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Several of my female climbing friends get really annoyed at blokes giving them un-asked for climbing advice. This happens mostly at the wall but sometimes at the crag too. They feel it's patronising and that blokes do it to show off and because they think women can't work it out for themselves.
I try and defend the male side because I think that some blokes are genuinely trying to help but I do feel they have a point when they say that men are far more likely to give un-asked advice to a woman than a man.
Is this the experience of other women climbers on this forum and does it annoy you and what do you do about it ?
To blokes reading this post - are you aware that women may view your advice as patronising and annoying, whereas you may feel you're giving pearls of wisdom ?
I try and defend the male side because I think that some blokes are genuinely trying to help but I do feel they have a point when they say that men are far more likely to give un-asked advice to a woman than a man.
Is this the experience of other women climbers on this forum and does it annoy you and what do you do about it ?
To blokes reading this post - are you aware that women may view your advice as patronising and annoying, whereas you may feel you're giving pearls of wisdom ?
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Why do men think it's ok to give men advice?
Why do women think it's ok to give women advice?
Why do women think it's ok to give men advice?
Are we done yet?
Why do men think it's ok to give men advice?
Why do women think it's ok to give women advice?
Why do women think it's ok to give men advice?
Are we done yet?
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Real answer:
There are less women than men where I climb, I realise that isn't the case everywhere but I get more advice off men and give more to men. Because there happen to be more men.
People who are friendly are friendly, it's nice to have a quick chat with a fellow climber. Well I guess we're both stood below a boulder problem... Lets talk about politics instead!
Real answer:
There are less women than men where I climb, I realise that isn't the case everywhere but I get more advice off men and give more to men. Because there happen to be more men.
People who are friendly are friendly, it's nice to have a quick chat with a fellow climber. Well I guess we're both stood below a boulder problem... Lets talk about politics instead!
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Although it can be helpful, a lot of the time, for me, the joy in a route is the reading of it and working it out. I have met the odd "full beta breakdown" guy at the wall and crag and have been slightly irritated, especially if they haven't asked if I'm looking to get an onsight first. If hanging out in the bouldering room I am usually chatting with people and working through problems together so doesn't bother me too much.
With the "full beta breakdown" guys, I either politely stop them if going for an onsight or listen and say "thank you I will consider those points" but usually end up climbing differently anyway as I am a small female and have developed my style to fit that.
As for being patrionising, yes, sometimes it is. The other day in the boulder room a man called over "hey! Missus, have you tried that one?" As the only female i did not respond and waited for a second call then said "oh me??" He then later approached me and told me "You climb like a man, that's a good thing". I have to say I bit my tounge with that one. I now wish I hadn't.
Luckily my circle of climbing friends and the majority of the locals at the wall are not at all gender biased but I have had my fair share of morons making unwanted comments!!
Although it can be helpful, a lot of the time, for me, the joy in a route is the reading of it and working it out. I have met the odd "full beta breakdown" guy at the wall and crag and have been slightly irritated, especially if they haven't asked if I'm looking to get an onsight first. If hanging out in the bouldering room I am usually chatting with people and working through problems together so doesn't bother me too much.
With the "full beta breakdown" guys, I either politely stop them if going for an onsight or listen and say "thank you I will consider those points" but usually end up climbing differently anyway as I am a small female and have developed my style to fit that.
As for being patrionising, yes, sometimes it is. The other day in the boulder room a man called over "hey! Missus, have you tried that one?" As the only female i did not respond and waited for a second call then said "oh me??" He then later approached me and told me "You climb like a man, that's a good thing". I have to say I bit my tounge with that one. I now wish I hadn't.
Luckily my circle of climbing friends and the majority of the locals at the wall are not at all gender biased but I have had my fair share of morons making unwanted comments!!
In reply to Beth-Cath-T:
I sense that you're a bit of a feminist beth cath.
That's good........................I like that in my women
youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w&
I sense that you're a bit of a feminist beth cath.
That's good........................I like that in my women
youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w&
In reply to Dave Reeve:
You must mean "boys". Real men know it's pointless trying to give a woman advice about anything as they already know best
You must mean "boys". Real men know it's pointless trying to give a woman advice about anything as they already know best
Of course its ok to give women climbing advice. Men too.
Maybe they weren't giving advice as such, maybe they were trying to pick up.
Maybe they weren't giving advice as such, maybe they were trying to pick up.
In reply to coinneach:
I guess I am one of those females with a "wild and dangerous opinion of her own" :P
I guess I am one of those females with a "wild and dangerous opinion of her own" :P
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Oh and just to add I can be a bit of a beta giver myself at times, then realise the hypocrisy and try to allow people to have their own "pre climb" space!
Oh and just to add I can be a bit of a beta giver myself at times, then realise the hypocrisy and try to allow people to have their own "pre climb" space!
In reply to Dave Reeve:
A couple of reasons:
1) there are more men climbing than women usually, hence you're more likely to be given advice by a man
2) I think men are more likely to give advice generally than women, not sure why that is but I've noticed this to be the case
3) Men generally tend to climb a bit harder than women (based on my observations at the bouldering wall). Hence they're more likely to give advice as they are more likely to have done the problem.
4) Women have boobs and may be climbing in skimpy clothing therefore it's more likely that a man will be watching a woman climb.
