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If a company has been out of business since the late nineties, the company name is no longer registered at companies house, and during its life that company was of a certain standing within the industry it was concerned with, is that company name fair game? Of course people would associate the company with what the old company used to do which is the whole point. Is it fair to get a leg up by trading on somebody elses hard work? Even if what you plan to do is absolutely in the spirit of the old company? Send me your reckons...
In reply to mike kann:
Morally I don't see an real issue if the company is properly dead and gone. You might find it comes with some baggage though. As well as the positives you'd potentially gain from the name you may find they left a string of creditors and while you'd not be liable for the debts of the dead company you may still find yourself occasionally dealing with fallout.
jk
Morally I don't see an real issue if the company is properly dead and gone. You might find it comes with some baggage though. As well as the positives you'd potentially gain from the name you may find they left a string of creditors and while you'd not be liable for the debts of the dead company you may still find yourself occasionally dealing with fallout.
jk
In reply to mike kann:
Might you run into intellectual property concerns here? If I had run a company successfully marketing a product called 'XXX' then someone else came along later to market a similar product, I might well think I was due some proportion of the proceeds in return for the hard work I'd done building the brand originally. Might be a nice contribution to my pension.
I don't know what the legality would be, but I am sure there's plenty of lawyers who would be only too happy to advise both sides! How about cutting them out and approaching any surviving directors or shareholders of the old company directly?
Might you run into intellectual property concerns here? If I had run a company successfully marketing a product called 'XXX' then someone else came along later to market a similar product, I might well think I was due some proportion of the proceeds in return for the hard work I'd done building the brand originally. Might be a nice contribution to my pension.
I don't know what the legality would be, but I am sure there's plenty of lawyers who would be only too happy to advise both sides! How about cutting them out and approaching any surviving directors or shareholders of the old company directly?
In reply to jkarran: Hmm - hadn't thought of that aspect. Thing is it was a truly classic brand and it's demise was an utter shame... it still has a strong following many years later...
In reply to Rob Exile Ward: The old owner is also demised unfortunately... I know the company went through a couple of buy outs but failed in the end - I think mainly as it was shoved in a different direction which wasn't really its heritage.
In reply to mike kann:
As Rob says, you will need to fully understand he intellectual property situation. This might be useful.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find.htm
As Rob says, you will need to fully understand he intellectual property situation. This might be useful.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find.htm
In reply to mike kann:
I remember when Adrian Longworth revived the Flandria Bikes name back in 2002.
http://www.flandriabikes.com/about-us
E
I remember when Adrian Longworth revived the Flandria Bikes name back in 2002.
http://www.flandriabikes.com/about-us
E
In reply to mike kann:
You might want to check the UK and Community trademark registers. They are online and free. It's possible someone else bought the rights, although if the brand really hasn't been used for years they may have lapsed.
I think you're right that the main risk is of association with the original company and being accused of passing off, but that's only an issue if someone has a better claim than you do and can prove it.
You might want to check the UK and Community trademark registers. They are online and free. It's possible someone else bought the rights, although if the brand really hasn't been used for years they may have lapsed.
I think you're right that the main risk is of association with the original company and being accused of passing off, but that's only an issue if someone has a better claim than you do and can prove it.
In reply to all:
So I've just done some checking, the company concerned seems to have been bought and held until 2010 when it was dissolved after having files returns showing effectively a dormant company with total shares valued at 2 pounds. I'm pretty certain that this company didn't bring product to the market during their ownership of the company.
So I've just done some checking, the company concerned seems to have been bought and held until 2010 when it was dissolved after having files returns showing effectively a dormant company with total shares valued at 2 pounds. I'm pretty certain that this company didn't bring product to the market during their ownership of the company.
In reply to mike kann:
You need to check who owns the intellectual property. Also, if you are likely to start producing products similar to the old way, you are likely to run into problems. Rover has been defunct for a while but you would run into a whole heap of trouble if you tried to produce a car called a Rover, namely because no one would buy it!
