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I have no idea! I'm not an atheist but also not really religious. I'm more of a dip your toe into buddhism, eastern philosophy type of chap.
Some atheists must "celebrate" the giving and receiving of presents and I'm sure some of them don't but should they get christmas pressies in the name of baby Jebus/christmas tradition or are they being hypocritical?
Some atheists must "celebrate" the giving and receiving of presents and I'm sure some of them don't but should they get christmas pressies in the name of baby Jebus/christmas tradition or are they being hypocritical?
In reply to Denni:
Well, I can't really be bothered with them.
But as we don't believe in any of that Jesus stuff, there's no reason I can see why atheists shouldn't get/give presents on whatever days we feel like it.
On a related note, I don't believe in egg-laying rabbits either, but I still eat chocolate in the Springtime.
Well, I can't really be bothered with them.
But as we don't believe in any of that Jesus stuff, there's no reason I can see why atheists shouldn't get/give presents on whatever days we feel like it.
On a related note, I don't believe in egg-laying rabbits either, but I still eat chocolate in the Springtime.
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Did you hear about the dyslexic Devil-worshipper?
Sold his soul to Santa.
Did you hear about the dyslexic Devil-worshipper?
Sold his soul to Santa.
In reply to Denni:
Probably shouldn't give or receive if one was being an orthodox atheist, but it would be poor form to go against societal norms.
Probably shouldn't give or receive if one was being an orthodox atheist, but it would be poor form to go against societal norms.
In reply to Denni:
Well seeing as the date and most of the traditions associated with Christmas were stolen from earlier religions then an atheist celebrating Christmas isn't really all that different than a Christian celebrating the birth of Jesus on Dec 25th or swapping presents or putting up a Christmas tree.
Well seeing as the date and most of the traditions associated with Christmas were stolen from earlier religions then an atheist celebrating Christmas isn't really all that different than a Christian celebrating the birth of Jesus on Dec 25th or swapping presents or putting up a Christmas tree.
In reply to Denni:
Yes!
We should also get presents for Dwali, Imbolic, Ramadan, or any other religious festival of giving
Yes!
We should also get presents for Dwali, Imbolic, Ramadan, or any other religious festival of giving
In reply to Denni:
Maybe it depends on what you see as the 'real' meaning of Christmas, or the merry making which marks the time of year around the shortest day?
Yes absolutely, presents are always good. ()
Maybe it depends on what you see as the 'real' meaning of Christmas, or the merry making which marks the time of year around the shortest day?
Yes absolutely, presents are always good. ()
Post edited at 22:43
In reply to Denni:
Its a difficult subject and one I am in two minds about.
So I solve it by accepting presents and not giving any.
Its a difficult subject and one I am in two minds about.
So I solve it by accepting presents and not giving any.
In reply to Denni The turn of the year has always been celebrated, it was just taken over by religion. Jesus, if he existed, must have been born in the Spring anyway, with all those shepherds keeping flocks by night.
In reply to Denni:
The question is better phrased as: should we let this new-fangled middle eastern cult hijack the winter solstice?
The question is better phrased as: should we let this new-fangled middle eastern cult hijack the winter solstice?
In reply to Denni:
Everyone should get presents at Christmas time irrespective of belief,since it is a universal or global time of giving.
Everyone should get presents at Christmas time irrespective of belief,since it is a universal or global time of giving.
In reply to dissonance:
Mindboggling. Revealing. Shocking. And very sad.
Obviously no problem for you if you see the world totally in materialist terms, as being solely about improving your lot, material gain etc ('survival' … plus feathering your bed), and devoid of any feeling, interest, or care/caritas whatsoever for any living beings around you, let alone friends, or those who may be related to you. I guess it's analogous to a very extreme version of colour blindness or tone deafness. AKO, Brave New World, 2013.
> Its a difficult subject and one I am in two minds about.
> So I solve it by accepting presents and not giving any.
