UKC

Anyone doing that that or has been home-schooled themselves? I am starting to think of maybe doing that with our child. At least for the first few years. I never liked school, found it utterly boring. What are the pros and cons (preferably from those with experience rather than preconceptions). I have got an undergrad, postgrad and Phd degree and speak a few languages in case people criticise the lack of qualification) and I would get my kid to have loads of other activities with pals (as he is doing now) in addition to loads of outdoor activities

Any thoughts?

In reply to Heike:

i know kids and adults who have done either and both, and have turned out the full spectrum of humans, from brilliant to maladjusted.
id think about looking into different schools before going with the home option, you may find one that isnt as boring as you found it. id base it on your kids perspective, not your own from decades ago.

if you can still provide a better option then do it. it may be harrd tho, especially the social stuff. despite efforts to make up for it, life is random - often with ugly lessons - and most kids deal with it and move on. id have loathed having my parents designing my social experience for me.

then again, the education system leaves much to be desired too.

In reply to ice.solo:
It's a guessing game isn't it. My hubby hated school because he was bullied mainly, but did very well anyways. I hated it because it was very boring, I did reasonably well anyways, but always thought what a waste of time. Of course our wee man might just love it! But in addition, you have to adhere to all the school timetables, have to pick up kids at three o'clock which is bloody impossible with my kind of work, etc. Schooling is so family-unfriendly. Might as well do it myself (that's what I am thinking) although I do not want to leave any social or whatever-other scars on my child)

I have had loads of nieces going through the schooling process recently with very good results, basically I think kids get a good result because of the stuff they do back home.Yes I am sure there are exceptions, but I think the ones who don't get any back-up back home will have a much harder fare.

Heike

In reply to ice.solo: To reply to your statement 'I wouldn't be doing it because of my educational perspective', the reason I would be considering it is because of our current family situation and education in society, nothing else, really.

In reply to Heike: Surely the con is that you have them at home all day during the week?!

Aye, right , that is very true and possibly the greatest stumbling point!!! Because I am not the most patient person on the planet...!

In reply to Heike:

Loved school, recently graduated.

Depends on the person / peers.

In reply to Heike:

I guess I don't have any experience but I have thought about this myself. I've often considered taking the family on a year long adventure and wondered how it would affect their education. I've come to the conclusion that the experience would outweigh the lack of formal teaching and, in any case, I've realised just how little time is spent actually teaching core subjects. Also, the one on one time is more productive.

The downside is that my kids don't listen well to me and both really like school.

In reply to Heike:
basically I think kids get a good result because of the stuff they do back home.Yes I am sure there are exceptions, but I think the ones who don't get any back-up back home will have a much harder fare.
i think thats what its all about.

you sound switched on to it all and smart - far more so than some friends who choose to HS for weird reasons - and far more than many 30 year old teachers. i should have mentioned my brother in law was home schooled, including trips to places like greece and rome for history lessons, and tho unusual is profoundly intelligent and social.

try it i suppose. take the experiment on and if it goes awry reintegration should be ok. narrowness f*cks kids up, not diversity of experience.

In reply to Heike:

'i know kids and adults who have done either and both, and have turned out the full spectrum of humans, from brilliant to maladjusted.'
Nail on the head by Ice Solo

But FWIW -school gets my vote because over and above the core subjects it provides a social grounding with peers, teachers and other parents which i believe is really valuable and for most kids very enjoyable.

In reply to Heike:

Home schooled kids were always a little different in my childhood recollection, not good or bad but different.

I went to a few schools (including boarding), for a few reasons. There was a huge difference in experience between each school.

While I had a shit time in school some of the time, am glad I went.

I don't think I'd have coped well with the lack of large break each day from ones parent(s) if I was home schooled. The churn of teachers through school keeps things interesting. (And you'll never hang out with so many people of the same age and opposite sex again.)

I wouldn't and am educationally in a similar position. I would rather they were taught by a wider number of teachers. I'll help out if they have the frustration I had when the teachers didn't know the answers to some questions, but I'm glad I went through the normal route rather than taking my 11 plus at 7. We had someone who'd done that on my course at my college - university and cheap alcohol at 14 did not prove to be a good combination.

In reply to Heike: my husband was home schooled to age 11 and was happy with it. As others have said, giving them a breadth of experience is important. It can be great as it doesn't need to be too formal, you can be creative and interesting about how they learn things. Someone mentioned about them socialising with kids the same age - to me this seems one of the down sides. You don't necessarily have anything in common with others just because of when you were born, and you end up with a very narrow view of who you can socialise with. Home educated kids seem much better adjusted to socialising with different age and backgrounds in my experience.

In reply to Heike:

Let me get this right. You have been educated to a very high level but think the original building blocks were boring. As such you now wish to deny your child the opportunity to be educated to a similar level?

Bizarre if you ask me......

In reply to Heike: I'm pretty good at maths, but have always been useless at relaying even the most simple information to my daughter.

I think it's a bad idea, mainly for social reasons, but also because of the fact that you knowing stuff does not automatically equate to you being able to teach it to your child.

In reply to Heike: I've never met anyone who's been home schooled so largely uninformed, however, in the ukc spirit of things I'll chuck my two penneth worth in and say think it's a bad idea for three reasons:

1 - You know you're kids better than any teacher and because of that are probably in a unique position to give them exactly what they need to learn in the best way for them. If they go to school, some of the teachers will be good, some will be bad, none of them will be able to spend the same amount of time on them and they wont always be able to learn in the way that suits them best. In other words, they'll have to get by with what they have and adapt to it, which is an incredibly valuable life skill.

2 - as others have said, socialising is important. Girlymonkey hit the nail on the head when she said that "You don't necessarily have anything in common with others just because of when you were born", but imo she's wrong about it giving you a narrow view of who you can socialise with, it's the opposite. Being forced to socialise with people from different backgrounds to yourself is going to broaden the child's idea of who they can socialise with, not narrow it. Life's full of uncertainty, they might meet other kids they get on really well with that you'd never have been able to introduce them to if you organised their social learning.

