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Following on from HGV overtaking I thought I would throw this out for comment.
Having just spent a couple of days driving around the country on motorways with my daughter who has just passed her driving test we had a conversation about people joining the motorway from the slip road.
My daughter now as a driver commented on how motorists seem to think its their right of way coming off the slip road onto the main carriageway expecting other road users to move lanes or slow down to let them in.
As she rightly pointed out the broken lines at the edge of the slip road are give way lines but they appeared to be meaningless.
Some of the actions of drivers were downright dangerous and terrifying for a new driver
Having just spent a couple of days driving around the country on motorways with my daughter who has just passed her driving test we had a conversation about people joining the motorway from the slip road.
My daughter now as a driver commented on how motorists seem to think its their right of way coming off the slip road onto the main carriageway expecting other road users to move lanes or slow down to let them in.
As she rightly pointed out the broken lines at the edge of the slip road are give way lines but they appeared to be meaningless.
Some of the actions of drivers were downright dangerous and terrifying for a new driver
In reply to didntcomelast:
what you need to do is speed up to the speed of the motorway traffic and you should find that drivers on the motorway will adjust there speed or change lanes to let you in .
what is dangerous is people who slow down on the slip road then have trouble slotting in to the speed of the moving traffic as a give way it would suggest you can stop then join the traffic , that is a very dangerous action to take as you would not get up to speed fast enough to join the flow of traffic .
what you need to do is speed up to the speed of the motorway traffic and you should find that drivers on the motorway will adjust there speed or change lanes to let you in .
what is dangerous is people who slow down on the slip road then have trouble slotting in to the speed of the moving traffic as a give way it would suggest you can stop then join the traffic , that is a very dangerous action to take as you would not get up to speed fast enough to join the flow of traffic .
In reply to koolkat:
Agree most people will adjust their speed slightly to let someone join the motorway and this is courteous, but the person joining should be joining a gap, not causing other cars to slow down.
A pet hate of mine is people who slow down too much to let drivers in, as usually the joining driver slows as well, resulting in both drivers virtually coming to a stop and presents a major hazard.
To OP, you should be proud of your daughter having picked up the correct habits, and well done for taking her out on the motorway yourself, one of the best things my parents ever did for me was to pay for a 2 hour lesson on motorway driving and not let me out on my own after I had passed until I had done it.
Agree most people will adjust their speed slightly to let someone join the motorway and this is courteous, but the person joining should be joining a gap, not causing other cars to slow down.
A pet hate of mine is people who slow down too much to let drivers in, as usually the joining driver slows as well, resulting in both drivers virtually coming to a stop and presents a major hazard.
To OP, you should be proud of your daughter having picked up the correct habits, and well done for taking her out on the motorway yourself, one of the best things my parents ever did for me was to pay for a 2 hour lesson on motorway driving and not let me out on my own after I had passed until I had done it.
In reply to didntcomelast:
It is true, that people joining must give way, but given the speeds involved, it is not as if someone joining can just stop and wait for a gap. It is therefore common sense that if you are in the slow lane and are able to move over to allow people to join, you do so.
It is true, that people joining must give way, but given the speeds involved, it is not as if someone joining can just stop and wait for a gap. It is therefore common sense that if you are in the slow lane and are able to move over to allow people to join, you do so.
In reply to koolkat:
Sorry maybe my initial post was unclear, we were actually on the motorway, our comments were in relation to other drivers joining the motorway from the slip road.
Your reply gives the impression that you feel it is the responsibility of the driver on the motorway to move to allow the other vehicle in.
I disagree, and believe this to be a dangerous practice.
It is interesting that actual motorway driving i not part of the drivers syllabus and it is clear that many drivers are unaware of how to enter a motorway safely.
Sorry maybe my initial post was unclear, we were actually on the motorway, our comments were in relation to other drivers joining the motorway from the slip road.
Your reply gives the impression that you feel it is the responsibility of the driver on the motorway to move to allow the other vehicle in.
I disagree, and believe this to be a dangerous practice.
It is interesting that actual motorway driving i not part of the drivers syllabus and it is clear that many drivers are unaware of how to enter a motorway safely.
In reply to koolkat:
One of the worst examples of motorway slip roads is on the M6 NB at J34. The slip road is short, uphill and on a sharp bend. As a consequence if people don't make space on the carriageway then cars have to stop on the sliproad. They then have other cars behind them coming round a blind corner towards them at 50-60mph. The highways agency thought very seriously about narrowing the motorway to two lanes at this point to allow the joining traffic a safer entry.
It's certainly more dangerous for a car to stop on a slip road than it is for a car on the main carriageway to make space and allow them in.
One of the worst examples of motorway slip roads is on the M6 NB at J34. The slip road is short, uphill and on a sharp bend. As a consequence if people don't make space on the carriageway then cars have to stop on the sliproad. They then have other cars behind them coming round a blind corner towards them at 50-60mph. The highways agency thought very seriously about narrowing the motorway to two lanes at this point to allow the joining traffic a safer entry.
It's certainly more dangerous for a car to stop on a slip road than it is for a car on the main carriageway to make space and allow them in.
In reply to iccy:
>It's certainly more dangerous for a car to stop on a slip road than it is for a car on the main carriageway to make space and allow them in.
Thats a very frightening comment to make. This give way lines at the end of a slip road are to tell drivers JOINING a motorway to give way to users of the main carriageway.
I am curios as to how you view give way lines on a single carriage A class road when you are joining the main road from a side road to turn left, do you assume the vehicles on the main carriageway will take evasive action when you pull out in from of them?
>It's certainly more dangerous for a car to stop on a slip road than it is for a car on the main carriageway to make space and allow them in.
Thats a very frightening comment to make. This give way lines at the end of a slip road are to tell drivers JOINING a motorway to give way to users of the main carriageway.
I am curios as to how you view give way lines on a single carriage A class road when you are joining the main road from a side road to turn left, do you assume the vehicles on the main carriageway will take evasive action when you pull out in from of them?
In reply to didntcomelast:
If the traffic doesn't work to accommodate cars merging from the slip road, the merging cars have to stop. They then have the near impossible task of getting back up to motorway speeds without a run-up, against a backdrop of dense traffic.
I think it is therefore in everyones interests to facilitate merging - moving over where possible, gradually extending the gap to the car in front if you anticipate 1)the slip road merging into your lane being busy, and 2) not being able to move right yourself.
This also requires the merging cars to space themselves sensibly and engage their full brain. It actually works well most of the time, because most drivers do this to some degree sub-conciously.
I am a great fan of using "pacing" traffic lights on busy slip roads - you often see this in the USA where lights pulse cars down the onramps at 1 car every 10 seconds.
If the traffic doesn't work to accommodate cars merging from the slip road, the merging cars have to stop. They then have the near impossible task of getting back up to motorway speeds without a run-up, against a backdrop of dense traffic.
I think it is therefore in everyones interests to facilitate merging - moving over where possible, gradually extending the gap to the car in front if you anticipate 1)the slip road merging into your lane being busy, and 2) not being able to move right yourself.
This also requires the merging cars to space themselves sensibly and engage their full brain. It actually works well most of the time, because most drivers do this to some degree sub-conciously.
I am a great fan of using "pacing" traffic lights on busy slip roads - you often see this in the USA where lights pulse cars down the onramps at 1 car every 10 seconds.
In reply to didntcomelast:
The lines are not Give Way lines.
You give priority to traffic already on the motorway, if thats what you mean.
As far as I am aware the lines marking the end of the slip road have always been single broken lines and not double ones.
The lines are not Give Way lines.
You give priority to traffic already on the motorway, if thats what you mean.
As far as I am aware the lines marking the end of the slip road have always been single broken lines and not double ones.