Mindboggling. Revealing. Shocking. And very sad.
Obviously no problem for you if you see the world totally in materialist terms, as being solely about improving your lot, material gain etc ('survival' … plus feathering your bed), and devoid of any feeling, interest, or care/caritas whatsoever for any living beings around you, let alone friends, or those who may be related to you. I guess it's analogous to a very extreme version of colour blindness or tone deafness. AKO, Brave New World, 2013.
In reply to Gelstat5:
Why this extraordinary emphasis on 'get' rather than give, I wonder?
Answer: because we're a sick society, I suspect.
> Everyone should get presents at Christmas time irrespective of belief,since it is a universal or global time of giving.
Why this extraordinary emphasis on 'get' rather than give, I wonder?
Answer: because we're a sick society, I suspect.
In reply to csw:
Festivals for the winter solstice were always (globally) rather unimportant compared with the spring and autumn equinoxes and the midsummer solstice. And all those pagan festivals evolved too, and even shifted, with the precession of the equinoxes. Syncretism probably better word than hijack, because a lot of the pagan persisted … and still does (imho) … and remains rather important socially/culturally (imho).
Festivals for the winter solstice were always (globally) rather unimportant compared with the spring and autumn equinoxes and the midsummer solstice. And all those pagan festivals evolved too, and even shifted, with the precession of the equinoxes. Syncretism probably better word than hijack, because a lot of the pagan persisted … and still does (imho) … and remains rather important socially/culturally (imho).
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I do not disagree with you there but my use of 'get', was in response to the OP's question only.
> Why this extraordinary emphasis on 'get' rather than give, I wonder?
> Answer: because we're a sick society, I suspect.
I do not disagree with you there but my use of 'get', was in response to the OP's question only.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Wow Gordon, do you really think dissonance is being entirely serious?
> Mindboggling. Revealing. Shocking. And very sad.
Wow Gordon, do you really think dissonance is being entirely serious?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
For any "get" there has to be a "give"... Stop playing the Scrooge, an extra bucket of coal won't break the bank
For any "get" there has to be a "give"... Stop playing the Scrooge, an extra bucket of coal won't break the bank
In reply to The New NickB:
A jaw droppingly unaware comment from Gordon!? Or return sarcasm??
> Wow Gordon, do you really think dissonance is being serious.
A jaw droppingly unaware comment from Gordon!? Or return sarcasm??
In reply to Denni:
Given you believe in some Eastern (as opposed to Middle-Eastern) claptrap, do you do Christmas?
Given you believe in some Eastern (as opposed to Middle-Eastern) claptrap, do you do Christmas?
In reply to Jimbo C:
How can you be an 'orthodox' atheist?
Are you an 'orthodox' none believer in thor?
How can you be an 'orthodox' atheist?
Are you an 'orthodox' none believer in thor?
In reply to Denni:
To me it's mainly an event about family, goodwill and general happy stuff. It doesn't overly matter what the reason for it was.
FWIW, I'd generally consider myself agnostic.
Neil
To me it's mainly an event about family, goodwill and general happy stuff. It doesn't overly matter what the reason for it was.
FWIW, I'd generally consider myself agnostic.
Neil
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
How do you know this? They've recently worked out that stonehenge was all about the winter solstice.
Can you imagine the UK in the winter, with the days getting darker and darker, with no sugar, no heating, no fabrics other than wool, no electric light - I would want a party to hurry in on its way and to bring back the light...
> Festivals for the winter solstice were always (globally) rather unimportant compared with the spring and autumn equinoxes and the midsummer solstice.
How do you know this? They've recently worked out that stonehenge was all about the winter solstice.
Can you imagine the UK in the winter, with the days getting darker and darker, with no sugar, no heating, no fabrics other than wool, no electric light - I would want a party to hurry in on its way and to bring back the light...