You need to check who owns the intellectual property. Also, if you are likely to start producing products similar to the old way, you are likely to run into problems. Rover has been defunct for a while but you would run into a whole heap of trouble if you tried to produce a car called a Rover, namely because no one would buy it!
In reply to mike kann:
Also just check trademarks - can't find any registered but then I might be looking for the wrong thing...
Also just check trademarks - can't find any registered but then I might be looking for the wrong thing...
In reply to The New NickB:
Agreed. I bought a pair from Go Outdoors. They are possibly the worst pair of approach shoes I have ever owned. Avoid at all costs. The Karrimor of today is not that of yesteryear.
> Karrimor
> Owned and degraded by Mike Ashley.
Agreed. I bought a pair from Go Outdoors. They are possibly the worst pair of approach shoes I have ever owned. Avoid at all costs. The Karrimor of today is not that of yesteryear.
In reply to ByEek:
Ye gods - I can think of nothing worse than trying to revive rover. Didn't a chinese company buy it anyway and just literally send their men over, unbolted the machines and lines from the floor and moved the entire thing over to China in one hit?
Ye gods - I can think of nothing worse than trying to revive rover. Didn't a chinese company buy it anyway and just literally send their men over, unbolted the machines and lines from the floor and moved the entire thing over to China in one hit?
In reply to mike kann:
I think so. That said we must not forget there is a bleary eyed market in this country, mainly of elderly people who appreciate an off gold coloured car that drives like a sponge.
I think so. That said we must not forget there is a bleary eyed market in this country, mainly of elderly people who appreciate an off gold coloured car that drives like a sponge.
In reply to mike kann: I remember when I was setting up a Ltd for my contracting, and I checked if Enron was available. It was, but I decided against it.
In reply to mike kann:
So basically if I'm not using their IP (can't think of anything they would have been able to patent in the first place) and not reusing logo's or any trademarks they originally used then there's nowt they could do anyway I guess... hmm...
So basically if I'm not using their IP (can't think of anything they would have been able to patent in the first place) and not reusing logo's or any trademarks they originally used then there's nowt they could do anyway I guess... hmm...
In reply to mike kann:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1528919.stm
Should be of interest. According the the story you could be trying to bring back Opal Fruits, Marathons or Jif? Which is it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1528919.stm
Should be of interest. According the the story you could be trying to bring back Opal Fruits, Marathons or Jif? Which is it?
In reply to mike kann:
An example of "baggage" could be in relation to so called "life time guarantees".
John Punter isn't going to be very impressed if he tries to return his "Happy Hiker" waterproof belay jacket for repair and you tell him to "sod off" because the Happy Hiker Company company he bought from doesn't exist any more but you are using the name. He's going to go straight onto UKC and tell everyone to boycott you.....
An example of "baggage" could be in relation to so called "life time guarantees".
John Punter isn't going to be very impressed if he tries to return his "Happy Hiker" waterproof belay jacket for repair and you tell him to "sod off" because the Happy Hiker Company company he bought from doesn't exist any more but you are using the name. He's going to go straight onto UKC and tell everyone to boycott you.....
In reply to mike kann:
Please take this in the spirit with which it is intended: reading this it seems to me that you've probably made your mind up already!
That's OK, I'd be tempted to go for it as well UNLESS I was having to make serious representations, due diligence etc to raise cash, because you might be deemed at fault if you didn't disclose to a prospective investor that there might be a problem.
Otherwise what's the worst that can happen? 'Oi, you're using our trademark.' 'OOps sorry about that, obviously I haven't caused you any damages because you're not using it, how much do you want for it or I'll use another.'
Please take this in the spirit with which it is intended: reading this it seems to me that you've probably made your mind up already!
That's OK, I'd be tempted to go for it as well UNLESS I was having to make serious representations, due diligence etc to raise cash, because you might be deemed at fault if you didn't disclose to a prospective investor that there might be a problem.
Otherwise what's the worst that can happen? 'Oi, you're using our trademark.' 'OOps sorry about that, obviously I haven't caused you any damages because you're not using it, how much do you want for it or I'll use another.'
