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Tony Benn has died. He was a great politician and a sad loss. He was also very entertaining, I went to one of his "one man shows" and thoroughly enjoyed it.
In reply to icnoble:
What's a great politician? Never encountered one of those. Tony Benn was a run-of-the-mill reformist opportunist just like the rest of them.
What's a great politician? Never encountered one of those. Tony Benn was a run-of-the-mill reformist opportunist just like the rest of them.
In reply to icnoble:
A shame, a man of principle and conviction. A great loss to politics and to the UK. RIP and thank you for your work to improve the UK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26573929
A shame, a man of principle and conviction. A great loss to politics and to the UK. RIP and thank you for your work to improve the UK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26573929
Post edited at 07:42
In reply to Chambers:
Very narrow minded.
> What's a great politician? Never encountered one of those.
Very narrow minded.
In reply to icnoble:
One of the political giants of the 20th Century. Irrespective of your standpoint.
One of the political giants of the 20th Century. Irrespective of your standpoint.
In reply to icnoble:
Incredibly driven politician.
Sad to say but the OP couldn't get his name right (Benn, not Ben), but even worse, the two presenters on BBC Breakfast called him Tony Bear on 3 occasions this morning. Is it so hard?
Incredibly driven politician.
Sad to say but the OP couldn't get his name right (Benn, not Ben), but even worse, the two presenters on BBC Breakfast called him Tony Bear on 3 occasions this morning. Is it so hard?
In reply to Chambers:
He gave up his title to be a labour MP. He was originally a Viscount.
> What's a great politician? Never encountered one of those. Tony Benn was a run-of-the-mill reformist opportunist just like the rest of them.
He gave up his title to be a labour MP. He was originally a Viscount.
In reply to icnoble:
I'm more annoyed about BBC Presenters looking all serious and stern and yet getting his name wrong 3 times in a few minutes!!
I'm more annoyed about BBC Presenters looking all serious and stern and yet getting his name wrong 3 times in a few minutes!!
In reply to icnoble:
A great loss. As others have said a man of principle and conviction, and there's not many of them around theses days.
I disagreed with more or less every word that came out of Tony Benn's mouth, and respected him enormously.
A great loss. As others have said a man of principle and conviction, and there's not many of them around theses days.
I disagreed with more or less every word that came out of Tony Benn's mouth, and respected him enormously.
In reply to icnoble:
Other opinions are available, though now may not be the time.
Perhaps these obituary threads should be reprised when the dust has settled and we can debate his merits more objectively.
Other opinions are available, though now may not be the time.
Perhaps these obituary threads should be reprised when the dust has settled and we can debate his merits more objectively.
In reply to icnoble:
He was in my view one of the more principled politicians from an age when politicians had principles (yes Thatcher too) and a man who I liked immensely
He was in my view one of the more principled politicians from an age when politicians had principles (yes Thatcher too) and a man who I liked immensely
In reply to icnoble:
Benn was the only person I saw survive an interview with Ali G without looking ridiculous. He had absolute conviction and integrity.
Benn was the only person I saw survive an interview with Ali G without looking ridiculous. He had absolute conviction and integrity.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I absolutely agree - but I doubt it will be the case.
In fact, the second post on here was an attack.
I met him a few years ago, the chair of CND (Kate Hudson - my sister-in-law) introduced me to him. Such a great bloke, we chatted for about 15 minutes over a cup of tea. We spoke mainly about the miners strike and his support for it. I have a photo somewhere, must try and find it.
> Other opinions are available, though now may not be the time.
> Perhaps these obituary threads should be reprised when the dust has settled and we can debate his merits more objectively.
I absolutely agree - but I doubt it will be the case.
In fact, the second post on here was an attack.
I met him a few years ago, the chair of CND (Kate Hudson - my sister-in-law) introduced me to him. Such a great bloke, we chatted for about 15 minutes over a cup of tea. We spoke mainly about the miners strike and his support for it. I have a photo somewhere, must try and find it.
Post edited at 08:38
In reply to Greenbanks:
I didn't support much of the politics Anthony Wedgewood Benn espoused, but I did respect the man and his clear and consistent political vision, he was a man of his time. It's something that we lack in much of the modern political players and I don't think we'll ever hear any scurrilous gossip associated with his name. There's plenty our current crop of politicians could learn from him. I'm sad he's passed - he had a long and fulfilled life with a large family around him. A decent good man who's generation is sadly passing.
I didn't support much of the politics Anthony Wedgewood Benn espoused, but I did respect the man and his clear and consistent political vision, he was a man of his time. It's something that we lack in much of the modern political players and I don't think we'll ever hear any scurrilous gossip associated with his name. There's plenty our current crop of politicians could learn from him. I'm sad he's passed - he had a long and fulfilled life with a large family around him. A decent good man who's generation is sadly passing.
In reply to Chambers:
I didn't agree with him generally, but he definitely wasn't run-of-the-mill in any way.
I didn't agree with him generally, but he definitely wasn't run-of-the-mill in any way.
In reply to cander:
Good post. I detested his politics but I admired the man for his integrity. As you say the current bunch and their recent predecessors, in all parties, should learn from him
Good post. I detested his politics but I admired the man for his integrity. As you say the current bunch and their recent predecessors, in all parties, should learn from him
In reply to icnoble:
The world is a poorer place without him.
His speeches at CND rallies at Hyde Park had a profound affect on me as a 16 year old boy.
I never met him but he felt like a true friend.
cheers
Gaz
The world is a poorer place without him.
His speeches at CND rallies at Hyde Park had a profound affect on me as a 16 year old boy.
