/ Win 7 vs Win 8

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Lord of Starkness - on 21 Oct 2013
My faithful old pc (XP) is starting to show its age, and I've had a number of issues lately with unexplained crashes and very slow running.

I can't afford a MAC and most of my software is for Windows OS anyway

As my monitor is fairly new, I am just considering a new base unit but knowing Microsoft's reputation for mediocrity - particularly with new release software are there any real benefits of opting for the newer Win 8 over the better established Win 7?
ByEek - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

> As my monitor is fairly new, I am just considering a new base unit but knowing Microsoft's reputation for mediocrity

It is a long time since 2001 when XP was launched. Windows 7 is very good and stable with a similar look and feel to XP. Personally, I really like Windows 8 and don't really understand many of the objections to it. That said, there are some rather disappointing glitches in the latest 8.1 release.
Only a hill - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Until the 8.1 update I was generally a fan of Windows 8. I only really use the desktop side of things, but the desktop has actually been substantially improved over Windows 7.

Then I update to 8.1 and it has caused no end of problems to my PC. I have gone back to using the Windows 7 partition.
ex0 - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

> As my monitor is fairly new, I am just considering a new base unit but knowing Microsoft's reputation for mediocrity - particularly with new release software are there any real benefits of opting for the newer Win 8 over the better established Win 7?

Not sure what your monitor has to do with anything, but if you're just buying a tower go with win7. You won't have to work around the annoying bugs and problems that still persist in win8 and it'll feel just like XP did.

There's no benefits for going to win8.

Chris the Tall - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
The general reaction of experienced users to Windows 7 is that is a natural evolution to the Windows family and that you quickly get used to it.

The reaction to Windows 8 seems to be "What the f**k have they done", "Where the f**k has everything gone", and "How the f**k do I go back to proper Windows".

My views are that Win8 may work better on a tablet or with a touchscreen, but otherwise it seems a huge step backwards - getting rid of the fundamental point of Windows - Windows !!! i.e. the ablity to have multiple windows arranged across you screen (yes I know you can still do this, but it seems designed to make it really awkward)

Then again, if you are planning on getting a new box and have a bit of time, it might be worth going for Win 8 as at some point Microsoft will stop support for each OS, and so Win 8 will last a couple of years longer.

Just allocate yourself a fair bit of time to get used to it, and have a big supply of stress balls handy
Rob Exile Ward on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to ex0: I guess the monitor isn't a touch screen, which is supposed to be beneficial for Windows 8...

I had a Windows 8 laptop, I gave up after a couple of weeks and gave it to my daughter! (Who needed one anyway and loves it.) I got myself a (cheaper) laptop running Windows 7 and I'm very happy with it.
felt - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

My feeling is that if no one knew what they were they using no one would bother much. It's all the same 1s and 0s at the end of the day. Give it a name, 'Windows 7', OS 'whathaveyou', and people feel that they have to have an opinion on it. It's all marketing gimmicry bollocks.

I've used Windows 3, 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP and 7 and haven't noticed a blind bit of difference, to be perfectly honest. Word seems to work in all of them.
Neil Williams - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

If you install Classic Shell it looks pretty much the same as 7.

Neil
Lord of Starkness - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Thanks to all -- It's what I thought -- new tower and Win 7 it is.

I'm not in to gaming so don't need superfast graphics so will probably go for one with a decent HDD (1Tb) and 6 or 8 gb of RAM - it's mostly for work, a bit of CAD and graphics, photo and home video editing, and lurking on places like UKC.

As long as my old PC and HDD haven't died I should be able to transfer all my important stuff over without difficulty.
BigBrother - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> - getting rid of the fundamental point of Windows - Windows !!! i.e. the ablity to have multiple windows arranged across you screen

Only if you choose to use windows apps. Normal programs use windows as in previous versions. The only real difference with 8 is the start menu is full screen which some people seem to have difficulty with.

I upgraded to 8 from XP and haven't had a problem yet. To be honest I like it and am really struggling to understand why some people are so anti it. Although I have to admit that I spend most of my time using linux. The main problem with 8 is that it feels half finished and inconsistent.
Neil Williams - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to BigBrother:

"To be honest I like it and am really struggling to understand why some people are so anti it"

Because I like a hierarchical, organised menu of applications, not a scrolling screen with everything on it. It's almost as bad as if you used Win3.1 with a single program group.

