/ Sochi Winter Olympics Opening Ceremony

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What did you think? I was quite impressed - similar to the London opening ceremony.
Bruce Hooker - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Not bad, it must be hard thinking of how to keep up with the previous ones. One point I'm wondering if the press will report is the Olympic president's speech when he told off those governments who didn't give their athlete's their full support, ie. those who had boycotted the ceremony for political reasons.

The Olympic flame was quite impressive, I suppose they've go plenty of gas!
balmybaldwin - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

My main thought was there's no snow which seems a bit odd for the winter olympics (i know theres plenty up on the mountain and in storage)
Mr Lopez - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Where did you guys get to watch it? There seems to be no tv coverage of the games at all? Or am i missing something?
Redacted - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
An absolutely spectacular Russian winter fairytale with everything,the strange stadium seemed totally unique in that it appeared to be really long.Oh and what were all those incredible projections on to the floor?It was amazing!Marred only by the moronic ravings of the Scottish and english commentators,bleating some negative historical nonsense when they got to the Soviet era,the greatest society the world has ever known.The ballet was incredible,my eyes welled up when Swan Lake began as i always cry when i see Swan Lake.I loved the fact the Chinese waved Russian flags with the CPC flag and didn't the soul Venezuelan lap up the huge cheers he got.Also,good old Zyuganov for wearing a big Soviet Red Star on his shoulder !And the wee lassie on the balloon...waow !
Post edited at 20:23
Redacted - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

It was on 2
Bruce Hooker - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I saw it on French national TV, A2. By the sound of it the commentary was as daft as on the BBC. They seemed to be obsessed by supposed symbolism about a family being a man and a women and such like. At least the athletes interviewed saw the practical side of things and said everything was well organised and finished, they'd have loved it if it hadn't been!
Mr Lopez - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Just caught it. It's on repeat on 301 just about to start, but the presenter is doing my head in...
John2 - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

A few random thoughts from the bits that I saw -

I hope no one ends up in the Siberian salt mines as a result of the malfunctioning snowflake.

Can there ever have been a more fantastic piece of music to accompany the lighting of the Olympic flame than Stravinsky's Firebird?

The BBC commentators were making much of the fact that the rhythmic gymnast who was part of the team that lit the flame did not really justify her presence in that team by her Olympic achievements, but is rumoured to be Putin's current squeeze.
In reply to John2:

Fair play to him - she's gorgeous.

Anna Netrebko is just a slightly better singer than Katherine Jenkins...
Mr Lopez - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I've given up. Can't listen to these goons any more, and the ceremony has not even started yet.
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Gotta be better than Alan Davies on Après Ski. The backwards R in their graphic is so novel and creative...
Bruce Hooker - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

It's been over for a couple of hours. The actual ceremony isn't too long - a "historical fresco" as they say. The French commentators made a lot about them not skipping the communist period, all in red and showing the industrialisation of Russia. According to the pundits this shows that Putin wishes to build on the Stalin experience rather than fully embrace Western democracy.

All a bit turgid (the commentary) but if it's true about the crumpet who helped carry the torch being Putin's mistress than he seems to be copying the French president's behaviour quite well... I doubt they meant that though. I don't usually watch these things but they seem to be becoming an event in the event, or maybe I'm getting old.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Well that's one interpretation, although I'm guessing Vlad wasn't the artistic director.
Al Evans on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I also noticed that one of the hostesses leading them around was made to wear a long frock with no slit, just one from the whole world of nations, the rest wore uniform short white skirts with a slit up. I can't remember who it was but obviously a muslim country, I'm surprised the Russians allowed then to get away with it.
The New NickB - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> One point I'm wondering if the press will report is the Olympic president's speech when he told off those governments who didn't give their athlete's their full support, ie. those who had boycotted the ceremony for political reasons.

You seem to have missed the part in his speech where he made a fairly pointed critisism of the hosts regarding discrimination.

To be honest, I thought the ceremony was pretty dull, but generally they are.
John2 - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I don't think turning up at his mistress's apartment on the back of a scooter would be Putin's style - he'd be more likely to turn up bare-chested at the helm of a Harley Davidson.
Bruce Hooker - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> You seem to have missed the part in his speech where he made a fairly pointed critisism of the hosts regarding discrimination.

Pointed at who? I, and the commentators on the telly, thought he made a clear standard Olympic speech about keeping politics out of sport and how warfare and squabbles should be put aside for the period of the games - that was what the original games were about, wasn't it, all those Greek city states stopped killing each other a week or two?

Obviously it's possible to read into this sort of speech what you want but the childish absence of some leaders, Obama, and his new French poodle, for example was clearly criticised. I don't know if Cameron was there, Merkel wasn't but I couldn't see anything on the BBC about Cameron boycotting the ceremony, maybe he just forgot to go?

The speech praised the organisation of the games, the thousands of unpaid volunteers and the Russian government for 7 years of effort - clearly the Olympic committee sees nothing wrong with spending a lot of money on the games and he wished the local population well when the facilities would be used by in the years to come... a long way from the nit-picking of the Western press.