I never met him but he felt like a true friend.
cheers
Gaz
In reply to Tony the Blade:
Not really, at least not a personal attack; just an attack on politicians generally.
As with Thatcher, a lot of people have strong feelings about Tony Benn, both for and against. I found myself conflicted about him. I couldn't help admiring his apparent convictions but disliked a fair number of the stances he took (eg, pro Sinn Fein). Part of the problem was that he seemed unpatriotic, despite his war record.
A very interesting character, however, and one which history has already treated quite kindly which must say something about the man.
> In fact, the second post on here was an attack.
Not really, at least not a personal attack; just an attack on politicians generally.
As with Thatcher, a lot of people have strong feelings about Tony Benn, both for and against. I found myself conflicted about him. I couldn't help admiring his apparent convictions but disliked a fair number of the stances he took (eg, pro Sinn Fein). Part of the problem was that he seemed unpatriotic, despite his war record.
A very interesting character, however, and one which history has already treated quite kindly which must say something about the man.
In reply to stroppygob:
Agreed; an old-school politician who made many of today's MPs on every side of the house appear as mere apprentices.
I didn't always agree with him, even in the early 1980's when he was a crusading zealot of the left and I a member of the young socialists, but it's a tribute to him that from being someone easier to admire than like, in his later years he became someone for whom a great many people had great affection.
T.
> A shame, a man of principle and conviction.
Agreed; an old-school politician who made many of today's MPs on every side of the house appear as mere apprentices.
I didn't always agree with him, even in the early 1980's when he was a crusading zealot of the left and I a member of the young socialists, but it's a tribute to him that from being someone easier to admire than like, in his later years he became someone for whom a great many people had great affection.
T.
In reply to icnoble:
I keep writing things and then deleting them. Might try to get my thoughts in some order and try later. He was a conviction politician, and they are a very, very rare beast in high office.
I keep writing things and then deleting them. Might try to get my thoughts in some order and try later. He was a conviction politician, and they are a very, very rare beast in high office.
In reply to Skyfall:
He was in no way unpatriotic, but he *was* a socialist internationalist and wasn't capitalist, which many wrongly equate with being 'anti-Britain'.
He was in no way unpatriotic, but he *was* a socialist internationalist and wasn't capitalist, which many wrongly equate with being 'anti-Britain'.
In reply to Skyfall:
An interesting point, which maybe reflects either the limitations of the idea of patriotism or perhaps a very narrow view of what patriotism is.
> Part of the problem was that he seemed unpatriotic, despite his war record.
An interesting point, which maybe reflects either the limitations of the idea of patriotism or perhaps a very narrow view of what patriotism is.
In reply to JayPee630:
I said "seemed". There was also his stance on the Falklands and Thatchers famous gaff. My point was that this was, rightly or wrongly, what distanced a good proportion of voters from him. However, it is noticeable, very much in his favour, that his views are now better understood and appreciated in hindsight.
Anyway, I genuinely didn't mean to cause bad feeling on this thread, simply explaining why I think he didn't appeal to many despite his admirable conviction led style.
I said "seemed". There was also his stance on the Falklands and Thatchers famous gaff. My point was that this was, rightly or wrongly, what distanced a good proportion of voters from him. However, it is noticeable, very much in his favour, that his views are now better understood and appreciated in hindsight.
Anyway, I genuinely didn't mean to cause bad feeling on this thread, simply explaining why I think he didn't appeal to many despite his admirable conviction led style.
Post edited at 09:32
In reply to Skyfall:
For sure. I think it's a common right wing error though to paint anyone who isn't in favour of war or conflict as unpatriotic. He was in favour of sorting the Falklands Crisis out via the UN, which retrospectively seems much more sensible to me than what happened.
For sure. I think it's a common right wing error though to paint anyone who isn't in favour of war or conflict as unpatriotic. He was in favour of sorting the Falklands Crisis out via the UN, which retrospectively seems much more sensible to me than what happened.
In reply to Hooo:
Yes, that was brilliant. He knew what the game was and played it superbly. Akli G knew it and seemed to end up giving him real respect.
> Benn was the only person I saw survive an interview with Ali G without looking ridiculous. He had absolute conviction and integrity.
Yes, that was brilliant. He knew what the game was and played it superbly. Akli G knew it and seemed to end up giving him real respect.
In reply to icnoble:
I did once have the pleasure of chatting over a pint with him, after he did a lecture at our Uni. He was fervent, but amazingly erudite and mannered.
Obviously over the intervening years our political leanings diverged, but I still have enormous respect for the man.
I did once have the pleasure of chatting over a pint with him, after he did a lecture at our Uni. He was fervent, but amazingly erudite and mannered.
Obviously over the intervening years our political leanings diverged, but I still have enormous respect for the man.
In reply to Skyfall:
I'd call this an attack Tony Benn was a run-of-the-mill reformist opportunist , especially to someone like Benn.
However I agree with your final point, and there aren't many left who will gain such a breadth of comment - Thatcher, Crow, Benn all huge characters with a total belief in their politics, whether one agrees with them or not.
I'd call this an attack Tony Benn was a run-of-the-mill reformist opportunist , especially to someone like Benn.
However I agree with your final point, and there aren't many left who will gain such a breadth of comment - Thatcher, Crow, Benn all huge characters with a total belief in their politics, whether one agrees with them or not.
In reply to toad:
I know what you mean, I disagreed with him on lots of things, but had a huge amount of respect for him, much of which seemed trite when I tried to write about it.
