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I was pretty certain he wouldn't win yesterday, but thought he might run a little bit faster. He broke Charlie Spedding's English record at least and I am not sure when a Brit last ran sub 2:10. I am sure he can get faster if he sticks at the marathon.
I was really impressed with Chris Thompson's debut, I am sure he can get faster as well. Would be great to have two Brits operating at sub 2:10 again.
I was really impressed with Chris Thompson's debut, I am sure he can get faster as well. Would be great to have two Brits operating at sub 2:10 again.
In reply to The New NickB:
Chris Thompson was great I agree. I was pretty sure Mo wouldn't win but a little bit of me wondered if there might be a fairy tale ending. Long time in the wilderness running his own race.
Chris Thompson was great I agree. I was pretty sure Mo wouldn't win but a little bit of me wondered if there might be a fairy tale ending. Long time in the wilderness running his own race.
In reply to The New NickB:
I caught one the tabloid sports headlines this morning, "Mo Failure" I think it read..
Sometimes journalists are beyond belief.
I caught one the tabloid sports headlines this morning, "Mo Failure" I think it read..
Sometimes journalists are beyond belief.
In reply to The New NickB:
I'm tempted to say Mo got his tactics very wrong yesterday and you do not want to let a big group get down the road - they feed off each other and the times are so fast now that the elite are blowing up a lot less than in Salazars day
. I need to look at his postrace interview again but he knows that as well.
I'm tempted to say Mo got his tactics very wrong yesterday and you do not want to let a big group get down the road - they feed off each other and the times are so fast now that the elite are blowing up a lot less than in Salazars day
. I need to look at his postrace interview again but he knows that as well.
In reply to wbo:
I disagree to an extent, I don't think he had any intension of trying to go at 2:04 pace, but I think he expected a few more around him at 2:06 pace. I suspect he expected more of Jeilan.
I disagree to an extent, I don't think he had any intension of trying to go at 2:04 pace, but I think he expected a few more around him at 2:06 pace. I suspect he expected more of Jeilan.
In reply to The New NickB:
If he wants to win the race he doesn't have any choice, unless he's planning a 63 and then a solo 61 against a group that's racing off each other.
Negative splits are a good idea for those >2:10, but don't work very well at elite level as they require you to put in a herculean effort just at the time you're most unlikely to do it.
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If he wants to win the race he doesn't have any choice, unless he's planning a 63 and then a solo 61 against a group that's racing off each other.
Negative splits are a good idea for those >2:10, but don't work very well at elite level as they require you to put in a herculean effort just at the time you're most unlikely to do it.
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Post edited at 11:39
In reply to wbo:
I don't think he ever intended to win the race, unless it was handed to him on a plate. I am pretty sure he was aiming for 2:06.
I don't think he ever intended to win the race, unless it was handed to him on a plate. I am pretty sure he was aiming for 2:06.
In reply to The New NickB:
He was basically on a hiding to nothing: anything less than a win would be seen as a failure by most people and he was never going to win or go under 2:06 on debut. I think he had a sensible plan/strategy and ran it well. All of the folks he started with dropped off that pace leaving him isolated but he shouldn't have gone out with the front group over the first 5K as they were running suicide pace. Part of the problem is that with ~10 in the front group one will be able to hack it on the day and go onto run 2:04/5 but the other 9 are all casualties to some extent. Mo couldn't take that risk. I reckon conditions were a lot harder than they looked on TV, having run the BUPA 10000 which is around a lot of the last few miles is gets really breezy round there (and canary wharf) and its not easy to run that solo. What kind of surprised me is that the organisers didn't try to set things up a little better for him ie more than one pacemaker. Can he get quicker and run 2:06? - don't see why not. Chris Thompson is quality and a nice bloke, great to see him doing so well. He just needs to stay injury free and he will also go quicker.
Bottom line is running 2:06:xx is bl**dy hard!
