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Hi
Is there a scenario where you could not use a Ropeman or a Tibloc instead of a prussik? I am debating what to carry - I own a Ropeman but it's quite heavy for what it is. I've looked at Tiblocs but not used them. I've always carried a couple of prussiks.
What is the ideal combination of prussik, Ropeman & Tibloc for adventurous trad?
Thanks
Is there a scenario where you could not use a Ropeman or a Tibloc instead of a prussik? I am debating what to carry - I own a Ropeman but it's quite heavy for what it is. I've looked at Tiblocs but not used them. I've always carried a couple of prussiks.
What is the ideal combination of prussik, Ropeman & Tibloc for adventurous trad?
Thanks
In reply to iamaclimber:
Your chances of getting a Tibloc to bite on both strands of a double rope are not good, should you need to.
Your chances of getting a Tibloc to bite on both strands of a double rope are not good, should you need to.
In reply to iamaclimber:
Just keep carrying the slings.
Light and cheap. About fifteen different knots to use if necessary.
Also useful as thread or spike runners, abseil tat or abseil back up.
> I've always carried a couple of prussiks.
Just keep carrying the slings.
Light and cheap. About fifteen different knots to use if necessary.
Also useful as thread or spike runners, abseil tat or abseil back up.
In reply to iamaclimber:
Ropemans are great if you don't mind the weight,
Prussiks are bling if light is your thing,
But Tiblocs are dope if you want to f*ck up your rope.
Ropemans are great if you don't mind the weight,
Prussiks are bling if light is your thing,
But Tiblocs are dope if you want to f*ck up your rope.
3
1
In reply to iamaclimber:
A ropeman is great if you're only using a single rope, if you're using double ropes just carry two prussiks.
A ropeman is great if you're only using a single rope, if you're using double ropes just carry two prussiks.
In reply to Removed User:
I think he knows all too well!
Just take prussiks unless you explicitly plan or ascending, hauling etc. They're just lighter than all the options, kind to your rope and far more versatile.
I think he knows all too well!
Just take prussiks unless you explicitly plan or ascending, hauling etc. They're just lighter than all the options, kind to your rope and far more versatile.
In reply to crayefish:
And potentially lethal. I binned mine after one very scary use.
> But Tiblocs are dope if you want to f*ck up your rope.
And potentially lethal. I binned mine after one very scary use.
In reply to Eddie1234:
A prussic will work ok on double ropes if need be I think? I haven't tried ascending that way, but using as a lower brake/failsafe while abbing, they certainly work very well over double ropes. Wouldn't be surprised if they worked that way for ascending too.
> A ropeman is great if you're only using a single rope, if you're using double ropes just carry two prussiks.
A prussic will work ok on double ropes if need be I think? I haven't tried ascending that way, but using as a lower brake/failsafe while abbing, they certainly work very well over double ropes. Wouldn't be surprised if they worked that way for ascending too.
In reply to iamaclimber:
Two prusiks....versatile and can be used for a variety of other things at need.
forget the ropeman and especially forget the tibloc....I've seen a sheath torn up badly by one.
Two prusiks....versatile and can be used for a variety of other things at need.
forget the ropeman and especially forget the tibloc....I've seen a sheath torn up badly by one.
In reply to iamaclimber: When UK Mountaineering Instructors are tested on problem solving and improvised rescue scenarios, the expectation is that they can cope in any situation with no more than three prusik loops in addition to a normal rack.
That said, I generally carry 2x short prusiks and 1x Tibloc as there are a few situations where I would like the extra efficiency of the Tibloc. Some equipment can easily be mis-used and Tiblocs unfortunately fall into this category. When loaded gradually there is negligible chance of rope damage but this requires care in use, including when ascending and situations with high shock loads need to be avoided.
A couple of final points:
- Mammut Contact 8mm slings are TEN times more expensive than 5mm prusik loops. I therefore carry slings to use as slings, and prusiks to use a prusiks. Saving the 19 grammes which each prusik loop weighs, does not seem a sensible trade-off against the risk of damaging my expensive slings.
