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Just having a conversation with a woman at work after listening to a bit of R Dawkins on Radio 2.
The question was raised - can animals be evil, or is it a human quality to be able to do something harmful to another creature for its own gratification rather than necessity?
I suggested cats can be evil as they play with smaller creatures but not always for food, but then is that just their 'nature' or is it their free will?
The question was raised - can animals be evil, or is it a human quality to be able to do something harmful to another creature for its own gratification rather than necessity?
I suggested cats can be evil as they play with smaller creatures but not always for food, but then is that just their 'nature' or is it their free will?
In reply to owena:
Cats Practice catch, release, catch, not out of any cruelty, but because their Prey is small and fast. Its practice for getting food in the future. No Malice aforethought.
Cats Practice catch, release, catch, not out of any cruelty, but because their Prey is small and fast. Its practice for getting food in the future. No Malice aforethought.
In reply to owena:
If that's your definition of evil then yes, some animals kill things they do not eat or need to kill for defense. Mink for example kill and stockpile Water Voles. Domestic cats are an example people are more familiar with.
I would in that case suggest your definition of evil isn't perfect.
jk
> can animals be evil, or is it a human quality to be able to do something harmful to another creature for its own gratification rather than necessity?
If that's your definition of evil then yes, some animals kill things they do not eat or need to kill for defense. Mink for example kill and stockpile Water Voles. Domestic cats are an example people are more familiar with.
I would in that case suggest your definition of evil isn't perfect.
jk
In reply to owena:
As far as im aware, the only Other animal that Kills or causes Suffering for no Other reason than entertainment, apart From humans, is the dolphin.
As far as im aware, the only Other animal that Kills or causes Suffering for no Other reason than entertainment, apart From humans, is the dolphin.
In reply to Choss:
yes cats training makes sense
so would you say that evil or intentionally doing harm is a human quality?
yes cats training makes sense
so would you say that evil or intentionally doing harm is a human quality?
In reply to owena:
i suppose it does depend on the definition of evil
what about free will? again is that just a human thing? if it even exists that is
i suppose it does depend on the definition of evil
what about free will? again is that just a human thing? if it even exists that is
In reply to owena:
Cats are evil because they crap on my front lawn, I'm sure one looks at me , taunting me as if to say what you going to do about it,
Mmmmmmm shame my grand fathers shot guns were sold
Cats are evil because they crap on my front lawn, I'm sure one looks at me , taunting me as if to say what you going to do about it,
Mmmmmmm shame my grand fathers shot guns were sold
In reply to Choss:
I have seen a documentary about hornets sending out scouts to look for bee hives. When a scout finds one he marks it with a pheromone and the the hornets turn up en masse and kill all the bees. That's a bit evil!
I have seen a documentary about hornets sending out scouts to look for bee hives. When a scout finds one he marks it with a pheromone and the the hornets turn up en masse and kill all the bees. That's a bit evil!
In reply to owena:
There was an interesting segment on a wildlife documentary a few years ago... blue planet, maybe? which had a pod of killer whales case down a grey whale mother and calf, chase them til the calf was exhausted, kill the calf and take a few nibbles of the body before leaving.
Clearly wasn't a hunt. Not sure how you could work out whether it was 'practise' or not. Seemed more like a way to pass the time.
There was an interesting segment on a wildlife documentary a few years ago... blue planet, maybe? which had a pod of killer whales case down a grey whale mother and calf, chase them til the calf was exhausted, kill the calf and take a few nibbles of the body before leaving.
Clearly wasn't a hunt. Not sure how you could work out whether it was 'practise' or not. Seemed more like a way to pass the time.
In reply to Shearwater:
Exactly. Thats dolphins for you.
> There was an interesting segment on a wildlife documentary a few years ago... blue planet, maybe? which had a pod of killer whales case down a grey whale mother and calf, chase them til the calf was exhausted, kill the calf and take a few nibbles of the body before leaving.
> Clearly wasn't a hunt. Not sure how you could work out whether it was 'practise' or not. Seemed more like a way to pass the time.
Exactly. Thats dolphins for you.