Post edited at 12:06
In reply to didntcomelast:
I think it depends on the circumstances. If you are driving along in the slow lane and don't give way, the person joining doesn't have that many options. They can jam on the brakes potentially causing an incident behind them or they can swerve into the hard shoulder which may not be clear. So what are you suggesting someone joining should do if no one will let them on?
> Your reply gives the impression that you feel it is the responsibility of the driver on the motorway to move to allow the other vehicle in.
> I disagree, and believe this to be a dangerous practice.
I think it depends on the circumstances. If you are driving along in the slow lane and don't give way, the person joining doesn't have that many options. They can jam on the brakes potentially causing an incident behind them or they can swerve into the hard shoulder which may not be clear. So what are you suggesting someone joining should do if no one will let them on?
In reply to didntcomelast:
Just be grateful that we have sliproads in the UK.
The Italians seem to think that 20mts is enough to do the job
Just be grateful that we have sliproads in the UK.
The Italians seem to think that 20mts is enough to do the job
In reply to ByEek: As they don't have right of way they'll just have to wait for a gap. And the people on the motorway are being inconsiderate twunts by not moving into the middle lane at junctions or by not leaving a suitable gap.
In reply to didntcomelast:
You sound like one of those pr1cks that deliberately close the gap between yourself and the vehicle in front to stop vehicles filtering in front of you. Congratulations on making driving more dangerous for everyone. I'm sure you feel very smug and self satisfied.
You sound like one of those pr1cks that deliberately close the gap between yourself and the vehicle in front to stop vehicles filtering in front of you. Congratulations on making driving more dangerous for everyone. I'm sure you feel very smug and self satisfied.
In reply to ByEek:
Just been directed to this extract from the Highway code:
Highway Code rule 259
Joining the motorway. When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You should
* give priority to traffic already on the motorway
* check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
* not cross solid white lines that separate lanes or use the hard shoulder
* stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway
* remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking
Just been directed to this extract from the Highway code:
Highway Code rule 259
Joining the motorway. When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You should
* give priority to traffic already on the motorway
* check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
* not cross solid white lines that separate lanes or use the hard shoulder
* stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway
* remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking
In reply to Sally Bustyerface:
Actually I am one of those drivers who insist on leaving sufficient space between my vehicle and the vehicle in front to make it safe to carry out any evasive actions as may be required during my journey. This includes where safe to do so, allow people to join the carriageway from the slip road.
Conversely, are you one of those drivers who pull out onto the main carriageway with an expectation that others will move, or worse, brake suddenly causing numerous incidents of rear end shunts and subsequent whiplash claims which in turn put insurance costs up for everyone.
Actually I am one of those drivers who insist on leaving sufficient space between my vehicle and the vehicle in front to make it safe to carry out any evasive actions as may be required during my journey. This includes where safe to do so, allow people to join the carriageway from the slip road.
Conversely, are you one of those drivers who pull out onto the main carriageway with an expectation that others will move, or worse, brake suddenly causing numerous incidents of rear end shunts and subsequent whiplash claims which in turn put insurance costs up for everyone.
In reply to didntcomelast:
yes, people coming onto the motorway do not have priority, but it is common courtesy to make space or move over to let them out if it safe to do so.
I don't think you should be surprised if a car coming down the slip road expects to come onto the motorway and I don't know what they could be doing that would be "terrifying", unless they were going too slowly down the sliproad and pulling out in front of you causing you to brake suddenly.
yes, people coming onto the motorway do not have priority, but it is common courtesy to make space or move over to let them out if it safe to do so.
I don't think you should be surprised if a car coming down the slip road expects to come onto the motorway and I don't know what they could be doing that would be "terrifying", unless they were going too slowly down the sliproad and pulling out in front of you causing you to brake suddenly.
In reply to didntcomelast:
There is quite clearly a huge difference between the two situations. Stopping on a slip road creates problems when it comes to getting up to speed to merge in to the motorway traffic; this is nothing like a standard give way junction on to an A-road which you mention.
As someone else has pointed out, the broken lines on a slip road are not double lines anyway, so are not give-way lines.
> Thats a very frightening comment to make. This give way lines at the end of a slip road are to tell drivers JOINING a motorway to give way to users of the main carriageway.
> I am curios as to how you view give way lines on a single carriage A class road when you are joining the main road from a side road to turn left, do you assume the vehicles on the main carriageway will take evasive action when you pull out in from of them?
There is quite clearly a huge difference between the two situations. Stopping on a slip road creates problems when it comes to getting up to speed to merge in to the motorway traffic; this is nothing like a standard give way junction on to an A-road which you mention.
As someone else has pointed out, the broken lines on a slip road are not double lines anyway, so are not give-way lines.
In reply to didntcomelast:
Yes, you have right of way, but no point in asserting that when an idiot joining the motorway crashes into your nearside because they don't know how to filter in safely and you're set on a collision course.
Far better to anticipate that there'll be an imbecile or two. It's something you soon learn the importance of if you're riding a motorbike.
The junction doesn't suddenly materialise out of nowhere, and I guess that's where the anticipation stage begins, long before you actually sight someone joining. Courtesy where possible, but that also means courtesy to the others already on the motorway. You should be planning an escape before it happens.
Practice giving a running commentary as you're driving - might help develop that skill.
Don't get me started on gimps who put their indicators on as they cross junctions. AAARGH!
Yes, you have right of way, but no point in asserting that when an idiot joining the motorway crashes into your nearside because they don't know how to filter in safely and you're set on a collision course.
Far better to anticipate that there'll be an imbecile or two. It's something you soon learn the importance of if you're riding a motorbike.
The junction doesn't suddenly materialise out of nowhere, and I guess that's where the anticipation stage begins, long before you actually sight someone joining. Courtesy where possible, but that also means courtesy to the others already on the motorway. You should be planning an escape before it happens.
Practice giving a running commentary as you're driving - might help develop that skill.
Don't get me started on gimps who put their indicators on as they cross junctions. AAARGH!
In reply to ceri:
The best example was on the A1(m) northbound a two lane carriageway we watched a car travel down the slip road and attempt to pull into the main flow of traffic which was very heavy, there was a car on the main carriageway in the inside lane with another car along side it on the right 'overtaking lane', notice I deliberately do not use the term 'fast lane' as there is no such thing.
Traffic was such that there was no room for either car on the main carriageway to move over, we had eased off to leave a gap sufficient for the car joining the carriage to slip in safely, but due to their actions, either not looking or expecting to be allowed in, the car in the inside lane had to stamp on the brakes to avoid a collision. As it is the car joining the main carriageway had to also take avoiding action so no one benefited.
The best example was on the A1(m) northbound a two lane carriageway we watched a car travel down the slip road and attempt to pull into the main flow of traffic which was very heavy, there was a car on the main carriageway in the inside lane with another car along side it on the right 'overtaking lane', notice I deliberately do not use the term 'fast lane' as there is no such thing.
Traffic was such that there was no room for either car on the main carriageway to move over, we had eased off to leave a gap sufficient for the car joining the carriage to slip in safely, but due to their actions, either not looking or expecting to be allowed in, the car in the inside lane had to stamp on the brakes to avoid a collision. As it is the car joining the main carriageway had to also take avoiding action so no one benefited.
In reply to didntcomelast:
The problem is that to achieve the first point you need to commit to accelerating and so risk needing to infringe the second. In practice, you nearly always manage to match speeds and then out-accelerate what ever's in the inside lane but theere's always a chance that the traffic is too dense (although at least this usually means it's travelling slowly) or some obstructive prat will refuse to let you out.
If you keep your nerve the worst that can happen is that you end up on the hard shoulder but I would say that's safer than slamming on the brakes and surprising someone following you down the slip road. However, this all takes confidence and is hard on an inexperienced driver. Perhaps you could consider that when you are next passing an on-ramp and could move out to allow people to join.