In reply to Denni:
What has Christmas got to do with religion? It's an ancient mid winter beanie which got hijacked by Christians, so you can give a present to anyone you like, or just say "Humbug"
What has Christmas got to do with religion? It's an ancient mid winter beanie which got hijacked by Christians, so you can give a present to anyone you like, or just say "Humbug"
In reply to tlm:
Newgrange is also Aligned on the Winter solstice. MidWinter Bonfires and parties are an ancient north European custom to celebrate the suns return. I reckon midWinter solstice was very important at Least since Neolithic Times.
> How do you know this? They've recently worked out that stonehenge was all about the winter solstice.
> Can you imagine the UK in the winter, with the days getting darker and darker, with no sugar, no heating, no fabrics other than wool, no electric light - I would want a party to hurry in on its way and to bring back the light...
Newgrange is also Aligned on the Winter solstice. MidWinter Bonfires and parties are an ancient north European custom to celebrate the suns return. I reckon midWinter solstice was very important at Least since Neolithic Times.
In reply to Choss:
Yes its very important solstice is 21st Christmas 25th, 3 days the sun or son of god dies, and on Christmas is born again, Christianity's roots go back countless years before the Roman/Jewish rewrite.
Yes its very important solstice is 21st Christmas 25th, 3 days the sun or son of god dies, and on Christmas is born again, Christianity's roots go back countless years before the Roman/Jewish rewrite.
Post edited at 08:32
In reply to Gelstat5:
It may be a global time of giving but we are all overdoing with our modern day festival of consumerism!
> Everyone should get presents at Christmas time irrespective of belief,since it is a universal or global time of giving.
It may be a global time of giving but we are all overdoing with our modern day festival of consumerism!
In reply to Timmd:
The 'real' meaning of yuletide is to spend time with friends and family, eating drinking and making merry in an attempt to cheer ourselves up through the dark days of winter.
> Maybe it depends on what you see as the 'real' meaning of Christmas, or the merry making which marks the time of year around the shortest day?
> Yes absolutely, presents are always good. ()
The 'real' meaning of yuletide is to spend time with friends and family, eating drinking and making merry in an attempt to cheer ourselves up through the dark days of winter.
In reply to tlm:
Well it wasn't as bad as all that, there was plenty of fire which is nice and warm, linen is a very ancient fabric and makes it easier to wear layers of lovely warm wool over the top, honey can be set and used pretty much indefinitely and rushlights, candles or oil lamps work pretty well when you don't have books to read. I have spent a winter in a Bronze Age reconstruction and it was really quite pleasant. Food and health were the biggest concerns which is kind of the point of the midwinter feast, get some nutritious grub inside you when you are in a better position to know how much can be spared for the coming three-four months.
Being a pagan the solstice is all about sacrifice but until we get equal rights for indigenous religions I shall just have to make do with a goose.
> Can you imagine the UK in the winter, with the days getting darker and darker, with no sugar, no heating, no fabrics other than wool, no electric light
Well it wasn't as bad as all that, there was plenty of fire which is nice and warm, linen is a very ancient fabric and makes it easier to wear layers of lovely warm wool over the top, honey can be set and used pretty much indefinitely and rushlights, candles or oil lamps work pretty well when you don't have books to read. I have spent a winter in a Bronze Age reconstruction and it was really quite pleasant. Food and health were the biggest concerns which is kind of the point of the midwinter feast, get some nutritious grub inside you when you are in a better position to know how much can be spared for the coming three-four months.
Being a pagan the solstice is all about sacrifice but until we get equal rights for indigenous religions I shall just have to make do with a goose.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
<Tongue in cheek>
Good point, but I'd still say that hijack is the appropriate word. Surely it's not syncretism when you deny the validity of the belief systems you're stealing from?
Anyway, it seems to me that if any group should be eschewing Christmas presents, in the context of what Christmas has become, it should be the Christians, given their head boy's teachings about serving God and Mammon.