I don't think it's anything sinister and I've not felt patronised by people trying to give me beta. It's only annoying when their beta involves doing moves I've already tried and can't do due to being a shortarse. Then I like to get my revenge by giving them ridiculous flexible midget beta involving loads of heel hooking and high steps. Ha!
A couple of reasons:
1) there are more men climbing than women usually, hence you're more likely to be given advice by a man
2) I think men are more likely to give advice generally than women, not sure why that is but I've noticed this to be the case
3) Men generally tend to climb a bit harder than women (based on my observations at the bouldering wall). Hence they're more likely to give advice as they are more likely to have done the problem.
4) Women have boobs and may be climbing in skimpy clothing therefore it's more likely that a man will be watching a woman climb.
I don't think it's anything sinister and I've not felt patronised by people trying to give me beta. It's only annoying when their beta involves doing moves I've already tried and can't do due to being a shortarse. Then I like to get my revenge by giving them ridiculous flexible midget beta involving loads of heel hooking and high steps. Ha!
Post edited at 22:06
In reply to Dave Reeve:
It's not a male / female thing. I get pissed off with unrequested advice or pointers when I'm climbing.
It's not a male / female thing. I get pissed off with unrequested advice or pointers when I'm climbing.
Post edited at 22:10
In reply to Beat me to it!:
Yeah, I think if a person is of the type to give advice to randoms, they are giving advice both to men and women.
I don't mind receiving the odd tip after failing a move several times ('try your heel instead' - 'oh yeah, cheers mate'), but the full breakdown complete with exagerated hand movements is just too much.
Yeah, I think if a person is of the type to give advice to randoms, they are giving advice both to men and women.
I don't mind receiving the odd tip after failing a move several times ('try your heel instead' - 'oh yeah, cheers mate'), but the full breakdown complete with exagerated hand movements is just too much.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
A few people have hit the nail on the head, men are often trying to pull and think that the best way of showing anyone how "fit" they are in an evolutionary sense is to display physical ability. Pointing out all the moves on a route suggests that they have done the route successfully already and are fit as a fiddle. Whether they think it's OK or not doesn't really come into it, that would involve thinking.
I say this as a bloke who's often come away from such situations cursing myself for such activity.
A few people have hit the nail on the head, men are often trying to pull and think that the best way of showing anyone how "fit" they are in an evolutionary sense is to display physical ability. Pointing out all the moves on a route suggests that they have done the route successfully already and are fit as a fiddle. Whether they think it's OK or not doesn't really come into it, that would involve thinking.
I say this as a bloke who's often come away from such situations cursing myself for such activity.
In reply to Beat me to it!:
Gary Gibson has a habit of walking round crags dispensing unsolicited advice like sowing a field. I thought giving advice was all part of the indoor culture. I don't think there is much point in turning it into a battle of the sexes though. It's all getting very confusing for us males, I even got abused for holding a door open for one woman.
Gary Gibson has a habit of walking round crags dispensing unsolicited advice like sowing a field. I thought giving advice was all part of the indoor culture. I don't think there is much point in turning it into a battle of the sexes though. It's all getting very confusing for us males, I even got abused for holding a door open for one woman.
In reply to GridNorth:
In my late teens or early twenties I had a lady look grumpy and stride through when I let her through a door since she was coming the other way.
I've done the same for blokes so it's not something I think about, people can be annoyed or pleased, it's up to them. I'll not stop being friendly. ()
In my late teens or early twenties I had a lady look grumpy and stride through when I let her through a door since she was coming the other way.
I've done the same for blokes so it's not something I think about, people can be annoyed or pleased, it's up to them. I'll not stop being friendly. ()
Post edited at 22:43
In reply to Beth-Cath-T:
> I guess I am one of those females with a "wild and dangerous opinion of her own" :P
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Because if they do it wrong and fluff it they may end up incapacitated and we wont get no tea or clean shirts
Because if they do it wrong and fluff it they may end up incapacitated and we wont get no tea or clean shirts
In reply to Beth-Cath-T:
I agree with you about finding pleasure in working out the moves for myself.. I don't like being unsolicited advice either... it reduces the challenge and the satisfaction of getting the route/problem.
I agree with you about finding pleasure in working out the moves for myself.. I don't like being unsolicited advice either... it reduces the challenge and the satisfaction of getting the route/problem.
In reply to Timmd:
I hope you had a go at her for being a cartoon feminist sexist cow
> I've done the same for blokes
I hope you had a go at her for being a cartoon feminist sexist cow
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Tell them about the Bechdel Test. If they start mithering about how they no longer like previously favourite or classic films, ditch the lot of them
> Several of my female climbing friends....
Tell them about the Bechdel Test. If they start mithering about how they no longer like previously favourite or classic films, ditch the lot of them
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I like constructive help, if I'm stuck, I don't like to be told do it this way that way every move.
I don't care if it's men or women. Both sexes have annoyed me on this in the past but not regularly.
I have found that I have different strengths to the men I climb with so their advice can be less useful, than someone with a similar build to myself, but telling them you'd like to work a different sequence since it dosn't feel right should shut them up. Failing that 'could you shut up please' should do it.
When giving advice I try to put it as advice not insisting what to do, as that is rather annoying in reverse. I mainly give it on a safety issue like dangerous belaying , a climber putting their foot behind the rope alot, using only one bolt to rap off when two were available etc.
