UKC

My nomination has to go already (and I know it is early in the year) to Senator John Kerry.

'"You just don't in the 21st-Century behave in 19th-Century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext," Mr Kerry told the CBS program Face the Nation.'

Sorry for the delay. It took me a long time to stop laughing. And dry my keyboard.

In reply to andyathome:

No so much naive as outright ignoring what the US has done in recent history.

In reply to Orgsm:

I was sort of guessing that he said what he did because no-one had actually told him what they had done. Otherwise how could he have said that.........?

So 'naive'.

In reply to andyathome:

Possibly another negative and unintended consequence of the Iraq War.

In reply to andyathome:

He's right though. The fact that Dubya did it as well shouldn't be held against him.

Putin is playing a wicked, dangerous game.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


He's winning. Or more likely, has already won.

Even if he invaded the entire of the Ukraine, what would we do?

Previous (stupid) wars have left us unwilling to engage in military conflict even for the right reasons (and those people who say that there are never right reasons have equally simplistic viewpoints as those who charge in first and worry about the consequences later).

Which leaves our usual response. Economic sanctions. Since Russia's economy relies of the export of natural resources, this could be crippling. Except... that Europe (Baltic, central and eastern, plus a large fraction of Germany) is heavily reliant of Russian gas - if we cut off the supply, the lights would go off across Europe. The US would be largely unaffected, due to their current shale gas boom, but they don't have the ports and facilities to ship it to us in anything like the required quantity. I believe LPG terminal facilities in the US (or lack thereof) have been an issue for the EU and fair trade schemes before.

Putin is the last remnant of the Soviet Union; the only difference is that now no one will oppose him, as long as he doesn't move directly against the US or EU, and stays within the former USSR. I don't know what the solution is. The cold war 'solution' would be to move friendly (i.e. US) troops into the remaining part of the Ukraine (with their approval, much less likely these days than when US support was more gratefully accepted against the big bad USSR). The Russians would keep their half and we would maintain the frozen conflict (we still have a few left over today from the last cold war). Somehow this doesn't look likely...

In reply to andyathome:

That is just too outrageous for words...

Seriously USA, sack the Herman Munster lookalike, before the whole world pisses itself laughing at you.

Oops....too late....it's been happening for 50 years now....

In reply to andyathome:




Quite a consistent position for John Kerry, looking at his anti-war history.
I look forward to seeing a similar consistency from certain UKC posters in condemning Russia's actions....

In reply to off-duty:


I am sure they will be very consistent




in supporting Russia's actions.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:



If I've got you right there you are saying that the fact that George W Bush as the President of the USA invaded countries on trumped up excuses should not be held against him. But that Vladimir Putin is playing a 'dangerous, wicked game' by doing the same thing?

I may well be misunderstanding you. Apologies.

In reply to off-duty:



John Kerry is the spokesman for the administration of the nation that has committed more incursions into other nation's sovereign territory post WWII than any other nation on the globe. So I'm not so sure his 'position' is 'consistent'. Unless you contend that he is a rabid pacifist speaking, with conviction, for a nation that hasn't actually lived up to his precepts. I am neither a spokesperson for the US or the Russian administrations so I'm not really in a position to be consistent about their actions, pal.

And just why you assume that there should be a universal condemnation from UKC posters regarding 'Russia's actions' (please specify) is a bit hard to fathom. We haven't even worked out what we think about Nick Clegg.

For what it's worth I'm watching and wondering.

In reply to andyathome:

Different government though.

Has any country a clean history?

I can see why the Russians have intervened, but if the warnings of imminent attacks are true then that's terrible.

In reply to andyathome:


John Kerry has been critical of US involvement in a number of conflicts, from the Vietnam war to Iraq.


What I said was : -
I look forward to seeing a similar consistency from certain UKC posters in condemning Russia's actions....


And laughing as well :- " It took me a long time to stop laughing."