He was basically on a hiding to nothing: anything less than a win would be seen as a failure by most people and he was never going to win or go under 2:06 on debut. I think he had a sensible plan/strategy and ran it well. All of the folks he started with dropped off that pace leaving him isolated but he shouldn't have gone out with the front group over the first 5K as they were running suicide pace. Part of the problem is that with ~10 in the front group one will be able to hack it on the day and go onto run 2:04/5 but the other 9 are all casualties to some extent. Mo couldn't take that risk. I reckon conditions were a lot harder than they looked on TV, having run the BUPA 10000 which is around a lot of the last few miles is gets really breezy round there (and canary wharf) and its not easy to run that solo. What kind of surprised me is that the organisers didn't try to set things up a little better for him ie more than one pacemaker. Can he get quicker and run 2:06? - don't see why not. Chris Thompson is quality and a nice bloke, great to see him doing so well. He just needs to stay injury free and he will also go quicker.
Bottom line is running 2:06:xx is bl**dy hard!
In reply to wbo:
I think he expected a fast start and not to stick with it, just not quite so fast and with quite such a gap so soon, with pretty much nobody his pace to run with. Gebrselassie kind of did for him. I don't know what job the second lot of pacers had (2:06 pace?) but it didn't really help Mo at all. Couldn't help notice his long stride and slower cadence next to everyone else. Anyways, still a quality run, we just expect so much from him.
I think he expected a fast start and not to stick with it, just not quite so fast and with quite such a gap so soon, with pretty much nobody his pace to run with. Gebrselassie kind of did for him. I don't know what job the second lot of pacers had (2:06 pace?) but it didn't really help Mo at all. Couldn't help notice his long stride and slower cadence next to everyone else. Anyways, still a quality run, we just expect so much from him.
In reply to nathan79:
He's the British record holder at 1500, 5000, 10k and half Marathon. That in itself is pretty remarkable, but it would have been amazing had he added the marathon to that list. But because he is so good, the expectations are very high
Look at the way Tim Henman was derided, and still regarded by many as a "loser"
> I caught one the tabloid sports headlines this morning, "Mo Failure" I think it read..
He's the British record holder at 1500, 5000, 10k and half Marathon. That in itself is pretty remarkable, but it would have been amazing had he added the marathon to that list. But because he is so good, the expectations are very high
> Sometimes journalists are beyond belief.
Look at the way Tim Henman was derided, and still regarded by many as a "loser"
In reply to Humperdink:
There was a longish piece (in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung of all places) suggesting that the traditional way of doing long distances on track first, before switching to marathon does not work anymore. Too many talented young runners that immediately go for street marathons (where the money is) and train for ultra fast marathon times regardless of the risk of stress injuries.
The author (some trainer, forgot the name) also suggested that it is essentially impossible to find a training regime that allows you to push your marathon time below 2.06 (or whatever else is required to put you into contention), while at the same time preserving finishing speed for the 5k and 10k track races.
The author therefore did not give MF (or anyone else) a fighting chance to win a major road marathon as long as they were continuing their track career.
Pretty much spot on IMO,
CB
There was a longish piece (in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung of all places) suggesting that the traditional way of doing long distances on track first, before switching to marathon does not work anymore. Too many talented young runners that immediately go for street marathons (where the money is) and train for ultra fast marathon times regardless of the risk of stress injuries.
The author (some trainer, forgot the name) also suggested that it is essentially impossible to find a training regime that allows you to push your marathon time below 2.06 (or whatever else is required to put you into contention), while at the same time preserving finishing speed for the 5k and 10k track races.
The author therefore did not give MF (or anyone else) a fighting chance to win a major road marathon as long as they were continuing their track career.
Pretty much spot on IMO,
CB
In reply to cb294:
Possible distinction between World Series marathons (London, Berlin, Tokyo, New York etc) and championship marathons. Stephen Kiprotich is World and Olympic Marathon champion, he didn't run sub 2:08 to win either and has never run faster than 2:07.
Possible distinction between World Series marathons (London, Berlin, Tokyo, New York etc) and championship marathons. Stephen Kiprotich is World and Olympic Marathon champion, he didn't run sub 2:08 to win either and has never run faster than 2:07.