He was also a hugely important link to our past as well, his upbringing links him to people as diverse as Ramsey McDonald, Gandhi and Paul Robeson.
> I keep writing things and then deleting them.
I know what you mean, I disagreed with him on lots of things, but had a huge amount of respect for him, much of which seemed trite when I tried to write about it.
He was also a hugely important link to our past as well, his upbringing links him to people as diverse as Ramsey McDonald, Gandhi and Paul Robeson.
In reply to Tony the Blade:
Please don't lump Crow in with Benn - The only thing they have in common is their passing in the same week.
Please don't lump Crow in with Benn - The only thing they have in common is their passing in the same week.
In reply to cander:
I don't think he much liked being referred to as Anthony Wedgewood Benn and for more than 40 years asked to be only referred to as Tony Benn. I have heard a few working class Tories of a certain age refer to him as "that bloody Wedgewood Benn". No doubt keen to stress his privileged background.
I don't think he much liked being referred to as Anthony Wedgewood Benn and for more than 40 years asked to be only referred to as Tony Benn. I have heard a few working class Tories of a certain age refer to him as "that bloody Wedgewood Benn". No doubt keen to stress his privileged background.
In reply to icnoble:
Whether or not you agreed with his politics he was a thoroughly decent chap at heart. I met him on several occasions and it was always like talking to your slightly eccentric uncle rather than being talked at by a politician. One of the few politicians I will really miss.
Whether or not you agreed with his politics he was a thoroughly decent chap at heart. I met him on several occasions and it was always like talking to your slightly eccentric uncle rather than being talked at by a politician. One of the few politicians I will really miss.
In reply to cander:
It is the 21st century, people are allowed to choose what they are called. I don't call George Osborne Gideon, even if that is his given name.
> Like it or not - that was his given name.
It is the 21st century, people are allowed to choose what they are called. I don't call George Osborne Gideon, even if that is his given name.
In reply to cander:
Therefore he had the right to say how it is used.
My name is Anthony, and I was called this until I was 16 then decided I wanted to be called Tony, now everyone calls me Tony - Except my Mam when I'm in trouble (Even though I'm very nearly 50!)
> Like it or not - that was his given name.
Therefore he had the right to say how it is used.
My name is Anthony, and I was called this until I was 16 then decided I wanted to be called Tony, now everyone calls me Tony - Except my Mam when I'm in trouble (Even though I'm very nearly 50!)
I liked the man, but lets not get too carried away, Tony Benn was a divisive career politician who in his heyday displayed all the duplicity and schemeing to achieve power for himself that everyone professes to loathe in our current batch of politicos. The only difference was that he did it from an hard-left stand point. He was central to the chaos that enveloped the Labour party in the early 1980s, and was lucky in that he was able to recultivate his image through the media as a sort of cuddly old maverick of the left who stood up to that nasty Tony Blair once he was well away from power.
Expressing condlonece doesn't have to automatically be accompanied by revisionist hagiography.
He was certainly a man of principle. I just don't think most of them were very good principles.
Expressing condlonece doesn't have to automatically be accompanied by revisionist hagiography.
He was certainly a man of principle. I just don't think most of them were very good principles.
In reply to Cú Chullain:
I met him and Hilary in a preofessional capacity and have to say I found both of them far more credible than almost any other MPs I've had the ( mis)fortune to deal with.
I found his anti-war/nuclear proliferation beyond reproach and admire it even more now I've become a father.
> He was certainly a man of principle. I just don't think most of them were very good principles.
I met him and Hilary in a preofessional capacity and have to say I found both of them far more credible than almost any other MPs I've had the ( mis)fortune to deal with.
I found his anti-war/nuclear proliferation beyond reproach and admire it even more now I've become a father.
In reply to John_Hat:
Exactly my thoughts on the man, I would have loved to have met him.
> A great loss. As others have said a man of principle and conviction, and there's not many of them around theses days.
> I disagreed with more or less every word that came out of Tony Benn's mouth, and respected him enormously.
Exactly my thoughts on the man, I would have loved to have met him.
In reply to zebidee:
Very good...
Right, that's it, Hit the (pearly) gates lads.
> First Bob Crowe, now Tony Benn?
> Typical socialists! One out, all out!
Very good...
Right, that's it, Hit the (pearly) gates lads.
In reply to Tony the Blade:
Actually, to go off topic, I'd be surprised if your name didn't have some legal requirements to it, thats why we have deed poll to change names. So you can use whatever nick name or diminutive you like, but for example when the police ask your name or a court reads out a charge, or a solicitor prepares a document for you, I suspect you must use your full and given name, not your nickname. Though I'm sure the legal types will be able to give us chapter and verse.
Actually, to go off topic, I'd be surprised if your name didn't have some legal requirements to it, thats why we have deed poll to change names. So you can use whatever nick name or diminutive you like, but for example when the police ask your name or a court reads out a charge, or a solicitor prepares a document for you, I suspect you must use your full and given name, not your nickname. Though I'm sure the legal types will be able to give us chapter and verse.
I abhorred his hard left, communist leaning policies but always felt he had charisma. I have no feeling for his passing as a politician but will miss him as an entertainer ;0)
In reply to Ste Brom:
Funny how many communist millionaires there are.
> RIP Tony. Where you throwing your £4,000,000 estate? Back to the people?
Funny how many communist millionaires there are.
In reply to Tony the Blade:
Love it.....the power of your full name said with an edge of urgency.....
How do mums know?
> now everyone calls me Tony - Except my Mam when I'm in trouble (Even though I'm very nearly 50!)
Love it.....the power of your full name said with an edge of urgency.....
