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I mean, really?
In reply to crayefish:
Well yes, he did. But then the reason folk ask about stuff is they don't know.
> Perhaps the OP meant in light of the current avalanche/snow conditions?
Well yes, he did. But then the reason folk ask about stuff is they don't know.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Get yourself an avalanche poodle.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=75555
Get yourself an avalanche poodle.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=75555
In reply to xplorer:
http://www.sais.gov.uk/
Every forecast for every area for several weeks has stated unambiguously that gullies are death-draps in the current heavy snow-conditions. Would you disagree?
http://www.sais.gov.uk/
Every forecast for every area for several weeks has stated unambiguously that gullies are death-draps in the current heavy snow-conditions. Would you disagree?
In reply to Jamie B:
My guess is that the easier gullies draw relative beginners, who don't necessarily think about the avalanche risk as much.
My guess is that the easier gullies draw relative beginners, who don't necessarily think about the avalanche risk as much.
In reply to Jamie B:
Mind you, Jamie, it's not just gullies, is it? From the pictures I've seen of Sneachda at the moment, there are *no* routes on Aladdin's or the Mess that I'd want to be within 250m of. The cornice is continuous, right along the rim of the plateau, or at least it was the last time I looked--might have fallen off by now, of course. Everything north-facing in Sneachda is a 'mare right now.
Mind you, Jamie, it's not just gullies, is it? From the pictures I've seen of Sneachda at the moment, there are *no* routes on Aladdin's or the Mess that I'd want to be within 250m of. The cornice is continuous, right along the rim of the plateau, or at least it was the last time I looked--might have fallen off by now, of course. Everything north-facing in Sneachda is a 'mare right now.
I am surprised more by people who are looking at IV and V yet do not bother checking SAIS - my friend met some folk who looked fairly experienced in SCNL who were aiming for some V when the full corrie was in the high grade. He asked them if they had checked the SAIS and they said no. He went a plod up the ridge but doesn't know if they carried out their death trap. Is this inexperience of sheer ignorance of the danger?
I noticed during the BMC meet as well, while some of the climbers were on steep mixed ground they were covering very dodgy "high" ground to reach the foot of the crags? Again why? Europeans who have paid a lot of money for a trip? I am not really condemning the people - just trying to understand the logic in taking some extreme risks.
I noticed during the BMC meet as well, while some of the climbers were on steep mixed ground they were covering very dodgy "high" ground to reach the foot of the crags? Again why? Europeans who have paid a lot of money for a trip? I am not really condemning the people - just trying to understand the logic in taking some extreme risks.
In reply to Milesy:
Unless you were there how do you know what it was actually like on the ground...
Unless you were there how do you know what it was actually like on the ground...
In reply to milesy: 'extreme risk'....... were you in the corrie on the days you are refering to? I think you are somewhat exaggerating the conditions on the given days (winter meet week). I personally was comfortable with the level of risk i exposed both myself and my guest to.
Andy
Andy
In reply to andyinglis:
I was skiing on Glas Maol today. There is a LOT of snow, more than I've ever seen up there--most of the lift-poles are over half buried. I was on the Black off the Glas Maol poma, whatever that's called--a steep north-facing slope, anyway, and I was edging sideways under a cornice too. (Because it was too steep to turn...)
If you are a literalist about SAIS and don't allow for local variations, you'd expect this to be death-trap terrain right now. But I was perfectly comfortable with it, and so were the dozens of others who skied it, and so were the Glen Shee ski rangers who opened the area up in the first place.
I was skiing on Glas Maol today. There is a LOT of snow, more than I've ever seen up there--most of the lift-poles are over half buried. I was on the Black off the Glas Maol poma, whatever that's called--a steep north-facing slope, anyway, and I was edging sideways under a cornice too. (Because it was too steep to turn...)
If you are a literalist about SAIS and don't allow for local variations, you'd expect this to be death-trap terrain right now. But I was perfectly comfortable with it, and so were the dozens of others who skied it, and so were the Glen Shee ski rangers who opened the area up in the first place.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Altitude has a large part to play. It does appear as if people look at the worse case but forget to read the info that the higher risk is often at higher elevations. They do need to read the forecast and understand the info rather than just seize on the hazard category and apply that willy nilly.