> (In reply to ByEek)
>
> Just been directed to this extract from the Highway code:
>
> * check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
> * not cross solid white lines that separate lanes or use the hard shoulder
>
> Just been directed to this extract from the Highway code:
>
> * check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
> * not cross solid white lines that separate lanes or use the hard shoulder
The problem is that to achieve the first point you need to commit to accelerating and so risk needing to infringe the second. In practice, you nearly always manage to match speeds and then out-accelerate what ever's in the inside lane but theere's always a chance that the traffic is too dense (although at least this usually means it's travelling slowly) or some obstructive prat will refuse to let you out.
If you keep your nerve the worst that can happen is that you end up on the hard shoulder but I would say that's safer than slamming on the brakes and surprising someone following you down the slip road. However, this all takes confidence and is hard on an inexperienced driver. Perhaps you could consider that when you are next passing an on-ramp and could move out to allow people to join.
In reply to didntcomelast:
Well done. You have worked out how to use the copy / paste functionality of your computer.
And in the real world...?
Well done. You have worked out how to use the copy / paste functionality of your computer.
And in the real world...?
In reply to Byronius Maximus:
For completeness, there are instances where a single dotted line is a give way line, but a motorway slip road is not one of them.
didntcomelast,
I raise your Highway Code reference with the Traffic Signal Regulations and General Directions. See 1003 series diagrams.
iccy (ex-highways designer)
For completeness, there are instances where a single dotted line is a give way line, but a motorway slip road is not one of them.
didntcomelast,
I raise your Highway Code reference with the Traffic Signal Regulations and General Directions. See 1003 series diagrams.
iccy (ex-highways designer)
In reply to iccy:
There are many poorly designed sliproads like this, and these should be sorted out. For a while I lived very near the A3 in Hampshire, and it was a twice weekly occurance that we were out helping people out of their cars and offering blankets and tea due to the ridiculously small sliproads (less than 30M long, with a sharp (max 20mph) bend at the end. Fortunately most of the accidents were minor, and were drivers coming off the road rather than joining it.
The problem is, that a driver on the nearside lane often doesn't have the room to move out
> (In reply to koolkat)
>
> One of the worst examples of motorway slip roads is on the M6 NB at J34. The slip road is short, uphill and on a sharp bend. As a consequence if people don't make space on the carriageway then cars have to stop on the sliproad. They then have other cars behind them coming round a blind corner towards them at 50-60mph. The highways agency thought very seriously about narrowing the motorway to two lanes at this point to allow the joining traffic a safer entry.
>
>
> One of the worst examples of motorway slip roads is on the M6 NB at J34. The slip road is short, uphill and on a sharp bend. As a consequence if people don't make space on the carriageway then cars have to stop on the sliproad. They then have other cars behind them coming round a blind corner towards them at 50-60mph. The highways agency thought very seriously about narrowing the motorway to two lanes at this point to allow the joining traffic a safer entry.
>
There are many poorly designed sliproads like this, and these should be sorted out. For a while I lived very near the A3 in Hampshire, and it was a twice weekly occurance that we were out helping people out of their cars and offering blankets and tea due to the ridiculously small sliproads (less than 30M long, with a sharp (max 20mph) bend at the end. Fortunately most of the accidents were minor, and were drivers coming off the road rather than joining it.
> It's certainly more dangerous for a car to stop on a slip road than it is for a car on the main carriageway to make space and allow them in.
The problem is, that a driver on the nearside lane often doesn't have the room to move out
In reply to iccy:
Now thats a fascinating read... Perhaps my earlier comment about 'give way' to traffic on the main carriageway was not the best use of language, however,and this will be a good one for the language pedants to chew over, is there that much difference between 'give way' and 'give priority' to in terms of driving on a road.
Now thats a fascinating read... Perhaps my earlier comment about 'give way' to traffic on the main carriageway was not the best use of language, however,and this will be a good one for the language pedants to chew over, is there that much difference between 'give way' and 'give priority' to in terms of driving on a road.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Yeah. The M6 one is a location I know well as we tried to work out how to fix it. In this instance there's no hard shoulder as the M6 crosses a river so there are only two solutions. Either replace the bridge crossing the river with a wider one or take the motorway down to two lanes. The first option is unaffordable and the second is a traffic nightmare.
Unfortunately with most of these sites that I've been involved in the cost of the required remedial works hugely outweighs the safety benefit that could be achieved. For every infrastructure investment there is always a compromise on what projects are undertaken - currently capacity enhancements are the ones getting funded as they contribute most to the economy. Significant upgrade to remove the risk of minor accidents are very hard to justify in terms of a business case.
Very true. Often the easiest way to let a person onto a motorway is to slow down a little in advance of the junction to create space for entering traffic. My observation is that the closer the traffic speed is to 70+, the less willing people seem to be to make space by slowing down.
Yeah. The M6 one is a location I know well as we tried to work out how to fix it. In this instance there's no hard shoulder as the M6 crosses a river so there are only two solutions. Either replace the bridge crossing the river with a wider one or take the motorway down to two lanes. The first option is unaffordable and the second is a traffic nightmare.
Unfortunately with most of these sites that I've been involved in the cost of the required remedial works hugely outweighs the safety benefit that could be achieved. For every infrastructure investment there is always a compromise on what projects are undertaken - currently capacity enhancements are the ones getting funded as they contribute most to the economy. Significant upgrade to remove the risk of minor accidents are very hard to justify in terms of a business case.
> The problem is, that a driver on the nearside lane often doesn't have the room to move out
Very true. Often the easiest way to let a person onto a motorway is to slow down a little in advance of the junction to create space for entering traffic. My observation is that the closer the traffic speed is to 70+, the less willing people seem to be to make space by slowing down.
In reply to iccy:
Though the slip road will be within the boundary of the Motorway, demarked by the blue and white signs at the entrance to the slip. So whilst having to 'give way', no stopping is allowed unless in an emergency.
Likewise, anyone who has stopped due to an emergency should use the hard shoulder to build up the appropriate speed prior to joining the main carriageway.
Though the slip road will be within the boundary of the Motorway, demarked by the blue and white signs at the entrance to the slip. So whilst having to 'give way', no stopping is allowed unless in an emergency.
Likewise, anyone who has stopped due to an emergency should use the hard shoulder to build up the appropriate speed prior to joining the main carriageway.
In reply to iccy:
Totally agree, our roads are getting busier and it requires all users to learn to share the road space. Fortunately it's only a minority that require educating.
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
> [...]
>
> Very true. Often the easiest way to let a person onto a motorway is to slow down a little in advance of the junction to create space for entering traffic. My observation is that the closer the traffic speed is to 70+, the less willing people seem to be to make space by slowing down.
> [...]
>
> Very true. Often the easiest way to let a person onto a motorway is to slow down a little in advance of the junction to create space for entering traffic. My observation is that the closer the traffic speed is to 70+, the less willing people seem to be to make space by slowing down.
Totally agree, our roads are getting busier and it requires all users to learn to share the road space. Fortunately it's only a minority that require educating.
In reply to didntcomelast:
You can only control the driving of one person, yourself.
The only thing you can do is be observant, be uptodate on your mirrors, anticipate what others are going to do and give them space to get on with it.
You can only control the driving of one person, yourself.
The only thing you can do is be observant, be uptodate on your mirrors, anticipate what others are going to do and give them space to get on with it.
In reply to didntcomelast:
> Having just spent a couple of days driving around the country on motorways with my daughter who has just passed her driving test we had a conversation about people joining the motorway from the slip road.
> My daughter now as a driver commented on how motorists seem to think its their right of way coming off the slip road onto the main carriageway expecting other road users to move lanes or slow down to let them in.