I don't think homosexuality is high on the list of the concerns of the committee, it didn't worry the ancient Greeks after all. It seems too me an obviously organised campaign by the enemies of Russia, ie. us, the Western world, who are desperately trying to prevent the obvious progress of Russia and it's friends by any means they can think of... the biggest state in the world along with the most populous doesn't please the crew-cut crowd.
The New NickB - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I suggest you go and listen to it again.
Bruce Hooker - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

I heard it well enough the first time thank you, it wasn't exactly mind blowingly interesting.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Apparently on Russian TV all 5 snowflakes opened perfectly...
dek - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity)
>
> Apparently on Russian TV all 5 snowflakes opened perfectly...

I heard one was too scared to 'Come out'....
The New NickB - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> I heard it well enough the first time thank you, it wasn't exactly mind blowingly interesting.

It obviously sent you to sleep when he was very clearly explaining the anti discriminationary aspects of the Olympic Charter.
Bruce Hooker - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> It obviously sent you to sleep when he was very clearly explaining the anti discriminationary aspects of the Olympic Charter.

I heard that, and the rest, all standard Olympic stuff, it's a pity that all our glorious leaders didn't hear it at the ceremony directly, or had heard it before they decided to snub the Russian people. That's discrimination too. It's nothing new though, at the time of the Great game Britain was fed a diet of anti-Russian propaganda for the same political reasons they are today. Naturally there's no reason for the British, French or Russian peoples to dislike each other so those who wish to set these peoples against each other have to encourage them. The present episode lacks sophistication but appears to work on many.
The New NickB - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Get a f*cking grip!

By the way, you do realise that we sent a senior royal to Sochi, an Olympian and IOC member to boot.
Post edited at 19:50
graeme jackson - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I thought the ceremony was excellent. I did however feel a bit sorry for all the folk in the stadium when the fireworks went off - they'd not have seen them at all.
Bruce Hooker - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> Get a f*cking grip!

Stop making lewd suggestions, I'm past that sort of thing anyway.

> By the way, you do realise that we sent a senior royal to Sochi, an Olympian and IOC member to boot.

I couldn't see who was sent on the BBC, the point that wasn't missed is that Cameron, like Merkel and Hollande all followed Obama' lead, like the good little poodles they are... sometimes I can understand the Scots getting fed up with such gutless muppets in charge, all fairly nauseating.
The New NickB - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Obama didn't attend the London Olympics either you blithering idiot.
Redacted - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:
wow !
Watch yourself there that's a red card and rather nasty too but i'm sure you will rescind it in good spirit,or at least hope that Bruce takes it that way.
Post edited at 21:44
The New NickB - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

I take that as a compliment from you Shona!
Bruce Hooker - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:
> Obama didn't attend the London Olympics either you blithering idiot.

No need for him to show any respect for his poodles, is there?

PS. Being offensive doesn't lend weight to your arguments, especially when done with so little humour. Lighten up a bit.
Post edited at 22:29
Redacted - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

Aye the voice of experience right enough :)
The New NickB - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It is a problem with this medium, you cannot see how much I am laughing at you (the pair of you, just in case you felt left out Shona).
Post edited at 01:08
Jim C - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Just caught it. It's on repeat on 301 just about to start, but the presenter is doing my head in...

Sound down titles on ?
Jim C - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to John2:
> The BBC commentators were making much of the fact that the rhythmic gymnast who was part of the team that lit the flame did not really justify her presence in that team by her Olympic achievements, but is rumoured to be Putin's current squeeze.

Hang on, was there not some talk on here of of him being gay ?
So I guess it was him that started the rumour to cover it up.

I take if all back-
(are the KGB really listening in, as my wife says?)


Post edited at 02:12
Bruce Hooker - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> It is a problem with this medium, you cannot see how much I am laughing at you (the pair of you, just in case you felt left out Shona).

Didn't your Mummy ever tell you it's rude to laugh at people?

I don't quite see what you are getting all in a tizz over anyway, is it simply that you want me to see in the man's speech what you wanted to see? If so you are wasting your time as it was deliberately vague and diplomatic to appease rather than ruffle, but all the same a fairly pointed rebuke against those who he saw as forgetting the spirit of Olympics, that it's a time to drop conflicts between nations and concentrate on bringing people together in sport... nothing to get too excited about.

What I find disagreeable is that clearly the Russian people have to put a lot of effort and money into making these games a success, many have given their time without pay as the man said in his speech too. They have come out of a difficult period and now feel that they have turned the tide and can look forward to regaining their position at home and in the world. They have thrown aside Stalinism and adopted what the Western world wanted them to adopt - capitalism and democracy - for good and bad but even that is not enough for their critics apparently. What must they do to get the stamp of approval of you and your lookalikes, give up also any semblance of independent thought and policies, buckle under and accept "their place" as the servants of Uncle Sam? That would be asking too much, they have their pride and history, they deserve our respect too as an independent sovereign state. These games, for them, were a demonstration of that and that's what justified the expense.