I like constructive help, if I'm stuck, I don't like to be told do it this way that way every move.
I don't care if it's men or women. Both sexes have annoyed me on this in the past but not regularly.
I have found that I have different strengths to the men I climb with so their advice can be less useful, than someone with a similar build to myself, but telling them you'd like to work a different sequence since it dosn't feel right should shut them up. Failing that 'could you shut up please' should do it.
When giving advice I try to put it as advice not insisting what to do, as that is rather annoying in reverse. I mainly give it on a safety issue like dangerous belaying , a climber putting their foot behind the rope alot, using only one bolt to rap off when two were available etc.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
It's a given that people will try and give out advice male or female. I don't mind at all! However telling me to, just reach upto that next hold can be very frustrating when I'm usually a good ten inches shorter than them!
It's a given that people will try and give out advice male or female. I don't mind at all! However telling me to, just reach upto that next hold can be very frustrating when I'm usually a good ten inches shorter than them!
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Best advice is to ignore all advice. It's probably wrong or suited to yourself.
Best advice is to ignore all advice. It's probably wrong or suited to yourself.
Post edited at 00:50
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Your friends sound like sourpuss. I stick to giving un-asked for advice to kids in the bouldering gym. They're usually pretty excited if a big dude takes interest in their climbing, and they can often climb a lot harder than expected with the right beta.
It amazes me how many times people get butt-hurt when someone points out an obvious safety hazard like back clipping at the wall. I refrain from commenting on unsafe practice unless it is really very dangerous or I feel my own safety is compromised.
Your friends sound like sourpuss. I stick to giving un-asked for advice to kids in the bouldering gym. They're usually pretty excited if a big dude takes interest in their climbing, and they can often climb a lot harder than expected with the right beta.
It amazes me how many times people get butt-hurt when someone points out an obvious safety hazard like back clipping at the wall. I refrain from commenting on unsafe practice unless it is really very dangerous or I feel my own safety is compromised.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Men are bastards. How dare they tell a women that it might be better heel hooking round a corner to stop the barn door as they reach for the final hold. They should be beaten and repeatedly forced watch that Dan Osman video. Just because they can help doesn't mean they should, I don't go bouldering to be harassed by the likes of 'steve'. F*ck off and die already Steve, I am not going to have your babies because you helped me flash that overhanging blue with that knee-bar rest beta. What do you think I am, a beta whore?
Men are bastards. How dare they tell a women that it might be better heel hooking round a corner to stop the barn door as they reach for the final hold. They should be beaten and repeatedly forced watch that Dan Osman video. Just because they can help doesn't mean they should, I don't go bouldering to be harassed by the likes of 'steve'. F*ck off and die already Steve, I am not going to have your babies because you helped me flash that overhanging blue with that knee-bar rest beta. What do you think I am, a beta whore?
In reply to tistimetogo:
Quality bit of advice there.
> Best advice is to ignore all advice. It's probably wrong or suited to yourself.
Quality bit of advice there.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
There there dear, keep your knickers on.
youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8Csll9Ws&
> To blokes reading this post - are you aware that women may view your advice as patronising and annoying, whereas you may feel you're giving pearls of wisdom ?
There there dear, keep your knickers on.
youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8Csll9Ws&
Post edited at 06:01
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I'm amazed how many times people (both male and female, but mostly male) like to give out unsolicited advice at my local wall AND how they firmly believe that there is only one way, one sequence, to complete any given route!
I think this may be why it seems worse for female climbers, as the guys are often giving out a sequence that involves power and reach that suits just themselves.
I did recently explain to another climber that by providing such detailed beta (without me asking for it or in fact even knowing the person at all) that they were ruining my climbing session, as part of the fun is the problem solving experience.
I'm amazed how many times people (both male and female, but mostly male) like to give out unsolicited advice at my local wall AND how they firmly believe that there is only one way, one sequence, to complete any given route!
I think this may be why it seems worse for female climbers, as the guys are often giving out a sequence that involves power and reach that suits just themselves.
I did recently explain to another climber that by providing such detailed beta (without me asking for it or in fact even knowing the person at all) that they were ruining my climbing session, as part of the fun is the problem solving experience.
In reply to stroppygob:
thats a scream - thanks
I have a tactic with any climber I'm trying to help - of remaining silent until they do something correct - which wins them a 'GOOD' as confirmation.
As a complete reverse, I know some people (more often women ??) who can't perform *unless* they get constant attention and coaxing. I have my own motivation and I expect others to have theirs.
thats a scream - thanks
I have a tactic with any climber I'm trying to help - of remaining silent until they do something correct - which wins them a 'GOOD' as confirmation.
As a complete reverse, I know some people (more often women ??) who can't perform *unless* they get constant attention and coaxing. I have my own motivation and I expect others to have theirs.
In reply to Dave Reeve: Its not just climbing where it happens. My wife is a very experienced xc mountain biker with plenty of race wins to her name and she still gets fat blokes on their new bikes 'advising' her on the best line, race tactic etc! She's too polite to say anything but 'thanks, I'll bare that in mind'. Needless to say she doesn't see them again till after the race!
In reply to andyjirvin:
The answer is to quietly nod and smile as they talk to you then proceed to easily flash the problem using a completely different sequence.
This is often not so difficult because people tend to give you advice on a problem that they've found tricky because the unsaid message they are giving you is that they've managed to do a tricky problem but looking at you they think that if they struggled you are going to have a hard time too.