- I also normally carry a longer un-knotted length (c.5metres) of 5mm cord and a knife. The tat is invariably used for abseil anchors, but it means additional prusiks can be made easily, if needed.
HTH
That said, I generally carry 2x short prusiks and 1x Tibloc as there are a few situations where I would like the extra efficiency of the Tibloc. Some equipment can easily be mis-used and Tiblocs unfortunately fall into this category. When loaded gradually there is negligible chance of rope damage but this requires care in use, including when ascending and situations with high shock loads need to be avoided.
A couple of final points:
- Mammut Contact 8mm slings are TEN times more expensive than 5mm prusik loops. I therefore carry slings to use as slings, and prusiks to use a prusiks. Saving the 19 grammes which each prusik loop weighs, does not seem a sensible trade-off against the risk of damaging my expensive slings.
- I also normally carry a longer un-knotted length (c.5metres) of 5mm cord and a knife. The tat is invariably used for abseil anchors, but it means additional prusiks can be made easily, if needed.
HTH
2
In reply to iamaclimber:
Guide plates like the Reverso can be used as ascenders. So if thats all you have, you can improvise the foot loop using the rope itself and get yourself out of the shit. Obviously it works with two ropes too.
Guide plates like the Reverso can be used as ascenders. So if thats all you have, you can improvise the foot loop using the rope itself and get yourself out of the shit. Obviously it works with two ropes too.
In reply to iamaclimber:
i own a tibloc and a ropeman 1
tibloc has been used once in anger
ropeman has never been used when it mattered
ascending with a tibloc in combination with an atc xp-guide was still a pain in the neck but far easier than using 2 prussiks
carrying cord will always be more versatile than carrying a ropeman or tibloc.
i seem to recall an andy kirkpatrick article where he talks about using a ropeman as a runner when simul climbing
http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/ten_ways_to_speed_up_your_climbin...
personally i would carry a device with a guide mode + prussiks/cord + a tibloc.
the tibloc is super light and well worth its weight if you ever need to use it
i own a tibloc and a ropeman 1
tibloc has been used once in anger
ropeman has never been used when it mattered
ascending with a tibloc in combination with an atc xp-guide was still a pain in the neck but far easier than using 2 prussiks
carrying cord will always be more versatile than carrying a ropeman or tibloc.
i seem to recall an andy kirkpatrick article where he talks about using a ropeman as a runner when simul climbing
http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/ten_ways_to_speed_up_your_climbin...
personally i would carry a device with a guide mode + prussiks/cord + a tibloc.
the tibloc is super light and well worth its weight if you ever need to use it
In reply to Jonny2vests:
You're not wrong.
In the absence a guide plate, there are also hitches that can made made out of the rope that will work on the rope, and indeed much smaller diametre cord than the rope itself. I've seen people hitch 3mm cord with 11mm rope.
However, none of these are particulary useful when you are dangling in space on your rope. Not getting a guideplate nor a bunch of ropeslack there.
You're not wrong.
In the absence a guide plate, there are also hitches that can made made out of the rope that will work on the rope, and indeed much smaller diametre cord than the rope itself. I've seen people hitch 3mm cord with 11mm rope.
However, none of these are particulary useful when you are dangling in space on your rope. Not getting a guideplate nor a bunch of ropeslack there.
Post edited at 06:35
In reply to iamaclimber:
Thanks
When is a Ropeman useful to have over a Tibloc or Prussik or Guide plate?
Also, when is a Tibloc better to use than a prussik?
Thanks
Thanks
When is a Ropeman useful to have over a Tibloc or Prussik or Guide plate?
Also, when is a Tibloc better to use than a prussik?
Thanks
In reply to iamaclimber:
Well, as wolfie says, you can't put a guide plate on without first un tensioning the rope.
There's less waisted energy with a ropeman vs a prussik. As for tiblocs, too teethy for me.