In reply to woollardjt:
that is evil staring you in the eye whilst having a turd. as a more humane option id say an airzooka would be effective
that is evil staring you in the eye whilst having a turd. as a more humane option id say an airzooka would be effective
In reply to owena:
Mmm possibly, I'm not far from longleat, perhaps I could borrow some of their larger cats and let them go hunting
Mmm possibly, I'm not far from longleat, perhaps I could borrow some of their larger cats and let them go hunting
In reply to woollardjt:
Or just buy a bag of Lion poo From them. Put around garden, keeps domestic felines away.
Or just buy a bag of Lion poo From them. Put around garden, keeps domestic felines away.
In reply to Choss:
I had this conversation with a bloke at work a few years ago. Unfortunately, I already thought he was an idiot before he said about the lion poo thing. Now I'm at the other end of the spectrum from thinking you're an idiot, but can you explain where the logic is in replacing a few little buried cat turds with a few more large, unburied cat turds if what you're hoping to achieve is a turd free garden? :0)
> Or just buy a bag of Lion poo From them. Put around garden, keeps domestic felines away.
I had this conversation with a bloke at work a few years ago. Unfortunately, I already thought he was an idiot before he said about the lion poo thing. Now I'm at the other end of the spectrum from thinking you're an idiot, but can you explain where the logic is in replacing a few little buried cat turds with a few more large, unburied cat turds if what you're hoping to achieve is a turd free garden? :0)
In reply to teflonpete:
thats a fair point, so long as you have access to lion poo! we are waaaay off topic now though
thats a fair point, so long as you have access to lion poo! we are waaaay off topic now though
In reply to owena:
Chimps have been observed as being pretty vicious to each other - beating rivals to death, alphas intimidating others chimps to get food, unprovoked attacks and throwing stones at humans etc*. I wouldn't consider that evil behaviour, but it does indicate a dark aspect to their nature which goes beyond doing what they specifically need to survive. Considering how similar they are to humans probably says something about us as well.
(*Much of the observed behaviour was by Jane Goodall at Goombe, and there has been debate about how the methods of observation influenced the chimps behaviour)
Chimps have been observed as being pretty vicious to each other - beating rivals to death, alphas intimidating others chimps to get food, unprovoked attacks and throwing stones at humans etc*. I wouldn't consider that evil behaviour, but it does indicate a dark aspect to their nature which goes beyond doing what they specifically need to survive. Considering how similar they are to humans probably says something about us as well.
(*Much of the observed behaviour was by Jane Goodall at Goombe, and there has been debate about how the methods of observation influenced the chimps behaviour)
In reply to teflonpete:
It does stop the domestics. By Time Lion Poo degrades, the local cats already Habitually shitting elsewhere and dont come Back. Job Done. Cheap, humane, effective, Long term. Perfect.
It does stop the domestics. By Time Lion Poo degrades, the local cats already Habitually shitting elsewhere and dont come Back. Job Done. Cheap, humane, effective, Long term. Perfect.
In reply to owena:
Back on topic.
No, i dont think any Other animals do evil, with the Possible exception of dolphins.
And that Assumes you Mean evil to be causing suffering for no reason Other than personal Gratification.
> thats a fair point, so long as you have access to lion poo! we are waaaay off topic now though
Back on topic.
No, i dont think any Other animals do evil, with the Possible exception of dolphins.
And that Assumes you Mean evil to be causing suffering for no reason Other than personal Gratification.
In reply to Choss:
Dude, you missed a trick there, fixed it for you.
> It does stop the domestics. By Time Lion Poo degrades, the local cats already Habitually shitting elsewhere and dont come Back. Job Done. Cheap, humane, effective, Long term. Purrrrfect.
Dude, you missed a trick there, fixed it for you.
In reply to teflonpete:
Damn, missed that one. Cheers bud 7;^)
> Dude, you missed a trick there, fixed it for you.
Damn, missed that one. Cheers bud 7;^)
In reply to Choss:
What's with the dolphins? I thought they were friendly, jumping, smiley sea dwellers. Narwhals, on the other flipper...
> Back on topic.
> No, i dont think any Other animals do evil, with the Possible exception of dolphins.
What's with the dolphins? I thought they were friendly, jumping, smiley sea dwellers. Narwhals, on the other flipper...