Oh and the thing with travelling in avalanche hazard terrain is you only ever get positive feedback until - BANG! And a classic heuristic trap is Social Facilatation http://www.summitpost.org/human-factors-in-avalanche-incidents/188636
Altitude has a large part to play. It does appear as if people look at the worse case but forget to read the info that the higher risk is often at higher elevations. They do need to read the forecast and understand the info rather than just seize on the hazard category and apply that willy nilly.
Oh and the thing with travelling in avalanche hazard terrain is you only ever get positive feedback until - BANG! And a classic heuristic trap is Social Facilatation http://www.summitpost.org/human-factors-in-avalanche-incidents/188636
In reply to george mc:
I think there is a deep seated feeling that avalanches only happen on approach slopes. I can see why too.
> Altitude has a large part to play. It does appear as if people look at the worse case but forget to read the info that the higher risk is often at higher elevations. They do need to read the forecast and understand the info rather than just seize on the hazard category and apply that willy nilly.
I think there is a deep seated feeling that avalanches only happen on approach slopes. I can see why too.
In reply to Milesy:
There were a lot of discussions about what is and isn't a sensible objective and a lot of very experienced winter climbers on the meet. On the Ben people were going to certain places but not others and evaluating conditions on the ground, which changed from day to day as the wind scoured some slopes, making them fairly safe, while others avalanched. There were a lot of people climbing almost every day (over 40 teams) but no one got caught in anything. That's saying something.
There were a lot of discussions about what is and isn't a sensible objective and a lot of very experienced winter climbers on the meet. On the Ben people were going to certain places but not others and evaluating conditions on the ground, which changed from day to day as the wind scoured some slopes, making them fairly safe, while others avalanched. There were a lot of people climbing almost every day (over 40 teams) but no one got caught in anything. That's saying something.
In reply to Misha:
"There were a lot of people climbing almost every day (over 40 teams) but no one got caught in anything. That's saying something."
You have to be very careful about what you conclude from the fact that over 40 teams went out and nobody got caught. As George Mc pointed out, you only get positive feedback until you get caught.
It could be that all of those teams accurately evaluated conditions on the ground continuously throughout the day, combined their observations with the snowpack data they'd already gathered and the forecast information and made good route choices at every decision point. That's entirely possible. But it could also be that on at least one occasion, one of those parties was on a potentially fatal avalanche slope and happened not to trigger it. It could be that moving a couple of metres to one side or being a party of 3, rather than 2, would have made a big difference.
We don't know that and certainly can't conclude that there was no hazard.
Having said all that, and mainly in reply to Blizzard, remember that the SAIS forecast is a forecast and if you're Johnny on the spot and can make your own assessment that the slope you're on is safe enough to ascend then why not do that, rather than change your route?
"There were a lot of people climbing almost every day (over 40 teams) but no one got caught in anything. That's saying something."
You have to be very careful about what you conclude from the fact that over 40 teams went out and nobody got caught. As George Mc pointed out, you only get positive feedback until you get caught.
It could be that all of those teams accurately evaluated conditions on the ground continuously throughout the day, combined their observations with the snowpack data they'd already gathered and the forecast information and made good route choices at every decision point. That's entirely possible. But it could also be that on at least one occasion, one of those parties was on a potentially fatal avalanche slope and happened not to trigger it. It could be that moving a couple of metres to one side or being a party of 3, rather than 2, would have made a big difference.
We don't know that and certainly can't conclude that there was no hazard.
Having said all that, and mainly in reply to Blizzard, remember that the SAIS forecast is a forecast and if you're Johnny on the spot and can make your own assessment that the slope you're on is safe enough to ascend then why not do that, rather than change your route?
Half term next week, the slopes are going to be loaded with snow and loaded with plenty climbers, walkers, skiers etc, experienced and inexperienced......let's all help each other, listen to each other and look out for each other.
In reply to AdrianC:
I think one of the biggest dangers with avalanches is what that article that George linked to calls "route hunger" (if I remember rightly). You do have to be capable of reacting to the SAIS forecast, or to what you see in front of you, with "Screw that. It's not happening today".
This is what ski centres are for: death-trap avalanche conditions in Coire an t-Sneachda = waist-deep powder on the White Lady
I think one of the biggest dangers with avalanches is what that article that George linked to calls "route hunger" (if I remember rightly). You do have to be capable of reacting to the SAIS forecast, or to what you see in front of you, with "Screw that. It's not happening today".