Well, as wolfie says, you can't put a guide plate on without first un tensioning the rope.
There's less waisted energy with a ropeman vs a prussik. As for tiblocs, too teethy for me.
In reply to iamaclimber:
Microtraxion works as a pulley and ascender, is lighter than a ropeman Mk 2.
Microtraxion works as a pulley and ascender, is lighter than a ropeman Mk 2.
In reply to iamaclimber:
Tiblocs cannot be released under load, some prusiks knots can. In ANY situation where you may want/need to release under load, a French prusik will be far better.
In most other ascending and progress capture situations a Tibloc can be more efficient due to much less slippage. However they are still less easy to pull-on than full-size handled ascenders so it may be that for ascending a Bachman prusik is still the better option.
> Also, when is a Tibloc better to use than a prussik?
Tiblocs cannot be released under load, some prusiks knots can. In ANY situation where you may want/need to release under load, a French prusik will be far better.
In most other ascending and progress capture situations a Tibloc can be more efficient due to much less slippage. However they are still less easy to pull-on than full-size handled ascenders so it may be that for ascending a Bachman prusik is still the better option.
In reply to needvert:
Micro traxion is indeed quite awesome, however I still wouldn't carry it normally. It's pretty spendy too.
However it's silly light and efficient. A go to for crevasse rescue, hauling, or lighter ascending work.
Micro traxion is indeed quite awesome, however I still wouldn't carry it normally. It's pretty spendy too.
However it's silly light and efficient. A go to for crevasse rescue, hauling, or lighter ascending work.
In reply to iamaclimber:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9NzcqoLQwY
If you're being lazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9NzcqoLQwY
If you're being lazy.
Post edited at 18:09
In reply to iamaclimber:
A tibloc and a rope man only hold in one direction. A prusik in both. One common reason to really need to prusik is when the ab rope gets stuck. You need to be on prusiks then in case the rope frees itself as these will still hold when pulled in the opposite direction.
A micro trax is so useful and much better than a rope man. If you want to carry something mechanical, then there's a lot you can do with it.
A tibloc and a rope man only hold in one direction. A prusik in both. One common reason to really need to prusik is when the ab rope gets stuck. You need to be on prusiks then in case the rope frees itself as these will still hold when pulled in the opposite direction.
A micro trax is so useful and much better than a rope man. If you want to carry something mechanical, then there's a lot you can do with it.
In reply to David Coley:
I'm having trouble visualizing this, could you explain the rope being pulled in opposite direction bit?
> A tibloc and a rope man only hold in one direction. A prusik in both. One common reason to really need to prusik is when the ab rope gets stuck. You need to be on prusiks then in case the rope frees itself as these will still hold when pulled in the opposite direction.
I'm having trouble visualizing this, could you explain the rope being pulled in opposite direction bit?
In reply to iamaclimber:
For example, you're on a 2 pitch abseil. You've just abbed down the first pitch and you're at the stance. You attempt to pull your ropes down and they get caught.
You have to prusik up the ropes to try and retrieve them. Whilst you're midway up the rope falls down with you attached to it via your prusiks. The prusiks are now upside down and they should hold (providing they don't snap - I don't know whether a dynamic fall would be enough to snap the cord).
For example, you're on a 2 pitch abseil. You've just abbed down the first pitch and you're at the stance. You attempt to pull your ropes down and they get caught.
You have to prusik up the ropes to try and retrieve them. Whilst you're midway up the rope falls down with you attached to it via your prusiks. The prusiks are now upside down and they should hold (providing they don't snap - I don't know whether a dynamic fall would be enough to snap the cord).
Post edited at 02:05
In reply to blackreaver:
If the FF is low enough and you're on dynamic rope... You've got a fighting chance. I would however move a clovehitch with me as a backup.
If the FF is low enough and you're on dynamic rope... You've got a fighting chance. I would however move a clovehitch with me as a backup.
In reply to needvert:
As the others have said, when the rope comes free.