Neil
Chris the Tall - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> If you install Classic Shell it looks pretty much the same as 7.
>
> Neil

I installed it on a virtual machine to check that my software runs on it - that was enough to put me off using it for work
Only a hill - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
Coming from a Mac background, I'm one of the people who always hated the Start menu and simply pinned apps to the taskbar instead (which you can still do in Windows 8). I'll hold my hand up and admit I never use the Start screen, but you can simply ignore it and carry on as you did before. Windows 8 is a lot faster and more efficient than 7 (until the 8.1 update caused so many problems, that is!)
a lakeland climber on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to BigBrother)
>
> "To be honest I like it and am really struggling to understand why some people are so anti it"
>
> Because I like a hierarchical, organised menu of applications, not a scrolling screen with everything on it. It's almost as bad as if you used Win3.1 with a single program group.

Yuch! Such a restrictive way of looking at things.

At home I've a Mac and apart from the main programs that I use everything else is started via spotlight - Cmd+space then start typing the name of the program - usually it appears at the top of the list in a couple of letters. You can get similar behaviour on Windows via the Windows Key + 'R'

The same applies to documents - not bothered what I called it, just type in something that might be in the document and it is listed.

ALC

winhill - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Why is your current PC running very slow?

There was an update to XP beginning of September that borked the update process and left an svchost process eating 100% of the CPU.

There are a few solutions if you google it, worth sorting out for whoever you pass the old one onto.

My daughter just got a win8 laptop with touchscreen and I got lost on it straight away but she loves it, without a touchscreen use a different shell and it sorts it out.
mbh - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

I need to update my desktop pc from XP Windows 7. What is the best way to do this? ie where should I get it from?
IPPurewater on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I bought a new PC from www.overclockers.co.uk recently.

Very good level of service and reasonable prices too.

Ian
Kipper - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Only a hill:
> ... (until the 8.1 update caused so many problems, that is!)

What are these 8.1 problems? (I've had a few, but just want to tick the others off).

Enty - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Kipper:

I don't know either. I like my W8.

E
The Lemming - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to mbh:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)
>
> I need to update my desktop pc from XP Windows 7. What is the best way to do this? ie where should I get it from?

eBuyer is where I would go, and have done. :-)

http://www.ebuyer.com/
Jim Fraser - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Windows 8 is the work of the devil. If you are not very productive with computers, or its just a play thing for videos and photos, then maybe 8 won't slow you down too much. If you want to do lot's of varied work at a reasonable pace then think it is a complete waste of time.

Some of my work can involve sifting through loads of video frames and then 8 on a touch-screen is bearable. For everything else it's an obstruction. My Android phone is as useful and much lighter.

Windows 7 is on three of the computers that I regularly use and it is usefully able. If set up properly, like XP Pro all fixed, plus some nice modern tools. Maybe still a bit toytown in the 'Home' versions but still useful.

The interface created by Microsoft in 1995 was a work of genius. XP and 7 are worthy successors. Life in the old dog yet.
Bobling - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> The reaction to Windows 8 seems to be "What the f**k have they done", "Where the f**k has everything gone", and "How the f**k do I go back to proper Windows".

Closely followed by "oh there's the desktop, I can just ignore that weird start screen now" I am mostly OK with 8 now and only have occasional moments of irritation when it thinks I've swiped somewhere with my mouse and want some sort of weird menu up, or sometimes when I fall down through the corners of the screen to somewhere else.
dsh - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Fraser:
> (In reply to Lord of Starkness)
>
> Windows 8 is the work of the devil. If you are not very productive with computers, or its just a play thing for videos and photos, then maybe 8 won't slow you down too much. If you want to do lot's of varied work at a reasonable pace then think it is a complete waste of time.

Only if you're stuck in your ways. If you're sensible and get the program you want by typing the name in and switch between windows with alt+tab it's much faster. Much quicker than scrolling through menus or moving the mouse to switch windows. It's also quicker and more responsive in general. I haven't had any problems with 8.1 either. People moaned when they added ribbons to office but once you get used to them they're more intuitive than the old menus.

For me the only annoying thing is it's another OS we have to test our software on and support. I can't wait until they drop support for windows XP.

http://xkcd.com/1172/
Jonny2vests - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to felt:
> (In reply to Lord of Starkness)
>
> I've used Windows 3, 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP and 7 and haven't noticed a blind bit of difference, to be perfectly honest. Word seems to work in all of them.