It's interesting how people judge you by your looks before they've actually seen you climb anything.
There is also genuinely helpful advice which comes more naturally when there are a few of you working on the same problem.
> I'm amazed how many times people (both male and female, but mostly male) like to give out unsolicited advice at my local wall AND how they firmly believe that there is only one way, one sequence, to complete any given route!
The answer is to quietly nod and smile as they talk to you then proceed to easily flash the problem using a completely different sequence.
This is often not so difficult because people tend to give you advice on a problem that they've found tricky because the unsaid message they are giving you is that they've managed to do a tricky problem but looking at you they think that if they struggled you are going to have a hard time too.
It's interesting how people judge you by your looks before they've actually seen you climb anything.
There is also genuinely helpful advice which comes more naturally when there are a few of you working on the same problem.
Post edited at 09:42
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I dont see what the big deal is. Isnt climbing meant to be fun?
If you dont want suggestions (from either sex) then just say thanks but you want to work it out for yourself. Then crack on and show him how its done. Only a really pushy person would take it beyond that.
I cant see it is worth getting your knickers in a twist over.
If its a case of him trying to pull (this has NEVER happened to me!)then i'd take it as a compliment with a smile and then shuffle off back to my delicious other half.
I cant help but feel women who would get outraged by this sort of behaviour wind themselves up more than the "perpetrator"!
I dont see what the big deal is. Isnt climbing meant to be fun?
If you dont want suggestions (from either sex) then just say thanks but you want to work it out for yourself. Then crack on and show him how its done. Only a really pushy person would take it beyond that.
I cant see it is worth getting your knickers in a twist over.
If its a case of him trying to pull (this has NEVER happened to me!)then i'd take it as a compliment with a smile and then shuffle off back to my delicious other half.
I cant help but feel women who would get outraged by this sort of behaviour wind themselves up more than the "perpetrator"!
In reply to GridNorth:
With good intent though, to be fair. Anyway he's given up with me after I pointed out the 18 inches difference in our reach.
> Gary Gibson has a habit of walking round crags dispensing unsolicited advice
With good intent though, to be fair. Anyway he's given up with me after I pointed out the 18 inches difference in our reach.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I was too taken aback, and it's not really in my nature to.
> I hope you had a go at her for being a cartoon feminist sexist cow
I was too taken aback, and it's not really in my nature to.
In reply to Timmd:
I wasn't being serious
> I was too taken aback, and it's not really in my nature to.
I wasn't being serious
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I'd suggest that your friends need to lighten up, lose the chip, and accept that social interaction is part of life and that, life being what it is, not at all attempts to initiate social interaction are successful.
HTH
jcm
I'd suggest that your friends need to lighten up, lose the chip, and accept that social interaction is part of life and that, life being what it is, not at all attempts to initiate social interaction are successful.
HTH
jcm
In reply to GridNorth:
GG probably gives advice because he loves to see people getting up things. I'm sure that he'd stop if you asked him.
Speaking personally, I'd only give beta if it's obvious that someone wants or needs it. Sometimes it's a tough distinction to make but it's generally really easy to pick up on the frosty vibes from someone who doesn't want help.
GG probably gives advice because he loves to see people getting up things. I'm sure that he'd stop if you asked him.
Speaking personally, I'd only give beta if it's obvious that someone wants or needs it. Sometimes it's a tough distinction to make but it's generally really easy to pick up on the frosty vibes from someone who doesn't want help.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
If I can see someone has been totally stuck on a move for a while and they're quite obviously flailing around missing something obvious (heel around an arete, not seeing a hold etc) I might say something like - "tricky move that, have you tried xxxx? Took me ages to figure that one out". If someone needs move by move analysis then I figure they're better working it out on their own.
If someone has just started working something or they still look like they're trying different things then I won't say anything.
Advice is just someone else's way of doing something, no one has to follow it and no one is asking them to. Most of my climbing friendships at indoor and outdoor venues have started from sharing beta on a boulder problem.
If I do talk to someone about a move (which is rare) I'm much more likely to give advice to a man as there are more of them generally. I am not trying to get into either sexes pants, just trying to be friendly. You know, because climbing is a social sport and unless it's pre-organised has little competition between participants.
Maybe if no-one wants to talk to each other they should wear headphones, build a woody or go somewhere that is less friendly. Or just learn to accept or refuse advice.
If I can see someone has been totally stuck on a move for a while and they're quite obviously flailing around missing something obvious (heel around an arete, not seeing a hold etc) I might say something like - "tricky move that, have you tried xxxx? Took me ages to figure that one out". If someone needs move by move analysis then I figure they're better working it out on their own.
If someone has just started working something or they still look like they're trying different things then I won't say anything.
Advice is just someone else's way of doing something, no one has to follow it and no one is asking them to. Most of my climbing friendships at indoor and outdoor venues have started from sharing beta on a boulder problem.
If I do talk to someone about a move (which is rare) I'm much more likely to give advice to a man as there are more of them generally. I am not trying to get into either sexes pants, just trying to be friendly. You know, because climbing is a social sport and unless it's pre-organised has little competition between participants.
