler: I often scramble on my own to, head off route and see where it takes me. On my own, no rope and moving quickly gives me a sense of sureness for some reason. There's no distractions, only focus and it's a good place to be.
Is it more dangerous? I don't know about that, as I take no risks but my risk assessment is not the same as others obviously as sometimes the scrambling turns into soloing. I think scrambling with others is far more dangerous, even at the easy grades as one can be distracted far too easily and all it takes is a slip...

In reply to highland scrambler:

Just because you have a rope and a harness on doesn't make it safe. I don't climb particularly hard but there has been plenty of times (especially low down on routes) when falling off would have had potentially serious consequences and is far more likely. If you climb at a reasonable grade scrambling should never be that dangerous baring a serious mis-reading of a route or very sudden bad weather which can have potentially dire consequences when climbing as well.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

eastern terrace, cloggy, in the rain

you would indeed be worried if you fell off, but it wouldnt last more than a few seconds...

i was much more scared on than any graded climb i've done, and its only a grade 1 scramble

In reply to IanMcC:
Thanks for that Ian! That's what comes of iPad's auto-complete and then checking it on a tiny screen. Couldn't find an edit button to correct the title. Quite like the new word though!

In reply to higherclimbingwales: Indeed.

A traverse of Crib Goch in rain and gales about five years ago is one of the few times I've been genuinely afraid for my life in the hills - in retrospect, we shouldn't have gone across at all (in our defence, it was only fog, and only forecast to be fog, when we set off, and with the fog we couldn't see the oncoming weather which hit us on the ridge).

In reply to highland scrambler:

Yes - most climbers get hurt/killed on easy rock or when soloing. Castle Ridge solo in winter - Do Not Slip!
DC

In reply to highland scrambler:

That nasty sloping slab on Sharp Edge on Blencathra with a dusting of snow or in the wet - that's a nasty spot and I can see why a great many people have come to grief there.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I like Steve Ashton's definition in Scrambles in Snowdonia. Essentially, he suggests that scrambling is picking a logical rock line (ridge, buttress, gully) up a cliff or mountain. As soon as you begin to seek out difficulty for the sake of difficulty, then it becomes climbing.

"The technical interest of the climbing...must be superseded by the wider interests of scenery, position and atmosphere."

In reply to highland scrambler:

It is a very subjective question, but if there is a chance of a slip and you are soloing then yes!

I think the biggest problem with scrambling is the perception of it and the fact that the term "scrambling" should never have been invented, since it is massively underselling routes....

having routes such as the Aonach Eagach graded on a continuous scale as either a "climb" or a grade of a mountaineering route would be much more helful... The american system is much better in my opinion..

If you were to tell the average person in the street that say Cneifion Arete/North Butress of Buchaille Etive is a scramble - and then show them a picture they would be genuinely horrified..

To me there is no distinction between routes like these and actual "climbs" yet the fact that they appear as scrambles can make people think they shouldn't be using gear when in reality most people would probably want some gear on these type of routes..

Abolish the term scrambling these days i say and return then back into the scale of Easy/Moderate/Difficult and if needs be subdivide them into "easy mods" "hard easy" if necessary but have them referred to as climbs then people will know what they are getting into

In reply to bowls: Abolish the term scrambling

How about replacing it with 'Whympering'

In reply to sheep: "climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end." Edmund Whymper

In reply to Mike Peacock:
I also like Steve Ashton's definition in that book - although perhaps 'Scrambles in Snowdonia' should be brought into line with the modern fashion for book titles - how about '100 Places To Die Before You Go'?
Many accept the subjective nature of scramble grading and their own responsibility in committing to a route which might occasionally give opportunity to reflect
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=555873

Definately.

Easier angled so more loose rock about.
Generally more people kicking off loose rocks.
Less people with helmets.
Less people with ropes and gear.

I nearly clocked it on Castle Ridge on Ben Nevis after I strayed off route in big boots, no helmet and no equipment. Couldn't go up or down. A friend had to chuck a rope down for a waist tie-in and I had to drag myself up a hard bit of rock, the rope also dislodged a massive boulder which went screaming past my head by an inch. I'll always take a helmet on busy and loose scrambles like that from now on.

A lot of people have had head impacts from loose rock on the likes of Curved Ridge without helmets.

In reply to sheep:

How about selling it as 'Wild' Scrambling?
Seems the natural companion activity when you're 'wild' camping, and you don't want to go 'wild' swimming' or 'foraging' for 'wild' blackberries.

I'm pretty sure the books would sell to a certain type. Go for it you old hunter- gatherer you!
The opportunities for a self selected cull could free up car parking at the busier 'wilderness' areas..

In reply to Mike Peacock:

Yes indeed - to me, scrambling has always been about traversing a stunning line at an easy-ish technical difficulty, rather than a messy subset of everything between walking and climbing. If planning with a guidebook I tend to pick routes by stars or description, not the grade (indeed ignore the grade until decisions like "should I take a rope"/"should I do this with a novice"/"should I do this in the wet") come into play, and would always rather scramble a 3-star grade 1 than a no-star grade 3. Compare this to the mindset of climbing, where stars are often a way of picking which routes at a pre-chosen grade (or grade range) to do first.

w.r.t. grading them, I've got used to the overlay with climbing grades, so don't mind that, but get confused with winter grades (certainly when spoken aloud) - a grade III winter is a very different proposition to a grade 3 scramble, even if they follow the same line (e.g. Aonach Eagach, which is a serious II in winter or a pleasant stroll of a 2 in summer)...