Unfortunately for some of us, there's more to computing than Word. Win 98 and ME were almost in jokes they were so bad, normal market forces would have killed Microsoft had they not been allowed to build such a monopoly.

For me, any OS which means that the machine will never run as fast as the first time you switch it on is a fail. Inside every Windows box, there's a linux box trying to get out.
Jim Fraser - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to felt)
> [...]
>
> Unfortunately for some of us, there's more to computing than Word.

CORRECT.

Around 100 applications on this machine, including 7 or 8 types of CAD, 5 browsers, 4 office suites, numerous video utilities and numerous advanced system utilities. (And yet 2 of the most commonly used are Notepad and calculator!)


> ... Win 98 and ME were almost in jokes they were so bad, normal market forces would have killed Microsoft had they not been allowed to build such a monopoly.

Win98SE machine sitting in the corner here for the times when the new machines aren't as backward compatible as I'd like.
Jonny2vests - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Fraser:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Win98SE machine sitting in the corner here for the times when the new machines aren't as backward compatible as I'd like.

Enjoy (bleurrgh). You obviously have your reasons :-)
Lord of Starkness - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

I'm about due a new 'puter anyway -- I've had my current one since 2007 and everytime there's a new Windows 'security' fix for XP it seems to run slower, crash, or I have to do a system restore.

I guess over the years there's been a load of unwanted crap that's found its way on to the machine due to various software and hardware additions and trials that the uninstall process hasn't completely eradicated.

I'm getting very tempted by an Acer Aspire all in one with a 23" (non touch) screen at 450 from PCworms that runs W8 with 4gb Ram and a 1Tb HDD. It will clear a lot of space on my desk - and allow me to keep my current monitor as a second screen that will prove very helpful when multitasking between drawings. I will hopefully be able to work AND watch the cycling on Eurosport player simultaneously! As UKC fantasy champion I do have certain standards to maintain!
TOS on 22 Oct 2013 - static-b5-250-241.telepac.pt
In reply to felt:
> (In reply to Lord of Starkness)
>
> I've used Windows 3, 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP and 7 and haven't noticed a blind bit of difference, to be perfectly honest.

I used to think exactly the same, until I bought a new laptop with Win 8.

The best way of comparing it to what's gone before, is saying it's like buying a new car where the steering wheel has been replaced with a joystick... the indicators are operated by waving your hands at the corners of the windscreen... the volume control to the stereo also starts up the satnav... to turn the engine off, you have to go into the glove box. Etc etc

My dislike of this OS isn't down to some geeky nit-picking, it's because it incorporates so many new and radical features at once (virtually all of them hinder proper work) it's impossible to use.

If W8 is so good, why are so many software companies offering 'fixes'?

After 3months, I gave up and bought a new W7 laptop a shop had hiding in their backroom cupboard.
Lord of Starkness - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Fraser:

All of my software ( and some of it is very old that used to run on Win95)runs happily on XP -- I don't want to have to go to the expense and hassle of getting new software because Win8 doesn't like the old stuff. I've heard of backwards compatibility issues with Win8 compared to Win7. I've also heard of Win8 not liking some older printers and other peripherals.


A friend of mine who's pretty high up in the tech side of Sun / Oracle always reckoned that Microsoft was nothing more than a triumph of mediocrity.
dissonance - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

> A friend of mine who's pretty high up in the tech side of Sun / Oracle always reckoned that Microsoft was nothing more than a triumph of mediocrity.

coming from someone working for Oracle?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Lord of Starkness - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to dissonance:
> (In reply to Lord of Starkness)
>
> [...]
>
> coming from someone working for Oracle?

At the time I first met him he was a senior systems architect with Sun - only dealing with large corporate installations and mainframes. He knows more than a bit about stuff. Since them he's been promoted a number of times -- and is also a pretty damn good climber!
Lord of Starkness - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Thanks to everyone for their input.

I've also had a word with the guys in our office. Most of the office desktops now run Win7 and there are no backwards compatibility issues with the main programs we run ( Autocad 2007, Office 2000, Adobe CS3 - plus a couple of very old 'proprietary' design packages). They've tried running some of the programs on a newer laptop with Win8 and had some issues.