Other places a prusik is needed rather than ropeman etc (I guess these have all been covered above):
escaping the system - to bundle the anchor lines together
when tied as a french prusik (although a ropeman can sometimes be used in this way)
when used as a thread
ab tat
to stop a rope reverse feeding in a silent partner - but now we have reached the esoteric.
> I'm having trouble visualizing this, could you explain the rope being pulled in opposite direction bit?
As the others have said, when the rope comes free.
Other places a prusik is needed rather than ropeman etc (I guess these have all been covered above):
escaping the system - to bundle the anchor lines together
when tied as a french prusik (although a ropeman can sometimes be used in this way)
when used as a thread
ab tat
to stop a rope reverse feeding in a silent partner - but now we have reached the esoteric.
Gotcha. Was imagining an ascension with both strands. A single strand climb up sounds positively scary, unless placing pro it'll be a FF2 with (possibly) only two 5mm prussiks to hold you. That clove hitch sounds a good idea. I do wonder how much a 3 wrap 5mm prussik will hold, might look for test results later.
In reply to iamaclimber:
All interesting replies. We're not really seeing any 'advantages' to carrying a Ropeman or a Tibloc though?
All interesting replies. We're not really seeing any 'advantages' to carrying a Ropeman or a Tibloc though?
In reply to needvert:
Petzl tested a 7mm prusik in a fall (can't remember the FF), it held, but then 7mm isn't 5mm.
Petzl tested a 7mm prusik in a fall (can't remember the FF), it held, but then 7mm isn't 5mm.
In reply to iamaclimber:
Much, much quicker to prusik with. So if you think you might be prusiking carry them. One common example: you climb 6b, your mate climbs 7b. You do a 20 pitch route which is mainly less than 6b, but with a couple of 7b moves. You plan to prusik these.
> All interesting replies. We're not really seeing any 'advantages' to carrying a Ropeman or a Tibloc though?
Much, much quicker to prusik with. So if you think you might be prusiking carry them. One common example: you climb 6b, your mate climbs 7b. You do a 20 pitch route which is mainly less than 6b, but with a couple of 7b moves. You plan to prusik these.
In reply to iamaclimber:
If there is any chance I might have to escape up an abseil rope (not unknown as I live in Cwall and am a coward!) I carry a croll chest jammer - not massively heavy and tried and tested.
If there is any chance I might have to escape up an abseil rope (not unknown as I live in Cwall and am a coward!) I carry a croll chest jammer - not massively heavy and tried and tested.
In reply to Jonny2vests:
While you are right it is possible, have you ever tried using a guide plate for that purpose? It is incredibly hard work, even when setting up a pulley system from the upper ascender. I would much rather use a prusik as the waist ascender and a tibloc as the upper if push really came to shove. Neither scenario is obviously perfect, now if I had something like a grigri or a trango cinch I'd be smiling when combined with a tibloc
> Guide plates like the Reverso can be used as ascenders. So if thats all you have, you can improvise the foot loop using the rope itself and get yourself out of the shit. Obviously it works with two ropes too.
While you are right it is possible, have you ever tried using a guide plate for that purpose? It is incredibly hard work, even when setting up a pulley system from the upper ascender. I would much rather use a prusik as the waist ascender and a tibloc as the upper if push really came to shove. Neither scenario is obviously perfect, now if I had something like a grigri or a trango cinch I'd be smiling when combined with a tibloc
In reply to Hannes:
Off the top of my head, I'd have probably gone for the other way around - Tibloc at the waist, Bachman above with a long sling as my foot ascender.
Having not played around ascending ropes for a couple of years that is not based on practical testing and I'm always curious about what other people do...
> I would much rather use a prusik as the waist ascender and a tibloc as the upper if push really came to shove.
Off the top of my head, I'd have probably gone for the other way around - Tibloc at the waist, Bachman above with a long sling as my foot ascender.
Having not played around ascending ropes for a couple of years that is not based on practical testing and I'm always curious about what other people do...