The Chinese Olympics also had this symbolic importance, a once great nation, reduced to chaos and degradation for two centuries but now pulling through and with a somewhat naïve desire to show they were on their back to finding their place in the world. Something to laugh about?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

It does amuse me that people getting in a lather about gay rights in Russia, which is essentially a question of irrational hatred, spout hatred toward a nation of 140 million different people. Quite astounding.

The level of sniping among western politicians, public and especially media toward Russia and in particular the Sochi Olympics seems to be a relic of the Cold War.
dek - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Anyhoo.... We gotta medal!!Jenny Jones Ladies snowboard Slopestyle, a thing of beauty to watch! Brilliant!
In reply to dek:

Yep, just seen it! First British medal on snow, if you exclude Baxter.
dek - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> Yep, just seen it! First British medal on snow, if you exclude Baxter.

Some seriously 'Big Air' going on there! Great camera work too!
Bruce Hooker - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> It does amuse me that people getting in a lather about gay rights in Russia,

I haven't heard them saying much about the football planned for Qatar, I'm not sure how well gay rights are catered for there, they certainly don't seem too keen on women's rights and are doing a good job financing Al Qaeda & Co in Syria and elsewhere. Could there be a slight whiff of double standards in the air?
Timmd on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> I don't think homosexuality is high on the list of the concerns of the committee, it didn't worry the ancient Greeks after all. It seems too me an obviously organised campaign by the enemies of Russia, ie. us, the Western world, who are desperately trying to prevent the obvious progress of Russia and it's friends by any means they can think of... the biggest state in the world along with the most populous doesn't please the crew-cut crowd.

Yeah, that's what it 'obviously' is??

You not being a fan of gay pride marches because they shove it down your throat would have nothing to do with your opinion...
Post edited at 14:34
In reply to Timmd:


> You not being a fan of gay pride marches because they shove it down your throat would have nothing to do with your opinion...

Deliberate pun?
Timmd on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

No, it's his own words, surprisingly. Sorry if this starts a spat which gets your thread moved to Down The Pub.

I can delete it if you like...
In reply to Timmd:

All part of the debate.)))
Timmd on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
I'm not sure if there's much to debate to be honest.

He posted that opinion years ago in a thread called 'Why don't People Like Gays?' started by a poster called Innes (at the time) who no longer posts.

It just rather annoyed me to see the rights of GLTBs being raised called part of a conspiracy.
Post edited at 14:57
Timmd on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Speaking out against GLTB rights, and having some effect, would only undermine Russia if these rights being squashed was in some way essential to the progress of Russia, but since it's not, and with Russia/Putin having a very simple way of not giving other countries a reason to be critical in connection with GLTB rights, in changing the laws he's passed, which would be entirely harmless for Russia, it makes no sense at all to suggest that raising GLTB rights is a way of harming the progress of Russia, or is a way of trying to.

At a stroke Putin could remove this means for other countries to be critical of Russia and himself, with no ill effect on Russia's power on the world stage. It would actually improve Russia standing internationally.
Post edited at 15:33
In reply to Timmd:

I don't think the anti-gay law is designed to enhance Russia's position abroad; it's designed to win votes from the God-squadders, in what's rather religious country.

I guess Putin either underestimated foreign opposition and its effect on the Olympics or he calculated that it was worth it and he doesn't care.

I will be interested to see if the current interest in gay rights is maintained past the Olympics, and whether the same people making noises now will be heading to the Middle East anytime soon to campaign. I would also be interested to know that if it wasn't for the gay rights issue, whether the western media would be campaigning about the wearing of fur hats or drilling for oil in the arctic - in short, would they find any reason to be anti-Russia?
Redacted - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> It is a problem with this medium, you cannot see how much I am laughing at you (the pair of you, just in case you felt left out Shona).

Aw that's nice... hugs and xxxxx's
Douglas Griffin - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> bleating some negative historical nonsense when they got to the Soviet era,the greatest society the world has ever known.

Out of interest, did you ever visit the USSR?
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Indeed. I know a few people who would disagree, and they lived there.
Bruce Hooker - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

I don't think it is as simple as that, the percentage of Russians today who regret the passing of the USSR and look back on that period as the good old days is quite high - I heard it mentioned in the commentary during the opening ceremony by someone who clearly didn't agree himself. He said it in explanation for the long part of the spectacle which dwelt on the Soviet period in a clearly positive way... as it did on the Czarist period too to be honest. The pundit, a Russian himself, explained this as being Putin trying to play up to this sizeable chunk of Russian society to retain their support.
Bruce Hooker - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Here we are, an article from 5 years back which puts the figure at 60%

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2009/1223/Why-nearly-60-percent-of-Russians-deeply-regret-the-...

There are certainly more up to date figures to be found, this was the first on the list google came up with.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

It's called nostalgia. One of my Ukrainian friend's says that her mum is always harking back to the days of the USSR, but can't actually give a single reason why it was better.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Tsarist*
Cardi - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Must say, this statement hasn't enhanced my perception of snowboarders -

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/26056289

"We don't even have mountains in our country but this shows anyone can make it happen."
Bruce Hooker - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

That's nostalgia for you. The article I linked says at the end that this harking back doesn't mean they want to change back, but explains why they are not so worried about Putin being heavy handed - they appreciate the stability he has brought and are willing to overlook some of the things that the chattering classes in the West pretend to be so upset about. It's their country after all.
Douglas Griffin - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Don't disagree with any of that; apart from what I've read, I've seen first-hand some of the changes in Moscow and Leningrad/St Petersburg (was first there in 1988 and have been several times since 1991).