A Windows 7 model it is going to be -- now just a case of finding the right 'all in one' with some decent reliability reviews
Enty - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness:

I replaced my PC last month after the HD failed.

I got my new Dell with W8 (after mixed reviews I made my own choice) and it's amazing.
Fastest computer I've ever used. From boot up to be able to work is a matter of a few seconds.
Photoshop is ready to go in about 5 seconds.
W8 is tricky at first - but I just click the left hand corner and go to normal desktop and I have everything there anyway.
I like the W8 page - I have Zune to look after my music, which I like, so no need for the godforsaken itunes.
For techie stuff, hover on the right of the screen and settings appears - easy!
I haven't noticed any glitches at all.

E
Lord of Starkness - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

Looks like I'll have to go with 7 due to work related compatibility issues. Have you seen how much the latest version of Autocad is? I work for a fairly small company, and we don't even use half the features of ACAD 2007 so there's no point in spending 5000 for a new multiple user upgrade licence just so that it runs on a half baked OS.

Like most Microsoft operating systems that have gone before it will probably take until about 6 months before they release Windows9 before they get the glitches in Windows 8 sorted
Jonny2vests - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

Does it not want to install updates every 10 minutes?

It will get slower. This is in part due to the mind boggolingly stupid way Windows (any version) writes to the hard disk.
Darren Jackson - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to dissonance:
>
> coming from someone working for Oracle?

Do you really consider Oracle to be a mediocre database? As opposed to what?... Access!?!
1poundSOCKS - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests: The Windows 8 updates are annoying, they take ages. If I can only find out how to switch them off!
Jonny2vests - on 22 Oct 2013
Kipper - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
>
> Fastest computer I've ever used. From boot up to be able to work is a matter of a few seconds.

This is the main thing - it's very noticeable compared to previous Windows versions.

As an aside, it seems you can no longer get an upgrade licence from Microsoft (since 8.1 came out this week). It seems it only lets you go straight to 8.1 at full cost from the Microsoft website. Amazon are selling a Windows 8 Pro upgrade for 56 at the moment.
dissonance - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:

> Do you really consider Oracle to be a mediocre database? As opposed to what?... Access!?!

Their dbs they just make a nightmare. Its the other stuff they ballsed up, particularly from sun, I was thinking off though.
1poundSOCKS - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests: Ta.
Orgsm on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to dsh:
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
> [...]
>
> Only if you're stuck in your ways. If you're sensible and get the program you want by typing the name in and switch between windows with alt+tab it's much faster.

Which you can do in Windows 7 , that's not new in Win 8!

Jim Fraser - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Beat me to it!:
> (In reply to dsh)
> [...]
>
> Which you can do in Windows 7 , that's not new in Win 8!

7? Hasn't that been around forever. The only difference is that in 8 some things now have easier names.
Kipper - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Kipper:
>
> As an aside, it seems you can no longer get an upgrade licence from Microsoft (since 8.1 came out this week). It seems it only lets you go straight to 8.1 at full cost from the Microsoft website. Amazon are selling a Windows 8 Pro upgrade for 56 at the moment.

Just done this (on a PC with a touch screen from 7, the laptop has had 8 for a long time). It went fine, and it's reminded me of the other advantage, as a normal user, that if you've a Windows Live account and other devices (computers, XBOX, Surface etc.) it's quite useful.

dsh - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Beat me to it!:
> (In reply to dsh)
> [...]
>
> Which you can do in Windows 7 , that's not new in Win 8!

Right but they were complaining about not being able to scroll through endless menus slowing them down, I was saying they don't need too.
Toerag - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Lord of Starkness: I have a W8 laptop coutesy of my missus who got it to replace her old mac and couldn't get on with it. the guy in the shop put classic shell on it straight away and it seems to be OK - I think a lot of people would be more receptive to it if they were shown how to work it properly. Anyhow, what's with windows 8.1? I went to see about downloading it and the windows site said I'll be prompted to upgrade - it hasn't done so yet.
1poundSOCKS - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Toerag: You go to the Windows store, but I think it's been withdrawn anyway due to 'issues'.
Kipper - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
> (In reply to Toerag) You go to the Windows store, but I think it's been withdrawn anyway due to 'issues'.

Was I think (for RT issues; I'm still waiting for someone up-thread to tell us what issues they had) but I believe it's back now.



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