3 - Kids are horrible to each other, any weakness, any difference and they'll get ripped to pieces by bullies. If you plan to get them into school when they're older I imagine they'll be more likely to get picked on. Whenever your kids go to school it's going to be hard for them, better get it over with while they're young so they can learn to cope with how school works over the next half decade or so without having to deal with it for the first time at high school.

If you're intelligent enough to give your kids learning experiences outside of school and you give your kids a loving environment at home then they'll have the best of both worlds, school and home.

In reply to Sharp:

Totally think the social element is contextual. In fact all of it is. I wouldn't want my kids to socialise with the types of children I went to school with. They were morons and largely unpleasant. 95% have ended up exactly as expected. I would prefer home schooling for my children over sending them to the school I went to.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

I don't know about the OP but I am educated to a very high level despite the building blocks of my junior school. Complete waste of time that set my learning back by several years.

I know quite a few people who got good GCSEs despite their senior schools - thanks to an hour or two an evening with a parent going over the core subjects. For the OP: consider this as an option - cheaper than a private tutor, and if your kids turn out bright and their school manages to actually teach - as opposed to child sit and provide crowd control - then it seems a few hours of focused tuition can massively boost things.

The most attractive side of home schooling - to me - would be the eliination of a sick and twisted RE class whose main intent is to jesusify your children. You could reach a proper RE class that starts with the sky gods of old and moved through the ages.

Also I would disagree with your comment that the (state) school system educates to a very high level. A well suited kid could probably be 2-3 years ahead by age 17, well into first year undergrad material of a STEM degree. It's almost impossible to do this within the school system as there are no routes to faster progressipn and little support. Myself and some friends were lucky that one teacher donated an hour of their time a week to teach Further Maths at A-level. Everyone got good results. None of us were being pushed in any way at any point by any of the other subjects. For a lot of the best kids sixth form is like having to run through treacle. What with the politically motivated agenda against streaming it's probably got worse.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

only Mr Gove would disagree with you there.

In reply to SARS:

We have a large proportion of our political class that never experienced going to school with "the types of children [you] went to school with" and there's nothing wrong with firing out little Nick Cleggs and David Camerons if that's what you want but there are other ways your kids can get the most out of life as well.

I had friends at school who were way, way below the poverty line and plenty that were from wealthier backgrounds than mine as well (not too hard!). I had people bully me and (regrettably) bullied others, had people pick on me and beat me up, spent times not learning because there were too many people f*cking about, avoided learning and f*cked about myself so I didn't get called a swat. But school isn't all about accademic achievement, I had a laugh with people as well, kids I probably wouldn't have met through my family and I'm very grateful that I got to experience it, despite moving schools a lot and having some rough times. It's good for you.

Yes there are unpleasant people in the world and your kids will meet some of them at school, if you want your kids to grow up in a vacuum then home school them for a few years and send them to Eton. Nothing wrong with that but in my opinion it's not the best way to give someone a well rounded view on what life in this country is like.

In reply to wintertree:
>A well suited kid could probably be 2-3 years ahead by age 17, well into first year undergrad material of a STEM degree.

F*cking hell, shouldn't they be partying and having fun at 17 not a few years away from graduating? From a reasonably well off background they're probably going to be living for another 70 odd years and have 50-60 years of work ahead of them. What's the hurry?

In reply to Sharp:

You miss the point - some of the brighter kids could quite happily run 2 years ahead by 17 and sill have time to run around and have fun. It only involved doing 1/3rd more per year.
A lot of the brightest people get boored sh*tless with the pace of things - they don't need to devote more time than others, just do more with it. It's not hurrying, it's just learning what you can in the time you have. Strange as it sounds plenty of people actually want to do that.

In reply to wintertree:

Every kid's different and I'm not saying no one should be home schooled. You say there's a massive middle ground (which there is of course) but you also compare going to school with habitually forcing your child to be abused. I think you're ignoring the middle ground and using a single example of severe bullying to try and make state schooling appear worse than it is....scaremongering imo.

Yes, of course no kid should be bullied, no one should be but they probably will be whatever you do and if you think you can prevent that by sheltering your kids from school then you're mistaken. At nursery, primary school, high school, university or the world of work, whenever you let them out into the world they're going to be at risk of being bullied. They are however, unlikely to be assaulted to the degree that gives them broken bones. I think most people considering home schooling will probably be in the position to pick a state school that is perfectly suited to giving their kids a happy and social childhood.

In reply to wintertree:

I'm at a loss at how you can predict that for a child that is 4 years old when you're choosing to home school them. State school (or any school tbh) is never going to fit every kids needs but I don't see that as outweighing the benefits that state schooling can bring and I personally wouldn't choose to home school someone on the off chance that they might not be stretched enough a decade down the line.

Most kids find getting straight A's a challenge enough without learning undergrad degree material at 17, you're talking about a very small number of children.

In reply to Sharp:

Sorry I hit delete on my post by mistake - tiny buttons on a mobile phone.


Not round here. Until it was finally shut the school had a 25% pass rate at 5Cs or above. That was reflected in the non academic side of the school. I'm not for home schooling but I do see that there are state schools that just are not good places at all which is where I chimed in on this sub discussion. Some of them are just rotten places and sending your kid there because it's old for them to socialise is like saying everyone should do a stint in jail to meet all sorts.

In reply to Heike:

Won't your work get in the way of home schooling too?

In reply to Sharp:


Many of them find it challenging because of a deeply sub-standard education up to the start of their a-levels. On the other hand it wasn't a "very small" fraction of people at my state sixth from who weren't challenged, it was perhaps 15%. Maybe that's atypical.

In reply to wintertree: I guess there are some schools in deprived areas you might not want your kids to go to, leaving work to home school them for 12 years is an option, moving house is another.

I'm not sure if this is accurate but I'm making the assumption that a large proportion of people considering home schooling don't live in deprived areas and probably have access to good state schools.

I'm sure home schooling suits some kids better, but I still think they'd be missing out as well, for the reasons I outlined initially.