In reply to owena:
You appear to use 'necessity' from an anthropogenic angle. Consider this piece by Stephen Gould and decide if it was 'necessary' for evolution to take this turn:
"The ichneumon, like most wasps, generally live freely as adults but pass their larva life as parasites feeding on the bodies of other animals, almost invariably members of their own phylum, the Arthropoda. The most common victims are caterpillars (butterfly and moth larvae), but some ichneumons prefer aphids and other attack spiders. Most host are parasitized as larvae, but some adults are attacked, and many tiny ichneumons inject their brood directly into the eggs of their host.
The free-flying females locate an appropriate host and then convert it into a food factory for their own young. Parasitologists speak of ectoparasitism when the uninvited guest lives on the surface of its host, and endoparasitism when the parasite dwells within. Among endoparasitic ichneumons, adult females pierce the host with their ovipositor and deposit eggs within. (The ovipositor, a thin tube extending backward from the wasp’s rear end, may be many times as long as the body itself.) Usually, the host is not otherwise inconvenienced for the moment, at least until the eggs hatch and the ichneumon larvae begin their grim work of interior excavation.
Among ectoparasites, however, many females lay their eggs directly upon the host’s body. Since an active host would easily dislodge the egg, the ichneumon mother often simultaneously injects a toxin that paralyzes the caterpillar or other victim. The paralyzes may be permanent, and the caterpillar lies, alive but immobile, with the agent of its future destruction secure on its belly. The egg hatches, the helpless caterpillar twitches, the wasp larvae pierces and begins its grisly feast.
Since a dead and decaying caterpillar will do the wasp larvae no good, it eats in a pattern that cannot help but recall, in our inappropriate anthropocentric interpretation, the ancient English penalty for treason — drawing and quartering, with its explicit object of extracting as much torment as possible by keeping the victim alive and sentient. As the king’s executioner drew out and burned his client’s entrails, so does the ichneumon larvae eat fat bodies and digestive organs first, keeping the caterpillar alive by preserving intact the essential heart and central nervous system. Finally, the larvae completes its work and kills its victim, leaving behind the caterpillar’s empty shell."
I don't think we have free will as such. Personally I think we are the product of our biology - evolutionary compromise and hormonal drive.
> can animals be evil, or is it a human quality to be able to do something harmful to another creature for its own gratification rather than necessity?
You appear to use 'necessity' from an anthropogenic angle. Consider this piece by Stephen Gould and decide if it was 'necessary' for evolution to take this turn:
"The ichneumon, like most wasps, generally live freely as adults but pass their larva life as parasites feeding on the bodies of other animals, almost invariably members of their own phylum, the Arthropoda. The most common victims are caterpillars (butterfly and moth larvae), but some ichneumons prefer aphids and other attack spiders. Most host are parasitized as larvae, but some adults are attacked, and many tiny ichneumons inject their brood directly into the eggs of their host.
The free-flying females locate an appropriate host and then convert it into a food factory for their own young. Parasitologists speak of ectoparasitism when the uninvited guest lives on the surface of its host, and endoparasitism when the parasite dwells within. Among endoparasitic ichneumons, adult females pierce the host with their ovipositor and deposit eggs within. (The ovipositor, a thin tube extending backward from the wasp’s rear end, may be many times as long as the body itself.) Usually, the host is not otherwise inconvenienced for the moment, at least until the eggs hatch and the ichneumon larvae begin their grim work of interior excavation.
Among ectoparasites, however, many females lay their eggs directly upon the host’s body. Since an active host would easily dislodge the egg, the ichneumon mother often simultaneously injects a toxin that paralyzes the caterpillar or other victim. The paralyzes may be permanent, and the caterpillar lies, alive but immobile, with the agent of its future destruction secure on its belly. The egg hatches, the helpless caterpillar twitches, the wasp larvae pierces and begins its grisly feast.
Since a dead and decaying caterpillar will do the wasp larvae no good, it eats in a pattern that cannot help but recall, in our inappropriate anthropocentric interpretation, the ancient English penalty for treason — drawing and quartering, with its explicit object of extracting as much torment as possible by keeping the victim alive and sentient. As the king’s executioner drew out and burned his client’s entrails, so does the ichneumon larvae eat fat bodies and digestive organs first, keeping the caterpillar alive by preserving intact the essential heart and central nervous system. Finally, the larvae completes its work and kills its victim, leaving behind the caterpillar’s empty shell."