How do mums know?
Post edited at 12:42
In reply to crayefish:
Well he wasn't a Communist. I would be upset if any deals were done to avoid inheritance tax on the estate, but I suspect there is no danger of that.
Well he wasn't a Communist. I would be upset if any deals were done to avoid inheritance tax on the estate, but I suspect there is no danger of that.
In reply to Ste Brom:
A very large chunk of it probably.
> RIP Tony. Where you throwing your £4,000,000 estate? Back to the people?
A very large chunk of it probably.
In reply to icnoble:
Top man! His kind of political conviction will be sorely missed. Nobody of this ilk these days.
Top man! His kind of political conviction will be sorely missed. Nobody of this ilk these days.
In reply to soularch:
>Nobody of this ilk these days.
You're wrong about that; Lord Avebury for a start.
Be that as it may though, a model of How a politician should behave, and a sad day - insofar as a peaceful death at a great age can ever be a sad thing.
jcm
>Nobody of this ilk these days.
You're wrong about that; Lord Avebury for a start.
Be that as it may though, a model of How a politician should behave, and a sad day - insofar as a peaceful death at a great age can ever be a sad thing.
jcm
In reply to icnoble:
Rarely agreed with what he said, but I always thought he really meant what he said which is a rare thing in politics. I admired him for that.
Rarely agreed with what he said, but I always thought he really meant what he said which is a rare thing in politics. I admired him for that.
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
Does it really need explaining? Perhaps look up what communism is...
> What's your point?
Does it really need explaining? Perhaps look up what communism is...
In reply to lummox:
Lol! People in glass houses...
"I found his anti-war/nuclear proliferation beyond reproach and admire it even more now I've become a father."
That last part simultaneously made me vomit in my mouth while also wetting myself with laughter!
> what an unspeakably dull statement.
Lol! People in glass houses...
"I found his anti-war/nuclear proliferation beyond reproach and admire it even more now I've become a father."
That last part simultaneously made me vomit in my mouth while also wetting myself with laughter!
In reply to crayefish:
you probably need to get some Andrex for that... you would think his anti-war stance made sense wouldn't you ? Yet he was lambasted for it and called unpatriotic amongst many far more unpleasant epithets back in the 80s.
Btw, in what sense was he a communist ? I'm intrigued..
you probably need to get some Andrex for that... you would think his anti-war stance made sense wouldn't you ? Yet he was lambasted for it and called unpatriotic amongst many far more unpleasant epithets back in the 80s.
Btw, in what sense was he a communist ? I'm intrigued..
In reply to lummox:
Nothing wrong with an anti-war stance. But the 'I understand it more since being a father' thing is pretty funny.
Hard core socialist... communist. Same thing really.
> you probably need to get some Andrex for that... you would think his anti-war stance made sense wouldn't you ? Yet he was lambasted for it and called unpatriotic amongst many far more unpleasant epithets back in the 80s.
Nothing wrong with an anti-war stance. But the 'I understand it more since being a father' thing is pretty funny.
> Btw, in what sense was he a communist ? I'm intrigued..
Hard core socialist... communist. Same thing really.
In reply to crayefish:
No it's not, I'm a hard core socialist capitalist, not a communist. I just think the exploiters of capitalism need to be constrained by the people, like through unions and the labour party and CND and such.
> Hard core socialist... communist. Same thing really.
No it's not, I'm a hard core socialist capitalist, not a communist. I just think the exploiters of capitalism need to be constrained by the people, like through unions and the labour party and CND and such.
In reply to crayefish:
I wouldn't have asked otherwise, but if you want to reply by being insulting then so be it.
> Does it really need explaining?
I wouldn't have asked otherwise, but if you want to reply by being insulting then so be it.
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
To be honest your reply seemed rather arsey to me (its a phase often used as such)! But if I misread the tone (easily done with text) then I appologise. I simply meant that the two don't really fit together (like a animal rights type going on a fox hunt) but you still find many rich communists, despite the fact that one of the underpinnings of communism is that everyone is equal, including wealth distribution.
To be honest your reply seemed rather arsey to me (its a phase often used as such)! But if I misread the tone (easily done with text) then I appologise. I simply meant that the two don't really fit together (like a animal rights type going on a fox hunt) but you still find many rich communists, despite the fact that one of the underpinnings of communism is that everyone is equal, including wealth distribution.
In reply to crayefish:
You'd be surprised look at China
> Funny how many communist millionaires there are.
You'd be surprised look at China
In reply to crayefish:
I agree with you there. But it is not necessarily wealth that is the measure but power. There may have not been many rich communists in the world but my observation is that there has always, by virtue of human nature, been an imbalance of power, where those in authority have the ability to dictate over those who are not
I agree with you there. But it is not necessarily wealth that is the measure but power. There may have not been many rich communists in the world but my observation is that there has always, by virtue of human nature, been an imbalance of power, where those in authority have the ability to dictate over those who are not
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Part of my point
Yep, very true. Which is one of the reasons why communism or hard core socialism are lovely in principal but in reality they don't work - it just doesn't fit with human nature because some people are greedy and some are lazy. Though to be fair, true 'communism' has never really existed since Lenin enacted the NEP.
> You'd be surprised look at China
Part of my point
> I agree with you there. But it is not necessarily wealth that is the measure but power. There may have not been many rich communists in the world but my observation is that there has always, by virtue of human nature, been an imbalance of power, where those in authority have the ability to dictate over those who are not.