In reply to wintertree:

Interesting and hugely debarable point. How can you possibly know you would be more educated now if you hadn't attended the junior school you did? How do you know the lessons you learnt there aren't of huge importance to you now regardless of whether they were not formally taught?

You are who you are because of the sum experiences of your life. That includes your junior school, like it or not i am sure you learned enormous lessons there which will stay with you for the rest of your life.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


It's not really debatable. Just changing schools saw my writing ability go up from someone 5 years below my age to above normal. Similar storey for many other abilities. I can take account of the skills and abilities I have that are important now, and I can tell you they developed later on, and that was a painful experience.

There are - or were - schools out there that totally fail kids.

In reply to winhill:

Yeah, I would give up my work!


In reply to others, very many interesting points. Cheers
guys, Keep your ideas/experiences coming.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

I might be educated to a good level, but certainly wouldn't say that this is thanks to my school, more despite it...My primary school from age 6-10 was fine, but I could already read and do basic maths as I had older brother and sisters from whom I learned....
Secondary school was dire, boring, uninspiring and demotivating (apart from perhaps the last two years where I had some great teachers)! However the intervening 7 years were a waste of time, I just read what I wanted. Once I got to University, things were so much better....So, I am not denying anything, I am thinking whether I could improve the situation for my child.

In reply to Heike:

Interesting some people seem to think some years at school were a waste of time. How can 'time' be wasted....makes no sense to me. Given you have a PhD how exactly do you envisage home educating your child will result in them being better educated? What about your education do you think you missed out on and how will home educating address those issues?

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

agreed. time at school was never wasted. it may not have been spent on things the school intended, but certainly never wasted.
in hindsight, school stuff only accounts for maybe a third of what i gained from school. the social compression accounted for a lot, and not just the exposure to others, but the weird spin offs like underground porn, homemade explosives and meeting kids with families from other cultures.
along with that, developing an attitude towards authority mattered a lot. im glad my parents didnt represent that sort of authority too, and tho i didnt really upset the boat, it was good to have a glimpse at govt employees either inspired or crushed by the system.

i valued too the ability to leave, both each day and eventually forever. not sure if blurring those lines would have worked for me. but if switched on, im sure a parent could make it work.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


Tell you what, you try being 7 years old, unable to write and slow at reading, and go to a school that refuses to recognize that some people need more help to get started with these things. Thn try staying there for another 3 years whilst this is ignored and you are branded a thicko. See what that does to your learning, self confidence and so on. Those years werent just wasted, they were destructive and counter productive.

God save a kid with some form of dyslexia who is sent to the wrong school because - even with helpful parents - without a little bit of the right help they're being consigned to developmental failure.
 

In reply to Heike:

One of our friends home schools her twins who are now 7. This is what she thinks as we have discussed it a few times so not my immediate experiences but hers and I hope you don't mind, but my opinion as well based on her experiences.

She freely admits to struggling with it. She finds it difficult to "teach" them all day. They go out quite a lot to the park and learn stuff that way, museums etc etc but to try and get them to sit down to learn all day in a made up garage classroom Isn't ideal. She has converted her garage into a teaching room and the local schools are excellent. They have provided her with help, resources, curriculum updates etc but regular trips out with me for coffee and chats (during her school teaching time!) indicates she is going to put them into school.

She Isn't consistant enough with the teaching, she and they get distracted and the most difficult part of it is that the kids learn from their peers and as there are only 2 of them in the garage, they are not being exposed to all the other children at school and I think this has made them a wee bit insular. She freely admits all of this and kudos to her for giving it a go but from her experience she says it is bloody difficult and with all the best will in the world, she can't provide them with the correct environment for learning. The other kids at school learn an awful lot through group play and they are learning quickly as part of a group whereas the twins are learning but are a wee bit behind the curve. Also, from my point of view, I would like my daughter to have some competition to a certain degree to accelerate her learning.

Also, when do you stop? I think, as she does now, it is unfair to teach them so much and then send them of to school where they are put into an alien environment with other kids who have all been together for a while, all know each other and all think the same way to a certain extent.

Also, just because you found school boring and didn't like it, doesn't mean your child will be the same. I hated school but the way we have brought our daughter up means that next year she can't wait to go to school to be with her mates and there is so much more she can learn there. Piano, gymnastics, sports, after school classes etc etc. The only thing I am going to teach her is german and a wee bit of french and of course outdoor pastimes which we already do (windsurfing, kayaking, climbing, skiing).

Without soundng derogatory and hopefully my post has been balanced, I wouldn't do it. I have a lot of skills but I don't have the necessary skills and know how to teach our daughter in the way that she is supposed to be taught in the early years. I think my job as a parent is to help her learn and teach her the other stuff, manners, respect etc and let the teachers teach her the stuff she needs to know and then let me reinforce that at home and encourage her.

Viel Glück!

In reply to Denni:

Hi again Heike,
also forgot to say that the twins see their mum now as the teacher which has caused a bit of friction at the weekends where the boys now want to spend time with their dad as they said their mum sees them during the week and teaches them so already they have a different relationship with mum who they now see as their teacher.
Makes her a wee bit sad when they say to her "mummy can stay at home because we will see her on Monday" That would break my heart.

In reply to Heike: In addition, as strange as it may seem, it can be hard to teach your own children because of the emotional investment you have in them. You get worried and frustrated if they're not learning as quickly as you think they should, and of course, because you're not a teacher you don't really know what stage they should be at, what the "norm" is.

That's my experience anyway.

In reply to Heike:


Here is my main reservation about home-schooling. What a good teacher and a good parent can offer a child are very different.

I am both a (university) teacher and a parent, with one child now at university and a second probably going there soon. So with some student-age people I'm in a parental relationship, and with some others I'm in a tutorial relationship. I know from experience that there are things that I can teach my children that I couldn't get across to my students--and vice versa. And this isn't just a point about university level--if anything it's even truer at school level.

Hence, I want my children to be in a tutorial relationship with someone who isn't me.