In reply to MG:
probably why they went bust - shifting short lifespan products mean you can sell your punters replacements
probably why they went bust - shifting short lifespan products mean you can sell your punters replacements
In reply to MG:
That was an example I was trying to think of where someone bought the brand name. Karrimoor were already in severe trouble before SD bought them. They've just capitalised on the name.
Regards their 'approach' shoes. I buy three pairs a year for £20 each when they're on offer. They're ok for the high street. I wouldn't go to sports direct for sports or outdoor equipment other than running shirts or shorts.
That was an example I was trying to think of where someone bought the brand name. Karrimoor were already in severe trouble before SD bought them. They've just capitalised on the name.
Regards their 'approach' shoes. I buy three pairs a year for £20 each when they're on offer. They're ok for the high street. I wouldn't go to sports direct for sports or outdoor equipment other than running shirts or shorts.
In reply to ByEek:
I quite like them, provided you see them for what they now are - cheap trainers. Very easy to get size 13s, as well, and the fit is always the same so I know they fit.
I also have a "new Karrimor" 30l rucksack which makes a perfect hand luggage bag.
Neil
I quite like them, provided you see them for what they now are - cheap trainers. Very easy to get size 13s, as well, and the fit is always the same so I know they fit.
I also have a "new Karrimor" 30l rucksack which makes a perfect hand luggage bag.
Neil
Post edited at 10:25
In reply to Neil Williams:
Fair enough. I have no idea what type of approach shoes they are, but the inner soles kept moving so I had to super glue them. It then turns out that the waterproofing is totally non-breathable meaning that I ended up with various fungal infections as a result of having constantly sweaty feet. And like all other approach shoes I have ever had, the laces keep coming undone.
Is it possible to buy approach shoes with laces that don't keep coming undone - even with a double knot pulled as tightly as possible? I complained to Merrell once about it who suggested that I relace my shoes and tie the knot half way down the shoe. Sounds like bodge to me.
Fair enough. I have no idea what type of approach shoes they are, but the inner soles kept moving so I had to super glue them. It then turns out that the waterproofing is totally non-breathable meaning that I ended up with various fungal infections as a result of having constantly sweaty feet. And like all other approach shoes I have ever had, the laces keep coming undone.
Is it possible to buy approach shoes with laces that don't keep coming undone - even with a double knot pulled as tightly as possible? I complained to Merrell once about it who suggested that I relace my shoes and tie the knot half way down the shoe. Sounds like bodge to me.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
To be honest, not set on it at all - just wanted some varying opinions. Of course starting again has it's own attractions...
To be honest, not set on it at all - just wanted some varying opinions. Of course starting again has it's own attractions...
In reply to ByEek:
Ah, the waterproof ones. I agree those are crap (I had the same issue with loose footbeds when I tried some once). It's the cheaper non-waterproof ones I go for, which other than being non-waterproof are OK.
As for laces coming undone, perhaps you could replace with normal cotton shoelaces? It'll be the type of lace that causes it, not the type of shoe.
Neil
Ah, the waterproof ones. I agree those are crap (I had the same issue with loose footbeds when I tried some once). It's the cheaper non-waterproof ones I go for, which other than being non-waterproof are OK.
As for laces coming undone, perhaps you could replace with normal cotton shoelaces? It'll be the type of lace that causes it, not the type of shoe.
Neil
Post edited at 10:45
In reply to mike kann:
Yet the revival of Triumph was, well, a triumph.
> Ye gods - I can think of nothing worse than trying to revive rover.
Yet the revival of Triumph was, well, a triumph.
In reply to mike kann:
As others have said it 's all in the ip. Somebody could have bought the ip and just be sitting on it waiting for the right time to remarket.
if it was a big name, probably all tied up.
As others have said it 's all in the ip. Somebody could have bought the ip and just be sitting on it waiting for the right time to remarket.
if it was a big name, probably all tied up.
In reply to neilh:
I've got a nice new Marshall Amplification t-shirt. (Amp blew up rather a long time ago, though)
I've got a nice new Marshall Amplification t-shirt. (Amp blew up rather a long time ago, though)
In reply to neilh:
As I say though, you can't really protect what they did - it's all been done a million times before - they just did it well... they were always pretty niche and small and had great product but got over taken by others as technology progressed...