I don't think we have free will as such. Personally I think we are the product of our biology - evolutionary compromise and hormonal drive.
In reply to owena:
Perhaps that is why human societies have so many taboos against murder, rape, incest etc, if left unpunished they become quiet enjoyable? Just a thought.
D
Perhaps that is why human societies have so many taboos against murder, rape, incest etc, if left unpunished they become quiet enjoyable? Just a thought.
D
In reply to teflonpete:
See Orca Talk above.
Some dolphin pods will capture a porpoise and Knock it about Until it dies then Leave it. Seems theres no Rhyme or reason to their behaviours like this than Sadistic pleasure. like Some humans and fox hunting.
Not all dolphins do this, like most humans dont, Which Suggests they choose to or are indoctrinated to Accept as Normal.
> What's with the dolphins? I thought they were friendly, jumping, smiley sea dwellers. Narwhals, on the other flipper...
See Orca Talk above.
Some dolphin pods will capture a porpoise and Knock it about Until it dies then Leave it. Seems theres no Rhyme or reason to their behaviours like this than Sadistic pleasure. like Some humans and fox hunting.
Not all dolphins do this, like most humans dont, Which Suggests they choose to or are indoctrinated to Accept as Normal.
In reply to Shani:
thanks for the excerpt there, yes im aware of that horrible wasp but its a survival tactic and nature finding an untapped niche. its horrible but logical
thanks for the excerpt there, yes im aware of that horrible wasp but its a survival tactic and nature finding an untapped niche. its horrible but logical
In reply to Choss:
Or a bit of practice, it looks instinctual behaviour. Sparrows mob sick and injured birds in the flock. However highly developed the brains and social hierarchy of cetaceans it would be a mistake to apply the morality of the meek and mild when the same species has mechanized warfare.
D
Or a bit of practice, it looks instinctual behaviour. Sparrows mob sick and injured birds in the flock. However highly developed the brains and social hierarchy of cetaceans it would be a mistake to apply the morality of the meek and mild when the same species has mechanized warfare.
D
In reply to Dauphin:
I dont think when dolphin pods behave that way it is instinctual, Otherwise it would be all dolphin pods. But it isnt, its a Minority?
I dont think when dolphin pods behave that way it is instinctual, Otherwise it would be all dolphin pods. But it isnt, its a Minority?
In reply to Choss:
Its a little seen behaviour - out of all the dolphin pods being studied in the whole planet - most aren't engaging it it when being observed. I can't say I feel more or less disposed to dolphins or these dolphins knowing this. I'm also fond of cats. Probably because the behaviours they exhibit which tickle my fondness gland are a result of them being expert killers.
D
Its a little seen behaviour - out of all the dolphin pods being studied in the whole planet - most aren't engaging it it when being observed. I can't say I feel more or less disposed to dolphins or these dolphins knowing this. I'm also fond of cats. Probably because the behaviours they exhibit which tickle my fondness gland are a result of them being expert killers.
D
In reply to owena:
It is a graphic piece but just as that wasp is following its biological drivers, I think WE follow our biological drivers. That is why for example, 'old men buy fast cars', 'young women seek rich, old men', 'young men drive fast, get drunk and fight' and why some poeple hunt.
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> thanks for the excerpt there, yes im aware of that horrible wasp but its a survival tactic and nature finding an untapped niche. its horrible but logical
>
> thanks for the excerpt there, yes im aware of that horrible wasp but its a survival tactic and nature finding an untapped niche. its horrible but logical
It is a graphic piece but just as that wasp is following its biological drivers, I think WE follow our biological drivers. That is why for example, 'old men buy fast cars', 'young women seek rich, old men', 'young men drive fast, get drunk and fight' and why some poeple hunt.
In reply to owena:
Not sure if this is evil or not. Although the chuckling idiots jeering, and wanting the raccoon to get it is poor.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rs7u2TTPXFE&
I do believe the raccoon escaped after the video, it could have been worse.
Not sure if this is evil or not. Although the chuckling idiots jeering, and wanting the raccoon to get it is poor.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rs7u2TTPXFE&
I do believe the raccoon escaped after the video, it could have been worse.
In reply to owena:
My take is that "doing of evil" is most likely either the result of mal-adjustment or damage in the evil-doers brain, or simply the norms of behaviour we have structured in our society are so complex and/or arbitrary that it is very easy for our behaviours to be considered evil or abnormal.