Maybe if no-one wants to talk to each other they should wear headphones, build a woody or go somewhere that is less friendly. Or just learn to accept or refuse advice.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
because all men are subconsciously trying to diminish women? is that what you want to read. build a bridge
because all men are subconsciously trying to diminish women? is that what you want to read. build a bridge
In reply to GridNorth:
I love holding doors open for men and waving them through! They always beam with delight. I tell them they should make the most of these days of equal opportunity, as they hesitate before going through before me. All people should be spoilt and pampered a bit from time to time.
> I even got abused for holding a door open for one woman.
I love holding doors open for men and waving them through! They always beam with delight. I tell them they should make the most of these days of equal opportunity, as they hesitate before going through before me. All people should be spoilt and pampered a bit from time to time.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
... I agree with jcm & alooker
climbers seem to give beta quite a lot at the Works - I think its great.
... I agree with jcm & alooker
climbers seem to give beta quite a lot at the Works - I think its great.
Post edited at 12:10
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I've not really noticed this as a men/women issue. I think that the key is, people hang around giving unwanted advice on any route where they have finally managed to do it themselves (having found it hard). Then if they see anyone else struggling on it, male or female, they start giving out the advice. Don't we all do it to a certain degree? I just usually can't find anyone struggling on anything that I have managed to do!
It isn't about being patronising to anyone - it's about trying to feel like a big shot hard climber for once.... It's all part of the climbing culture - that uncompetitive sport where everything is a secret competition.
I've not really noticed this as a men/women issue. I think that the key is, people hang around giving unwanted advice on any route where they have finally managed to do it themselves (having found it hard). Then if they see anyone else struggling on it, male or female, they start giving out the advice. Don't we all do it to a certain degree? I just usually can't find anyone struggling on anything that I have managed to do!
It isn't about being patronising to anyone - it's about trying to feel like a big shot hard climber for once.... It's all part of the climbing culture - that uncompetitive sport where everything is a secret competition.
In reply to ChrisJD:
In any case, I thought climbing walls left littleto the imagination and couldn't possibly warrant beta given ?
In any case, I thought climbing walls left littleto the imagination and couldn't possibly warrant beta given ?
In reply to tlm:
You could also so see it as sharing enthousiasm.
I've never been annoyed by anyone giving me beta, usually I see it as an opportunity to learn something new. Also I'm not that interested in endlessly working a problem / route after I failing to flash it, especially not in the gym. And I can't recall having ever been 'adviced' about a route before trying it myself.
You could also so see it as sharing enthousiasm.
I've never been annoyed by anyone giving me beta, usually I see it as an opportunity to learn something new. Also I'm not that interested in endlessly working a problem / route after I failing to flash it, especially not in the gym. And I can't recall having ever been 'adviced' about a route before trying it myself.
In reply to LeeWood:
You've not been to the Climbing Works then. They are great problem setters.
> In any case, I thought climbing walls left little to the imagination and couldn't possibly warrant beta given ?
You've not been to the Climbing Works then. They are great problem setters.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
As others have pointed out, this isn't just a male to female thing. Once while climbing in Dorset, a local climber we met through a mutual friend not only felt the need to describe every route we attempted (including shouting beta at us while climbing) but also criticised my belaying which wasn't unsafe at all, my use of the bowline and started telling me how to clean a route as if I'd never been sport climbing before. He meant well, but he still pissed me off. If the advice is unwanted and unneeded it will come across as patronising regardless of the intentions.
As others have pointed out, this isn't just a male to female thing. Once while climbing in Dorset, a local climber we met through a mutual friend not only felt the need to describe every route we attempted (including shouting beta at us while climbing) but also criticised my belaying which wasn't unsafe at all, my use of the bowline and started telling me how to clean a route as if I'd never been sport climbing before. He meant well, but he still pissed me off. If the advice is unwanted and unneeded it will come across as patronising regardless of the intentions.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Lots of reasons, from altruism to sexism and probably to chat to a pretty lady.
More relevant and amusing/irritating depending on how sensitive you are is people asking for advice. When I'm in the hills, if I encounter someone who is lost or looking for some route advice etc, they always, without fail, approach the man I'm with if I'm with one. I'm an ML and the man I'm with is usually a client who hasn't a scoobie where he is, so this is often very funny.
Lots of reasons, from altruism to sexism and probably to chat to a pretty lady.
More relevant and amusing/irritating depending on how sensitive you are is people asking for advice. When I'm in the hills, if I encounter someone who is lost or looking for some route advice etc, they always, without fail, approach the man I'm with if I'm with one. I'm an ML and the man I'm with is usually a client who hasn't a scoobie where he is, so this is often very funny.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Is this really such a big deal on indoors climbing walls? It's not as if there is a huge amount of working out most of the time and at busy walls you probably have seen 2-3 people doing the problem before you get a chance to have a go anyway. Also the problems are transient and won't be there after a few weeks so it's not as if anyone's ticking off anything important.
I personally try to be a bit careful to who I give advice to but I think looking back I tend to give more advice to people that are complete beginners and/or really stuck and frustrated with a problem.
I'd say probably 95% of the time people are really appreciative and personally wish people gave me more advice when I was killing my arms and going nowhere when I first started.
I think apart from the obvious (flirting/showing off), maybe the reason people are more inclined to give advice to women is that some men REALLY look like they would get seriously angry at the hint of there being a better way of doing a move
Is this really such a big deal on indoors climbing walls? It's not as if there is a huge amount of working out most of the time and at busy walls you probably have seen 2-3 people doing the problem before you get a chance to have a go anyway. Also the problems are transient and won't be there after a few weeks so it's not as if anyone's ticking off anything important.