> As she rightly pointed out the broken lines at the edge of the slip road are give way lines but they appeared to be meaningless.
> Some of the actions of drivers were downright dangerous and terrifying for a new driver
>
It should be the duty of drivers on the motorway to make way for drivers entering.
Drivers on the motorway have prior knowledge of the speed and positions of cars on the motorway, which slip road drivers may not have. At the same time drivers already on the motorway know that a driver may be coming off the slip road.
I've been forced to come to a dead halt at the entry to a motorway before by a line on cars in the slow lane, with all the other lanes completely clear. Really dangerous, because they were too lazy/selfish to do anything about it.
If I can, I always move a lane across at the approach. And that includes if I'm in the middle lane, to allow people in the slow lane to also move.
I can't believe how many people on this thread seem to find it acceptable to force a car on the slip road to stop. It's not.
> Following on from HGV overtaking I thought I would throw this out for comment.
> Having just spent a couple of days driving around the country on motorways with my daughter who has just passed her driving test we had a conversation about people joining the motorway from the slip road.
> My daughter now as a driver commented on how motorists seem to think its their right of way coming off the slip road onto the main carriageway expecting other road users to move lanes or slow down to let them in.
> As she rightly pointed out the broken lines at the edge of the slip road are give way lines but they appeared to be meaningless.
> Some of the actions of drivers were downright dangerous and terrifying for a new driver
>
It should be the duty of drivers on the motorway to make way for drivers entering.
Drivers on the motorway have prior knowledge of the speed and positions of cars on the motorway, which slip road drivers may not have. At the same time drivers already on the motorway know that a driver may be coming off the slip road.
I've been forced to come to a dead halt at the entry to a motorway before by a line on cars in the slow lane, with all the other lanes completely clear. Really dangerous, because they were too lazy/selfish to do anything about it.
If I can, I always move a lane across at the approach. And that includes if I'm in the middle lane, to allow people in the slow lane to also move.
I can't believe how many people on this thread seem to find it acceptable to force a car on the slip road to stop. It's not.
Post edited at 13:52
In reply to didntcomelast:
The alternatives being what? Certainly not very appealing!
Stop at the 'give-way' waiting for a gap big enough to accelerate into, while waiting you get creamed by the car behind that has matched the motorway speed but is distracted looking for a gap in unhelpful tailgating traffic?
Or fail to merge, continue on down the hard shoulder running over whatever crap there is lying there or creaming the broken down car you didn't see because you were busy looking for a gap in unhelpful tailgating traffic?
It's important that traffic can merge smoothly onto the motorway. A little planning ahead and adjusting your speed/position while it's safe to do so goes a long way to making that happen.
There are a lot of idiots out there and plenty of others that for one reason or another make mistakes. Better to be looking ahead and planning to stay clear of a potential conflict than complaining about one that was someone else's fault.
jk
> Having just spent a couple of days driving around the country on motorways with my daughter who has just passed her driving test we had a conversation about people joining the motorway from the slip road.
The alternatives being what? Certainly not very appealing!
Stop at the 'give-way' waiting for a gap big enough to accelerate into, while waiting you get creamed by the car behind that has matched the motorway speed but is distracted looking for a gap in unhelpful tailgating traffic?
Or fail to merge, continue on down the hard shoulder running over whatever crap there is lying there or creaming the broken down car you didn't see because you were busy looking for a gap in unhelpful tailgating traffic?
It's important that traffic can merge smoothly onto the motorway. A little planning ahead and adjusting your speed/position while it's safe to do so goes a long way to making that happen.
There are a lot of idiots out there and plenty of others that for one reason or another make mistakes. Better to be looking ahead and planning to stay clear of a potential conflict than complaining about one that was someone else's fault.
jk
Post edited at 14:18
In reply to balmybaldwin:
>>
judging by some of the replies you are expected to move into the middle lane regardless !
>>
> The problem is, that a driver on the nearside lane often doesn't have the room to move out
judging by some of the replies you are expected to move into the middle lane regardless !
In reply to didntcomelast:
This makes me angry, your mistaking your inconsiderate driving and forcing others to take the appropriate defensive driving steps, and thinking that they're being inconsiderate; and worse passing this attitude onto your daughter!
Next time you block someone entering a motorway, I hope there's a cop behind and they do you for driving without reasonable consideration.....
This makes me angry, your mistaking your inconsiderate driving and forcing others to take the appropriate defensive driving steps, and thinking that they're being inconsiderate; and worse passing this attitude onto your daughter!
Next time you block someone entering a motorway, I hope there's a cop behind and they do you for driving without reasonable consideration.....
In reply to didntcomelast:
If those slip road lines were "Give Way" you would expect to be indicating left to enter the motorway as you would be at a junction. However, you are indicating right, because you are not at a junction - you are on a slip road which is part OF the motorway system, and you are moving across a lane into the motorway's true inside lane, but you must "Give Priority".
> is there that much difference between 'give way' and 'give priority' to in terms of driving on a road.
If those slip road lines were "Give Way" you would expect to be indicating left to enter the motorway as you would be at a junction. However, you are indicating right, because you are not at a junction - you are on a slip road which is part OF the motorway system, and you are moving across a lane into the motorway's true inside lane, but you must "Give Priority".
In reply to didntcomelast:
there seems an awful lot of people here that seem you can define the precise action for all instances! Iccy (obviously benefited by experience but also common sense) recognises that we can't improve all the roads as quickly as required to match numbers on them due to economical reasons as well as others. Therefore courtesy and adaption to the situation are required.
We can't even manage to get people round the lanes in Tesco without people getting frustrated, we're never going to get them hurtling around at 70 mph and happy all the time
there seems an awful lot of people here that seem you can define the precise action for all instances! Iccy (obviously benefited by experience but also common sense) recognises that we can't improve all the roads as quickly as required to match numbers on them due to economical reasons as well as others. Therefore courtesy and adaption to the situation are required.
We can't even manage to get people round the lanes in Tesco without people getting frustrated, we're never going to get them hurtling around at 70 mph and happy all the time
In reply to didntcomelast:
Had a similar post a while back about this and I was shouted down. She's right though, there is a view on the uk roads that others should vacate the inside lane for the people joining but the markers/lines/rules say different.
I only really noticed the difference after 7 months driving abroad. There they are more inclined to drive slower on the slip lane knowing that they may have to stop. It was a bit weird seeing them all lining up stationary ready to join.
Had a similar post a while back about this and I was shouted down. She's right though, there is a view on the uk roads that others should vacate the inside lane for the people joining but the markers/lines/rules say different.
I only really noticed the difference after 7 months driving abroad. There they are more inclined to drive slower on the slip lane knowing that they may have to stop. It was a bit weird seeing them all lining up stationary ready to join.
In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
No, they should make room as its the sensible thing to do.
All the lines say is that legally they don't have to.
> Had a similar post a while back about this and I was shouted down. She's right though, there is a view on the uk roads that others should vacate the inside lane for the people joining but the markers/lines/rules say different.
No, they should make room as its the sensible thing to do.
All the lines say is that legally they don't have to.
In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
But pulling over into the middle lane is a sensible, pragmatic solution to the problem. It's not as if you should be surprised that a slip road is coming up, as they're signposted in advance, and usually preceded by an off-ramp.
Either that or expect a bit of give-and-take with adjusting speed and making room for people to pull out. Co-operation is a good thing...
Granted, there's always some self-obsessed git who will simply plough onto a motorway with barely any regard for other traffic on the road, but there are also types who are too timid for their own good, and end up stationary at the end of the slip-road...
> She's right though, there is a view on the uk roads that others should vacate the inside lane for the people joining but the markers/lines/rules say different.
But pulling over into the middle lane is a sensible, pragmatic solution to the problem. It's not as if you should be surprised that a slip road is coming up, as they're signposted in advance, and usually preceded by an off-ramp.