Of course, this isn't a decisive reason why home-schooling can't work. It's not meant to be. And I have had some positive experiences of trying to tutor my own children. Last year one of them did crash-course classical Greek with me for six weeks, because she'd been ill and missed most of a term of her university introduction course. That worked well. And I've talked through plenty of essays with them on various things (history, Shakespeare, The Death of a Salesman...). My wife helps them with their maths, chemistry, and physics homework. But we're essentially *adjuncts* to their education, most of which is done by other people. And I think that's probably how I want it, because it widens out their view of the world and gives them more links than just with their parents.

In reply to Heike:

What does your child think about the idea?

I'd talk to them and see what they think because it's a big decision for you both and something you should go into together.

PS Wow. Look at the convergence between what I've just said, and what Denni and Submit said just above it

PPS Heike, Busy Lizzie of these forums has had a very positive time home-schooling one of her children--but only in one subject, I think; the child in question was not taken out of 'normal' school. So if you wanted to message her and she didn't mind, B.L. would be a good person to talk this through with, I think. (She's a good person to talk most things through with.)

In reply to Heike: A bit of first hand experience here .
I am a teenager who has been home educated since infant school age . My Dad is an engineer and my mum was a teacher briefly before working in the probation service , but most of the people who I know have been home educated by parents without any teaching experience without any problems .

It has been an amazing experience which has made me who I am - an integral part of my identity . The main attraction is the flexibility , lack of unwanted peer pressure and no bullying at all .
I've got A*s in my GCSE's , I have met MP's , I have toured military bases , been to countless museums and exhibitions and been involved in many projects with other home educated young people which I could not have done in school . I have learned 2 languages and play 3 musical instruments . I am a member of a debating society ( run by home educators ) and the Air Cadets .
I have the time to pursue my passion of hill walking and outdoor sports and have a great social life (contrary to the popular idea of home educators as sociopaths ). It beats the experiences of my friends in normal school hands down in every way .
Home education is however a huge investment of time and sometimes money ( £200 to sit an exam , plus travel costs ). It requires huge amounts of motivation from the parent and children and you will have to be proactive in making things happen , as no one else will help you . A lot of the curriculum I have used has been imported from the US , where home schooling is far bigger than in the UK . Also ,constantly being asked 'why are you not in school ?'' every time I go to a shop , catch a train or use a climbing wall is very irritating ...

In reply to Heike: Without too many details, a relative of mine home schools and it isn't going well on a lot of levels. It's expensive -From what I can tell, homeschooling seems to involve lots of little home ed groups, which all cost money. It's a very intense atmosphere with a horrible blurring of the teacher/ parent distinction (with lots of scope for emotional potboiling on both sides), and (given I've now met quite a few home ed parents) it does seem to be a parental agenda dressed up as concern for the kids. It also doesn't have the resources that schools do, especially in science/ technology areas. Trips to the theatre won't help with chemistry or computing.

I appreciate every parent is different, but it worries me greatly.

In reply to Heike: As Toad said , there are quite a few people who home educate their kids as part of an ideology . Luckily I wasn't one of kids in that situation . But the vast majority are simply people like my parents who looked at the current education system and thought 'no way are we putting our children into this mess ''. It worked fine for me , but it isn't for everyone .

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Easily if you're spending most of the days in school fighting pig headed bullies - which was pretty much my life between 12 and 16.

In reply to SARS:

Pretty much mine from 5 to 17. My time wasn't wasted, i learned huge skills which are still relevant to me now.

In reply to wintertree:

Not disagreeing with you as you what you describe is pretty much what i do for a living ie try to improve things.

My point is that like it or not you learned huge amounts during that time, maybe not what you should have been learning but lessons just the same. From the passion in your post it is evident these lessons have stayed with you and will no doubt be used in fighting the cause so that others don't suffer as you did. As such that time hasn't been wasted, someone sometime in the future will benefit from your wisdom. As painful as it may have been for you to acquire it.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


Yes, I learnt a lot of things that were very detrimental and that set me back personally and academically by many years. It is hard to find a single, sensible view from which my time was not wasted. I did not leave with good social skills, or a large group of friends, or having developed at sports. I left with a complete hatred for the place. I have met other people with similar issues who have suffered far worse long term consequences. It is a waste of both time and potential.

The only wisdom that it left me with is that some schools are not just a waste of time, but are actively harmful and destructive, when it comes to kids who need that extra bit of help to get through their learning difficulties.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

You're seriously arguing that time wasted isn't really wasted if you learn that wasting time is a waste of time?

In reply to Heike:

Looking back on my own childhood, I'd add this: I would have HATED to be home-schooled.

Not because I loved school. I didn't. Mostly, I detested it.

And not because I didn't get on with my parents, but precisely because I did get on with them, and would have worried that being so close to them all the time would have spoiled our relationship.

In reply to Heike:

And also: if I were considering home-schooling my own children, I would worry about my motives for doing it. (That does NOT mean I'm questioning yours!!)

Specifically, I would worry that I was being a clingy parent.

That I was failing to let go of them because I didn't want to. (And I don't! No parent does.)

And that I wasn't allowing my children to get out into the big rough dangerous world--where they need to be.

In reply to Heike:



Bit of a contradiction, and I think the second answers your question for you.

In reply to Heike:
Assuming your profile is relativly recent I've got a similar age kid and know a couple of home schoolers and plenty of people who have started out flexi schooling (though this is getting harder for schools to allow in England). Also my sister has home schooled her kids (infant to secondary age) for the past year or so.

From watching others at it (and repeating some of the points above) be realistic about what you can do and think about:
(a) exit points - will you stop? if so when?
(b) how will you fill the time with them, perhaps not so hard when they are 4 or 5 but needs more planning as they get bigger
(c) how will they get the things (including time away from you with peers) you can't offer?
(d) how you'll help them be themselves not the younger you you wished you'ld been (don't mean this offensivly but I guess we've all seen/been parents forceing ideals/predudices onto their children - a mixed social group is one guard against this)

In reply to Tim Chappell:



This is perhaps the most common misconception about home education and home educated children and young people . That they would be pulverized by the 'Real world ' the moment they stepped out into it . It is nothing short of a joke .
The fact that I haven't had friends showing me porn on their phones since age 11 , doesn't mean I don't understand human biology .
The fact that I haven't had drug awareness lessons doesn't mean I don't know the dangers - me and a (home-schooled)friend watched a police cannabis bust out of his bedroom window .
The fact that home educated children are protected from bullying simply means that we view it as abnormal and unacceptable when we reach college or the workplace and simply don't let ourselves be walked over .