I personally try to be a bit careful to who I give advice to but I think looking back I tend to give more advice to people that are complete beginners and/or really stuck and frustrated with a problem.
I'd say probably 95% of the time people are really appreciative and personally wish people gave me more advice when I was killing my arms and going nowhere when I first started.
I think apart from the obvious (flirting/showing off), maybe the reason people are more inclined to give advice to women is that some men REALLY look like they would get seriously angry at the hint of there being a better way of doing a move
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Not read the whole thread through, but I have to share this story of the flipside - a young lady telling me how to abseil at the top of the Devil's Slide. The kicker is, and I still can't work this out, why was she wearing a head torch?!
Not read the whole thread through, but I have to share this story of the flipside - a young lady telling me how to abseil at the top of the Devil's Slide. The kicker is, and I still can't work this out, why was she wearing a head torch?!
In reply to Simos:
Yeah, I'd agree with this. If I give beta at the bouldering wall, its usually after watching the person (man or woman) fail a few times and look stuck.
If I'm stuck I appreciate advice too and have been amazed at the difference a small adjustment to a foot or hand hold can make, one that I may never have discovered myself.
Yeah, I'd agree with this. If I give beta at the bouldering wall, its usually after watching the person (man or woman) fail a few times and look stuck.
If I'm stuck I appreciate advice too and have been amazed at the difference a small adjustment to a foot or hand hold can make, one that I may never have discovered myself.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I generally do the opposite - being a shortarse I tend to prefer girl's advice for climbing routes :P I am also weaker than most of both the girls and the boys in the club
I generally do the opposite - being a shortarse I tend to prefer girl's advice for climbing routes :P I am also weaker than most of both the girls and the boys in the club
In reply to Dave Reeve:
it's true, its patronising- but the brilliant thing is if you act like a complete blonde then kick their ass on the same route. i do it all the time at the wall- watch guys thugging their way up stuff, and failing- then go over and casually do the route. yeah- the assumption is we are worse and need their help, also a possible leg over.... good topic
it's true, its patronising- but the brilliant thing is if you act like a complete blonde then kick their ass on the same route. i do it all the time at the wall- watch guys thugging their way up stuff, and failing- then go over and casually do the route. yeah- the assumption is we are worse and need their help, also a possible leg over.... good topic
In reply to Dave Reeve:
Have to admit i'm often guilty of spraying beta around, But i generally try and limit it to mates that are stuck or regular faces that i've sessioned with before. Have asked for help on some problems as well! There are a couple of little groups of boulderers that often approach me and ask for beta as well though.
Have to admit i'm often guilty of spraying beta around, But i generally try and limit it to mates that are stuck or regular faces that i've sessioned with before. Have asked for help on some problems as well! There are a couple of little groups of boulderers that often approach me and ask for beta as well though.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I get loads of "advice" from women when they find out I'm a stay at home dad.
Some of them clearly think men are not capable of such a function and the poor child is unwashed and starved.
I just politely ignore them as they clearly have the hang up, not me. Although have on occasion been known to put someone firmly in their place when the advice becomes more of a dig at men generally and how useless we all are or rather, how useless their other half is.
If they feel it is patronising, then I reckon that is more their problem than the advice giver.
I get loads of "advice" from women when they find out I'm a stay at home dad.
Some of them clearly think men are not capable of such a function and the poor child is unwashed and starved.
I just politely ignore them as they clearly have the hang up, not me. Although have on occasion been known to put someone firmly in their place when the advice becomes more of a dig at men generally and how useless we all are or rather, how useless their other half is.
If they feel it is patronising, then I reckon that is more their problem than the advice giver.
In reply to Denni:
So in other words, if a female gives you advice then they are either rudely ignored or rudely jumped on and clearly, in your opinion, have hang ups. On the other hand if it's you giving advice to a female and they treat you in the same way as you would them then they are being unreasonable.
No doubt you can't stand hipocrisy, but are always prepared to make an exception in your own case.
So in other words, if a female gives you advice then they are either rudely ignored or rudely jumped on and clearly, in your opinion, have hang ups. On the other hand if it's you giving advice to a female and they treat you in the same way as you would them then they are being unreasonable.
No doubt you can't stand hipocrisy, but are always prepared to make an exception in your own case.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I really don't mind, and if it is annoying me I'll usually just tell them to stop. It only really gets to me during my warm up if people are coming up in rental shoes and offering their advice on the VB i'm climbing. This is a common trend at The Arch.
One thing that does kind of drive me mad is the unwanted close spots from people I've never met. Don't touch my butt unless I ask you too. Or at least say "Hi" first....
I really don't mind, and if it is annoying me I'll usually just tell them to stop. It only really gets to me during my warm up if people are coming up in rental shoes and offering their advice on the VB i'm climbing. This is a common trend at The Arch.
One thing that does kind of drive me mad is the unwanted close spots from people I've never met. Don't touch my butt unless I ask you too. Or at least say "Hi" first....
1
In reply to Sally Bustyerface:
I don't tend to give out advice unless it is asked for. As for rudely ignoring someone, what is the matter with tht exactly? If I don't want to speak to someone because they can't understand that a man can stay at home and look after children then why should I entertain them? And yes, it usually boils down to "well my husband couldn't do that" as if because he can't, others can't either so yes, it is their hang up not mine.