Either that or expect a bit of give-and-take with adjusting speed and making room for people to pull out. Co-operation is a good thing...
Granted, there's always some self-obsessed git who will simply plough onto a motorway with barely any regard for other traffic on the road, but there are also types who are too timid for their own good, and end up stationary at the end of the slip-road...
In reply to Run_Ross_Run: Were they all lined up waiting to join because the inconsiderate twunts on the road wouldn't move over or leave spaces?
In reply to didntcomelast:
I'm a relatively new driver, but driving motorways is completely different to driving in a city centre, and it's worrying when you see people reacting to cars directly in front of them on motorways. Driving motorways is like a game of chess, you need to anticipate other road users ahead of you, and that can include merging traffic. If you can't anticipate that someone coming down a slip road is going to join the lane and needs room, then I don't think you should be driving on motorways. It's simple, sensible logic. I've seen first hand the dangers of people defiantly refusing access to the motorway via a slip road, it isn't pretty.
I'm a relatively new driver, but driving motorways is completely different to driving in a city centre, and it's worrying when you see people reacting to cars directly in front of them on motorways. Driving motorways is like a game of chess, you need to anticipate other road users ahead of you, and that can include merging traffic. If you can't anticipate that someone coming down a slip road is going to join the lane and needs room, then I don't think you should be driving on motorways. It's simple, sensible logic. I've seen first hand the dangers of people defiantly refusing access to the motorway via a slip road, it isn't pretty.
In reply to fraserbarrett:
you need to actually read what this guy wrote before you lambast him as being scum. he quite clearly writes (before i got completely bored of the thread), he always ensures he leaves enough space for traffic joining the motorway, and if possible and safe to do so will move across a lane. (See didntcomelast - on 12:13 Wed)
I understand his point. too many drivers join motorways too fast, with no respect for drivers already on the motorway (therefore being incredibly dangerous) or people who force themselves in to non-existent gaps despite having more than half of the slip road available.
This is the OPs point. Personally I hope he passes on his driving habits to his daughter
If you are this quick to judge (and anger), i wonder how your driving is...
you need to actually read what this guy wrote before you lambast him as being scum. he quite clearly writes (before i got completely bored of the thread), he always ensures he leaves enough space for traffic joining the motorway, and if possible and safe to do so will move across a lane. (See didntcomelast - on 12:13 Wed)
I understand his point. too many drivers join motorways too fast, with no respect for drivers already on the motorway (therefore being incredibly dangerous) or people who force themselves in to non-existent gaps despite having more than half of the slip road available.
This is the OPs point. Personally I hope he passes on his driving habits to his daughter
If you are this quick to judge (and anger), i wonder how your driving is...
Post edited at 18:53
In reply to fraserbarrett:
I think if you read all of my posts you will see that I do actually leave or try to make space for other drivers. I suspectI also suspect ththough that you have jumped to the conclusion that I am a bad driver because I don't drive as you do.
As for the police prosecuting me, I suspect the driver entering the main carriageway would be at more risk unless there were extenuating circumstances.
i also suspect you would not consider trying to force a cop car to move over if you were trying to enter the main carriageway. Or would you?
I think if you read all of my posts you will see that I do actually leave or try to make space for other drivers. I suspectI also suspect ththough that you have jumped to the conclusion that I am a bad driver because I don't drive as you do.
As for the police prosecuting me, I suspect the driver entering the main carriageway would be at more risk unless there were extenuating circumstances.
i also suspect you would not consider trying to force a cop car to move over if you were trying to enter the main carriageway. Or would you?
In reply to Loki:
Many thanks for that. I don't agree that those entering from a sliproad have right of way but I have driven enough to know that defensive driving is safest practice.
Many thanks for that. I don't agree that those entering from a sliproad have right of way but I have driven enough to know that defensive driving is safest practice.
In reply to didntcomelast:
Joining a motorway is rarely a problem . The motorway will be full of middle lane hoggers and outside laneers sitting in your boot. The inside lane will be nice and free to enter.
Joining a motorway is rarely a problem . The motorway will be full of middle lane hoggers and outside laneers sitting in your boot. The inside lane will be nice and free to enter.
In reply to Trevers:
Where is it written there is a slow lane an by definition on a two or three lane motorway, a fast lane. The speed limit is the same on all lanes unless indicated by signs.
I was taught that the outer lanes were for overtaking only.
It's funny how motorists view roads and how they should be used.
Where is it written there is a slow lane an by definition on a two or three lane motorway, a fast lane. The speed limit is the same on all lanes unless indicated by signs.
I was taught that the outer lanes were for overtaking only.
It's funny how motorists view roads and how they should be used.
In reply to didntcomelast:
Nice argument. I particularly like how you refuted my points. I used 'slow lane' because everyone knows what that means, as opposed to 'inside/outside' which causes confusion.
> Where is it written there is a slow lane an by definition on a two or three lane motorway, a fast lane. The speed limit is the same on all lanes unless indicated by signs.
> I was taught that the outer lanes were for overtaking only.
> It's funny how motorists view roads and how they should be used.
Nice argument. I particularly like how you refuted my points. I used 'slow lane' because everyone knows what that means, as opposed to 'inside/outside' which causes confusion.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
There usually is room if you plan ahead- i.e you see that there is an exit coming up, reach the logical conclusion that this is likely to be followed by an entry slip, and begin looking around you long in advance to see if there is a gap to move into or if you can adjust your speed to find/create one
> The problem is, that a driver on the nearside lane often doesn't have the room to move out
There usually is room if you plan ahead- i.e you see that there is an exit coming up, reach the logical conclusion that this is likely to be followed by an entry slip, and begin looking around you long in advance to see if there is a gap to move into or if you can adjust your speed to find/create one
In reply to Trevers:
I didn't refute your points because we will have to agree to disagree. Whilst I always try to make space for people entering the main carriageway my argument is that it is not a right for vehicles coming down a sliproad to expect others to move out of their way as you argue they should. You don't drive a bmw or Audi by any chance.
I didn't refute your points because we will have to agree to disagree. Whilst I always try to make space for people entering the main carriageway my argument is that it is not a right for vehicles coming down a sliproad to expect others to move out of their way as you argue they should. You don't drive a bmw or Audi by any chance.
In reply to Trevers:
I didn't refute your points because we will have to agree to disagree. Whilst I always try to make space for people entering the main carriageway my argument is that it is not a right for vehicles coming down a sliproad to expect others to move out of their way as you argue they should. You don't drive a bmw or Audi by any chance do you?
I didn't refute your points because we will have to agree to disagree. Whilst I always try to make space for people entering the main carriageway my argument is that it is not a right for vehicles coming down a sliproad to expect others to move out of their way as you argue they should. You don't drive a bmw or Audi by any chance do you?
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Could've saved time by just saying 'BMW' drivers.
> Were they all lined up waiting to join because the inconsiderate twunts on the road wouldn't move over or leave spaces?
Could've saved time by just saying 'BMW' drivers.
In reply to didntcomelast:
1.2l Skoda. Accelerates like an oil tanker
And I never said 'expect'. Clearly if I always barged straight on I wouldn't have lasted very long, and it would set a dangerous precedent to say always do this or that. But as I said before, those joining the slip road have less prior knowledge and fewer options.
It doesn't help that the junction I join the most is an uphill bend where you can't see the traffic until you're directly alongside and driving into a wedge of slip.
> I didn't refute your points because we will have to agree to disagree. Whilst I always try to make space for people entering the main carriageway my argument is that it is not a right for vehicles coming down a sliproad to expect others to move out of their way as you argue they should. You don't drive a bmw or Audi by any chance.