So what if I was sheltered from sex , drugs and rock and roll as a older child and younger teenager - it has benefited me hugely in the long term.

In reply to turnersi:

Err no....try reading my posts.

In reply to Heike:

I would be concerned about how your child would get enough opportunities for social interaction. It's very easy to meet up with other parents and children in the pre-school years but, I imagine, most of these children will go to school and therefore be at school most of most days - often followed by some form of after school care if their parents are working. Perhaps the only children you would have access to during weekdays would be other home schoolers. That's a lot of time to fill with primarily adult company for your child. We home schooled our youngest child (aged 8) for a few months this year (as he was waiting to change schools) and I wouldn't choose to do it again. He benefitted academically but not, in my view, other more important ways. Moreover, he is so much happier now he is back in school. The stimulation and interest he gets from interacting with other children is far greater than anything we were able to provide for him - despite our best efforts.

Also, from your own point of view, would you really find it stimulating enough giving up work and effectively becoming a primary school teacher to one child? (And does one child really need a whole teacher just for him/herself anyway?) From my own experience, it's great fun to help and support your child with their school work - but I honestly wouldn't want to do it all day Monday to Friday. As for taking them to interesting places and developing their knowledge and experiences in all sorts of ways - that is not only for home schoolers; all parents get to do that and there are plenty of hours left after school and at the weekend.

Great thread though - lots of interesting opinions and thoughts.

In reply to SethChili:
That they would be pulverized by the 'Real world ' the moment they stepped out into it . It is nothing short of a joke .


Maybe *that* is a joke. But that wasn't what I meant.

In reply to Heike: Would you mind explaining what DO you mean then ?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I experienced considerably more of the big rough dangerous world when I was home schooled (ages 10-13) than when I subsequently went to school.

In reply to hexcentric:

And if your working the extra cash gives so many more options

In reply to Heike:

Apologies, I haven't read through all the posts as when I started reading the first few, none were from people who were actually doing it!

We have just taken out oldest out of Y1, she attended the whole of the Reception year and did enjoy it but was very, very tired. We found that we spent all of our family time calming her down just to send her back to school, and not actually enjoying the fun of her childhood with her.

Since looking into it, we have found a whole world of home education going on locally - there are over 300 families, with some organised and some very loose educational opportunities every day. We are all loving it so far, she is a lot calmer and happier and so are we.

We aren't really following a curriculum at the moment, as all the evidence seems to point to a very play-based education being best up until about the age of 7. She loves reading, writing and maths so she has opportunities to do all this when she chooses. We cover a whole variety of other stuff, just in daily conversations! She gets plenty of opportunities for socialisation, she actually spends 1 day a week with her childminder who is very keen to be involved, and we spend time with plenty of other home ed families.

She will be able to choose when/ if she returns to school, and our younger boy will also get to choose when he is old enough for school.

Michael Gove and his nutty ideas were the final nail in the coffin for us, the current education system doesn't seem based on any sensible ideas or even to look at what other countries do (very successfully). Having said that, I don't think I would be worried enough to give up a 'real' job if I had one, we are just fortunate that my husband and I both work part-time and are able to do this.

You might be best to start looking at what is going on locally for you, you will find that many home ed families are happy to let you meet up and hang out with them to see what they do. Do send me a pm if you want top chat more in a less public forum!

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Well, when I was at my secondary school I was doing ok, but I was l was always told in no uncertain terms that I was not very good (in comparison to others) this was a school well set on the 'best 'of people (defined by their standards. I found this very demotivating. I am sure I could provide better encouragement ( that wouldn't be very difficult tbh) My parents have always said in hindsight that they wouldn't have sent me or any other child to my old secondary school.

Time can easily be wasted! By being mean, teaching the wrong thing, having a bad time! Easy-peasy.

In reply to Heike:

I don't agree. I'm not defending bad schools, or bad teachers, merely that you learned lots of things that are now as much a part of you as all the positive you experienced at schools. With the right attitude we can turn everything into a positive, i would suggest you likely did.

Good luck with whatever you decide, my job is dealing with parents who feel let down by the system so i understand how difficult these decisions are.

In reply to Denni:

Very interesting post Denni, thanks for your thoughts!

Yes, why should I be able to teach my child better than anyone else, don't know! However, why should any other 25 or 35 year old who did a degree and a one year PGCE know any better? I don't know? Just from my personal experience and people around me I have very little faith.

As you say the main (and in my opinion) only concern I have is about the socialisation process, if you go to school there are loads more kids to deal with, but then, we have loads of friends?

Oh I don't know, really, but I don't think that teachers are that much better placed. They really are only normal people with a degree. And they have to look after 28 of them at the same time!!!
Try that...

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
I don't feel let down by the system. I am just wondering if the system ever did anything positive for me? Possibly no! Possibly yes. But really I can't think of one positive thing from school - apart from playing basketball perhaps ( but that was in my spare time)

In reply to lanky_suction1:

Thanks, that sounds very interesting, I will be in touch! Cheers for your reply.

In reply to Heike:

My secondary school was utterly dreadful and I turned out fairly well, so I'm sure you could do good

In reply to felt:
Don't understand what you mean..?

In reply to Heike:

No comparison intended, merely i understand the importance of the failings in the system and how they inform peoples decision making.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Interesting what you are saying, although I am not entirely sure about the message..? I wouldn't try to 'smother my child' hey, he can go and play if he likes. From reading about it appears that home schooling can be very efficient, i.e. teach for a bit and then go have time to play etc, meet pals, play sports, etc. After all you wouldn't have 28-32 children to look after (like it is in primary school where we live)...