</Tongue in cheek>
<Tongue in cheek>
Good point, but I'd still say that hijack is the appropriate word. Surely it's not syncretism when you deny the validity of the belief systems you're stealing from?
Anyway, it seems to me that if any group should be eschewing Christmas presents, in the context of what Christmas has become, it should be the Christians, given their head boy's teachings about serving God and Mammon.
</Tongue in cheek>
In reply to Denni:
its important that everyone gets presents so to keep our consumerist dictatorship afloat
its important that everyone gets presents so to keep our consumerist dictatorship afloat
In reply to Chris the Tall:
That's what I think as well.
> The 'real' meaning of yuletide is to spend time with friends and family, eating drinking and making merry in an attempt to cheer ourselves up through the dark days of winter.
That's what I think as well.
In reply to Denni:
Atheists aren't tied to one ideology so we can do whatever we want The date and traditions of Christmas are pagan/secular in origin so I guess the question is: should Christians get chrimbo pressies?
Atheists aren't tied to one ideology so we can do whatever we want The date and traditions of Christmas are pagan/secular in origin so I guess the question is: should Christians get chrimbo pressies?
In reply to GrantM:
Atheists aren't tied to one ideology
True but only to the extent that there isnt a deity involved, otherwise its more agnosticism
Atheists aren't tied to one ideology
True but only to the extent that there isnt a deity involved, otherwise its more agnosticism
In reply to Denni:
Of course they should. Everyone knows Christmas is the season of capitalism.
> I have no idea!
Of course they should. Everyone knows Christmas is the season of capitalism.
In reply to ByEek:
syncretism in action!
> Of course they should. Everyone knows Christmas is the season of capitalism.
syncretism in action!
In reply to tlm:
No, that's not quite right. The initial belief was that it was all about the summer solstice, then further studies found that it was about both solstices. Then (in 1966) Gerald Hawkins produced his classic study, Stonehenge Decoded which showed convincingly that it was about ALL the main solar and lunar alignments in the year, as well as being an quite accurate eclipse calculator. More recent studies, such as Sun, Moon and Stonehenge by Robert Heath (1998) have only confirmed and strengthened those findings. What is particularly important is the finding that its role as a lunar calendar was at least as important as a solar one, probably more so. But of course no one wants to spoil the midsummer Druid fun. It's harmless enough, however narrowly misconceived it is.
> How do you know this? They've recently worked out that stonehenge was all about the winter solstice.
> Can you imagine the UK in the winter, with the days getting darker and darker, with no sugar, no heating, no fabrics other than wool, no electric light - I would want a party to hurry in on its way and to bring back the light...
No, that's not quite right. The initial belief was that it was all about the summer solstice, then further studies found that it was about both solstices. Then (in 1966) Gerald Hawkins produced his classic study, Stonehenge Decoded which showed convincingly that it was about ALL the main solar and lunar alignments in the year, as well as being an quite accurate eclipse calculator. More recent studies, such as Sun, Moon and Stonehenge by Robert Heath (1998) have only confirmed and strengthened those findings. What is particularly important is the finding that its role as a lunar calendar was at least as important as a solar one, probably more so. But of course no one wants to spoil the midsummer Druid fun. It's harmless enough, however narrowly misconceived it is.
In reply to csw:
Re. syncretism, it's probably worth your studying that a bit further. Quite a few historians have shown just how much of the pagan traditions and symbolism was in fact retained. Others have shown that that is why Catholicism (as opposed to Protestantism) managed/has still managed to have such a hold over people … because of the underlying pagan residue; e.g. Pennethorne Hughes's classic (1952) 'Witchcraft' - a slightly misleading title, because it's a bit broader than that. (I discussed this a bit in my book 'The Peak: Past and Present')
Re. present giving, our family has always been rather low-key about this (mostly just giving each other books and other quite modest presents), not for Christian reasons, but because the gross commercialisation and consumerism of it seems to be missing the point - which is mostly about a family time of relaxation and partying, and a convivial communal celebration of the turning of the year (at the darkest time of year) In my forthcoming sci-fi novel Christmas has become 'Cris Shopping Month'. Any older significance (pagan or Christian) has literally been completely forgotten. (The book is about as tongue-in-cheek as you could possibly imagine i.e wickedly ironic, with much black humour and quite a few very silly jokes.)
