UKC

Not a bad read if you can ignore the Miley Cyrus twerking links on the right of the page:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1264951/Caesar-terrier-dog-appear...

"When Edward VII died on May 6, 1910, Britain was the most important nation on earth. We possessed the largest empire mankind has ever known, covering a quarter of the world’s land surface and guarded by a vast navy at the peak of its strength.
Despite mounting competition from Germany and the U.S., our economy was still the global leader, buttressed by Britain’s genius for engineering and trade.

Today, in contrast, we are a middle-ranking European country, effectively governed by an unelected bureaucracy in Brussels. Our national finances are on the verge of insolvency. Our Armed Forces are a shadow of their glorious past. Our national identity has been shattered by the twin dogmas of uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism.

It is only in negatives that we lead Europe, such as binge-drinking, violent street crime and family breakdown."

In reply to Morgan Woods:

They really do love being complete and utter scum! I heard something on the radio today about a DM from twenty years ago, a startling low, even by their standards, it read "abortion hope after gay genes detected".

In reply to The New NickB:

They certainly do know how to generate sales, don't they?

In reply to The New NickB:

What bit of the quote above do you consider is untrue? Leaving aside whether it's good or bad to have an empire an such like. It seems to me to be factually correct.

In reply to stroppygob:

Hate sells, shame really, I guess they have studied history, even if some of the contemporary analysis is shonky.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

"Our national identity has been shattered by the twin dogmas of uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism".

Make broad statements that on the surface appear to make sense, put a negative spin on it then attach the blame to whatever minority group trend they want to bash that particular day

Go to pub and listen to 50 something pub bore regurgitate daily mail arguments loudly to anyone who will listen even if the only multiculturism he has ever encountered is having a curry once a week

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

The second to last line would be a good starting point.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

This bit-
"Our Armed Forces are a shadow of their glorious past. Our national identity has been shattered by the twin dogmas of uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism."

I reckon the modern armed forces would beat the old ones in any battle thanks to superior technology. The bit about twin dogmas is just a load of arse. If we hadn't had an empire, we wouldn't have the same "problems" with immigration and multiculturalism. And if the DM think I for one should give up my God given right as an Englishman to enjoy a traditional tikka massala they are vey much mistaken

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Binge drinking and violent street crime...

We're in a far better state than back then. Life expectancy, quality of life..

Yeah apart from that its factually correct...

In reply to IainRUK:


Perhaps the solution is to get the youth drinking gin again instead of those wimpish modern drinks.

In reply to 999thAndy:

The question is not whether our modern-day armed forces would defeat those of Edwardian times. The question is how strong they are relative to the armed forces of the rest of the world.

In reply to dissonance:

I just don't think we are that good at binge drinking, its a bit of a myth that other countries don't.. Germans, Scandanavians and the Poles especially can hold their own with us..

I'd say I see more people absolutely blitzed in an average night out in Germany that I would in the UK, certainly they will keep serving here when I think in the UK they'd refuse to serve.

But the Poles are always good for a beer..

In reply to John2:


But thats to do with development, pace of development.. we were ahead of the curve but other countries will catch up.

In reply to IainRUK:

No, we are declining. Outright numbers in the armed services are falling, as are equipment levels. We no longer have an operational aircraft carrier, and when we do get one it will be several years before it carries any aircraft.

In reply to John2:


The question is neither of those, the question is more to do with our modern army being appropriate for a medium sized modern democracy.

The idea that we had the greatest army in the world in 1910 is clearly pretty silly anyway.

In reply to John2:

Yes but we don't have an empire to rule any more, so we don't need to have the worlds strongest army.

In reply to John2:

of course numbers are declining.
1. You'd hope we'd have less need for soldiers and that world wars were less common..
2. You'd hope technology reduces the need for men at the front line.
3. You'd hope we'd moved on from the strategy of sending 100,000 men over the trenches to get mowed down and replaced by another 100,000...

No chance are we, we are far more advanced than we were in 1910. Find solid indicators that the UK has declined?

Re the aircraft carrier, but we are now in a position to strike almost anywhere in the world from the UK.

In reply to John2:


In which case my question is why does that matter?
jk

In reply to IainRUK:


Genuine question: With what?
jk

In reply to 999thAndy:


Yes, things get a bit easier once you no longer have to be able to kill large numbers of natives if they get too uppity.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

ie we grew up and passed our aggressive, swaggering youth and now dwell in middle age with its associated benefits and disappointments.

In reply to jkarran:

I thought we were striking Iraq from the UK? trying to see.

Maybe its only the B2's which are doing that.

In reply to The New NickB:


Armed Forces isnt just the Army.
Whilst the army has often been weak compared to other powers it was naval power which was the priority.
In some ways the proposals arent that much difference from the past, eg that 1910 army was a small core of 80000 or so professionals backed up by reservists.

In reply to The New NickB:




Maybe, but without a doubt we had the strongest navy. Which is what was needed for force projection over the world's largest empire. Obviously surplus to requirements now, but they could have left us something.

In reply to dissonance:

Damn you.

In reply to jkarran:
All I was doing was replying to 'I reckon the modern armed forces would beat the old ones in any battle thanks to superior technology'. I think it is entirely appropriate that we no longer have an army capable of defeating any other army in the world, as we probably had in Victorian times, but as a matter of history our relative armed power has declined.

In reply to John2:

>. I think it is entirely appropriate that we no longer have an army capable of defeating any other army in the world, as we probably had in Victorian times, but as a matter of history our relative armed power has declined.

How can one compare armed forces between now and then given that we have nuclear weapons? The Edwardians didn't have airpower, now we can destroy a city pretty much anywhere in the world. You might as well say that the Victorians had better cavalry than we did.

In reply to John2:

<note to self>

*Don't forget the smiley in future*


</note>

In reply to IainRUK:


Germans and Poles, for sure. But after working with Scandinavians for 30 years, and living in Norway for 4 years, I'm not sure about their capacity! They tend to go "tilt" very quickly, from apparently sober and semi-reasonable one minute to unconscious the next. On the plus side, they don't seem, mostly, to get very violent with it. Finns seem to hold it better than Norwegians and Swedes, though.

But you missed out Russians! Just back from there, my 9th trip in just over 2 years. And IMO, in the binge-drinking stakes, Russians are absolute kings. It's impossible to even TRY to keep up with them. It just doesn't happen.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

I was thinking of the Danes, I first experienced them in 1996, they were based in Sheffield for the euros and drunk is dry, they were fantastic. Them and the Croats.

Aye, heard the Russians drink, never been. Saw Easyjet fly to Moscow, wished I'd done that now. Would love to go over sometime.

In reply to IainRUK:


well you're gonna have to try harder.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

of course you have already beaten most of them, as it's killing them 15 years earlier than in the UK.

Which reminds me about another thing the mail forgot to tell us about 1910, most people wouldn't see 50.