The use of the word advice in inverted commas kind of gives the game away. It isn't actually advice, it is along the lines of "But shouldn't you be out working and not your wife?" That is not advice, that is an uneducated statement.
I don't tend to give out advice unless it is asked for. As for rudely ignoring someone, what is the matter with tht exactly? If I don't want to speak to someone because they can't understand that a man can stay at home and look after children then why should I entertain them? And yes, it usually boils down to "well my husband couldn't do that" as if because he can't, others can't either so yes, it is their hang up not mine.
The use of the word advice in inverted commas kind of gives the game away. It isn't actually advice, it is along the lines of "But shouldn't you be out working and not your wife?" That is not advice, that is an uneducated statement.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
And I too have not read the whole thread. But I would suggest that one person giving another person advice with regard to their climbing performance is not to be denigrated. Why not?
It may be that the recipient of the advice doesn't want it. I certainly never responded well to people saying 'you do it like this'. And my then partner would often tell them to 'f' off as she didn't want any beta (even mine!).
You seem to see (or is it that its that all your female friends 'see') that there is a bias in giving advice. Perhaps there is a research project in there.
Perhaps it is akin to the many and varied mating rituals that one sees in the wild and even in adolescent humans.
And I too have not read the whole thread. But I would suggest that one person giving another person advice with regard to their climbing performance is not to be denigrated. Why not?
It may be that the recipient of the advice doesn't want it. I certainly never responded well to people saying 'you do it like this'. And my then partner would often tell them to 'f' off as she didn't want any beta (even mine!).
You seem to see (or is it that its that all your female friends 'see') that there is a bias in giving advice. Perhaps there is a research project in there.
Perhaps it is akin to the many and varied mating rituals that one sees in the wild and even in adolescent humans.
In reply to Snoweider:
.....When I'm in the hills, if I encounter someone who is lost or looking for some route advice etc, they always, without fail, approach the man I'm with if I'm with one....
Are you saying there are MEN who ask for directions when lost !
.....When I'm in the hills, if I encounter someone who is lost or looking for some route advice etc, they always, without fail, approach the man I'm with if I'm with one....
Are you saying there are MEN who ask for directions when lost !
In reply to air:
Hi.
To Sally
I see a difference here. At the wall, either someone manages a problem or they don't, you are in a pretty good position to tell if they are succeeding or failing. To make the assumption that a parent is failing based on no evidence other than he is a man is sexist.
However, if a teacher advises a man that his child is failing and turning up to school unwashed and in dirty clothes, that is different. The teacher is in a reasonable position to judge that the parent is perfoming under-par. This is not sexist.
Hi.
To Sally
> So in other words, if a female gives you advice then they are either rudely ignored or rudely jumped on and clearly, in your opinion, have hang ups. On the other hand if it's you giving advice to a female and they treat you in the same way as you would them then they are being unreasonable.
I see a difference here. At the wall, either someone manages a problem or they don't, you are in a pretty good position to tell if they are succeeding or failing. To make the assumption that a parent is failing based on no evidence other than he is a man is sexist.
However, if a teacher advises a man that his child is failing and turning up to school unwashed and in dirty clothes, that is different. The teacher is in a reasonable position to judge that the parent is perfoming under-par. This is not sexist.
I have been given technique advice by women more than guys at the climbing or bouldering wall, and it generally tends to be good advice as well as women tend to in my experience climb with better technique than lots of guys who can get away with natural brute strength as an advantage.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
the responses from men on this thread are generally a lot more reasonable and mature than the responses from women.
the responses from men on this thread are generally a lot more reasonable and mature than the responses from women.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I love the ignorance assumptions and stereotyping that comes with gender beta. I climb with a lot of girls and the person best with the delicate footwork is an ex rugby player*(big yet soft strong man). and one of the strongest people most likely to dyno is a short girl. Kinda has to climb with strength to lock off and then some or move dynamically when that doesn't work.
I quite enjoy it when someone goes oh that doesn't work for me, and then tries it and returns with a thank you for the help. At the end of the day its a game we all play with our various shapes and sizes, advantages and disadvantages. When we climb together, most of us use two feet and two hands what more is there to climbing.
gender only truly matters as a starting block, and what better in the beginning than to work to your disadvantages. Climb strong reach climbs if your weak and short or try balancing footwork routes if you rely on your arms too much. I cant do it like that because I'm a ...... (insert gender here) is just one of a million climbing excuses that we all use.
It's like Mina said why shouldn't women look up to a male role model in climbing, they are good enough to do better to aspire to be a good climber not a good male/female climber.
I am male 6ft and my role model Lynn Hill 5ft 2. if that matters I think not.
I love the ignorance assumptions and stereotyping that comes with gender beta. I climb with a lot of girls and the person best with the delicate footwork is an ex rugby player*(big yet soft strong man). and one of the strongest people most likely to dyno is a short girl. Kinda has to climb with strength to lock off and then some or move dynamically when that doesn't work.