I just found the claim that the Soviet era produced "the greatest society the world has ever known" to be a bit, well, surprising.
Bruce Hooker - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

> I just found the claim that the Soviet era produced "the greatest society the world has ever known" to be a bit, well, surprising.

I don't think it was me who said that. I'd say the Russian Revolution was one of the most important historical events of the 20th century, but that's not quite the same. I also think the intention was good, they achieved an awful lot of good things and the old regime was nothing to regret, but that's not quite the same either :-)
Douglas Griffin - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

No, it was 'Redacted' who said that - that's who I was originally replying to.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Redacted - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

No i have never been to Moscow or St. Petersburg but i would love to one day,i do have many Russian friends in and around Glasgow though.
Now the USSR was not perfect in many ways no one is saying that and i'm not going to go into a big history lesson either, you will be relieved to hear.So i'll make it brief,they had the most egalitarian and progressive society the world had ever known.
Free houses/no homelessness,no unemployment,free healthcare,free education to any level you wanted,1/20 the crime rate of the West,no exploitation,no working to make others rich,no rich !no ghettoisation of the poor,full equal rights and pay for women way before the West,no perpetual foreign invasions and genocides to bolster the capitalist economies,all of these things and many more built a society where the workers were free of the terrible perpetual existential problems which we in the capitalist system face.People felt they were all working together for one another as a society,not as individuals,not selfish and greedy but sharing cooperating,this among many other things lead to a more balanced and cohesive society.
I have written this very quickly so haven't gone into any detail about the above but i can go into meticulous detail.No doubt i will have missed out many other positives,iv'e been in numerous debates on here through the years about the USSR and the former Eastern Bloc,informing many people about things they knew nothing of.

God if it was still here i would be in the USSR now !
Rob Exile Ward on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

Ah, bless.
nufkin - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> People felt they were all working together for one another as a society,not as individuals,not selfish and greedy but sharing cooperating,this among many other things lead to a more balanced and cohesive society

Maybe. But if they didn't/weren't allowed to know any different it doesn't have the same value
Redacted - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to nufkin:
Sorry but that is not quite right,everyone was only to well aware of how things were in the West and what the consequences of that were.That is the precise reason why they were working for a better society.
Post edited at 23:11
nufkin - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> everyone was only to well aware of how things were in the West and what the consequences of that were

How did they come to be aware of how things were in 'the West'?
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to nufkin:

They were taught.sorry so short an answer but must dash off to work.

Reply Douglas-

Being a Commie,history,theory etc is my business as is the history of capitalism which i consider myself to be pretty knowledgable about.
My other half is from Communist Czechoslovakia and i am over there all the time with his family and friends as well as knowing others who are members of the Young Czech Communists.My Granmother was from the DDR,so i have some links to there as well as having Polish and Hungarian pals in Scotland,and pals in the CPB.
Fat Bumbly2 - on 11 Feb 2014
Back to the ceremony - they could not help showing off the size of their novelty condoms.
Sir Chasm - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted: "Free houses/no homelessness,no unemployment,free healthcare,free education to any level you wanted,1/20 the crime rate of the West,no exploitation,no working to make others rich,no rich !no ghettoisation of the poor,full equal rights and pay for women way before the West,no perpetual foreign invasions and genocides to bolster the capitalist economies,all of these things and many more built a society where the workers were free of the terrible perpetual existential problems which we in the capitalist system face."

They couldn't sustain it though, could they? All the fear and the intimidation wasn't enough to persuade people to remain communist. As ideologies go it was a fairly short lived,unsuccessful one.

"God if it was still here i would be in the USSR now !"

Aye, as a guard in one of the gulags.
Rob Exile Ward on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:

That's all made up, the camps in Siberia were training camps for future Winter Olympians. Idiots like Solzhenitzn just didn't get it.

And all Beria's lady friends were enthusiastic partners, even if some of them were underage and did end up buried in his back garden.

Very hard to refute ???'s comment: 'we may not be perfect, but we never had to build a wall to keep people in.'
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> They couldn't sustain it though, could they? All the fear and the intimidation wasn't enough to persuade people to remain communist. As ideologies go it was a fairly short lived,unsuccessful one.

Ok,tell me how it wasn't sustained and while you are at it tell me what happened in 1991,as well as 1989 and why it happened,since you can come to such ridiculous conclusions.
tony on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Ok,tell me how it wasn't sustained and while you are at it tell me what happened in 1991,as well as 1989 and why it happened,since you can come to such ridiculous conclusions.

Of course it wasn't sustained. If it had been sustained it would still be going. It wasn't sustained because people decided that it wasn't very good and wasn't delivering a lifestyle they aspired to.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Beria's crimes came to light at his trial,he was a nasty piece of work and no mistake i don't believe anyone would argue any differently.
Prison camps were rather popular at the time and the Bolsheviks imprisoned in the Tsarist Siberian camps duly returned the favour.Don't forget the British had camps and gulags all over the world Rob.