Evil is subjective. Our troops killing is good, their troops killing us is evil. The executioner is good, the murderer killing a rival is evil.
So quite likely, in cat or dog society, a cat or dog is might be considered evil by it fellow species despite having taken no action that in our eyes appears evil.
> so would you say that evil or intentionally doing harm is a human quality?
My take is that "doing of evil" is most likely either the result of mal-adjustment or damage in the evil-doers brain, or simply the norms of behaviour we have structured in our society are so complex and/or arbitrary that it is very easy for our behaviours to be considered evil or abnormal.
Evil is subjective. Our troops killing is good, their troops killing us is evil. The executioner is good, the murderer killing a rival is evil.
So quite likely, in cat or dog society, a cat or dog is might be considered evil by it fellow species despite having taken no action that in our eyes appears evil.
In reply to Choss:
I've seen infants - boys and girls of no more than 6 y.o. - pulling the wings off of crane flies (Daddy Longlegs). Would you consider these juveniles to be evil?
> (In reply to DynamoCL)
>
> The only evil there is From humans
>
> The only evil there is From humans
I've seen infants - boys and girls of no more than 6 y.o. - pulling the wings off of crane flies (Daddy Longlegs). Would you consider these juveniles to be evil?
In reply to owena:
The wasp at the Farnborough Air Show who picked me out of a crowd of 60,000, flew straight at me and strung me on the neck, was definitely evil. I wasn't threatening her, had no food on me, didn't antagonise her, try to swat her or anything. The attack was utterly unprovoked and unnecessary. Evil, just evil.
The wasp at the Farnborough Air Show who picked me out of a crowd of 60,000, flew straight at me and strung me on the neck, was definitely evil. I wasn't threatening her, had no food on me, didn't antagonise her, try to swat her or anything. The attack was utterly unprovoked and unnecessary. Evil, just evil.
In reply to Shani:
Yes.
By the definition of causing needless suffering.
By that age, why havent they got Better Reverence for Life, and Empathy for the suffering of all animals?
Teaching, not instinct.
So Arguably, they are not evil per se, but victims of Circumstance, and the Accidental Lottery of birth.
By which token, that would excuse all human activity.
But you wouldnt excuse all Crimes without punishment would you?
So, evil by the act yes. By the Causative factor, you Decide?
Yes.
By the definition of causing needless suffering.
By that age, why havent they got Better Reverence for Life, and Empathy for the suffering of all animals?
Teaching, not instinct.
So Arguably, they are not evil per se, but victims of Circumstance, and the Accidental Lottery of birth.
By which token, that would excuse all human activity.
But you wouldnt excuse all Crimes without punishment would you?
So, evil by the act yes. By the Causative factor, you Decide?
In reply to Choss:
I'm not sure kids are taught to pull wings off. I'd say that it is a mix of curiosity, an expression of power, emotional immaturity, hormonal factors, epigenetic expression.
I am not trying to excuse the behaviour I am trying to explain it. Some of us find it easier to control violent/impulsive (or 'evil') behaviours than others.
The mistake is to think that other think as we do. (Not that I am saying your are wrong or that I am necessarily right).
> (In reply to Shani)
> By that age, why havent they got Better Reverence for Life, and Empathy for the suffering of all animals?
>
> Teaching, not instinct.
> By that age, why havent they got Better Reverence for Life, and Empathy for the suffering of all animals?
>
> Teaching, not instinct.
I'm not sure kids are taught to pull wings off. I'd say that it is a mix of curiosity, an expression of power, emotional immaturity, hormonal factors, epigenetic expression.
> By which token, that would excuse all human activity.
I am not trying to excuse the behaviour I am trying to explain it. Some of us find it easier to control violent/impulsive (or 'evil') behaviours than others.
The mistake is to think that other think as we do. (Not that I am saying your are wrong or that I am necessarily right).
In reply to Shani:
By 6 years old, they should Understand that causing cruelty and suffering is wrong. I did, my Daughter did.
By 6 years old, they should Understand that causing cruelty and suffering is wrong. I did, my Daughter did.
In reply to Choss:
So do my kids, but I have seen them squash ants. I myself pick up slugs from my veggie patch and throw them to to the garage roof so the birds can eat them - despite my knowing their fate (ripped apart by birdds). Am I evil?