I quite enjoy it when someone goes oh that doesn't work for me, and then tries it and returns with a thank you for the help. At the end of the day its a game we all play with our various shapes and sizes, advantages and disadvantages. When we climb together, most of us use two feet and two hands what more is there to climbing.
gender only truly matters as a starting block, and what better in the beginning than to work to your disadvantages. Climb strong reach climbs if your weak and short or try balancing footwork routes if you rely on your arms too much. I cant do it like that because I'm a ...... (insert gender here) is just one of a million climbing excuses that we all use.
It's like Mina said why shouldn't women look up to a male role model in climbing, they are good enough to do better to aspire to be a good climber not a good male/female climber.
I am male 6ft and my role model Lynn Hill 5ft 2. if that matters I think not.
In reply to Dave Reeve:
I've been in some of these situations. The other day I hesitated and then backed out of a move on a V2 because I wanted to warm up a bit more. On the downclimb, a male climber (who was half way up the wall to my right) proceeded to loudly take me through the beta. It did annoy me at first because I didn't need or ask for this advice, I didn't want the attention of other climbers on me and I honestly didn't like the idea of being seen as a novice- That's a bit of pride on my part Anyway, once we were both on the ground I explained why I didn't complete the problem. We had a nice chat about how we would have approached the move differently and any offence on my part was dissolved.
I doubt beta-givers really want to ruin your session ladies. You might as well be as gracious as you can, politely declining further advice and explaining why. Climbers are generally quite proud of the knowledge they've acquired and can be eager to share it- especially if they're fairly new to climbing and can see themselves improving quickly. Put it down as a nuby mistake, don't be angry and just go over the etiquette if it's still bugging you (in an non-patronising way! :P)
I've been in some of these situations. The other day I hesitated and then backed out of a move on a V2 because I wanted to warm up a bit more. On the downclimb, a male climber (who was half way up the wall to my right) proceeded to loudly take me through the beta. It did annoy me at first because I didn't need or ask for this advice, I didn't want the attention of other climbers on me and I honestly didn't like the idea of being seen as a novice- That's a bit of pride on my part Anyway, once we were both on the ground I explained why I didn't complete the problem. We had a nice chat about how we would have approached the move differently and any offence on my part was dissolved.
I doubt beta-givers really want to ruin your session ladies. You might as well be as gracious as you can, politely declining further advice and explaining why. Climbers are generally quite proud of the knowledge they've acquired and can be eager to share it- especially if they're fairly new to climbing and can see themselves improving quickly. Put it down as a nuby mistake, don't be angry and just go over the etiquette if it's still bugging you (in an non-patronising way! :P)
In reply to FreshSlate:
Not necessarily. On occasion I've been given advice before I've actually climbed anything, so no evidence apart from the fact I'm female. Parenting advice might be being given after an hour of watching the Dad with the child at a coffee morning. Although I doubt it. Some people just like doling out advice.....
> I see a difference here. At the wall, either someone manages a problem or they don't, you are in a pretty good position to tell if they are succeeding or failing. To make the assumption that a parent is failing based on no evidence other than he is a man is sexist.
Not necessarily. On occasion I've been given advice before I've actually climbed anything, so no evidence apart from the fact I'm female. Parenting advice might be being given after an hour of watching the Dad with the child at a coffee morning. Although I doubt it. Some people just like doling out advice.....
In reply to Blue Straggler:
Moff got approached once near the top of Idwall slabs asking if she needed help building a belay, she was too gobsmacked to be sarcasticly feminine and useless. Most recently another sexist lemming (a bouldering guidebook worker who who should have known better) asked her if she knew what to do with a bouldering toothbrush won in a quiz... yeah stick it up your ar*e was her rumoured reply... by the end of the evening the guy had worked out she was a BMC guidebook editor, on the BMC guidebook committee, had climbed V6 slab....in fact it happens so often if you know her from her pic in the Froggatt guide but she doesnt know you it's a good wind up opportunity...I'll even buy a pint for really imaginative successful ones.
Moff got approached once near the top of Idwall slabs asking if she needed help building a belay, she was too gobsmacked to be sarcasticly feminine and useless. Most recently another sexist lemming (a bouldering guidebook worker who who should have known better) asked her if she knew what to do with a bouldering toothbrush won in a quiz... yeah stick it up your ar*e was her rumoured reply... by the end of the evening the guy had worked out she was a BMC guidebook editor, on the BMC guidebook committee, had climbed V6 slab....in fact it happens so often if you know her from her pic in the Froggatt guide but she doesnt know you it's a good wind up opportunity...I'll even buy a pint for really imaginative successful ones.
In reply to Carolyn:
Although I doubt it. Some people just like doling out advice.....
Yup, that's true enough!
Although I doubt it. Some people just like doling out advice.....
Yup, that's true enough!
In reply to Carolyn:
If someone has not seen you climb then of course they are certainly jumping to some sort of conclusion without any decent prior knowledge. My scenario presumes that someone has at least attempted something before being given advice.
I assume it has been when you have been eyeing up a problem? I am assuming it was not whilst you were buying a coffee?
> Not necessarily. On occasion I've been given advice before I've actually climbed anything, so no evidence apart from the fact I'm female. Parenting advice might be being given after an hour of watching the Dad with the child at a coffee morning. Although I doubt it. Some people just like doling out advice.....
If someone has not seen you climb then of course they are certainly jumping to some sort of conclusion without any decent prior knowledge. My scenario presumes that someone has at least attempted something before being given advice.
I assume it has been when you have been eyeing up a problem? I am assuming it was not whilst you were buying a coffee?
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