As I say though, you can't really protect what they did - it's all been done a million times before - they just did it well... they were always pretty niche and small and had great product but got over taken by others as technology progressed...
In reply to mike kann:
IANAL, but I'd guess that the brand name will still be locked down and trademarked, probably buried somewhere in the collection of assets that one of their creditors took when they went out of business.
The danger is that if you use that brand name and become successful then the creditor in question will remember that they actually own that name, and give you the choice between paying them to continue using it or completely rebranding (thereby undoing a lot of work that you've put in building up a reputation etc). Since the latter option could be a major pain in the arse, they'll probably feel like they can set a fairly high price.
You might have better luck tracking them down now and buying the brand name off them at a cut-down price before you've got too much bound up in it - ie when they'll see an opportunity to make a little bit of cash for free, rather than to hold you to ransom for loads.
IANAL, but I'd guess that the brand name will still be locked down and trademarked, probably buried somewhere in the collection of assets that one of their creditors took when they went out of business.
The danger is that if you use that brand name and become successful then the creditor in question will remember that they actually own that name, and give you the choice between paying them to continue using it or completely rebranding (thereby undoing a lot of work that you've put in building up a reputation etc). Since the latter option could be a major pain in the arse, they'll probably feel like they can set a fairly high price.
You might have better luck tracking them down now and buying the brand name off them at a cut-down price before you've got too much bound up in it - ie when they'll see an opportunity to make a little bit of cash for free, rather than to hold you to ransom for loads.
In reply to mike kann:
Is it Ratners?
You can have an identical business name to someone else, it's not unusual. How many people sunk their redundancies into self employment called Phoenix or Acorn?
(There's Phoenix Cars round here, 'brought back from the dead').
Apart from copyright there needs to be someone with an interest in the name to pursue you if you also used it.
Is it Ratners?
You can have an identical business name to someone else, it's not unusual. How many people sunk their redundancies into self employment called Phoenix or Acorn?
(There's Phoenix Cars round here, 'brought back from the dead').
Apart from copyright there needs to be someone with an interest in the name to pursue you if you also used it.
In reply to winhill:
So long as they are in different sectors. So I could open up a cider shop called Apple but I'd be on thin ice if I opened up a PC-maker called Apple.
> You can have an identical business name to someone else, it's not unusual. How many people sunk their redundancies into self employment called Phoenix or Acorn?
So long as they are in different sectors. So I could open up a cider shop called Apple but I'd be on thin ice if I opened up a PC-maker called Apple.
In reply to winhill:
My guess is Mountain Technology, HB or Troll - although I thought all of those did more-or-less survive until the early 2000s. OTOH MT or HB would seem to fit with "it's all been done a million times before - they just did it well". Or is that just my rose-tinted retro-spectacles?
My guess is Mountain Technology, HB or Troll - although I thought all of those did more-or-less survive until the early 2000s. OTOH MT or HB would seem to fit with "it's all been done a million times before - they just did it well". Or is that just my rose-tinted retro-spectacles?
In reply to Bob Hughes:
I think Apple sue if they hear about you at all.
OTOH JD Plumbing of Motherwell is unlikely to sue JD Plumbing of Plymouth.
> So long as they are in different sectors. So I could open up a cider shop called Apple but I'd be on thin ice if I opened up a PC-maker called Apple.
I think Apple sue if they hear about you at all.
OTOH JD Plumbing of Motherwell is unlikely to sue JD Plumbing of Plymouth.
In reply to Martin W:
Don't Wild Country still own Troll? I've seen new Troll carabiners and T-shirts in the last year.
The OP seems to be avoiding mentioning Phoenix though.
> My guess is Mountain Technology, HB or Troll - although I thought all of those did more-or-less survive until the early 2000s. OTOH MT or HB would seem to fit with "it's all been done a million times before - they just did it well". Or is that just my rose-tinted retro-spectacles?