Yep, very true. Which is one of the reasons why communism or hard core socialism are lovely in principal but in reality they don't work - it just doesn't fit with human nature because some people are greedy and some are lazy. Though to be fair, true 'communism' has never really existed since Lenin enacted the NEP.
In reply to crayefish:
Just as you would find poor Conservatives (a la Alf Garnet). I'd always assumed politics were about beliefs not status and wealth. I would suggest given Tony Benn's position on many points, so did he.
Just as you would find poor Conservatives (a la Alf Garnet). I'd always assumed politics were about beliefs not status and wealth. I would suggest given Tony Benn's position on many points, so did he.
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
>that there has always, by virtue of human nature, been an imbalance of power, where those in authority have the ability to dictate over those who are not
Next up: Pope a Catholic, footballers kick footballs, train drivers drive trains….
>that there has always, by virtue of human nature, been an imbalance of power, where those in authority have the ability to dictate over those who are not
Next up: Pope a Catholic, footballers kick footballs, train drivers drive trains….
Post edited at 16:53
In reply to icnoble:
There are very few Labour politicians that I can stomach, despite my left-wing sympathies. Tony Benn was one of them, a buffoon to many, but highly respected by so many more. He and Frank Field are the two Labour politicians that I would have liked to have lead the party; two different interpretations of Socialism, but both honest and highly principled.
There are very few Labour politicians that I can stomach, despite my left-wing sympathies. Tony Benn was one of them, a buffoon to many, but highly respected by so many more. He and Frank Field are the two Labour politicians that I would have liked to have lead the party; two different interpretations of Socialism, but both honest and highly principled.
Post edited at 17:06
In reply to Postmanpat:
Except when Bob's got'em out on strike...
> >that there has always, by virtue of human nature, been an imbalance of power, where those in authority have the ability to dictate over those who are not
> Next up: train drivers drive trains….
Except when Bob's got'em out on strike...
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
But the beliefs include wealth. Socialism leans towards a fair (and reasonably even) distribution of wealth... thus you can't separate politics from wealth entirely (though it would be nice!).
> Just as you would find poor Conservatives (a la Alf Garnet). I'd always assumed politics were about beliefs not status and wealth. I would suggest given Tony Benn's position on many points, so did he.
But the beliefs include wealth. Socialism leans towards a fair (and reasonably even) distribution of wealth... thus you can't separate politics from wealth entirely (though it would be nice!).
In reply to crayefish:
>thus you can't separate politics from wealth entirely (though it would be nice!).
Agreed but even distribution doesn't need to imply that everyone needs to be poor. Benn was wealthy but not ridiculously so.
>thus you can't separate politics from wealth entirely (though it would be nice!).
Agreed but even distribution doesn't need to imply that everyone needs to be poor. Benn was wealthy but not ridiculously so.
In reply to crayefish:
Depends on your brand of socialism and fair doesn't have to mean equal / even, just less unequal.
> But the beliefs include wealth. Socialism leans towards a fair (and reasonably even) distribution of wealth... thus you can't separate politics from wealth entirely (though it would be nice!).
Depends on your brand of socialism and fair doesn't have to mean equal / even, just less unequal.
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
4 million (I think it was stated) is a fair old nest egg! Not oligarch rich but still.
I have no issue with his fortune whatsoever (fair play to him for amassing it!). Just find it slightly hypocritical given how left he was.
4 million (I think it was stated) is a fair old nest egg! Not oligarch rich but still.
I have no issue with his fortune whatsoever (fair play to him for amassing it!). Just find it slightly hypocritical given how left he was.
In reply to icnoble:
He was a great man.
I walked with him and Listened to him Talk at an anti gulf war demo at a US Airbase.
He was a great man.
I walked with him and Listened to him Talk at an anti gulf war demo at a US Airbase.
In reply to crayefish:
It's funny: I agree with a lot that Benn had to say and liked him personally when I had to spend time with him in less than ideal circumstances as the representative of a tabloid newspaper during the 1983 election campaign in Bristol. He was unfailingly polite, pleasant and friendly even though he knew I was working for papers that disliked him.
However - for me it's impossible to get away from the fact that he had such huge advantages in life. It's easy to be at ease, confident,, courteous when you are utterly secure in your importance in society.
It's funny: I agree with a lot that Benn had to say and liked him personally when I had to spend time with him in less than ideal circumstances as the representative of a tabloid newspaper during the 1983 election campaign in Bristol. He was unfailingly polite, pleasant and friendly even though he knew I was working for papers that disliked him.
However - for me it's impossible to get away from the fact that he had such huge advantages in life. It's easy to be at ease, confident,, courteous when you are utterly secure in your importance in society.
In reply to crayefish:
I'm confident quite a lot would have been inherited. Why do the left have to give up their wealth.....i believe in a better world for everyone and to do so i have suffer.....makes no sense to me
> I have no issue with his fortune whatsoever (fair play to him for amassing it!). Just find it slightly hypocritical given how left he was.
I'm confident quite a lot would have been inherited. Why do the left have to give up their wealth.....i believe in a better world for everyone and to do so i have suffer.....makes no sense to me
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
But he wasn't just left... he was REALLY left.
> I'm confident quite a lot would have been inherited. Why do the left have to give up their wealth.....i believe in a better world for everyone and to do so i have suffer.....makes no sense to me
But he wasn't just left... he was REALLY left.
In reply to Richard Baynes:
And yet quite a few don't seem able to do it.
I just heard this news, it's sad, something has changed in the world even if it comes to us all and 88 isn't bad. I can't help an odd feeling that people like him are permanent fixtures, something solid that will always be there to give us courage, but of course they aren't. I can't think of any others like him left?