1.2l Skoda. Accelerates like an oil tanker
And I never said 'expect'. Clearly if I always barged straight on I wouldn't have lasted very long, and it would set a dangerous precedent to say always do this or that. But as I said before, those joining the slip road have less prior knowledge and fewer options.
It doesn't help that the junction I join the most is an uphill bend where you can't see the traffic until you're directly alongside and driving into a wedge of slip.
In reply to didntcomelast:
Interesting thread.
Different times of day, areas of the uk, road familiarity all add to the mix of what I as the driver joining the motorway are going to be faced with. Or proceeding on the motor will see coming in from the left hand slip road.
I don't know what is going on in the head of any driver in the vicinity. One could be texting, changing a CD, on drugs, not insured, speeding to a hospital.
To challenge the other road user by my actions will eventually end costing ME.
Be aware, think ahead, and be considerate.
I drive an Audi
Interesting thread.
Different times of day, areas of the uk, road familiarity all add to the mix of what I as the driver joining the motorway are going to be faced with. Or proceeding on the motor will see coming in from the left hand slip road.
I don't know what is going on in the head of any driver in the vicinity. One could be texting, changing a CD, on drugs, not insured, speeding to a hospital.
To challenge the other road user by my actions will eventually end costing ME.
Be aware, think ahead, and be considerate.
I drive an Audi
Post edited at 21:35
In reply to didntcomelast:
Whatever the highway code says, it has become the convention in the UK that those already on the motorway do allow cars on the slip to enter. Its a bit like you're only supposed to flash your lights as a warning but in practice we do it lo let people out etc.
Both these conventions make life a lot easier for everyone. The alternative is not doing them which is what happens on the continent where drivers are typically much less considerate than we are and as a result create a lot more hassle for each other. They also have more dangerous roads as a result.
http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm
> .....expecting other road users to move lanes or slow down to let them in. >
Whatever the highway code says, it has become the convention in the UK that those already on the motorway do allow cars on the slip to enter. Its a bit like you're only supposed to flash your lights as a warning but in practice we do it lo let people out etc.
Both these conventions make life a lot easier for everyone. The alternative is not doing them which is what happens on the continent where drivers are typically much less considerate than we are and as a result create a lot more hassle for each other. They also have more dangerous roads as a result.
http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm
In reply to mikehike:
> Different times of day, areas of the uk, road familiarity all add to the mix of what I as the driver joining the motorway are going to be faced with. Or proceeding on the motor will see coming in from the left hand slip road.
> I don't know what is going on in the head of any driver in the vicinity. One could be texting, changing a CD, on drugs, not insured, speeding to a hospital.
> To challenge the other road user by my actions will eventually end costing ME.
> Be aware, think ahead, and be considerate.
> I drive an Audi
Just about the best post on the thread.
It's not so much about being in the right, as being as safe as one can be.
> Interesting thread.
> Different times of day, areas of the uk, road familiarity all add to the mix of what I as the driver joining the motorway are going to be faced with. Or proceeding on the motor will see coming in from the left hand slip road.
> I don't know what is going on in the head of any driver in the vicinity. One could be texting, changing a CD, on drugs, not insured, speeding to a hospital.
> To challenge the other road user by my actions will eventually end costing ME.
> Be aware, think ahead, and be considerate.
> I drive an Audi
Just about the best post on the thread.
It's not so much about being in the right, as being as safe as one can be.
Post edited at 23:36
In reply to didntcomelast:
Still probably safer than being a cyclist one one - like the idiot I saw cycling along the hard shoulder of the M4 this morning, about to come off at J13.
Still probably safer than being a cyclist one one - like the idiot I saw cycling along the hard shoulder of the M4 this morning, about to come off at J13.
In reply to iccy:
I can't quite remember, is J34 Lancaster North? If so, I agree, a shitty bit of junction that will hopefully get a bit of a rethink in the imminent round of building works (to implement the Heysham link road).
I can't quite remember, is J34 Lancaster North? If so, I agree, a shitty bit of junction that will hopefully get a bit of a rethink in the imminent round of building works (to implement the Heysham link road).
In reply to pec:
The problem arises where those joining make an assumption that your "convention" is a given, without weighing the variables that the person on the motorway has to contend with.
The problem arises where those joining make an assumption that your "convention" is a given, without weighing the variables that the person on the motorway has to contend with.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
What could other traffic be doing which means a driver can't start to gradually slow down a little when a slip road is approaching?
What could other traffic be doing which means a driver can't start to gradually slow down a little when a slip road is approaching?
In reply to didntcomelast:
When on the motorway I will try and anticipate the slip road coming up and engineer a gap ahead of me to allow merging from the left. If there is space on the right, I will drift over right as I approach the slip road , to leave room for a possible stream of cars to join.
My issue is the opposite to the main discussion, that is people leaving the motorway , who infuriatingly brake ahead of me whilst ON the motorway , and before taking an empty slip road off.
It is a slip road for a reason, and that is so that you slip off and THEN slow down in the slip road so that you don't slow down the traffic on the motorway.
When on the motorway I will try and anticipate the slip road coming up and engineer a gap ahead of me to allow merging from the left. If there is space on the right, I will drift over right as I approach the slip road , to leave room for a possible stream of cars to join.
My issue is the opposite to the main discussion, that is people leaving the motorway , who infuriatingly brake ahead of me whilst ON the motorway , and before taking an empty slip road off.
It is a slip road for a reason, and that is so that you slip off and THEN slow down in the slip road so that you don't slow down the traffic on the motorway.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
You can never make an absolute asumption as to how other drivers will behave but the more people follow the conventions the better and the safer our roads will be. There's no point in new drivers (such as the OP refers to) complaining about what people do, you've just got to get used to it. Once you have got used to it you'll no longer be an inexperienced driver and if you follow the conventions you'll be a safer driver too.
Its conventions like these that make our roads the safest in Europe despite being the busiest.
> The problem arises where those joining make an assumption that your "convention" is a given, without weighing the variables that the person on the motorway has to contend with. >
You can never make an absolute asumption as to how other drivers will behave but the more people follow the conventions the better and the safer our roads will be. There's no point in new drivers (such as the OP refers to) complaining about what people do, you've just got to get used to it. Once you have got used to it you'll no longer be an inexperienced driver and if you follow the conventions you'll be a safer driver too.
Its conventions like these that make our roads the safest in Europe despite being the busiest.
In reply to didntcomelast:
I solve the problem by staying in the third lane where I am as far away from the a action as possible.
Only once or maybe twice in 22 years driving have I ever been forced to move from the slip road to the hard shoulder before safely moving into the inside lane of a Motorway.
What really frightens me are people who do not safely know how to re enter the motorway after being stationary on the hard shoulder. A couple of weeks ago I had to take evasive action when I saw a car on the hard shoulder indicate and then pull out to the inside lane from a standing start. No attempt was made to build up speed on the hard shoulder before joining the motorway.
Scary.
I solve the problem by staying in the third lane where I am as far away from the a action as possible.
Only once or maybe twice in 22 years driving have I ever been forced to move from the slip road to the hard shoulder before safely moving into the inside lane of a Motorway.
What really frightens me are people who do not safely know how to re enter the motorway after being stationary on the hard shoulder. A couple of weeks ago I had to take evasive action when I saw a car on the hard shoulder indicate and then pull out to the inside lane from a standing start. No attempt was made to build up speed on the hard shoulder before joining the motorway.
Scary.
> Following on from HGV overtaking I thought I would throw this out for comment.
> Having just spent a couple of days driving around the country on motorways with my daughter who has just passed her driving test we had a conversation about people joining the motorway from the slip road.
> My daughter now as a driver commented on how motorists seem to think its their right of way coming off the slip road onto the main carriageway expecting other road users to move lanes or slow down to let them in.
> As she rightly pointed out the broken lines at the edge of the slip road are give way lines but they appeared to be meaningless.