In reply to The New NickB:
Just had a look at the British all time list on Po10. 15 Brits have run sub 2:10, three since the turn of the century Farah plus Mark Steinle (2002) and Jon Brown (2005), two in the 90s Paul Evans and Richard Nerurker, eight in the 80s Steve Jones, Charlie Spedding, Geoff Smith, Alastair Hutton, Hugh Jones, John Graham, Mike Stratton and Tony Milovsorov, two in the 70s Ron Hill and Ian Thompson.
I have to admit there are a few of those from the 80s that I have never heard of.
Just had a look at the British all time list on Po10. 15 Brits have run sub 2:10, three since the turn of the century Farah plus Mark Steinle (2002) and Jon Brown (2005), two in the 90s Paul Evans and Richard Nerurker, eight in the 80s Steve Jones, Charlie Spedding, Geoff Smith, Alastair Hutton, Hugh Jones, John Graham, Mike Stratton and Tony Milovsorov, two in the 70s Ron Hill and Ian Thompson.
I have to admit there are a few of those from the 80s that I have never heard of.
In reply to The New NickB:
The 80s were the glory years for British road running, the club scene was very strong back then. Lots of races still have their course records from back then, but it is the depth of quality field that is the big difference from today.
It just shows that it's hard graft, pure and simple, that is required - all your fancy protein shakes, energy gels, kineo tape, compression gear, etc, etc is no substitute for regular 100-140 mile weeks.
As mentioned a few posts back, I don't think Mo's running style is suited to top end marathon running - he needs to conserve energy, and become more efficient, at the moment his stride is too long and has too much bounce.
The 80s were the glory years for British road running, the club scene was very strong back then. Lots of races still have their course records from back then, but it is the depth of quality field that is the big difference from today.
It just shows that it's hard graft, pure and simple, that is required - all your fancy protein shakes, energy gels, kineo tape, compression gear, etc, etc is no substitute for regular 100-140 mile weeks.
As mentioned a few posts back, I don't think Mo's running style is suited to top end marathon running - he needs to conserve energy, and become more efficient, at the moment his stride is too long and has too much bounce.
In reply to cb294:
My guess is the trainer was Renato Cornova. They may well be right but at some point you have to be able to fast over a short distance to then run fast over a longer one. If you can't run under 30 mins for 10K you aren't going to be able to run a marathon at that pace (2:06) and in fact your 10K is going to have to be quicker than 30 mins. So whilst people move up sooner than in the past ie concentrate on the marathon straight away, (mainly because for east africans it is so lucrative) every marathon program will start with people getting themselves into the best possible 10K shape before starting more marathon specific work.
The event has moved on a huge amount in the last 5-10 years - the reasons for this are probably for another thread...
My guess is the trainer was Renato Cornova. They may well be right but at some point you have to be able to fast over a short distance to then run fast over a longer one. If you can't run under 30 mins for 10K you aren't going to be able to run a marathon at that pace (2:06) and in fact your 10K is going to have to be quicker than 30 mins. So whilst people move up sooner than in the past ie concentrate on the marathon straight away, (mainly because for east africans it is so lucrative) every marathon program will start with people getting themselves into the best possible 10K shape before starting more marathon specific work.
The event has moved on a huge amount in the last 5-10 years - the reasons for this are probably for another thread...
In reply to cb294:
There was an article by Salazar a while back on Mo.. AlSal's taken a bashing here in the states and there are serious questions about those in his stable.. but this article made sense..
He said he cant train Mo and Galen like the kenyans can. The kenyans have 100 runners who can run sub 2:08.. get them all on 140 mile weeks and the 10 surviving will run 2:04's.. AlSal has 2 who he needs fit so has to be much more conservative.
But Nike will want Farah dominating the track so I dont think he'll fully switch. I think he's pride was hurt yesterday but he worked hard.
It'll be interesting who goes for the commonwealth marathon, Andi Jones ran 2:16:57 or so last week but now 2 more english went sub 2:17 last week, including steve way.. then their are the olympic marathoners who may or may not throw their hat in.. I doubt Mo would. But there are afew with 2:15's from 2013 and now farah and thompson..
> There was a longish piece (in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung of all places) suggesting that the traditional way of doing long distances on track first, before switching to marathon does not work anymore. Too many talented young runners that immediately go for street marathons (where the money is) and train for ultra fast marathon times regardless of the risk of stress injuries.
