UKC

Flicking through the Rockfax North Wales guide book it struck me that there are loads of climbs at Diff/VDiff and loads of Severes. However, there are a disproportionatley small number of HVD's (maybe only 4 or 5 in the whole book at a glance).

Is this a quirk of the routes selected for the book, do the easier Welsh mountain crags simply not lend themselves to housing HVD routes, or is HVD a special grade only to be found in the gritty lands further east? :-p

My trad leading career is slowly gaining momentum, with the plan being to get comfortable on Severe's this year and maybe push on a bit further. Being a Snowdonia trad virgin I'm obviously not going to grumble at the huge number of great Diff/VDiff routes out there, but I'm just intruiged where the stepping stone HVD climbs have all vanished to?

Cheers,

Mike.

In reply to Otis:

You lucky b*stard, with all that quality ahead of you!

I'm not sure that the difference between VD and Severe is so great that an intermediate grade is helpful. Take some tat; be prepared to back off; and go for it.

Recommended HVDs: Christmas Curry, Pinnacle Ridge, Grooved Arete, Wrinkle, Crackstone Rib (OK, a tad harder, but worth a pop), Poor Mans Peuterey, Bramble Buttress... there's loads!

In reply to Otis:

Some areas use grades that aren't used elsewhere. The Lakes uses mild severe rather than HVD and also mild VS's, off the top of my head, I can't think of another area that uses MVS. Even in the Lakes, such grades aren't commonly used, they are just "in between grades" a bit like using a +/-. I've always thought of HVD as a similar in between grade and it seems far less common than VD or Severe where it is used.

In reply to pec:

Don't forget the popular "MVS+"

- is this a mild "VS+" (ie slightly harder than VS)
- is this a hard "MVS" (ie slightly easier than VS)






(latter)

In reply to Otis:

Every HVD I've ever done has been the biggest sandbag ever. It's one of those comedy grades usually reserved for something 'old school' in style. Have fun!

In reply to Cusco:

Wasn't Flying Buttress at Stanage HVD - I seem to remember on freezing cold morning contemplating the move around the corner thinking, "shit, I'm gonna get spanked off of a HVD".

In reply to Otis:

There's not many HVD's in the Peak either.

Like Rob said, the difference between HVD and Severe is pretty subtle.

MTFU and go for it.

In reply to Otis:

I think HVD is a bit more than an in-between grade, especially if your climbing at around that level when small nuances can make a big difference. My impression of HVDs is that they're more committing than Diffs and may involve moves which are not technically difficult but awkward. Severes may be technically a bit harder but have more conventional moves.

It's a useful grade which carries the implication that it could be "interesting" rather than hard. Perhaps modern improvements in gear has taken the sting out of some of the awkward moves, and plenty seem to have been upgraded to Severe for no apparent reason.

In reply to tri-nitro-toulumne:

There are several hundreds HVDs in the peak and the sandbags have largely gone except maybe on the most obscure Moorland crags. It's a not especially well established grade in Snowdonia so it's no surprise there are not many there. As for their utility, those leading Vdiff routes and wanting to improve certainly find them useful.

On another question: there are MVS routes in Yorkshire and the Peak, albeit not so many, most routes of that grade get HS. I don't think MVS exists as an independent grade from HS ( they broadly mean the same thing) there is at the very least a strong overlap so they certainly don't work as UKC use it on logbooks as, for instance, the hardest HS climbs on grit would get VS in the Lakes.

In reply to Otis:

There always were less HVD's than VDiffs and Severes?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

PMP was HS in whichever book I had when I did it! I see it is S on the Rockfax database now. I make no personal comment on its grade as it was so long ago and I didn't have enough lead experience to judge it. Plus I was seconding it, in drag involving a miniskirt...

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Are any of those given HVD? Christmas Curry and Poor Mans Peuterey have been Severe at least for yonks and I thought the others remain at VD (except I don't know which of the many Pinnacle Ridge routes that you meant).

In reply to Offwidth:


Ah yes, I forgotten, there are a few MVS's in the Peak, especially on limestone if I recall.
In the Lakes both HS and MVS are used so they are considered independant grades there at least.

In reply to Otis: You don't really get HVD's in mountains. It's more of a gritstone grade and as others have said they are often sandbags and a real struggle. My personal theory is that grade came about because they relate to climbs that are harder than V Diff, often much harder, but as they aren't technical they don't get graded as Severe/Hard Severe etc. Essentially once you get into the various Severe grades you're also getting into technical grades 4a, 4b and so on but you can't put a technical grade on something that is just a thrutchy struggle. Therefore the grade is given to climbs that are generally hard but non technical.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:


There is one on the In Pinn (the only one in Scotland?), though the new guide might have changed the grade

In reply to Otis:

Because when Wales does HVD's..

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29152

In reply to Otis:

Wrinkle is probably a HVD (it's a dangerous sandbag at VD) and possibly harder.

In reply to Otis:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29152

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Wrinkle is not an especially dangerous sandbag its arguably just a bit under-graded. For a real dangerous sandbag in Snowdonia you need to look at things like Wall Climb where every moronic UKC vote was for tough VD or easy HVD and I'd say HS 4a by the left start and VS 4c by the right. One comment was "hardest VD I've ever done" and another was the start was harder than anything on Soapgut which are more like the truth for a VD leader (its not the hardest route given VD for me but I seek such things out).

As for Red Wall that's a mild sandbag UKC logbook HVD, a lot harder than Crackstone Rib IMHO unless conditions are perfect, when its similar (and such conditions are rare).

In reply to Otis:

Cheers for your comments everyone. Having looked back through the HVD's I have done, there are certainly one or two in there that caused me to raise an eyebrow at the time due to being 'interesting' (the top out on Karabiner Chimney was a giggle - afterwards!)

Looking at the BMC grade comparison table, plus the grade table in my A55 sport climb guide book, it's interesting to note that HVD as a grade is completely absent, with VDiff running straight into Severe.

I think that where the HVD grade exists in an area I climb in (e.g. west side of the peak district) I'll take note of it and pick routes accordingly. However, where it clearly isn't in favaour (such as N Wales) it's just time to acknowledge that the next step up from VDiff is Severe and not to get too hung up on grades when I want to push on a bit!

Mike.

In reply to Otis:

Well done Mike
"it's just time to acknowledge that the next step up from VDiff is Severe and not to get too hung up on grad"
you've sorted the wheat from the chaff!!
Steve