> Some of the actions of drivers were downright dangerous and terrifying for a new driver
>
In reply to Timmd:
Are you really suggesting that every driver on the inside lane should slow down a bit when approaching a slip road?
Are you really suggesting that every driver on the inside lane should slow down a bit when approaching a slip road?
In reply to didntcomelast:
...and therefore, when working properly they're flowing faster the further right you go. It's not a huge leap from there to the colloquial 'slow lane' and 'fast lane' nor is the use of those terms automatically indicative of someone who doesn't understand how roads should and do work.
My take on this is you should pass on the defensive driving you've learned over the years to your daughter and that there's not much point in complaining about the things you can't change, people making mistakes while driving being one of those things.
jk
> Where is it written there is a slow lane an by definition on a two or three lane motorway, a fast lane. The speed limit is the same on all lanes unless indicated by signs.
> I was taught that the outer lanes were for overtaking only.
> I was taught that the outer lanes were for overtaking only.
...and therefore, when working properly they're flowing faster the further right you go. It's not a huge leap from there to the colloquial 'slow lane' and 'fast lane' nor is the use of those terms automatically indicative of someone who doesn't understand how roads should and do work.
My take on this is you should pass on the defensive driving you've learned over the years to your daughter and that there's not much point in complaining about the things you can't change, people making mistakes while driving being one of those things.
jk
In reply to Tom Valentine:
That would be a problem but for the fact I don't recall it ever actually happening.
The reality is that people do generally look where they're going and they do adjust their speed a little to make space and there are at least two people involved so even if one is having an off day the other still makes the space. It clearly works.
jk
> The problem arises where those joining make an assumption that your "convention" is a given, without weighing the variables that the person on the motorway has to contend with.
That would be a problem but for the fact I don't recall it ever actually happening.
The reality is that people do generally look where they're going and they do adjust their speed a little to make space and there are at least two people involved so even if one is having an off day the other still makes the space. It clearly works.
jk
In reply to Tom Valentine:
Ideally you should move into the middle lane, especially if you can see that people joining. Depends how busy it is obviously.
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> Are you really suggesting that every driver on the inside lane should slow down a bit when approaching a slip road?
>
> Are you really suggesting that every driver on the inside lane should slow down a bit when approaching a slip road?
Ideally you should move into the middle lane, especially if you can see that people joining. Depends how busy it is obviously.
In reply to jkarran:
I have never disagreed with the point that we should make way for people where possible. I am one of the most forgiving drivers i know, even to the point of letting people in who have cynically stayed in the outside lane till the last moment in a two lane into one contraction, usually to my passengers' disgust. " Don't let him in! DON'T LET HIM IN! You SOFT GIT!!!"
I am worried about people making an assumption that, in busy periods, people on the motorway will always be able to make room for them. This obviously applies much more to joining a two lane carriageway and is why roads such as the old A1 were so dangerous.
I have never disagreed with the point that we should make way for people where possible. I am one of the most forgiving drivers i know, even to the point of letting people in who have cynically stayed in the outside lane till the last moment in a two lane into one contraction, usually to my passengers' disgust. " Don't let him in! DON'T LET HIM IN! You SOFT GIT!!!"
I am worried about people making an assumption that, in busy periods, people on the motorway will always be able to make room for them. This obviously applies much more to joining a two lane carriageway and is why roads such as the old A1 were so dangerous.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
I didn't think you had.
My point was that in reality this just doesn't seem to happen. Having at least two sets of common sense and self preservation instinct involved seems to allow us to actually get on just fine when merging into traffic. It's only a problem if it's actually a problem, imaginary problems are just that, imaginary.
I always thought the A1 was dangerous for the country lanes that crossed it via gaps in the (very narrow) central reservation and the ludicrously short and badly designed 'off-ramps'. Maybe we're thinking of different bits of A1, I guess it's pretty long.
jk
> I have never disagreed with the point that we should make way for people where possible.
I didn't think you had.
> I am worried about people making an assumption that, in busy periods, people on the motorway will always be able to make room for them. This obviously applies much more to joining a two lane carriageway and is why roads such as the old A1 were so dangerous.
My point was that in reality this just doesn't seem to happen. Having at least two sets of common sense and self preservation instinct involved seems to allow us to actually get on just fine when merging into traffic. It's only a problem if it's actually a problem, imaginary problems are just that, imaginary.
I always thought the A1 was dangerous for the country lanes that crossed it via gaps in the (very narrow) central reservation and the ludicrously short and badly designed 'off-ramps'. Maybe we're thinking of different bits of A1, I guess it's pretty long.
jk
In reply to jkarran: I seem to remember that on French motorways there is a double white line approaching slip roads that tends to influence you to move out to the outside lane and certainly not to move in. Here the problem is not only on motorways - there is a much used slip road on to a local bypass that through near misses I now always approach on the outside lane. I almost got wiped out by a minibus once that just drove out blindly into the flow of commuter traffic. I can see that learner drivers will find slip road behaviour a problem to deal with.
In reply to iccy:
Good advice. Also as a driver on the motorway it is good practice to be aware of up coming junctions and move into the middle lane if possible so that traffic entering the motorway can do so safely without loss of speed
> Very true. Often the easiest way to let a person onto a motorway is to slow down a little in advance of the junction to create space for entering traffic. My observation is that the closer the traffic speed is to 70+, the less willing people seem to be to make space by slowing down.
Good advice. Also as a driver on the motorway it is good practice to be aware of up coming junctions and move into the middle lane if possible so that traffic entering the motorway can do so safely without loss of speed
In reply to didntcomelast:
Slightly off topic but I remember picking up a group of four hitch hikers and luggage in my first car, a 1l Metro. Attempting to join the M20 London bound half way up Wrotham Hill left me on the hard shoulder till I got to the top of the hill as i couldn't get above 30.
Slightly off topic but I remember picking up a group of four hitch hikers and luggage in my first car, a 1l Metro. Attempting to join the M20 London bound half way up Wrotham Hill left me on the hard shoulder till I got to the top of the hill as i couldn't get above 30.
There seems to be an attitude with certain drivers that just because they are indicating, they can position their car wherever they like. They also seem to want to disprove the notion that two entities cannot occupy the same space at the same moment in time.
If you are joining a motorway (or de-restricted road) then it is your responsibility to ensure the way is clear. Yes, drivers on the motorway should think ahead and anticipate your approach, but many don't or cannot move.
So anyone who has stopped believing in the Tooth Fairy and capable of wiping their own arse should give way to traffic doing 70 mph plus.
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Indeed. When I did my Plod driver training I was told to think of driving like chess - always think 3 moves ahead
Indeed. When I did my Plod driver training I was told to think of driving like chess - always think 3 moves ahead
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
Exactly, like all motorway driving you need to plan well ahead. Once on the slip-road you get a good idea of the speed and density of traffic up ahead and start planning your entry accordingly.
I get the impression some folks dive up to the dotted line like it is a normal junction, then start wondering how to access the motorway!
Chris
> Indeed. When I did my Plod driver training I was told to think of driving like chess - always think 3 moves ahead
Exactly, like all motorway driving you need to plan well ahead. Once on the slip-road you get a good idea of the speed and density of traffic up ahead and start planning your entry accordingly.
I get the impression some folks dive up to the dotted line like it is a normal junction, then start wondering how to access the motorway!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I certainly get that impression. I'm also recently getting sick of people failing to accelerate to the speed of the prevailing traffic before reaching the bottom of the sliproad, and this is in modern cars entirely capable of doing it - obviously lorry drivers etc don't have much choice.
To these people, you are a massive hazard. If you don't have the confidence to drive correctly on the motorway, take some lessons first.