> we never had to build a wall to keep people in.

Do you think the millions of black slaves that made this little island what it is went to their deaths of their free will Robby ....

bless !
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to tony:

Let's get this straight i listed attributes of the Soviet system,he said they couldn't sustain them but they did sustain them right up until Gorbachev started his Perestroika and everything went downhill.

It is much more complicated than the simplistic way you put it Tony and there are many reasons for this.

Tell me exactly what and when you are talking about ?
tony on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Tell me exactly what and when you are talking about ?

The fact that the people didn't like it.
Sir Chasm - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Ok,tell me how it wasn't sustained and while you are at it tell me what happened in 1991,as well as 1989 and why it happened,since you can come to such ridiculous conclusions.

It ended, Shona. It lasted a mere 70 years (70 years of repression). People didn't want it. And it's not coming back. Sorry sweetie.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to tony:

> The fact that the people didn't like it.

Who the hell didn't like it ? And how do you know ?
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:
People did want it but it was up against the most evil nations in history, who committed genocide and endless war as well as industrial slavery and exploitation for 300 and more years to make and keep themselves rich.Thats your proud history of your gangsterism sorry capitalism kid.

Dripping with blood.
Post edited at 17:45
Timmd on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:
In Poland they collectively decided they'd had enough of being part of the communist block of countries.

There are underground activists who are still having health problems as a result of the beatings they were given by the authorities, the more high profile activists who were known outside of Poland weren't beaten as much, because that would have been known about and drawn criticism in other countries, but for the less high profile members of the underground movement against communism in Poland, some of them are still having kidney problems as a result of their beatings.

Communism ended in Poland because people had had enough.
Post edited at 17:50
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Timmd:
Poland i don't know too much about to be honest,it isn't one of the countries i specialize in.

Can you show me where you get the actual figures to back this up-

> because people had had enough.

Though my Polish friends were happier they tell me when they had industry and work in their country before that massive disappointment Lech Walesa took over,then everything was ruined and so was their country,you'll notice the millions of Poles who left.
I wonder if they would have rather stayed in their own country,i think they would.The Poles i know speak fondly of Communist times and one told me it could never be that good again.
Post edited at 18:06
off-duty - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:


> God if it was still here i would be in the USSR now !

Hmm...

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/nov/09/news/mn-51910
Sir Chasm - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> People did want it but it was up against the most evil nations in history, who committed genocide and endless war as well as industrial slavery and exploitation for 300 and more years to make and keep themselves rich.Thats your proud history of your gangsterism sorry capitalism kid.

> Dripping with blood.

Oh aye, people wanted it so much that they built a wall across Berlin to keep out the evil West.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to off-duty:
'There is reason to believe'
Oh but surprise surprise ! No actual evidence of hundreds of deaths so as usual it is all just speculation of the worst kind by the Rich US press,ie.Rabid anti-Communists.Don't worry though because you can pick up any Western Soviet history and it's full of rubbish like this-

'purges, which also took the lives of several million Soviet citizens.'

It's exaggerated anti-Communist rubbish and it can be proved.There were arrests and imprisonments as well as 'some' executions but these numbers are plucked out of thin air by the anti-Communist Western intelligence services and their authors,like Conquest and Rommel.

The Soviet Union was under deadly threat at these dark times by the capitalist maniacs in Germany and Japan,as well as the ancient regimes of the Western Imperialists who swore to crush Bolshevism and had attempted to from it's birth onwards.
The workers state is the enemy of the rich in the West,the No1 enemy as
demonstrated by all the Communists they have happily slaughtered.
Post edited at 18:40
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> Oh aye, people wanted it so much that they built a wall across Berlin to keep out the evil West.

Do you want a wee history lesson about the Berlin wall rather than spouting off uneducated ignorant rubbish ?You may learn something for once although knowing how talking to you is like talking to a wall i doubt it very much but i am willing to teach.
I will need your full attention for a while though.
Post edited at 18:46
dek - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

Comrade May-Ree Doll..as the apparatchik who told us the Former GDR Police state, was a 'Workers Paradise' we ,look forward to more of your stale, 50 yrs old Propaganda bollocks.



Sir Chasm - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted: Teach me, teach me! If you can fit it in before your next incarnation, you lying wee tease.

Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:
First,where did i lie ?
What's the point in talking to silly little children ?
Post edited at 19:05
Douglas Griffin - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> purges, which also took the lives of several million Soviet citizens... exaggerated anti-Communist rubbish and it can be proved... there were arrests and imprisonments as well as 'some' executions but these numbers are plucked out of thin air.

I thought the Soviet Archives themselves put the number of executions in excess of 600,000 for 1937-38 alone? Conquest thinks the true figure is much higher than that - perhaps 2.5 times higher.

On the basis of what I've read (by authors like Robert Conquest, Robert Service, Dmitri Volkogonov, Anne Applebaum, Nadezhda Mandelstam, Vassily Grossman), I've got to say that I'd consider downplaying the extent of the crimes committed during the Yezhovshchina to be on a par with Holocaust denial.