Don't Wild Country still own Troll? I've seen new Troll carabiners and T-shirts in the last year.
The OP seems to be avoiding mentioning Phoenix though.
In reply to Martin W:
Oh I dunno - HB did make offset brassies... that hadn't been done before... keep guessing eh
Oh I dunno - HB did make offset brassies... that hadn't been done before... keep guessing eh
In reply to winhill:
I've avoided mentioning all sorts of people... Phoenix were good though... not them though...
I've avoided mentioning all sorts of people... Phoenix were good though... not them though...
In reply to winhill:
I don't think they ever did. They were bought out in the early '90s by a Bacou Dalloz, who closed the factory at Uppermill and moved their manufacturing over to Slovakia.
This http://www.trolluk.com/history is a bit vague about all that, but I guess they're essentially a new company trading on the old name and reputation (and reviving a few of the old products - Omni's are back! .
Meanwhile, there are other former Troll products still being sold by Bacou Dalloz (I think?) under the Miller name:
http://www.liftingsafety.co.uk/product/miller-ibex2-harness-2560.html
(The design of the new ones has actually changed a bit - the picture there is clearly of an old Troll Ibexx harness, it even has the "T" pattern on the webbing.)
> Don't Wild Country still own Troll? I've seen new Troll carabiners and T-shirts in the last year.
I don't think they ever did. They were bought out in the early '90s by a Bacou Dalloz, who closed the factory at Uppermill and moved their manufacturing over to Slovakia.
This http://www.trolluk.com/history is a bit vague about all that, but I guess they're essentially a new company trading on the old name and reputation (and reviving a few of the old products - Omni's are back! .
Meanwhile, there are other former Troll products still being sold by Bacou Dalloz (I think?) under the Miller name:
http://www.liftingsafety.co.uk/product/miller-ibex2-harness-2560.html
(The design of the new ones has actually changed a bit - the picture there is clearly of an old Troll Ibexx harness, it even has the "T" pattern on the webbing.)
In reply to mike kann:
The same Chinese company also acquired the names of all the ex-BMC, British Leyland, etc companies that hadn't yet been sold off. So if you wish to revive Riley, Triumph, Wolseley, Austin or Morris* as car brands, start learning Mandarin.
T.
* I think they're still the ones they own. I could be wrong mind.
> Ye gods - I can think of nothing worse than trying to revive rover.
The same Chinese company also acquired the names of all the ex-BMC, British Leyland, etc companies that hadn't yet been sold off. So if you wish to revive Riley, Triumph, Wolseley, Austin or Morris* as car brands, start learning Mandarin.
T.
* I think they're still the ones they own. I could be wrong mind.
In reply to mike kann:
There was news of North Cape making a comeback a year or two ago but nowt since. I used to swear by their cheap fibrepile and their fleece smocks.
Not really a cult brand in the mould of Phoenix, Troll or Karrimor though.
There was news of North Cape making a comeback a year or two ago but nowt since. I used to swear by their cheap fibrepile and their fleece smocks.
Not really a cult brand in the mould of Phoenix, Troll or Karrimor though.
In reply to mike kann:
I hope you're joking: that brand is still very much in use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolworths_Group#Woolworths.co.uk
http://www.woolworths.co.uk
I hope you're joking: that brand is still very much in use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolworths_Group#Woolworths.co.uk
http://www.woolworths.co.uk
In reply to mike kann:
Just because a company that owned a trademark is defunct, it doesn't mean that the trademark isn't owned. You can check here:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-os-forms/tm3-introduction.htm
Even if the trademark has lapsed, the you would presumably want to register it yourself.
You really don't want to go to all the trouble of producing items and marketing and sales material just to be sent a cease and desist letter from the trademark owner, believe me, I know!
Just because a company that owned a trademark is defunct, it doesn't mean that the trademark isn't owned. You can check here:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-os-forms/tm3-introduction.htm
Even if the trademark has lapsed, the you would presumably want to register it yourself.
You really don't want to go to all the trouble of producing items and marketing and sales material just to be sent a cease and desist letter from the trademark owner, believe me, I know!
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