In reply to Heike:

Hi Heike,
No worries just my tuppence worth.

At the end of the day, the most important thing is that you do what you feel is best for your children and for you and everything else will just fall into place, hoffentlich......!

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Well, I am just gathering ideas, I have not made up my mind at all, it was a thought that occurred to me. I am sure if you had asked me 10 years ago, I would have said 'absolutely not!' However, age and experience does changes your views! Hence I am thinking that I could perhaps do a reasonable / equal / better job than some teachers.

I am very impressed with the nursery teachers/ladies at my boy's nursery.They are lovely and do a great job. However, they only look after a few at a time.I can't see how anyone person can look after 28 kids at the same time / even at university it's only 20+ in seminars and that's tricky!

In reply to Denni:

Hoffentlich ja!! I'll probably just go for the easy option in the end (i.e. school)...but I feel that I have to at least have a wee think about it seeing that my husband really really hated it and I was ambivalent! I just feel that there is room for alternatives...people always just go with the 'standard' but then there are options if one so desires! Danke schön!

In reply to Richard Carter: Hahaha, my thoughts entirely ...about my school that is...

In reply to Heike:

Heike,
If it helps at all, we went round the schools for an open evening as our daughter Daisy starts school next year.

All the teachers in both schools teaching reception year were all young and had only been teaching for a couple of years however, they were outstanding in the way they presented themselves, the ideas they had for child development etc and their results spoke for themselves. Another factor in all of this were the OFSTED reports which gave us a good representation of how the school is doing overall.

The amount of information they directly and indirectly teach the children is phenomenal and some of the different ways of learning were new to me! Looking at the kids in the classroom as they were learning was great. They clearly enjoyed themselves and were clearly learning.

The head teacher was honest in her answers when I asked her about the different levels of learning. She said there is always a small group who are ahead of the rest, then there is the biggest group of kids who are all at the same level then the smallest group who are maybe a wee bit shy, not confident, scared etc etc but she assured me that all groups are catered for and non left behind.

Having 28-30 kids in a class isn't a bad thing and even though it looks chaotic and you do think the obvious that surely they can't all be given the same amount of time by the teacher, I do think that actually they can do that because that is what they are taught to do.

Coupled with this, most kids are more eager to learn at this age than university students! Some of them may need a wee bit more direction than others or a kick up the backside but we all do at some point in our lives.

In reply to Heike:
Always good to think outside the box, I do. I reckon Daisy will do well at school because of the foundations we have already given her.

I wouldn't want to teach her, it wouldn't be fun, there would be too much pressure to keep up withe the other kids and I would always be worried that I wasn't keeping up with the curriculum.

I'm happy to pack her off to school knowing that the curriculum is tried and tested and I can do the Daisy and Papa things like teaching her about stars and to stay away from boys! I'm sure it will all go tits up when she reaches her teens.......

In reply to SethChili:

Hello, nice to hear from someone who has had the experience! Yes, I can imagine the expense/and or the hard work, after all one could just sit round doing very little!
What you said was exactly what I had in mind considering the benefits of home schooling. Sounds like you and your parents did a great job!!!

In reply to Denni:
I am sure it will be all fine. Most people can go through most things no problem and survive! I have to decide whether I can cope with the loss of income and hard work required if I were to do this..

However with regards to school, with 28-30 kids I think there are always gonna be some left behind. There is NO way that there is enough time. I mean I was always fine, cos I had the help back home, but there were all the kids with no perspective, no help, the problem kids. (Many of them turned out very well despite of this...another point that school isn't everything...)

For the ones who did reasonably well, they will sit around and twiddle their thumbs (or start being naughty...playing etc (that's me, I think...)).

I have worked as a university teacher and outdoor instructor and from my experience anything above 20-25 gets unmanagable if you want to teach something important/intensive. Why school classes are so large? Well, cost seems the only factor to me. Public schools all have way smaller class sizes.

In reply to Heike:

For anyone interested in all these questions about socialisation, how parents can be teachers, worries about curriculum and so on, 'Learning Without School' by John Holt is a great place to start.

In reply to Heike:
Don't burn your bridges by passing on negativity about school. Lots of things probably including your child will be different.

No experience of home schooling & I'm from a generation where parents didn't schedule activities so I can't imagine childhood without the socialisation of school friendships without parental supervision or free range aspects of just going out to play.

In reply to elsewhere:

Interesting points. School socialisation is quite interesting, when you stop to think about it. I'm not actually still in contact with any of my school friends. Being put together with a large group of children, with the only thing in common being your age isn't necessarily the best way to socialise. My little girl started being aware of segregation almost immediately after starting school: I don't want to play with this child because he's a boy. I don't want to play with that child because they're younger than me. The thing I remember most about socialisation at school is the bullying and jockeying for position in terms of status, and desperately trying to avoid being bullied. And how many times are school children told by teachers, 'You're not here to socialise, you're here to learn'? Our local secondary school starts early, has only an hour for lunch and finishes by 2.40pm. All to avoid problems with 'socialisation' i.e. bullying.

Now she is home educated, she has a smaller but wider range of playmates; I am convinced that quality, not quantity, is more important in developing relationships at this age (she is 5). She actually gets more opportunities for free play than her schooled friends, our kids are encouraged to be more self-sufficient and find their own opportunities to play together. watching them run wild round the woods on our regular 'Forest Friday' mete is awesome! As she is so young, i do stay and supervise, but very loosely. I basically make sure she doesn't get lost or drown in the stream. She roams very freely with the other kids (quite a small group); we occasionally give them some structure but they are all below the age of 7 so much of it is learning through free play.

As for 'burning bridges', home educated children can opt into school at any time. Generally, they are reported to settle well as they have had lots of opportunities to build their confidence and self-ecteem. Likewise, they tend to get accepted into University easily, as they come across confident and knowledgable in interview (generalising here, of course!), and often out-perform their schooled peers as they have already experienced autonomous learning rather than being spoon-fed through their GCSEs and A levels (speaking from experience, I am an ex-teacher).