Prepared to revise that opinion if you can point me at some sources that show that the above figures are out by orders of magnitude.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Ok let's get this holocaust denial rubbish that you have just spouted out of the way first.
Did i attempt to downplay the extent of the crimes or the wild exaggerations put forth by Western intelligence agents like Conquest,rabid anti-communists like Figes and Service or their friends who own the Western press ?
In reply to Redacted:

Douglas quoted Vassily Grossman - you should read his "Life and Fate" to get a real feel for what life was like under the authoritarianism of communism.
Douglas Griffin - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Did i attempt to downplay the extent of the crimes or the wild exaggerations put forth by Western intelligence agents like Conquest,rabid anti-communists like Figes and Service or their friends who own the Western press?

OK, here's what you said:

> 'purges, which also took the lives of several million Soviet citizens. 'It's exaggerated anti-Communist rubbish and it can be proved. There were arrests and imprisonments as well as 'some' executions but these numbers are plucked out of thin air by the anti-Communist Western intelligence services and their authors,like Conquest and Rommel.

So, yes - that's exactly what you did. Pretty much verbatim.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:
Now you thought the Soviet archives put the number etc etc etc but you are wrong,and Conquest is using an old trick.
From achieve evidence released by the vehement anti-Communist and traitor Yeltsin and his government,total death sentences for prisoners and those who were free from 1921-1953 was between 775,866 and 786,098(source: Victims of the Soviet penal system in the pre-war years:A first approach on the basis of archival evidence)
+
12,733 admitted excecutions during the foreign interventionist/imperialist war,this figure could be as much as 40,000 though.

So it would appear to be 800,000 in total for the 1921-1953 period but this is not so.

Vinton in the Katyn documents :politics and history has evidence that execution rates for sentences passed in 1940 were 60% of the total with many being refused or revoked.681,692 of the 780,000 or so death sentences were passed in 37-38,when paranoia about subversion reached it's peak, when the Nazis made a pact with the Japanese that was specifically directed at the USSR.This as well as the formation of the fourth int. and illegal advocacy of overthrowing the Soviets regime from inside.
Stalin set a cap of 72,950 death penalties for a 1937 special operation to fight internal enemies this was carried out by thev Troikas.They requested that the amount of prisoner transport should be doubled in 1938 so if that was the case evn though Stalin realized excesses had been made and revoked many sentences as well as punishing some leaders.The total executed in 37-38 would be under 150,00 even though many of the people sentenced were done so in their absence and may have escaped as well as sentences being removed by higher authorities(Thurston:life and terror in Stalin's Russia)there were also 30,514 death sentences passed by military courts and 4387 by regular courts.

so far from 600,000 or anti-communist propaganda of '2 million' or 'several million' it was really 190,000.

Aggregate deaths(all kind of deaths)in the Soviet Union for this period were actually lower in 1937-38 than in prior years.

If you apply Vinton's rate of 60% to the other 100,000 death sentences passed during the rest of Stalin's time the total number would be 250,000.

even including the 40,000 executed when the 1 million strong army of imperialists came to kill the Russian Communists in 1921.

I'll get more stuff to you tomorrw i'm off to do things nw.

Bear in mind what we did then to please.

night night

oh and don't try the old holocaust denial con on me please,because that's what it is.
Post edited at 21:42
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

> So, yes - that's exactly what you did. Pretty much verbatim.

No tha's rubbish try again.
In reply to Redacted:

What is your view on the Ukrainian famine?

Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Get a grip will you ?

Please do not take periods in time without taking into account everything up to that point and surrounding that point.The why's the what for's ..the reasons !

Yes there was repression and gross injustices against innocent people, no one says there wasn't but look at what was happening see the bigger picture will you ?
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> What is your view on the Ukrainian famine?

I'll deal with that in due course your lesson in Soviet studies has finish for the night,good evening.

Oh and learn this up please because i may ask questions at some future point.
Bruce Hooker - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Figures for "communist" deaths are often exaggerated though, do you remember that book about Mao which everyone was on about a while ago? I tried to read it as I was given it as a present by someone who didn't know its reputation... I just gave up it was so badly written, the authors even managed to contradict themselves from one chapter to the next. The figures they gave want even beyond "the Black Book of Communism". No way of proving them, no attempt really, yet they were quoted as gospel by many on UKC.

It's the same for the USSR under Stalin, he had executed many/most of the original Bolshevik leadership - some of the classic books on communism were written by authors who were judged and executed as traitors - so few people deny what Stalin and his allies got up to but the figures of millions of dead are exaggerations. The Soviet Union itself has condemned them... They were wrong but no more wrong than even more millions killed in two world wars started for no other reason than to decide which country should have access to which markets, raw materials, colonies and so on. Tragic and absurd and criminal but it isn't used to decry a whole economic or political system, it is seen as a very regrettable errors that "won't happen again".

Things like oil and so on drive sane people mad... but coming back to the Olympic ceremony, or rather not, we can watch the games now, they seem to be going alright.
In reply to Redacted:

> I'll deal with that in due course your lesson in Soviet studies has finish for the night,good evening.