Neil
I certainly get that impression. I'm also recently getting sick of people failing to accelerate to the speed of the prevailing traffic before reaching the bottom of the sliproad, and this is in modern cars entirely capable of doing it - obviously lorry drivers etc don't have much choice.
To these people, you are a massive hazard. If you don't have the confidence to drive correctly on the motorway, take some lessons first.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Pretty much like the drivers who indicate and pull out in to the next lane because they are coming up on a slower vehicle. They seem to think it is acceptable to force the vehicle they are pulling out on to brake rather than them braking or perhaps thinking far enough ahead to accelerate up to speed first. They could even slow early and pull out behind. Lack of forethought and empathy I think is the cause of most problems on our roads.
Pretty much like the drivers who indicate and pull out in to the next lane because they are coming up on a slower vehicle. They seem to think it is acceptable to force the vehicle they are pulling out on to brake rather than them braking or perhaps thinking far enough ahead to accelerate up to speed first. They could even slow early and pull out behind. Lack of forethought and empathy I think is the cause of most problems on our roads.
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
Spot on, exactly the advice I gave to my daughter when teaching her. I also got her, at random moments, to give me the story of the road ahead with all the various potetial situations and hazards that could occur.
Spot on, exactly the advice I gave to my daughter when teaching her. I also got her, at random moments, to give me the story of the road ahead with all the various potetial situations and hazards that could occur.
In reply to Guy:
It's the fact they don't look in their mirrors to realise a car coming up in the lane on their outside. The car catching them up will reach them just as they reach the vehicle in front. So why wait till the last minute to overtake rather than pull out before you get boxed in?
> Pretty much like the drivers who indicate and pull out in to the next lane because they are coming up on a slower vehicle.
It's the fact they don't look in their mirrors to realise a car coming up in the lane on their outside. The car catching them up will reach them just as they reach the vehicle in front. So why wait till the last minute to overtake rather than pull out before you get boxed in?
In reply to Guy:
A lot of people seem not to have heard of Mirror-Signal-Manoeuvre or at least think the order is Signal-Mirror-Manoeuvre or even just Signal-Manoeuvre. I think a good rule of thumb for motorway driving is that if signalling is necesssary to change lanes safely then you shouldn't be changing lanes at all (though you should of course signal anyway). The exception being in slow queuing traffic as in towns.
What really annoys me is people who signal to say "I'm planning to change lanes at some point" rather than to say "I have looked in my mirror and am about to change lanes because it is safe to do so without forcing anyone to brake or to drive an unsafe distance behind me".
> Pretty much like the drivers who indicate and pull out in to the next lane because they are coming up on a slower vehicle.
A lot of people seem not to have heard of Mirror-Signal-Manoeuvre or at least think the order is Signal-Mirror-Manoeuvre or even just Signal-Manoeuvre. I think a good rule of thumb for motorway driving is that if signalling is necesssary to change lanes safely then you shouldn't be changing lanes at all (though you should of course signal anyway). The exception being in slow queuing traffic as in towns.
What really annoys me is people who signal to say "I'm planning to change lanes at some point" rather than to say "I have looked in my mirror and am about to change lanes because it is safe to do so without forcing anyone to brake or to drive an unsafe distance behind me".
In reply to didntcomelast:
Whilst I am a firm believer in courtesy and allowances for all I am also an even firmer believer that the rules are paramount. Nice definite written rules mean that we all play the same game. Yes that is a pain at times and it is nice to try to reduce the annoyance that happens but the rules MUST come first otherwise no one knows what is going to happen. I usually move over if I am in the inside lane but I am damned if I am putting my self at risk to break the rules.
I get similarly stroppy about the f***wits who flash their lights when they want you to pull out of a T junction so that they don't have to turn the corner properly. ie trying to say something with that flash that isn't correct.
Whilst I am a firm believer in courtesy and allowances for all I am also an even firmer believer that the rules are paramount. Nice definite written rules mean that we all play the same game. Yes that is a pain at times and it is nice to try to reduce the annoyance that happens but the rules MUST come first otherwise no one knows what is going to happen. I usually move over if I am in the inside lane but I am damned if I am putting my self at risk to break the rules.
I get similarly stroppy about the f***wits who flash their lights when they want you to pull out of a T junction so that they don't have to turn the corner properly. ie trying to say something with that flash that isn't correct.
In reply to didntcomelast:
Have you considered a Skoda Octavia ?? They seem to get a good write up on here and all climbers have them . There would be no issue in Joining a motorway in an Octavia , all fellow uk climbers would instantly recognise you on their pilgrimage north when Scottish and lakes " conditions " are right , and move over a lane to let you join the network without any issue . You could then ask the collective for 100 best driving anthems , do a winter climb , lose a glove and an axe , return back on the motorway ( no issues again as you are in an Octvia ) and post about your lost items .
When it gets milder sell your winter gear through this site , ask what rope deals are about then drive to font in summer ( again in the Octavia have no issues on the motorway ) .
A simple solution for uk driving !!!
Have you considered a Skoda Octavia ?? They seem to get a good write up on here and all climbers have them . There would be no issue in Joining a motorway in an Octavia , all fellow uk climbers would instantly recognise you on their pilgrimage north when Scottish and lakes " conditions " are right , and move over a lane to let you join the network without any issue . You could then ask the collective for 100 best driving anthems , do a winter climb , lose a glove and an axe , return back on the motorway ( no issues again as you are in an Octvia ) and post about your lost items .
When it gets milder sell your winter gear through this site , ask what rope deals are about then drive to font in summer ( again in the Octavia have no issues on the motorway ) .
A simple solution for uk driving !!!
In reply to Robert Durran:
You can count me as one of those. It's what allows me to get back to the inside lane and still be happy that - by indicating my intent - someone in lane 2 can modify their speed slightly and allow me to pull out again. There is no point in indicating an intent if you are already in the maneuver.
> What really annoys me is people who signal to say "I'm planning to change lanes at some point"
You can count me as one of those. It's what allows me to get back to the inside lane and still be happy that - by indicating my intent - someone in lane 2 can modify their speed slightly and allow me to pull out again. There is no point in indicating an intent if you are already in the maneuver.
In reply to iccy:
Yes, that's the junction that sprang to mind for me, too - very difficult without some cooperation from drivers already on the M6. But most are much better.
Yes, that's the junction that sprang to mind for me, too - very difficult without some cooperation from drivers already on the M6. But most are much better.
In reply to GrahamD:
But it can be hairy if your in lane 2 and some one in lane one does this just as your about to pass. You have to make a split second call on if they are indicating intent (carry on as normal) or hasn't he see me and is about to pull out (slam on the brakes if there isn't an audi behind you or step steer into lane 3 and hope it's free).
> You can count me as one of those. It's what allows me to get back to the inside lane and still be happy that - by indicating my intent - someone in lane 2 can modify their speed slightly and allow me to pull out again. There is no point in indicating an intent if you are already in the maneuver.
But it can be hairy if your in lane 2 and some one in lane one does this just as your about to pass. You have to make a split second call on if they are indicating intent (carry on as normal) or hasn't he see me and is about to pull out (slam on the brakes if there isn't an audi behind you or step steer into lane 3 and hope it's free).
Post edited at 14:49
In reply to dapoy:
Well you obviously signal taking into account the situation around you, I'd hope !
Well you obviously signal taking into account the situation around you, I'd hope !
In reply to GrahamD:
Agreed, but some don't and there is always a crease down the middle of my seat when it happens.
Agreed, but some don't and there is always a crease down the middle of my seat when it happens.
In reply to stewieatb:
That's right. Had one or two 'interesting' experiences there and try and avoid it now. It's made worse by the fact that there is no hard shoulder to bale out into in case of difficulties.
That's right. Had one or two 'interesting' experiences there and try and avoid it now. It's made worse by the fact that there is no hard shoulder to bale out into in case of difficulties.
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