> <Tongue in cheek>
> Good point, but I'd still say that hijack is the appropriate word. Surely it's not syncretism when you deny the validity of the belief systems you're stealing from?
> Anyway, it seems to me that if any group should be eschewing Christmas presents, in the context of what Christmas has become, it should be the Christians, given their head boy's teachings about serving God and Mammon.
> </Tongue in cheek>
Re. syncretism, it's probably worth your studying that a bit further. Quite a few historians have shown just how much of the pagan traditions and symbolism was in fact retained. Others have shown that that is why Catholicism (as opposed to Protestantism) managed/has still managed to have such a hold over people … because of the underlying pagan residue; e.g. Pennethorne Hughes's classic (1952) 'Witchcraft' - a slightly misleading title, because it's a bit broader than that. (I discussed this a bit in my book 'The Peak: Past and Present')
Re. present giving, our family has always been rather low-key about this (mostly just giving each other books and other quite modest presents), not for Christian reasons, but because the gross commercialisation and consumerism of it seems to be missing the point - which is mostly about a family time of relaxation and partying, and a convivial communal celebration of the turning of the year (at the darkest time of year) In my forthcoming sci-fi novel Christmas has become 'Cris Shopping Month'. Any older significance (pagan or Christian) has literally been completely forgotten. (The book is about as tongue-in-cheek as you could possibly imagine i.e wickedly ironic, with much black humour and quite a few very silly jokes.)
In reply to Denni:
should Atheists get chrimbo Pressies?
Not if theyve been Naughty girls and boys this year they shouldnt.
should Atheists get chrimbo Pressies?
Not if theyve been Naughty girls and boys this year they shouldnt.
In reply to MG:
sadly I doubt it.
> (In reply to The New NickB)
>
> [...]
>
> A jaw droppingly unaware comment from Gordon!? Or return sarcasm??
>
> [...]
>
> A jaw droppingly unaware comment from Gordon!? Or return sarcasm??
sadly I doubt it.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I know. Why they let that cut down copy become more important than Winterval I have no idea.
> If I could not have any xmas bullshit I would be grateful.
I know. Why they let that cut down copy become more important than Winterval I have no idea.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I make a similar point about the depressing commercialisation of Christmas in my new book (available on Amazon, ideal stocking filler!).
> Re. present giving, our family has always been rather low-key about this (mostly just giving each other books and other quite modest presents), not for Christian reasons, but because the gross commercialisation and consumerism of it seems to be missing the point - which is mostly about a family time of relaxation and partying, and a convivial communal celebration of the turning of the year (at the darkest time of year) In my forthcoming sci-fi novel Christmas has become 'Cris Shopping Month'. Any older significance (pagan or Christian) has literally been completely forgotten. (The book is about as tongue-in-cheek as you could possibly imagine i.e wickedly ironic, with much black humour and quite a few very silly jokes.)
I make a similar point about the depressing commercialisation of Christmas in my new book (available on Amazon, ideal stocking filler!).
In reply to GrantM:
Excellent!
I'm pretty sure that when stone age men first started partying to cheer themselves up in the middle of winter, the old 'uns would be huddled in the background saying 'you know, it's all gone too commercial for me...'
Excellent!
I'm pretty sure that when stone age men first started partying to cheer themselves up in the middle of winter, the old 'uns would be huddled in the background saying 'you know, it's all gone too commercial for me...'