> Oh and learn this up please because i may ask questions at some future point.

My lesson in Soviet studies tonight has been from a Ukrainian woman who had many relatives in the gulags, for such heinous crimes as telling a joke about communists at work.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

No you got a lesson from me with solid facts,times were brutal when the USSR was under attack, Stalin was brutal,so was Churchill,so were all the US leaders with their imperialist attacks and genocide.
Stand up against them and you would be imprisoned to don't kid yourself on.
Sir Chasm - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> No you got a lesson from me with solid facts,times were brutal when the USSR was under attack, Stalin was brutal,so was Churchill,so were all the US leaders with their imperialist attacks and genocide.

> Stand up against them and you would be imprisoned to don't kid yourself on.

But they're not facts are they you wee liar? They're an estimate, the lowest figures you can desperately find to attempt to minimise how horrific the purges were. Ellman comes up with a figure of around a million, why don't you go for that figure? After all, life's cheap when it's other people being executed.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:

No you are the liar my figures are official records what is this Ellman's nonsense ?

> life's cheap when it's other people being executed.

Is that what you think kid ?
Sir Chasm - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted: Why don't you correct all the figures herein
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
You laud a murderous regime. Strange.
Redacted - on 11 Feb 2014
In reply to Sir Chasm:

I may do that.

Go check out the quote from George Kennan who was the US attache for the Soviet Union during the cld war and major influence on US policy against the USSR.
He stated that the number executed was only in the tens of thousands.

See-Smith:Economic democracy:The political struggle of the 21st century.

One of your own if ypou don't believe him then go put your head back in the sand, liar boy.
Redacted - on 12 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> My lesson in Soviet studies tonight has been from a Ukrainian woman who had many relatives in the gulags, for such heinous crimes as telling a joke about communists at work.

It's funny because i worked with a guy who went out with a Lithuanian girl and he told me the same story about how his gran maw was getting paid extra pension money for saying she told a joke against the Commies and was jailed. When the real reason was that she was an avid Nazi supporter(anti-semite and anti-communist),but hey she got more in her pension after the capitalists took over.More about this later...
Post edited at 01:13
Timmd on 12 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:
Genuine Question: Do you never think that it's just human nature which is the problem, rather than capitalism, or whatever other frame work people are being nasty to each other in?

I don't quite know how one can be aware of the monitored and austere lives which people lived in East Germany, and think that Communism spreading would have led to some kind of utopia?

With capitalism arguably bring out the worst in people, to do with selfishness, under Communism, wouldn't some kind of population control be needed, to essentially keep human nature in check, to stop it threatening the integrity of the Communist system?

What about the bribes taken by officials for doing their jobs in Communist Russia as a way of earning some extra money, isn't this the same urge to earn extra money which drives capitalism?

I think the current model of capitalism needs to change if we are to live sustainably, but I can't see how people are able to have autonomy under Communism.

Even climbing was state regulated in Communist Russia, with awards being given for different grades, and much less freedom for people to just wander off and do their own thing.

There's an economic model called the Circular Economy, which looks like it's what we need to be moving towards so we don't run out of resources and kill the planet in the process.
Post edited at 02:22
Sir Chasm - on 12 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> I may do that.

> Go check out the quote from George Kennan who was the US attache for the Soviet Union during the cld war and major influence on US policy against the USSR.

> He stated that the number executed was only in the tens of thousands.

> See-Smith:Economic democracy:The political struggle of the 21st century.

> One of your own if ypou don't believe him then go put your head back in the sand, liar boy.

I don't understand, last night you said it was a "fact" that only (only!) 250,000 were executed by your idol. Now it's a "fact" that it was only tens of thousands. Perhaps by this afternoon we'll find out that nobody at all was slaughtered.
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Anyway, to get back on track, the Olympics are fantastic; I'm absolutely loving them.
Redacted - on 13 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Eh just back on here after the other night and i've just realized i hijacked your smashing wee thread of which i am terribly sorry,i really mean that Subby ok ?

Ps. Tim open a new thread on OB about the GDR and i'll tell you all about it.
In reply to Redacted:

Nichevo)))
Redacted - on 13 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Spaciba !

Must add that all executions were of subversives,terrorists,bandits and those who engaged in war against the Soviet peoples(as even that gratuitous liar and propagandist Conquest will admit).Remember,the Russian civil war and all it's attendant horrors and famine would never have happened without extensive British armaments as well as our controlling and witholding of food supplies that would kill millions by starvation in 1918-1922.As the rich farmers murdered thousands of Soviet tax collectors sent out to the farms to obtain food for the cities(pipes 1993:Russia under the Bolsheviks)the UK embargo and military invasion and the combined imperialist armies of genocide,slavery and war.Stalin's collectivisation was a forced reaction to another British threat of invasion in 1927.
Post edited at 23:27
Redacted - on 13 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Indeed the same rich farmers were using the same British weaponry they used in the civil war/foreign imperialist invasion as they did in the 1930's.
dek - on 14 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Indeed the same rich farmers were using the same British weaponry they used in the civil war/foreign imperialist invasion as they did in the 1930's.