In reply to andyathome:

PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Army & Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Army & Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gassing of captured ship Mayagüez, 28 troops die when copter shot down.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. 241 Marines killed when Shi'a rebel bombs barracks.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple Qaddafi gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war, defending reflagged tankers and shooting down civilian jet.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-91 Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
IRAQ 1991-2003 Bombing, naval No-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south; constant air strikes and naval-enforced economic sanctions
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Troops at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into combat missions in Sulu Archipelago, west of Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines & Army land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels
LIBYA 2011-? Bombing, missiles, command operation NATO coordinates a

In reply to stroppygob:

Some of those, many of them, were crucial to UN led interventions or assistance to the elected governments.

So not all are equivalent to Russia's here.

If they have gone in, at the request of local (I know not national) governments in a peace keeping mission that's different than threatening attacks which may have happened. Hard to know.

In reply to stroppygob:

Do you subscribe to Marxmail or do you just repost whatever google finds you?

In reply to stroppygob:

An impressive list. More impressive still would be if you could narrow it down to the ones in which the justification was trumped up rather than just copy and pasting a list of every US military action you happened to find on a google search.
By trumped up I don't mean "you think it was unjustified" I mean it was in response to no particular threat to US or US allies citizens or national interests. There has been no threat whatsoever to the Russian speaking citizens of the Crimea, the Russian action is simply an opportunist land grab.

In reply to andyathome:



I think you might be confusing John Kerry with Condoleezza Rice?

jk

In reply to andyathome:
"We know where they [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat....I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."

and what was Kerry's view on Iraq?

Check this;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bh1gkEwCQAApqyh.png

In reply to pec:


Sorry, but that's simply not true. They have already been subject to violence by pro-Western mobs and the putsch government in Kiev instead of limiting itself to a holding position while awaiting new elections for a legitimate government has done things like passing a law changing the status of the Russian language in the Ukraine - the language spoken by nearly all Ukrainians and the primary language of a great many. Have Russian speakers done anything worse than what the pro-West Ukrainians have done? If it has even the Western media haven't reported it.

In reply to pec:
If you are really interested there's a book called "Rogue State" which covers all the US military interventions since WW2 IIRC. It's not a very good read being more of a chronological list with details but it shows pretty conclusively that stroppy is telling the truth.

PS. Concerning the Crimea it has been part of Russia for a very long time and was only "given" to Ukraine in 1954 by Khrushchev. Most of the people there see themselves as Russian and a referendum is planned for May of this year which should clarify the situation for any doubters.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


The bill about the Russian language has been vetoed - I agree it appeared to have been a provocative and unnecessary act.
I'm not aware of violence occurring in Crimea, directed at pro-Russian supporters - is that what RT is reporting?
I'm not entirely convinced that even violence against pro-Russian supporters is a particularly good reason to deploy troops in another sovereign country.
When that violence appears to have not even involved any fatalities (unless RT have evidence to the contrary) - then even in the best light that deployment would seem to be premature.

In reply to pec:


'National interests' is an interesting one. I don't doubt that many of those actions were to deal with a threat to national interest. But...I think nations should still be held to account for their actions, including when protecting a national interest.

For example, an oil producing nation taking efforts to cripple the oil production of other nations is entirely acting within the playing field of defending against threats to their national interest.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Its not been part of Russia since 1954! That's 60 years.


In what way was it "given" to Ukraine rather than given to Ukraine? Its part of Ukraine now which is the important point>


So why not wait until then rather than invade now in response to no credible threat to the people there?

In reply to pec:


That's pretty obvious, in a country where crowds led by organised para-military groups of a particularly nasty ilk (extreme right, anti semitics who recently organise a demonstration to celebrate a man famous for these views and collaboration with the German Nazis) have been fighting, and killing, the police and security forces for months, have occupied and burnt to the ground numerous state buildings, including raiding arms stocks, and generally terrorising any who got in their way, and, finally, taken over the government and ousted the lawfully elected President, waiting would not seem like a good idea - possession is 9 tenths of the law in such situations.

Seriously though, how can the Western countries have the nerve to say this after all they have done in recent years - the latest being the French military occupation of huge zones of central Africa? When they bombed Libya or Yugoslavia did the Russians have a say, did they speak of "sanctions" against the "invaders" then, and these military acts were not on their doorsteps and the people they were protecting weren't of the same cultural, linguistic and often national identity as is the case in the Ukraine.