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> By 6 years old, they should Understand that causing cruelty and suffering is wrong. I did, my Daughter did.
>
> By 6 years old, they should Understand that causing cruelty and suffering is wrong. I did, my Daughter did.
So do my kids, but I have seen them squash ants. I myself pick up slugs from my veggie patch and throw them to to the garage roof so the birds can eat them - despite my knowing their fate (ripped apart by birdds). Am I evil?
In reply to Choss:
No. As I have said above personally I think we are the product of our biology - evolutionary compromise and hormonal drive. (I don't think 'evil' is a useful term as it is anthropogenically burdened.)
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> Youre an adult. Your conscience. You tell me?
>
> Youre an adult. Your conscience. You tell me?
No. As I have said above personally I think we are the product of our biology - evolutionary compromise and hormonal drive. (I don't think 'evil' is a useful term as it is anthropogenically burdened.)
In reply to Shani:
So you therefore excuse all human behaviour by that token. So none of us are responsible for our actions. Its all biology?
> No. As I have said above personally I think we are the product of our biology - evolutionary compromise and hormonal drive. (I don't think 'evil' is a useful term as it is anthropogenically burdened.)
So you therefore excuse all human behaviour by that token. So none of us are responsible for our actions. Its all biology?
In reply to Choss:
What makes us sleep? What makes us hungry? What gives us sexual drive? What makes some people partake in dangerous sports? Why can some people try smoking and never take it up whilst others form a habit? Why can some people drink in a restrained way and others become alcoholics? How can some people be brainwashed in to killing for a religion - are they weak and mentally pliable? Why do we try to fit in with our peers? Why do we freeze on stage?
It is biology all the way. Some people have a tough time controlling biological impetus.
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> [...]
>
> So you therefore excuse all human behaviour by that token. So none of us are responsible for our actions. Its all biology?
>
> [...]
>
> So you therefore excuse all human behaviour by that token. So none of us are responsible for our actions. Its all biology?
What makes us sleep? What makes us hungry? What gives us sexual drive? What makes some people partake in dangerous sports? Why can some people try smoking and never take it up whilst others form a habit? Why can some people drink in a restrained way and others become alcoholics? How can some people be brainwashed in to killing for a religion - are they weak and mentally pliable? Why do we try to fit in with our peers? Why do we freeze on stage?
It is biology all the way. Some people have a tough time controlling biological impetus.
In reply to Shani:
Speak for yourself. I have no biological or mental impetus to cause any suffering. In fact the Opposite. I am Morally repulsed by the idea.
Speak for yourself. I have no biological or mental impetus to cause any suffering. In fact the Opposite. I am Morally repulsed by the idea.
In reply to Shani:
A biological cause is not the same as a biological excuse.
Not many people can deliberately stop their hearts beating, or decide to stop breathing in their sleep. The vast majority of people can choose not to murder, rape and steal their way through their everyday lives. Succumbing to base urges woudl appear to be something that people can consciously override, and it would appear that pretty much every society in the world expects its members to exercise some basic self restraint, with those that cannot being excluded from civilised society by some suitable means.
> It is biology all the way. Some people have a tough time controlling biological impetus.
A biological cause is not the same as a biological excuse.
Not many people can deliberately stop their hearts beating, or decide to stop breathing in their sleep. The vast majority of people can choose not to murder, rape and steal their way through their everyday lives. Succumbing to base urges woudl appear to be something that people can consciously override, and it would appear that pretty much every society in the world expects its members to exercise some basic self restraint, with those that cannot being excluded from civilised society by some suitable means.
In reply to Choss:
I'm not sure I could be that emphatic. Imagine, for example, if you came across sonebody torturing your children. Your biological impetus may well stray beyond restraining the abuser and on in to punishment... Evolution has made you that way.
> Speak for yourself. I have no biological or mental impetus to cause any suffering. In fact the Opposite. I am Morally repulsed by the idea.
I'm not sure I could be that emphatic. Imagine, for example, if you came across sonebody torturing your children. Your biological impetus may well stray beyond restraining the abuser and on in to punishment... Evolution has made you that way.
In reply to owena:
A chamois in the Ecrins kicked down a load of rocks, narrowly missing me. I would have happily eaten it.