In reply to Denni:
I like giving presents to my loved ones and they're either atheists or lightweight pagans. It's a handy enough time of year to celebrate with friends and family, what with the bank holidays and works shutdowns so why not? I don't believe in virgin pregnancies or sky gods of any description other than weather patterns, but just use Christmas as an excuse for a bit of time with family, gift giving and partying.
Won't be giving anyone a copy of Gordon's book though. ;0)
I like giving presents to my loved ones and they're either atheists or lightweight pagans. It's a handy enough time of year to celebrate with friends and family, what with the bank holidays and works shutdowns so why not? I don't believe in virgin pregnancies or sky gods of any description other than weather patterns, but just use Christmas as an excuse for a bit of time with family, gift giving and partying.
Won't be giving anyone a copy of Gordon's book though. ;0)
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Come on Gordon, switch on your banter radar.
> Why this extraordinary emphasis on 'get' rather than give, I wonder?
> Answer: because we're a sick society, I suspect.
Come on Gordon, switch on your banter radar.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Actually more recent discoveries of post holes have swung it back to the solar alignment theory being current favourite. Though it has to be said that without any written records of the time anything will be speculative
Actually more recent discoveries of post holes have swung it back to the solar alignment theory being current favourite. Though it has to be said that without any written records of the time anything will be speculative
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I once gave a chap a Hand researching acoustic Properties of Neolithic Monuments. Interesting stuff. Looking at Long Barrow acoustics, particularly barrow forecourt acoustics. Stonehenge also Appears to have been constructed with Sound in mind too.
I once gave a chap a Hand researching acoustic Properties of Neolithic Monuments. Interesting stuff. Looking at Long Barrow acoustics, particularly barrow forecourt acoustics. Stonehenge also Appears to have been constructed with Sound in mind too.
In reply to Jonny2vests:
No one seems to have noticed that I wrote that in the middle of the night (2.23 am). Was probably a lot more than half asleep.
> Come on Gordon, switch on your banter radar.
No one seems to have noticed that I wrote that in the middle of the night (2.23 am). Was probably a lot more than half asleep.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Well, I'm behind by 8 hours, so I certainly wouldn't have clocked that.
> No one seems to have noticed that I wrote that in the middle of the night (2.23 am). Was probably a lot more than half asleep.
Well, I'm behind by 8 hours, so I certainly wouldn't have clocked that.
In reply to Denni:
As an atheist, hoping to get lots of presents, can someone of a religious bent explain to me:
Q. If Jesus is a direct descendant of David through Joseph, what does that even mean seeing as Joseph allegedly did not do the deed?
Furthermore, in the thousand years that elapsed between Joseph and Jesus, that's about 35 generations, which equates to something like 35 billion ancestors. Many of those are of course 'repeats', as there are mutiple ways of tracing ancestry back to the same person, but either way, EVERYONE in Israel at the time could make the claim that they are a direct descendant of David. In fact, EVERYONE could have made the claim that they are a direct descendant of 80% of the people that were around 1000 years before, the other 20% having not borne children.
Phew.
As an atheist, hoping to get lots of presents, can someone of a religious bent explain to me:
Q. If Jesus is a direct descendant of David through Joseph, what does that even mean seeing as Joseph allegedly did not do the deed?
Furthermore, in the thousand years that elapsed between Joseph and Jesus, that's about 35 generations, which equates to something like 35 billion ancestors. Many of those are of course 'repeats', as there are mutiple ways of tracing ancestry back to the same person, but either way, EVERYONE in Israel at the time could make the claim that they are a direct descendant of David. In fact, EVERYONE could have made the claim that they are a direct descendant of 80% of the people that were around 1000 years before, the other 20% having not borne children.
Phew.
Post edited at 21:46
In reply to altirando:
Are you suggesting that when JC's official birthday was being discussed, Clinton's cards had a representative there?
Are you suggesting that when JC's official birthday was being discussed, Clinton's cards had a representative there?
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