In reply to Heike:

I think the other thing to consider is that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. If your child goes to school, you can still spend time with them enjoying reading, enjoying science, enjoying maths, enjoying debating or doing, or measuring or thinking... They can also have extra lessons in music etc.

I think one of the things about going to school is that it gives you a shared experience with others, which might make it easier to fit in later on? You learn the unwritten rules of how formal group situations work. Also, you have to learn how to deal with things that you don't necessarily like, such as something being a bit boring, or dealing with a person that you don't like, which are pretty useful skills that you will probably use again and again!

I found school pretty boring - they don't have the time to go at a different speed for different children, or really even the time to show you the things that you can do yourself in order to learn better. I also didn't really get on that well with other kids - I think I was a bit surly. But I don't think staying at home would have been any better - I think I just had to grow into myself.

In reply to Denni:


If they'd only been teaching for a couple of years, then they haven't got a very big pool of results to draw from and some problems with their teaching practices might not show up for a few years.


She was hardly going to say any different was she? She wouldn't tell you that the teachers only have limited time for each kid and if your kid has trouble in one particular aspect of learning (s)he will just slip further and further back because there's 29 other kids in the class to accommodate.

I'm not saying that that isn't the case, but be careful, and be aware that the head might have the best interests of their school at heart first and foremost above the interests of individual pupils.

To a certain degree it's a lottery, but some problems don't really show up until further down the line. My son is a bright enough lad, good at maths, good reader, passed his (verbal reasoning based) 11+ with some additional coaching and got into grammar school. The standard of his written work is poor (although improving rapidly) because of the way he was taught to write and consolidate spelling in early years. It was only because my ex became a year one teacher that we found out my son's year one and year two teachers had missed some key skills out of his learning.

In reply to Heike:

something to consider is the hoops you have to jump thru to become certified to do it.

i dont actually know the deal in the UK, but in australia i have friends who did it and its a bit of a deal, fire escapes, police checks, access etc.
more so (at least in aus) the place of learning is registered as an educational facility, but only to those who are part of it. my friends later got divorced, which messed up the registration and to whom things were registered. it panned out quite complicatedly.

thats not a negative. just make sure you have it all in range with everything else.

In reply to lanky_suction1:
School friends were important at school age but often not later. A constant parental presence seems alien compared to my childhood. Bullying is an aspect of socialisation but it is not the defining aspect unless you are very unlucky. I'd characterise it as getting on with others & making friends independnently of parents/teachers/adults.

Burning bridges - that's about not installing a fear or dislike of school so that if the child does go to school they don't start off fearful or with poor expectations.

In reply to ice.solo:

No hoops to jump through here at all.

The responsibility for your child's education lies in the first instance, with you the parents. Most people delegate this responsibility to a school, simply for convenience or because they don't realise the legal situation.

If your child has never attended school, there is no legal responsibility to inform anyone. The LEA probably prefers you to get in touch, and depending where in the UK you live they can be helpful/ downright unhelpful. If you take your child out of school, you simply write a letter to the school 'de-registering' them; the school passes this information to the LEA, then you proceed as above - with as much or as little contact with the LEA as you choose. Most like to visit/ have some contact once a year but there is no legal obligation for this. There is no requirement to follow any curriculum, just the obligation to provide a 'broad and balanced education'. There is no need for any registration/ certification of any kind.

I'm sure the OP originally asked for people who had experience of this rather than uninformed opinion of what may or may not have happened to other people (second hand knowledge) half way round the world.

In reply to elsewhere:

Most home ed kids have plenty of opportunities for socialisation independently of parents/ other adults. Of course it is very important, but as pointed out in my previous post many schools don't allow for this.

In terms of instilling fear or dislike, quite a lot of home ed children do choose to go into school at some point in their educational career, as also pointed out in my previous post.

In reply to lanky_suction1:
It's news to me that bullying is so bad that breaks & lunch times have been removed in typical schools.

You mentioned "As for 'burning bridges', home educated children can opt into school at any time".

My point wasn't that they couldn't go to school. My point was that they shouldn't be given a negative impression of school as that might cause problems if they do go to school.

In reply to lanky_suction1:

That's pretty much what happened to us.
You'll get somebody round pretty quick smart after you de-register who is essentially there to check on the welfare of your child (people's reasons for taking a child out of school are not always positive).

Then, within a year, you'll get somebody who will want to check out the actual education of your child. If they think you're doing fine then you won't see them for another year, if they are not happy with what you are providing they may offer support.

Legally you don't have to cooperate with these people or let them into your house but it's probably less complicated in the end to do so.

In reply to lanky_suction1:
just the obligation to provide a 'broad and balanced education'.

"Education Otherwise" is the home edders mantra, is it not?

In reply to lanky_suction1:

Next time i wont be bothering.

In reply to Tim Chappell:


I'd agree with that - watching one my kids refuse to do anything to learn to swim for me, and then doing everything a swimming teacher asked them to illustrated the point quite nicely.

I don't think that necessarily rules out home education, though - many of the people I know who home educate send their kids to various clubs, get them tutored by other adults (often other HEers), and similar.

I looked quite closely at home ed, but decided to send them to school to start with. Partly because a 2 year old and a 5 year old at home were mighty hard work. Partly because I wanted to keep working (albeit very part time). Partly because the local primary has (what I consider) a very sensible attitude to early years education, ignoring most of Mr Gove's brainwaves as far as is possible....

Whilst they're basically happy at school, I'll probably leave them there. There's plenty of time to do other "educational" stuff around school. I'd certainly consider taking them out if they started disliking school - eg the older one has fairly focussed skills (strong in maths/engineering type stuff, poor at spelling/writing, family history of dyslexia), and there's a danger that that doesn't work well within the school system, which relies heavily on written work
. He had a great teacher for the last two years, but this year it seems to be more of an issue.