This is what ski centres are for: death-trap avalanche conditions in Coire an t-Sneachda = waist-deep powder on the White Lady
In reply to Misha:
I have seen experienced "climbers" make awful mountaineering judgements. There are droves of people graduating from dry tooling and hard rock academy jumping onto VI, this might make them good climbers but it doesn't make experienced mountaineers who haven't spent years and years walking in the hills in winter.
I'm happy knowing that from my central belt home I can back off something and having lost nothing more than half a tank of petrol and half a day of my time. The past has shown that people who have invested more in time and money take bigger risks, or at least downplay those risks.
As said you could easily cross dangerous windslab and not trigger it because you haven't crossed the point of greatest tension or caused the point of greatest tension at a higher or lower point to release. People have gotten away with it for decades and never had a slide yet some poor soul will be the unlucky person who is in a slide their very first time. You might draw a conclusion or experienced vs inexperienced when in reality it has been nothing but utter chaotic dumb luck.
I have seen experienced "climbers" make awful mountaineering judgements. There are droves of people graduating from dry tooling and hard rock academy jumping onto VI, this might make them good climbers but it doesn't make experienced mountaineers who haven't spent years and years walking in the hills in winter.
I'm happy knowing that from my central belt home I can back off something and having lost nothing more than half a tank of petrol and half a day of my time. The past has shown that people who have invested more in time and money take bigger risks, or at least downplay those risks.
As said you could easily cross dangerous windslab and not trigger it because you haven't crossed the point of greatest tension or caused the point of greatest tension at a higher or lower point to release. People have gotten away with it for decades and never had a slide yet some poor soul will be the unlucky person who is in a slide their very first time. You might draw a conclusion or experienced vs inexperienced when in reality it has been nothing but utter chaotic dumb luck.
In reply to JohnnyW:
That we will Johnny.
We'll have to be on our toes and dare I say it, stand our ground when the enthusiastic get a wee bit excited about routes to climb and distances to tab.
Mind, there's some good experienced folks in there now )
That we will Johnny.
We'll have to be on our toes and dare I say it, stand our ground when the enthusiastic get a wee bit excited about routes to climb and distances to tab.
Mind, there's some good experienced folks in there now )
In reply to Milesy:
There are droves of people graduating from dry tooling and hard rock academy jumping onto VI
How do you know this?
> (In reply to Misha)
There are droves of people graduating from dry tooling and hard rock academy jumping onto VI
How do you know this?
In reply to mac fae stirling:
Well apart from seeing the trend towards hard mixed climbing in the last 4 years you can are evidence of it on here. People come on saying I can lead E4 I don't want to be fannying about in grade 1 snow gullies. I seen a couple of climbers in Sneachda top out of a grade V but openly admitted they had only wore crampons twice and weren't sure how to navigate to 1141.
Well apart from seeing the trend towards hard mixed climbing in the last 4 years you can are evidence of it on here. People come on saying I can lead E4 I don't want to be fannying about in grade 1 snow gullies. I seen a couple of climbers in Sneachda top out of a grade V but openly admitted they had only wore crampons twice and weren't sure how to navigate to 1141.
In reply to aultguish:
Well said. The mountains are full of in experienced climbers/walkers and educating these people is a better way than just slamming them on Forums. If somebody is asking about climbing gullies then explain to them why you shouldn't! send them the link for SAIS for starters !
Well said. The mountains are full of in experienced climbers/walkers and educating these people is a better way than just slamming them on Forums. If somebody is asking about climbing gullies then explain to them why you shouldn't! send them the link for SAIS for starters !
In reply to Jamie B:
Sorry, don't usually feel the need to comment on peoples opinions but there are a couple of statements being made in this thread that I feel could do with some clarification:
In reply to Jamie
"SAIS has stated unambiguously that gullies are death-draps in the current heavy snow-conditions."
Sorry Jamie, but this is just not true. No SAIS forecast has made such a statement and your use of the word unambiguosly seems to imply that the SAIS would actually make such a statement. The SAIS forcasts are worded carefully to impart good, accurate information on the general situation on the relevant mountainous areas, and give hill goers a clear indication of where the major hazards are. During the forecast period you mention, many south facing gullies and aspects would have a low avalanche risk. Trying to sensationalise SAIS forecasts detracts from the articulate information they give.
