UKC

I'm considering changing my ice axes to a pair that don't have an adze. How do people get on without an adze? I think I'll be okay clearing cracks etc but I imagine I'd struggle when digging avalanche test pits and snow belays?

In reply to iamaclimber:

i thought test pits were best dug with a shovel?
alu telescopic shovels are fairly light now

In reply to iamaclimber:


Why?

In reply to iamaclimber:


I just changed to adzeless and found it easy to dig a test pit using the pick, just cut all around and remove loose snow with hands or feet. I haven't built a snow belay in years but imagine it'd be similarly straight forward. To cut through a cornice I just use the pick to hack out the right and left sides, then undercut the middle till it drops away, usually best to warn the belayer then too...

The biggest drama is not being able to jam the adze in wide cracks, hopefully technique will work instead....

In reply to iamaclimber:

Got rid of mine 3 years ago. Only had to use a axe belay once. The pinky rest on the bottom of the quark dug pretty well. I use the pick to hack out an ice ledge if I need one. I do carry a BD lynx shovel to dig pits etc. comes in handy for the car as well. All depends what climbing you do and where. If I went to somewhere that had big snow faces I'd put it back on. But water ice, I don't bother.

In reply to owena:


If you wanted to dig a standardised pit then yes, but you don't need to do this, the simpler the better, especially if it encourages you to dig more pits. Just cut out a square, play with the side to see what layers there are, then load the top to see how easily it fails.


I'm still not going to carry one on a route so I can use it to figure out if the descent gully is safe. Lighter shovels are also more easily broken, there is a good test report, maybe from Austrian Alpine Club or DAV which managed to break a fair few at the shoulder by standing on it to get the shovel to penetrate hard snow.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Thanks for the comments. Looks like I will be okay without an adze.

In reply to iamaclimber:
Hi,
I have two micro hammers on my Vipers and they seem to work just fine.
Took the adze off for drytooling and never replaced it ... It you were going to devise an eye removing device then an adze seems a good place to start.

Bruce

In reply to iamaclimber:

I think it depends on what you are doing. I wouldn't want to be without an adze on long routes, of an alpine nature, when it would come in handy to cut steps. There are times when it is better to cut steps than waste time donning and removing crampons. I don't recall using mine for cascade climbing however where you can probably manahge without.

In reply to jonnie3430:

Re digging pits:
http://www.fsavalanche.org/Default.aspx?ContentId=33&LinkId=45&Pare...

"His results showed that about a third of all of his snowpits could not reliably predict the snow stability of even these small plots."

I'd be far more inclined to pay attention to weather forecast/avalanche forecast and make decisions based on the big picture i.e. avoid or minimise exposure to avalanche hazard by planning my route i.e. approach/descent than footer about digging wee holes with my axe. Even if it gets to that stage it can be often the case that the weaker layers are deeper in the snow pack.

Out of curiosity - what's a standardised pit? Sounds like you are talking about a walking rutschblock but they really need to be dug about a 1m square and created on a slope around 30 degree angle, ensuring you isolate the block down to a stable layer.

In reply to iamaclimber:

I've not had an adze for a few years. I manage everything with my axe picks and crampons for Scottish and Alpine. I think they are something traditionally fitted on axes but are not essential when the quality of modern day picks and crampon points is so high.

In reply to GridNorth:


What about cutting stances in hard snow (or even bivvy ledges)? The tiny adze I've got is pretty inadequate; I'm thinking of getting a bigger one - maybe I'm just not trendy enough.

In reply to iamaclimber:

I use my adze a lot, and when soloing will take x 2 axes and no hammer. One of my partners never carries anything to hammer in so hammer heads are useless to him, so x2 axes.

Adze much better for clearing holds, cutting stances and camming in wider cracks, and for pulling up on when going over chock stones.

Might not be applicable to very high grades though?

In reply to top cat:


Not even hexes and nuts?!
Nothing is sweeter than a wellied in hex 9.

In reply to george mc:


That's the one I was thinking of.

Do you not think there is some merit in digging a pit? If you choose to come of the Buachaille by the buttress to the West instead of Coire Na Tulaich because you think is safer for the conditions, but you encounter a slope that you are unsure of would there not be some value in a pit? MCoS (http://www.mcofs.org.uk/avalanche-safety-advice.asp under snowpack,) suggest that more tests means you get an idea of the stability of the slope and I suppose more tests would also mean its more likely to identify the 2/3rds that show stability (if 1/3 don't.)

In reply to Robert Durran:

With you!

In reply to Martin1978:


I'll ask again...

Why?

In reply to jonnie3430:


There is merit in digging pits - as teaching aids. However as a means of assessing whether a slope is safe or not. No.

Why? First off spatial variability has a big influence. In your scenario how many pits would you dig on your suspect slope - one, two, three? Personally I can's see that. To dig a rutschblock takes time, using the method you link also takes time. How long you going to spend?

In all likelihood your technique for measuring stability will give you a middle figure - where does that leave you? Take a chance...How lucky do you feel?

I believe climbers far to often forget the whole planning stage and taking into account the avalanche hazard, weather etc. In your scenario I'd have decided, given the prevailing conditions, whether climbing on the Buchaille gave me enough options with regard to approach/descent free from avalanche hazard or at least on the aspects I was thinking of using. If the hazard was too great or too widespread on where I was going I'd choose a different venue.

Bottom line is using 'tests' such as rutschblock etc don't provide you with reliable bombproof data. Doing lot's of them, and I mean lot's will at best give you a sense of the overall stability of the snowpack, but bottom line, is your day out will pretty much consist of digging holes. Most climbers won't do that but might, at a push, dig one or two. Nowhere near enough to give you reliable data. Hence I'd be trying as far as possible to avoid the avalanche 'minefield' by making good decisions based using the 3x3 process:

snow/weather; terrain; people (human factors)

at the following stages:

Planning; on your approach (journey); at the scene

In saying that the various techniques for measuring slope stability have their uses except although I'd hesitate to call them tests. I think information gathering tools is more apt and less confusing. Tests they are not. Information gained using these techniques should be filtered back into the above matrix.If in any doubt you avoid the slope.

Again in your scenario more often than not there will always be a safer option (avoiding localised or general avalanche hazard)you can use to descend - although it may mean a longer walk.

This link is a bit more up to date:

http://www.sais.gov.uk/avalanche-awareness.asp

In reply to iamaclimber:

I use BD fushion 2 and had no bother digging snow belay.

In reply to george mc:
I think you are spot on George. An added benefit of choosing a sensible location and route (as well as approach and descent) is the routes tend to be in better nick too, who wants to be wadeing through / clearing off tonnes of powder / spindrift.