> It's easy to be at ease, confident,, courteous when you are utterly secure in your importance in society.
And yet quite a few don't seem able to do it.
I just heard this news, it's sad, something has changed in the world even if it comes to us all and 88 isn't bad. I can't help an odd feeling that people like him are permanent fixtures, something solid that will always be there to give us courage, but of course they aren't. I can't think of any others like him left?
In reply to icnoble:
Good effort on the Lords
Champagne socialist otherwise and a bit bonkers in the second half
Can't believe how much coverage R4 insisted on giving him.
Good effort on the Lords
Champagne socialist otherwise and a bit bonkers in the second half
Can't believe how much coverage R4 insisted on giving him.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Yep, good point. I think my mum (think little old lady and unexpected arch republican) sowed the seeds of doubt as she thought he could not shake off his aristocratic background. Like I say it was a pleasure to have dealings with the man. A few years later I spent an election night around Dennis Skinner who I had long admired and he was an obnoxious old git. I suspect his maulings by the press had made him deeply suspicious of the likes of me but the comparison with Benn was striking. I can only put it down to Benn's upbringing, and wish we all had his advantages so we could play such a large role on the national stage.
> And yet quite a few don't seem able to do it.
Yep, good point. I think my mum (think little old lady and unexpected arch republican) sowed the seeds of doubt as she thought he could not shake off his aristocratic background. Like I say it was a pleasure to have dealings with the man. A few years later I spent an election night around Dennis Skinner who I had long admired and he was an obnoxious old git. I suspect his maulings by the press had made him deeply suspicious of the likes of me but the comparison with Benn was striking. I can only put it down to Benn's upbringing, and wish we all had his advantages so we could play such a large role on the national stage.
In reply to icnoble:
The Concorde project was well advanced when Tony Benn became aviation minister in 1968, but he then played a major part in keeping it on track when the Treasury wanted to cancel it because of spiralling costs.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/oct/17/theairlineindustry.g21
The Concorde project was well advanced when Tony Benn became aviation minister in 1968, but he then played a major part in keeping it on track when the Treasury wanted to cancel it because of spiralling costs.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/oct/17/theairlineindustry.g21
In reply to stroppygob:
I was hugely disappointed that he sent his children to private school and always surprised that a bigger fuss was not made of this.
Thankfully, I think, at some stage, they were switched to a state comprehensive.
> A shame, a man of principle and conviction.
I was hugely disappointed that he sent his children to private school and always surprised that a bigger fuss was not made of this.
Thankfully, I think, at some stage, they were switched to a state comprehensive.
In reply to The New NickB:
They might have been richer for listening to him, as would Labourites.
" Benn wanted oil revenues to be ring-fenced for industrial regeneration and not used to finance short-term tax cuts. ......
Sadly, Benn’s far-sighted strategy was abandoned by the incoming Conservative administration of 1979.
The BNOC was sold off, with Energy Minister Nigel Lawson proudly announcing that
the Government’s energy policy was that it didn’t have one."
What could have been.......mismanagement by both parties, and the average Briton is all the poorer for their mistakes.
> . I have heard a few working class Tories of a certain age refer to him as "that bloody Wedgewood Benn".
They might have been richer for listening to him, as would Labourites.
" Benn wanted oil revenues to be ring-fenced for industrial regeneration and not used to finance short-term tax cuts. ......
Sadly, Benn’s far-sighted strategy was abandoned by the incoming Conservative administration of 1979.
The BNOC was sold off, with Energy Minister Nigel Lawson proudly announcing that
the Government’s energy policy was that it didn’t have one."
What could have been.......mismanagement by both parties, and the average Briton is all the poorer for their mistakes.
In reply to NMN:
I missed what private school his kids went to.
I understood they all went to the same ,comprehensive, and their mother was a governor .
What private school are you alluding to?
> I was hugely disappointed that he sent his children to private school and always surprised that a bigger fuss was not made of this.
> Thankfully, I think, at some stage, they were switched to a state comprehensive.
I missed what private school his kids went to.
I understood they all went to the same ,comprehensive, and their mother was a governor .
What private school are you alluding to?
In reply to NMN:
The documentary about him last night said that he insisted on state schools for his children.
The documentary about him last night said that he insisted on state schools for his children.
In reply to wynaptomos:
That doesn't sound very good of the documentary to ignore an initial lack of principle and conviction.
I didn't see the documentary.
> The documentary about him last night said that he insisted on state schools for his children.
That doesn't sound very good of the documentary to ignore an initial lack of principle and conviction.
I didn't see the documentary.
In reply to Jim C:
Norland Place
Westminster Under School
> What private school are you alluding to?
Norland Place
Westminster Under School
In reply to wynaptomos:
Correct, I have no idea why anyone would be saying otherwise.
"Opened in 1958, the school became the flagship for comprehensive education, and in its heyday had over 2,000 students. A number of high-profile socialists sent their children to Holland Park School, and it became known as "the socialist Eton".
The Labour politician Tony Benn and his wife Caroline notably sent all four of their children to the school.[4]"
> The documentary about him last night said that he insisted on state schools for his children.
Correct, I have no idea why anyone would be saying otherwise.
"Opened in 1958, the school became the flagship for comprehensive education, and in its heyday had over 2,000 students. A number of high-profile socialists sent their children to Holland Park School, and it became known as "the socialist Eton".
The Labour politician Tony Benn and his wife Caroline notably sent all four of their children to the school.[4]"
In reply to NMN:
Ok, I will look this up, or have you some links , to save us the time, and reinforce your point?