In reply to Tim Chappel
"Mind you, Jamie, it's not just gullies, is it? From the pictures I've seen of Sneachda at the moment, there are *no* routes on Aladdin's or the Mess that I'd want to be within 250m of. The cornice is continuous, right along the rim of the plateau, or at least it was the last time I looked--might have fallen off by now, of course. Everything north-facing in Sneachda is a 'mare right now."
Sorry Tim, but did you draw these conclusions and then make sweeping statements about a whole crag from some pictures you had seen on the Internet? Thats quite an audacious thing to do?
I was working on the Sunday you posted this and had a very safe approach, climb and retreat from Ordinary Route on Alladins Buttress with clients.
In reply to Adrian C
"Having said all that, and mainly in reply to Blizzard, remember that the SAIS forecast is a forecast and if you're Johnny on the spot and can make your own assessment that the slope you're on is safe enough to ascend then why not do that, rather than change your route?"
Well said
Sorry, don't usually feel the need to comment on peoples opinions but there are a couple of statements being made in this thread that I feel could do with some clarification:
In reply to Jamie
"SAIS has stated unambiguously that gullies are death-draps in the current heavy snow-conditions."
Sorry Jamie, but this is just not true. No SAIS forecast has made such a statement and your use of the word unambiguosly seems to imply that the SAIS would actually make such a statement. The SAIS forcasts are worded carefully to impart good, accurate information on the general situation on the relevant mountainous areas, and give hill goers a clear indication of where the major hazards are. During the forecast period you mention, many south facing gullies and aspects would have a low avalanche risk. Trying to sensationalise SAIS forecasts detracts from the articulate information they give.
In reply to Tim Chappel
"Mind you, Jamie, it's not just gullies, is it? From the pictures I've seen of Sneachda at the moment, there are *no* routes on Aladdin's or the Mess that I'd want to be within 250m of. The cornice is continuous, right along the rim of the plateau, or at least it was the last time I looked--might have fallen off by now, of course. Everything north-facing in Sneachda is a 'mare right now."
Sorry Tim, but did you draw these conclusions and then make sweeping statements about a whole crag from some pictures you had seen on the Internet? Thats quite an audacious thing to do?
I was working on the Sunday you posted this and had a very safe approach, climb and retreat from Ordinary Route on Alladins Buttress with clients.
In reply to Adrian C
"Having said all that, and mainly in reply to Blizzard, remember that the SAIS forecast is a forecast and if you're Johnny on the spot and can make your own assessment that the slope you're on is safe enough to ascend then why not do that, rather than change your route?"
Well said
In reply to Removed UserRichard Bentley:
Honest question, Do you not think that even experienced people (and yes dare I say it even guides) can fall into heuristic traps in what Adrian calls "making your assessment"
Guides aren't infallible.
Honest question, Do you not think that even experienced people (and yes dare I say it even guides) can fall into heuristic traps in what Adrian calls "making your assessment"
Guides aren't infallible.
In reply to Removed UserRichard Bentley:
"Sorry"? What are you sorry for? I made it quite clear in my comment that it was a comment made purely on the strength of internet-based information, of the types that we all rely on all the time until we're actually at the venue. I don't think there's a problem there, is there?
I'm glad you and your clients had a safe time.
"Sorry"? What are you sorry for? I made it quite clear in my comment that it was a comment made purely on the strength of internet-based information, of the types that we all rely on all the time until we're actually at the venue. I don't think there's a problem there, is there?
I'm glad you and your clients had a safe time.
Post edited at 21:30
In reply to Milesy:
You are right but what I'm saying is there were a lot of very experienced winter climbers on this particular meet (people who have been at it for decades, some longer than you and I have been alive) and their knowledge and insight were shared to help people make good decisions. I don't want to start an argument and I agree with what you're saying in principle but I do think the original comment about this particular meet was a bit rash and I wanted to offer a different perspective from someone who was actually there.
You are right but what I'm saying is there were a lot of very experienced winter climbers on this particular meet (people who have been at it for decades, some longer than you and I have been alive) and their knowledge and insight were shared to help people make good decisions. I don't want to start an argument and I agree with what you're saying in principle but I do think the original comment about this particular meet was a bit rash and I wanted to offer a different perspective from someone who was actually there.
In reply to Misha:
I don't dispute what you're saying but were all 40 teams digging pits? Or did maybe a few? And the rest assumed their ground was also safe and their route was also safe?
I don't dispute what you're saying but were all 40 teams digging pits? Or did maybe a few? And the rest assumed their ground was also safe and their route was also safe?
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