> The author (some trainer, forgot the name) also suggested that it is essentially impossible to find a training regime that allows you to push your marathon time below 2.06 (or whatever else is required to put you into contention), while at the same time preserving finishing speed for the 5k and 10k track races.
> The author therefore did not give MF (or anyone else) a fighting chance to win a major road marathon as long as they were continuing their track career.
> Pretty much spot on IMO,
> CB
There was an article by Salazar a while back on Mo.. AlSal's taken a bashing here in the states and there are serious questions about those in his stable.. but this article made sense..
He said he cant train Mo and Galen like the kenyans can. The kenyans have 100 runners who can run sub 2:08.. get them all on 140 mile weeks and the 10 surviving will run 2:04's.. AlSal has 2 who he needs fit so has to be much more conservative.
But Nike will want Farah dominating the track so I dont think he'll fully switch. I think he's pride was hurt yesterday but he worked hard.
It'll be interesting who goes for the commonwealth marathon, Andi Jones ran 2:16:57 or so last week but now 2 more english went sub 2:17 last week, including steve way.. then their are the olympic marathoners who may or may not throw their hat in.. I doubt Mo would. But there are afew with 2:15's from 2013 and now farah and thompson..
In reply to IainRUK:
Salazar does seem to get a lot of stick from the US athletics fraternity. I read an article after the Olympics which, whilst claiming to be a celebration of Radisha's 800m, was actually the author slagging off Salazar, Farah and Rupp. I'll try and find it.
Salazar does seem to get a lot of stick from the US athletics fraternity. I read an article after the Olympics which, whilst claiming to be a celebration of Radisha's 800m, was actually the author slagging off Salazar, Farah and Rupp. I'll try and find it.
In reply to The New NickB: what were the 10k and 20k splits for the lead group? Were they that fast compared to any other modern race?
Tactically the marathon has changed in the last fine years. Halfs are raced like extra long 10k's, and the full is getting treated like an 'old half'. Also the number of people running in very fast groups has gotten a lot bigger, so sitting back and waiting for everyone below up is risky
Honesty id say it was a good rather than spectacular debut. Jonesy debuted 2.8.05 in windy conditions
Tactically the marathon has changed in the last fine years. Halfs are raced like extra long 10k's, and the full is getting treated like an 'old half'. Also the number of people running in very fast groups has gotten a lot bigger, so sitting back and waiting for everyone below up is risky
Honesty id say it was a good rather than spectacular debut. Jonesy debuted 2.8.05 in windy conditions
In reply to The New NickB:
Don't forget the Greatest woman distance runner of all time only !!! finished 3rd in the womens race ,not much being said about her ..If Mo hadn't done what he has in the past he would have been happy with his time ...
Don't forget the Greatest woman distance runner of all time only !!! finished 3rd in the womens race ,not much being said about her ..If Mo hadn't done what he has in the past he would have been happy with his time ...
In reply to The New NickB:
Sorry to go slightly off topic (but what *has* he done on grit??), and knowing nothing about these things, how far are we off a sub 2 hour marathon?
Sorry to go slightly off topic (but what *has* he done on grit??), and knowing nothing about these things, how far are we off a sub 2 hour marathon?
In reply to victorclimber:
Apparently the woman who came 20th (from Sierra Leone) has gone missing, not been seen since
Apparently the woman who came 20th (from Sierra Leone) has gone missing, not been seen since
In reply to Nic:
3 minutes and 24 seconds. Radcliffe's 2:15:25 is considered to be equivalent to a man running sub 2, so I guess it just needs the right athlete.
> how far are we off a sub 2 hour marathon?
3 minutes and 24 seconds. Radcliffe's 2:15:25 is considered to be equivalent to a man running sub 2, so I guess it just needs the right athlete.
Post edited at 10:04
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
this is very very common...
> Apparently the woman who came 20th (from Sierra Leone) has gone missing, not been seen since
this is very very common...
In reply to victorclimber:
Radcliffe was 3rd?