> Norland Place
> Westminster Under School
Ok, I will look this up, or have you some links , to save us the time, and reinforce your point?
In reply to Jim C:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/aug/29/melissa-benn-comprehensive...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Benn
> Ok, I will look this up, or have you some links , to save us the time, and reinforce your point?
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/aug/29/melissa-benn-comprehensive...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Benn
In reply to NMN:
Cheers.
I saw the Wiki link to Hillary, but when I followed it, he was not mentioned( that I could see.
Interesting, that he was not then a 'notable' pupil. The politician's politician of the years and squeaky clean expenses is notable to me.
From Wiki on Holland Park
Notable former pupils include:
Veronica Wedgwood
George Osborne
Lukas Gilbert
Joan Beauchamp Procter
Cheers.
I saw the Wiki link to Hillary, but when I followed it, he was not mentioned( that I could see.
Interesting, that he was not then a 'notable' pupil. The politician's politician of the years and squeaky clean expenses is notable to me.
From Wiki on Holland Park
Notable former pupils include:
Veronica Wedgwood
George Osborne
Lukas Gilbert
Joan Beauchamp Procter
In reply to NMN:
Methinks you are stretching the truth by omission.
The Benns, with money on both sides of the family, enrolled Melissa at Norland Place, an expensive London PREP school later attended by George Osborne.
But when she was seven, she and her two elder brothers were switched to the state sector.
Oddly, her name was still put down for the posh, fee-charging St Paul's girls' school because, she says, "there was a tremendous nervousness, not from my parents but from the world they lived in, grandparents and so on, about what they'd done and so they wanted reassurance that I was keeping up academically".
A place was offered but rejected. Melissa, like her three brothers, went instead to Holland Park comprehensive, close to the family home in west London.
But I do accept that you did mention a switch ' at some stage'
Something I did not appreciate, thanks.
Methinks you are stretching the truth by omission.
The Benns, with money on both sides of the family, enrolled Melissa at Norland Place, an expensive London PREP school later attended by George Osborne.
But when she was seven, she and her two elder brothers were switched to the state sector.
Oddly, her name was still put down for the posh, fee-charging St Paul's girls' school because, she says, "there was a tremendous nervousness, not from my parents but from the world they lived in, grandparents and so on, about what they'd done and so they wanted reassurance that I was keeping up academically".
A place was offered but rejected. Melissa, like her three brothers, went instead to Holland Park comprehensive, close to the family home in west London.
But I do accept that you did mention a switch ' at some stage'
Something I did not appreciate, thanks.
Post edited at 10:55
In reply to Jim C:
It is a fact that Melissa attended Norland Place and Hilary attended Norland Place and Westminster Under School.
As said, I found this hugely disappointing at the time.
But thankfully, it did get put right, when they were switched to state comprehensive.
> Methinks you are stretching the truth by omission.
> But I do accept that you did mention a switch ' at some stage'
> Something I did not appreciate, thanks.
It is a fact that Melissa attended Norland Place and Hilary attended Norland Place and Westminster Under School.
As said, I found this hugely disappointing at the time.
But thankfully, it did get put right, when they were switched to state comprehensive.
Post edited at 11:03
In reply to John_Hat:
Will we say the same about Skinner I wonder, when it is his turn.
He has the wit, but perhaps not the manners and charm of Benn.
I wonder if they will ponder on his Grammar School Tupton Hall , and Independent Ruskin College education ?
Time will tell.
> A great loss. As others have said a man of principle and conviction, and there's not many of them around theses days.
> I disagreed with more or less every word that came out of Tony Benn's mouth, and respected him enormously.
Will we say the same about Skinner I wonder, when it is his turn.
He has the wit, but perhaps not the manners and charm of Benn.
I wonder if they will ponder on his Grammar School Tupton Hall , and Independent Ruskin College education ?
Time will tell.
Post edited at 11:05
In reply to icnoble:
Well I can accept that Benn was a principled man - even that he was an eloquent and persuasive speaker - but he put the Labour movement back 50 years, was a complete numpty when it came to the Soviets and generally did very little to improve life in the UK.
Ditto Bob the Train. It's ok saying he looked after his members - but he seemed to give little thought to the rest of his countrymen.
Well I can accept that Benn was a principled man - even that he was an eloquent and persuasive speaker - but he put the Labour movement back 50 years, was a complete numpty when it came to the Soviets and generally did very little to improve life in the UK.
Ditto Bob the Train. It's ok saying he looked after his members - but he seemed to give little thought to the rest of his countrymen.
In reply to cander:
Next time you bump into Muhammad Ali you should call call him Cassius Clay. The last guy to call him that got battered all round the ring.
Next time you bump into Muhammad Ali you should call call him Cassius Clay. The last guy to call him that got battered all round the ring.
In reply to Jim C:
I've seen Rottweilers with more charm and wit.
> Will we say the same about Skinner I wonder, when it is his turn.
> He has the wit, but perhaps not the manners and charm of Benn.
I've seen Rottweilers with more charm and wit.
In reply to NMN:
Where their mother was on the Board of governors and they could barely move between the crush of offspring of Labour and arty luvvies.
> It is a fact that Melissa attended Norland Place and Hilary attended Norland Place and Westminster Under School.
> As said, I found this hugely disappointing at the time.
> But thankfully, it did get put right, when they were switched to state comprehensive.
Where their mother was on the Board of governors and they could barely move between the crush of offspring of Labour and arty luvvies.
In reply to Jim C:
Argument? evidence? The estimated value of an oil fund for the UK per capita after 40 years is £13k.