Guilty by association Mary Doll?......100million AK47s later. And the Hero of Socialist Labour Gold medal, for the weapon that's killed more people than any other gun in history. You gotta love the brand.
Redacted - on 14 Feb 2014
In reply to dek:

Does it compare to your capitalist bombs and their toll sweetheart ?
sorry i'm rather tired i've been up since 5 am and will get back to u with a better answer after a sleep.
John Rushby - on 14 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

For all your posturing, you do f*ck all for the environment. I mean, your mates did a cracking job with the Aral Sea.

So, aside from fighting the man from a capitalist pig dog keyboard and OS, what will you do to sort out the f*cked up climate ?
dek - on 14 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Does it compare to your capitalist bombs and their toll sweetheart ?
No Doll, 'YOUR' weapon of choice has slaughtered many more.
> sorry i'm rather tired i've been up since 5 am and will get back to u with a better answer after a sleep.
Awwww! See what happens when you work too many hours... You've deprived a comrade of a job.
dek - on 14 Feb 2014
In reply to John Rushby:

Mary Doll is still fighting the Cold War, makes that last Jap soldier to surrender, look like a part timer. :-)

Who's gonna tell her, the Beatles have split up?
Redacted - on 15 Feb 2014
In reply to John Rushby:

How do you know what i don environmentally ?oh you don't but you thought you would say i don't do anything wtf ?

Aral Sea ? Chernobyl ?Brazilian rainforests ?Fukushima ?Nevada desert ?Exxon Valdez ? USA'Rainbow herbicides' destruction in Vietnam ?Bikini Atoll ? etc and what ?
Redacted - on 15 Feb 2014
In reply to dek:
> No Doll, 'YOUR' weapon of choice has slaughtered many more.

Prove this and do it well Dek otherwise i will shut you up,like i always do :)
> Awwww! See what happens when you work too many hours... You've deprived a comrade of a job.

No i must work these hours,so As always you are wrong,think i may start to call you Mr Wrong from now on.

Anyway come on Russia in the ice hockey,get it right up these yanks !
In reply to Redacted:

Been the best team but now 2-1 down.

I hadn't realised what an ace game ice hockey is!
Douglas Griffin - on 15 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

2-2! :-)
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Yes!
felt - on 15 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Fabulous shootout! TJ!
Redacted - on 16 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

hahaha !

Did you see the ladies snowboard cross 2nd semi-final there ?when 3 of the lassies crossed the finishing line on their bums hahaha !Brilliant !
Fantastic event,pity about Gillings not making it to the final for the team GB though :(
C'mon the wee Czech Samkova for gold !
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I love the snowboarding commentators - "How did he land that! He's a cat disguised in human skin!", along with lots of "OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

Great enthusiasm)

In reply to Redacted:

Just started watching it - it's a fantastic sport.
In reply to Redacted:

> hahaha !

> Did you see the ladies snowboard cross 2nd semi-final there ?when 3 of the lassies crossed the finishing line on their bums hahaha !Brilliant !

> Fantastic event,pity about Gillings not making it to the final for the team GB though :(

> C'mon the wee Czech Samkova for gold !

She did it!
Redacted - on 16 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Yeeeees !She won by a mile !
Redacted - on 16 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

yeah i'm loving it too it's very exciting with so many falls and do you see the size of those jumps ? They are huge !what about the yankie lassie well in the lead in 2nd semi and then she fell ?aw !ahem !
Good to see the Czechs get a gold though i wonder if her lucky moustache helped ? Nutty snowboarders.
nufkin - on 16 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I love the snowboarding commentators - "How did he land that! He's a cat disguised in human skin!"

Mostly I think they sound like they've been drinking too much Red Bull, but they do come out with some choice nuggets between the hysteria.
I'm sure I heard one of them say something like 'it's like a sale on potted meat in Lidl' about this morning's snowboarding
In reply to nufkin:

Ha! When the director hadn't covered some important action, one of them said "When you go to the zoo and the lions are sleeping, you go and see the penguins!"

I do like their enthusiasm.
Tobes on 16 Feb 2014
In reply to nufkin:

Last comment I recall from the snowboard commentators was "he's got no business landing that!"

It's like they've got those two from Phone Shop doing the commentating, brilliant.
In reply to Tobes:

"Couldn't have gone faster if he'd been wearing a bacon suit being chased by a pack of jackals!"
Postmanpat on 18 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> Good to see the Czechs get a gold though i wonder if her lucky moustache helped ? Nutty snowboarders.

Shona babe, whilst you're allowed on here, any chance of an answer to my question about the number of prisoners in crime free Czechoslovakia pre the break up? You know, the question I've been asking you on and off for about three years to which you promise an answer to that never comes?
Redacted - on 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I'm crying now,so beautiful.
Redacted - on 23 Feb 2014
dek - on 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Redacted:

> I'm crying now,so beautiful.

Aww! Komrade Mary Doll...
I've just come in, who won the Ice Hockey final?
Redacted - on 23 Feb 2014
In reply to dek:

Canada i think.

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