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Only reason I prefer the tibloc up high is because it is easier to adjust it and get it to seat without shredding the rope. If I had a ropeman and a prusik I'd rather have the prusik up high. I'm just very wary of the tibloc as it is well known to shred ropes if not treated with caution.
> Off the top of my head, I'd have probably gone for the other way around - Tibloc at the waist, Bachman above with a long sling as my foot ascender.
> Having not played around ascending ropes for a couple of years that is not based on practical testing and I'm always curious about what other people do...
Only reason I prefer the tibloc up high is because it is easier to adjust it and get it to seat without shredding the rope. If I had a ropeman and a prusik I'd rather have the prusik up high. I'm just very wary of the tibloc as it is well known to shred ropes if not treated with caution.
In reply to Hannes:
I'd just take two prussiks over a tibloc. They're not that bad, the tibloc just slides around until weighted. Definitely wouldn't go near that for the waist, if you accidently unweight it and sit back down you might be going for a ride/severly damage your rope. Not great if one is using thinner ropes, doubles or anything like this, how well it works is carabiner dependent too.
However, with icy ropes one should probably carry something with teeth.
I'd just take two prussiks over a tibloc. They're not that bad, the tibloc just slides around until weighted. Definitely wouldn't go near that for the waist, if you accidently unweight it and sit back down you might be going for a ride/severly damage your rope. Not great if one is using thinner ropes, doubles or anything like this, how well it works is carabiner dependent too.
However, with icy ropes one should probably carry something with teeth.
Post edited at 17:16
In reply to Hannes:
I have found that a reverso is a joke for this with a 10mm rope, but fine on a 7.7mm ice line.
> While you are right it is possible, have you ever tried using a guide plate for that purpose? It is incredibly hard work, even when setting up a pulley system from the upper ascender.
I have found that a reverso is a joke for this with a 10mm rope, but fine on a 7.7mm ice line.
In reply to iamaclimber:
One really cool use of a reverso to prusik is in converting an abseil into an ascent when you rap a few metres passed the chains at the next station as it takes less than a 3 seconds to rig. This is shown at multipitchclimbing.com in chapter 11, just search for "converting an abseil".
One really cool use of a reverso to prusik is in converting an abseil into an ascent when you rap a few metres passed the chains at the next station as it takes less than a 3 seconds to rig. This is shown at multipitchclimbing.com in chapter 11, just search for "converting an abseil".
In reply to Hannes:
Yes, I have tried it and yes, I agree it's a bugger. And you have to unweight the rope to get it on.
Yes, I have tried it and yes, I agree it's a bugger. And you have to unweight the rope to get it on.
In reply to Jonny2vests:
Just a note on getting a reverso into prusik mode when swinging in space, e.g. having fallen off under a roof.
1. place foot prusik cord above you on the rope
2. tie an overhand in the prusik cord near the prusik knot
3. stand in the prusik and clip a krab between your belay loop and the foot prusik just above the overhand
4. sit down
This should leave you sitting in your harness with a nice loop of slack in the main rope to get the reverso on.
Petzl did have a neat video of this on their site but I can't find it.
Just a note on getting a reverso into prusik mode when swinging in space, e.g. having fallen off under a roof.
1. place foot prusik cord above you on the rope
2. tie an overhand in the prusik cord near the prusik knot
3. stand in the prusik and clip a krab between your belay loop and the foot prusik just above the overhand
4. sit down
This should leave you sitting in your harness with a nice loop of slack in the main rope to get the reverso on.
Petzl did have a neat video of this on their site but I can't find it.
In reply to Hannes:
Cheers. That makes good sense.
> Only reason I prefer the tibloc up high is because it is easier to adjust it and get it to seat without shredding the rope. If I had a ropeman and a prusik I'd rather have the prusik up high.
Cheers. That makes good sense.
In reply to David Coley:
Steve Long did a 'how to generate slack at the end' video with a ropeman, never seen a petzl version.
Steve Long did a 'how to generate slack at the end' video with a ropeman, never seen a petzl version.
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