Can you give your calculations or of why this figure was better than the policies adopt red?
> What could have been.......mismanagement by both parties, and the average Briton is all the poorer for their mistakes.
Argument? evidence? The estimated value of an oil fund for the UK per capita after 40 years is £13k.
Can you give your calculations or of why this figure was better than the policies adopt red?
In reply to Postmanpat:
I am no oil economist ( maybe you are, if so happy to see your analysis, but rather there seems to be a con census that we have ( see links)
I had been reading a lot of stuff around Benn , and it seems to be the received wisdom, that the companies exploiting the oil, were exploiting the UK, or were about to. Benn saw this, and set up companies to redress this, but a change of government stopped some of this, and the continuity was lost, to the advantage of the oil companies.
Worst still there was no oil fund set up to benefit the Uk, nor was the money invested in UK infrastructure , as much as perhaps should have been.(Thatcher was landed with a oil revenue windfall that she had other plans for)
http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2012/mar/29/north-sea-oi...
"Britain has squandered golden opportunity North Sea oil promised
Norway saved up its North Sea revenue to pay for an ageing population, but the UK has frittered its windfall away"
.newstatesman
Thatcher and North Sea oil – a failure to invest in Britain’s future
Had Thatcher been a truly visionary politician, she would have established a wealth fund for the oil windfall, not squandered it on tax cuts and current spending.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10103345/We-wasted-North-Sea-oil-le...
"We wasted North Sea oil – let’s not do the same with shale gas
A sovereign wealth fund based on Britain's newest energy resource is not to be sniffed at"
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/westminster-takes-absurd-position-on-s...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19871411
"Has the UK squandered its North Sea riches?"
> Argument? evidence? The estimated value of an oil fund for the UK per capita after 40 years is £13k.
> Can you give your calculations or of why this figure was better than the policies adopt red?
I am no oil economist ( maybe you are, if so happy to see your analysis, but rather there seems to be a con census that we have ( see links)
I had been reading a lot of stuff around Benn , and it seems to be the received wisdom, that the companies exploiting the oil, were exploiting the UK, or were about to. Benn saw this, and set up companies to redress this, but a change of government stopped some of this, and the continuity was lost, to the advantage of the oil companies.
Worst still there was no oil fund set up to benefit the Uk, nor was the money invested in UK infrastructure , as much as perhaps should have been.(Thatcher was landed with a oil revenue windfall that she had other plans for)
http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2012/mar/29/north-sea-oi...
"Britain has squandered golden opportunity North Sea oil promised
Norway saved up its North Sea revenue to pay for an ageing population, but the UK has frittered its windfall away"
.newstatesman
Thatcher and North Sea oil – a failure to invest in Britain’s future
Had Thatcher been a truly visionary politician, she would have established a wealth fund for the oil windfall, not squandered it on tax cuts and current spending.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10103345/We-wasted-North-Sea-oil-le...
"We wasted North Sea oil – let’s not do the same with shale gas
A sovereign wealth fund based on Britain's newest energy resource is not to be sniffed at"
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/westminster-takes-absurd-position-on-s...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19871411
"Has the UK squandered its North Sea riches?"
In reply to Jim C:
It's neither a consensus nor a received wisdom. It's one point of view.Norway's population is less than10% of the UK's and it didn't have to pay for the wrenching impact of the the decline of heavy manufacturing because it barely had any. The comparisons aren't valid. They are largely based on the ideological view (championed by benn) the the State knows best how to to spend people's money.
It's neither a consensus nor a received wisdom. It's one point of view.Norway's population is less than10% of the UK's and it didn't have to pay for the wrenching impact of the the decline of heavy manufacturing because it barely had any. The comparisons aren't valid. They are largely based on the ideological view (championed by benn) the the State knows best how to to spend people's money.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Ok , if those links,of a range of press views , ( and there are plenty more) that the UK squandered the oil wealth, is NOT a received wisdom,and not a consensus, and you say this is just 'one point of view' ( held by a lot of the press)
Where is your evidence against this, 'consensus' showing that it has NOT squandered it's Oil wealth?
By my definition , it ( Westminster all parties) has therefore put it to good use, and used it efficiently and wisely)
When I search for positive views of the UKs husbanding of the oil and gas reserves! I am not finding it . Where us that positive view
( apart from you of course )
> It's neither a consensus nor a received wisdom. It's one point of view.Norway's population is less than10% of the UK's and it didn't have to pay for the wrenching impact of the the decline of heavy manufacturing because it barely had any. The comparisons aren't valid. They are largely based on the ideological view (championed by benn) the the State knows best how to to spend people's money.
Ok , if those links,of a range of press views , ( and there are plenty more) that the UK squandered the oil wealth, is NOT a received wisdom,and not a consensus, and you say this is just 'one point of view' ( held by a lot of the press)
Where is your evidence against this, 'consensus' showing that it has NOT squandered it's Oil wealth?
By my definition , it ( Westminster all parties) has therefore put it to good use, and used it efficiently and wisely)
When I search for positive views of the UKs husbanding of the oil and gas reserves! I am not finding it . Where us that positive view
( apart from you of course )
Post edited at 11:59
In reply to Jim C:
Well of course not. Why would anyone write long articles about something that didnt happen and they didnt want to happen? It was discussed at the time and we moved on.
Well of course not. Why would anyone write long articles about something that didnt happen and they didnt want to happen? It was discussed at the time and we moved on.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Oh!
Ok then.
> Well of course not. Why would anyone write long articles about something that didnt happen and they didnt want to happen? It was discussed at the time and we moved on.
Oh!
Ok then.
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