Not sure scrambling should be folded into climbing, gradewise, though, because it'll put walkers off (I know a lot of people who happily scramble at grade 2 or 3 who would refuse to do the same route if told it was a Mod 'climb'), or encourage some people of less experience to pitch the whole thing, because it's called a climb (which will be both dangerously and frustratingly slow). It's also a different skillset to a certain degree, even if a rope is used (with techniques of moving together, impromptu belays and others), that would be hidden if merely called Easy (which it isn't necessarily) or Mod. And of course the presumed exposure and assumed lack of pro make a Mod/3 scramble a much more serious undertaking than a Diff or VDiff climb, no matter that the moves are easier!

In reply to highland scrambler:

There is a lot wider spectrum in climbing: at its single pitch cragging safest pretty much the only dangers are self inflicted. At the other extreme of Himalayan face climbs you are pretty much in the lap of the Gods as far as I can tell.

Scrambling even at its least serious definately isn't something to take lightly

In reply to maxsmith:

Edmund?

In reply to hokkyokusei: never is a mistake unpunished on ukc

In reply to Tom Last:

I've known a few VS grade rock climbers who have backed off that in the wet. I found it spooky in the dry, I just don't trust that polished slate.

In reply to maxsmith:

Sorry

On the subject of wet/snowy slabs - To anyone who frequents Stob coire nan Lochan in the winter - that stupid slab half way up to the coire always gives me grief crossing it if snowy or icy!

In reply to Milesy:


Agreed, it's nails with thin cover, probably tech 5. I've given serious thought to bolting on a handrail.

In reply to Jamie B:

Does anyone still wear tricounis?

In reply to Jamie B:

I found it hardest when there was a really hard frost right down low and the bypass above it was iced up and crampons not on yet. We had to set up a wee belay last year for taking some folk from our club up for the first time to the coire.

In reply to highland scrambler:

My observation is that there have been a number of accidents in Scotland, some fatal, on easy rock climbs in scrambling books. So if you mean soloing an easy rock climb as scrambling, then the answer must be yes.

In reply to Tom Last:

Is that near the end of Sharp Edge? I always prefer to go round to the left - far more exposure but proper holds and you can go right over the obstacle if you wish, even in snow.

In reply to highland scrambler: reckon scrambling can be dangerous but hell that's why it gives you that buzz .!

In reply to sheelba: re "apart from serious misreading of a route... Should be ok".
I think thats the crux of the problem. Most people are scrambling a route for the first time - and even if you've read route descriptions beforehand it's impossible to always select the 'correct line'. Aonach eagach is the perfect example. No first timer, without local guidance, would know which route is an ok grade 2 - and which chimney leads to an ever-more challenging and exposed dead end (excuse the phrase).
I guess that's exactly the conundrum : we're doing this partly for the excitement, but were also assuming that we can always pick out a route which stays within our competency.

In reply to highland scrambler:

Repetition breeds familiarity and, quite often, familiarity breeds contempt!

In reply to highland scrambler:
It's a mountain- not a recipe book!

Oh dear- it was dangerous- It didn't live up to my expectations.

Think of you guide description as being like the weather forecast and YOUR expectations might be a little more reasonable.

In reply to llechwedd: oooh! that's a bit harsh!
Check out the link to my 'highland scrambler' blog and you'll see that my expectations ARE for something challenging.
I'm not looking for way-marked routes and positively seek out the ridges which I know will extend my comfort zone and improve my technique.
My point is that, in doing so, we are continuously pushing the envelope in terms of consequence. It's all about balancing the challenge and risk vs the sense of achievement and exhilaration derived.

In reply to highland scrambler:

Aonach Eagach has a well worn footpath along the whole length.

In reply to bowls:
>>Abolish the term scrambling these days I say and return then back into the scale of Easy/Moderate/Difficult and if needs be subdivide them into "easy mods" "hard easy" if necessary but have them referred to as climbs then people will know what they are getting into.

>> That is very practical idea. There are so many "scrambles" where the difficulty reaches low trad. climbing grades so they should be described as such. Looking at scrambling sites and photos there are more scramblers carrying ropes than when scrambling started with grades. Also many scrambling routes have become more dangerous because of the traffic, so they should be absorbed into the trad. grading system. Only routes recognised as scrambles and graded should be included in this, or else we will have people wanting an easy or mod grade for simple strolls.

In reply to highland scrambler:

I read your blog and there are some nice photo's on it, but wasn't a fan of the written content.
The Aonach Eagach is a magnificent ridge walk (and scramble), but you tell us it is 'Scotland's ultimate scramble' before you attempt it. How do you know, did someone tell you? Does that make it your ultimate scottish scramble (if there was ever, god forbid, consensus that such a thing existed)?
Also on your blog- 'Beinn Eighe- the greatest wild swimming in the world?'

I find it depressing the way in which an increasing number of people view a grand day out in the countryside as needing reports with shouty, one dimensional epithets. It's all a bit 'Jamie Oliver/ Tesco's Finest/100 places to see before you die' sort of stuff.


Up-post, you suggest that, on the Aonach Eagach, no first timer will know which route is Ok without local guidance.
I would counter by saying that an element of route uncertainty should be taken as a given. For the non-climber, I would suggest that what underpins consistency in scrambling is not so much physical prowess as an ability to read the mountain. I would argue that this 'intuitive' skill 'happens' by playing in the mountains, and not being too goal focussed.
Having said that,it doesn't guarantee you'll finish your route though.

If you're goal focussed then you'll get a guide. you will then be able to say that you've 'done' the Aonach Eagach. Why not save it until you're ready and do something else?

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We're not continuously pushing. You may be. I can't speak for others but I'm playing in the hills and sometimes coming unstuck. That's how I see it anyway.

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