In reply to Carolyn:

>This seems very like my (second hand) experience - Home Ed is most similar to having a series of private tutors , rather than doing it yourself. As I say, it does seem to get expensive quite quickly

In reply to Carolyn:


Glen Shee anecdote:

I had my daughter with me on the ski slopes, and so did my mate Bill. I was trying to teach my daughter, he was trying to teach his. Each daughter was just getting really angry at her dad. (Me: "What you need to do is, as you turn, bring your left ski round and change your weight--" Daughter: "DAD! That's what I'm DOING but it DOESN'T WORK!" etc.)

So then we swapped daughters. And very quickly indeed once they were away from their fathers, both daughters learned to ski

In reply to toad:


Most of those I know tend to trade skills between friends and other parents - so not expensive in itself, "just" the loss of income. That's mainly primary level - most of the secondary parents with kids in school moan about "having" to use tutors, anyhow (I have fairly limited sympathy, having had to teach myself A-level physics to get the grade I needed with a useless teacher - which was good preparation for uni IME...)

In reply to Tim Chappell:

LOL - yes, I've taught friends' kids to ski before I had my own. My own have been sent to lessons.....

In reply to Heike:

A few things Heike that I'm sure you have thought of or have been mentioned above (being an overworked teacher I don't have time to read the thread).

Are you letting your own school experience colour your judgement? It was (ahem) a few years ago. With regard to pupil choice and empowerment there has been great improvement.

The lack of social interaction with other kids probably isn't a big deal as others have suggested. What would be a big deal for me is the lack of meaningful educational dialogue with peers. You'll find the shared endeavour of working on a really meaty problem more difficult to engineer than social opportunites. For me that stuff is the real goods.

Some of the advice you'll get on here pertains to Englandshire making it largely irrelevant, assuming you're still living en ecosse.

In reply to toad:

Sounds like a different kind of home ed to the one I am a product of . My parents taught me , with the exception of music and debating . I also did some science with other home educated friends .

In reply to ice.solo:


Yeah! I was wondering if her answer was to be used as object lesson in cyber-bullying?

Heike, I presume your schooling was all in Germany? Do you think your experiences there would be similar to your kids likely experience of school in Scotland? It's a bit of a lottery putting your kids in a different national system than the one you grew up in; in that you're not really sure what to expect. It seems almost too random to me to have any idea whether the Finnish system is better for my kids than the UK system would be: education here is different from the UK; my kids aren't me; the UK system has changed since I was in school etc. etc.

There is plenty of sociology that suggests that schools are pretty marginal to how well children do in systems, and the financial and cultural capital of the child's family is way more significant. So it might be a relief (or a horror?) to think that you probably had set their life-chances before they were even born and it doesn't really matter how they are educated, it won't change the outcome!

In reply to TobyA:

Hm, I guess there is a lot in what you are saying...I think the cultural (and financial) capital is very important.

About the schools, my niece (from Germany) came and stayed with us for 7 months when she was 15 and did a year in our local high school (which apparently is very good so I am told). She had a great time, loved it in fact. However, it was quite easy for her (but then she is very brainy...unlike her old aunt...) She enjoyed all the science experiments and hands on learning, something we certainly didn't do in school!

Then again, my husband (who is from the UK) really didn't like school, not because of the school or teaching, he did well, but of the social environment. There are so many variables, I guess.

I didn't really detest school, I liked meeting my pals and doing sports etc, but the actual teaching I really thought was very boring and didn't inspire me.

So, to summarise, I think there are pros and cons. I am just thinking that home schooling might be fun for all involved. And I like to take a risk and be different from time to time. Who says that every child has to be removed to a shared social institution and taught the same way with 30 other kids? It's something that was introduced a couple of hundred years ago for good reasons. So, there might be other options. I am really just pondering...If it comes down to it, the lack of my income - should I homeschool our wee boy - would probably be the most prohibitive factor...

Heike

In reply to DaveHK:
>).
What ARE you implying, Dave!!? That my experiences are so last century...? Oh ...they are!

I've realised that. I had a look on the websites.

I don't think I let my experience cloud my judgement, but I take your point. It just doesn't sound very appealing to send my child off to a class of 26 (growing to 30) by year 2 or 3 (I forgot when). Surely there is NO way a teacher can efficiently look after that many - even with any good will in the world (and I know most teachers have that and work very hard).

I think I might be able to do a reasonable job with one? I totally take your point about working together with peers, that would be something one would have to work into it the schedule. But I am sure there are others you could hook up with hometeaching.

As I said above, it'll all come down to affordability anyways...

In reply to SethChili:

Oh god. Those two subject got run together in my mind as I read them...

In reply to Heike:

Two points. If you live in Scotland as earlier replies imply you'll find many schools now apply far more active learning strategies eg cooperative learning or critical skills. Secondly as far as individual children are concerned interestingly my own daughter hates these techniques and prefers more traditional teaching perhaps your child will to. As the expression goes "it takes all kinds"

In reply to Heike:

Sorry i just have to answer that one by saying, depending on the teacher and the kids - easy.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

IMHO there is no chance that anyone person can take into account all requirements of 30 other people. NO way. I am lecturer/tutor and know that this is not possible even if the people are "more adult". You *think* you might be on top of it, but there will always be some who get away. How much time is there in one hour?

In reply to Heike:

We'll agree to disagree. I taught for 20 years and no-one was left behind.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong: I am sure you did a great job It's a tough profession!

In reply to Heike:


Snap. I do teaching with more adult types and when you have a 30:1 mix in, e.g., a workshop, it requires a great effort to make sure that everyone gets the most from their 2 minutes worth of my time - effort on their behalves as well, in coming prepared and knowing where they need to seek my help. Not something I would expect school kids to do as well.

If someone can make sure a class of 30 kids with various learning difficulties, attention problems, lack of motivation, mental blocks, misunderstandings and a host of other problems can get fully taken care of with 2 minutes of teacher time in an hour's lesson then they are not from this planet

In reply to wintertree:
>effort on their behalves as well, in coming prepared and knowing where they need to seek my help.

Hahaha, talking of prepared, I have (for the first time in my life as tutor which I have been doing for a long while on and off) send a class away last week, because not even one of the 22 people had done the reading! So, yes, preparation would be lovely, but a bit too much to be asked from kids...