> Don't forget the Greatest woman distance runner of all time only !!! finished 3rd in the womens race ,not much being said about her ..If Mo hadn't done what he has in the past he would have been happy with his time ...
Radcliffe was 3rd?
In reply to The New NickB:
when you look at the winning times that time just stands out.. the world's best are a good 5 minutes off where Radcliffe was.. I still think she can get back to being top 5 standard.
> 3 minutes and 24 seconds. Radcliffe's 2:15:25 is considered to be equivalent to a man running sub 2, so I guess it just needs the right athlete.
when you look at the winning times that time just stands out.. the world's best are a good 5 minutes off where Radcliffe was.. I still think she can get back to being top 5 standard.
In reply to IainRUK:
Blimey, I've just had a look at the records. Paula still has the top three fastest women's marathons of all time and her 2.15.25 is 2 mins 55sec faster than anyone else has ever gone, and this was done 11 years ago. This must make her the most dominant British athlete this century, and makes the micky taking she received for a few failures seem very unjustified.
> when you look at the winning times that time just stands out.. the world's best are a good 5 minutes off where Radcliffe was.. I still think she can get back to being top 5 standard.
Blimey, I've just had a look at the records. Paula still has the top three fastest women's marathons of all time and her 2.15.25 is 2 mins 55sec faster than anyone else has ever gone, and this was done 11 years ago. This must make her the most dominant British athlete this century, and makes the micky taking she received for a few failures seem very unjustified.
In reply to mountain.martin:
Its incredible how good she was, just unlucky in that she had injuries or had olympics in heat so never did well in the big ones at the marathon but she was so good its untrue..
But thats the UK, build them up, knock them down.. Mo has been the golden child for a good 5 years or so, so I think he disappointed some in that he toughed it out and had a solid run..
Its incredible how good she was, just unlucky in that she had injuries or had olympics in heat so never did well in the big ones at the marathon but she was so good its untrue..
But thats the UK, build them up, knock them down.. Mo has been the golden child for a good 5 years or so, so I think he disappointed some in that he toughed it out and had a solid run..
In reply to mountain.martin:
Her 2:15:25 is the greatest performance by a British athlete ever, in any sport. You could possibly drop the British bit from that sentence.
Her 2:15:25 is the greatest performance by a British athlete ever, in any sport. You could possibly drop the British bit from that sentence.
In reply to The New NickB:
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that- a remarkable performance
I've always considered seb coe's 1.41.73 in the 800m in 1981 to be the greatest British athletics performance. 33 years later, there's still only 2 people have ever run faster. Mind blowing,
Gregor
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that- a remarkable performance
I've always considered seb coe's 1.41.73 in the 800m in 1981 to be the greatest British athletics performance. 33 years later, there's still only 2 people have ever run faster. Mind blowing,
Gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I remember my Dad saying to me Coe's record would never be beaten, it lasted 15 years.
I thought the same about Johnson's 19:32 200m, it lasted 13 years.
Beamon's long jump record lasted 23 years then when twice in an afternoon, 23 years on that record still stands and global long jump standards are 50cm short of the WR.
Edward's 18:29 is 19 years old.
I remember my Dad saying to me Coe's record would never be beaten, it lasted 15 years.
I thought the same about Johnson's 19:32 200m, it lasted 13 years.
Beamon's long jump record lasted 23 years then when twice in an afternoon, 23 years on that record still stands and global long jump standards are 50cm short of the WR.
Edward's 18:29 is 19 years old.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I should add, the men's 800m was by far the best race at London 2012 from a neutral perspective, Rudisha was something else.
I should add, the men's 800m was by far the best race at London 2012 from a neutral perspective, Rudisha was something else.
In reply to The New NickB:
yes- i agree. he just seemed to run flat out from the start, it was like watching a two lap 400m rather than a middle distance event, if that makes any sense.
i didnt realise edwards' record was still standing, incredible.
how long will bolt's 100/200 records stand for?
cheers
gregor
yes- i agree. he just seemed to run flat out from the start, it was like watching a two lap 400m rather than a middle distance event, if that makes any sense.
i didnt realise edwards' record was still standing, incredible.
how long will bolt's 100/200 records stand for?
cheers
gregor
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