A chamois in the Ecrins kicked down a load of rocks, narrowly missing me. I would have happily eaten it.
In reply to Shani:
The guy on Radio 4 this morning might disagree with you; having studied brain structure and behaviour, and genetic markers in an attempt to identify "wrong'uns", he used his own family as 'normal' references. Only to find that HE had the same markers as psychopaths and murderers. And these markers are found by other researchers, too, so look plausible. He's not a murderer.
He concluded that it was his mother proving him with a wonderful upbringing that may have overcome his biological predisposition.
Nature AND nurture; a sensible, pragmatic answer.
> It is biology all the way. Some people have a tough time controlling biological impetus.
The guy on Radio 4 this morning might disagree with you; having studied brain structure and behaviour, and genetic markers in an attempt to identify "wrong'uns", he used his own family as 'normal' references. Only to find that HE had the same markers as psychopaths and murderers. And these markers are found by other researchers, too, so look plausible. He's not a murderer.
He concluded that it was his mother proving him with a wonderful upbringing that may have overcome his biological predisposition.
Nature AND nurture; a sensible, pragmatic answer.
In reply to owena:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/grump
The Oatmeal certainly thinks they can.
my 2p. I think some animals are too. Especially the cute ones.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/grump
The Oatmeal certainly thinks they can.
my 2p. I think some animals are too. Especially the cute ones.
In reply to captain paranoia:
I heard that piece and I don't think he'd disagree with me at all. It still comes down to biology I mean how do you think the experience of nurture is captured and coded by the brain? In addition the brain has a plasticity affected by externalities but also to internal hormonal responses - there are feedback mechanisms that promote learning.
> The guy on Radio 4 this morning might disagree with you; having studied brain structure and behaviour, and genetic markers in an attempt to identify "wrong'uns", he used his own family as 'normal' references. Only to find that HE had the same markers as psychopaths and murderers. And these markers are found by other researchers, too, so look plausible. He's not a murderer.
> He concluded that it was his mother proving him with a wonderful upbringing that may have overcome his biological predisposition.
> Nature AND nurture; a sensible, pragmatic answer.
I heard that piece and I don't think he'd disagree with me at all. It still comes down to biology I mean how do you think the experience of nurture is captured and coded by the brain? In addition the brain has a plasticity affected by externalities but also to internal hormonal responses - there are feedback mechanisms that promote learning.
In reply to Shani:
You talk sense.
I guess it's tempting to think that humans are magic and have something supernatural about them called "free will" or "the propensity for good and evil" or something equally vague and meaningless. But we're just animals, like all the rest. Our behaviour is significantly more complex than that of the sea cucumber, for example and a bit more complex than mammals like monkeys and dolphins that are sociable. We can do art and science, for a start.
'Evil' is just a concept we use to describe certain, unspecified types of behaviour, which some human beings exhibit in certain circumstances. It has no meaning outside the realm of describing human behaviour.
'Free will' is a pretty pointless concept that I can't really see any useful meaning in. We are animals that behave in complex ways which have evolved because they favour the passing on of our genes. You can't predict the behaviour of any individual because we're so complex. We all know we make choices, and if we have any awareness that we are evolved animals, we can see what guides those choices (especially if we study large numbers of choices).
So what would it mean not to have free will? To be like a sea cucumber with predictable behaviour?
You talk sense.
I guess it's tempting to think that humans are magic and have something supernatural about them called "free will" or "the propensity for good and evil" or something equally vague and meaningless. But we're just animals, like all the rest. Our behaviour is significantly more complex than that of the sea cucumber, for example and a bit more complex than mammals like monkeys and dolphins that are sociable. We can do art and science, for a start.
'Evil' is just a concept we use to describe certain, unspecified types of behaviour, which some human beings exhibit in certain circumstances. It has no meaning outside the realm of describing human behaviour.
'Free will' is a pretty pointless concept that I can't really see any useful meaning in. We are animals that behave in complex ways which have evolved because they favour the passing on of our genes. You can't predict the behaviour of any individual because we're so complex. We all know we make choices, and if we have any awareness that we are evolved animals, we can see what guides those choices (especially if we study large numbers of choices).
So what would it mean not to have free will? To be like a sea cucumber with predictable behaviour?
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