UKC

The backstory: I've been filming my lad as he works towards putting a file of evidence together for his AS in P.E. He's elected to go for the rock climbing option.
I filmed him climbing at Robin Proctor's Scar (Norber Scar) this weekend for a 'sport element'. He was pointed at a line of bolts that weren't in the Yorks Limestone guide by a couple there as a 'decent grade 5 warm-up'.

He looked at the guide and reckoned that it was 'Windy Wall' HVS 4c but with 6 bolts and a lower-off. I agree.

The route Windy Wall that is in the Yorks Lime guide of 2005 (F.A the venerable Allan Austin and Frank Wilkinson in 1967) does not now appear in the UKC log for the crag. A route called 'Gone With The Wind' ('F.A.' Bob Larkin, Dave Musgrove 2009) does. Their lines seem to be indistinguishable.

My lad has to write a piece on the 'ethical codes' followed by his chosen sport and the transfer of 'Windy Wall' to 'Gone With The Wind' would make an interesting paragraph or two.

Bob, Dave; I'm guessing you bolted it. Any thoughts about the motivation for that bolting?

Anyone with any other information? Or opinion?

I should make clear that my lad is firmly in the 'sport for all' camp and can't quite see why there is such a fuss about bolting up old routes.

Cheers,

Andy

In reply to Andy Say:

I can't offer any relevant info, nor a particularly well-informed opinion (since I don't take any interest in sport climbing) but just to say that I really hope this thread doesn't descend into daft absolutist ranting.

With the bolting of previous trad routes, it is all about context and each case on its merits. The positions at either extreme don't make any sense: preserve crap old trad routes that haven't had an ascent in 30 years gwhen they'd make a decent sport route which people would enjoy - why? Bolt classic trad (or impinge on classic trad with nearby bolts) - I think not!

Also, if he doesn't already, I think it would be helpful for your lad to understand what the "fuss" is about re. bolting up old routes when people still want to climb those old routes!

In reply to Jon Stewart:



Jon,

All opinions welcome and I'll try to keep mine out of it! I'm partly intrigued, I guess, why a route (by someone like Austin) should simply 'disappear' and a 'new' one appear in its place.

Agreed: an understanding of the 'fuss' is good.

In reply to Andy Say:

It's an interesting question whether the fact that Austin put up the route should have a bearing on whether it gets retro'd or not. Does it give the route more 'value', whatever that is?

In reply to Andy Say:

Do you think changing the name is an ethical issue here? (and of course RPS used to be Norber Scar) Several of the routes here have been retro-bolted.

I used to disagree with it but now think, given some consensus and thought, it can be done acceptably without being the thin end of the wedge....or maybe I'm getting old!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I think it's quite complicated! Without seeking out my old Yorks Limestone guide I'd struggle to work out exactly how many original trad routes have been retro'ed on this crag. Some have retained their old name (e.g. Marshall Plan; an old Dave Cronshaw route I think).

I understand the case for bolting unpopular crags/routes to make them more popular. I'm not sure about bolting a route 'means' that the original routes ceases to exist.

I always used to think it was quite funny that the crag name got changed just as the drills came out; almost as if the bolting wasn't really being done at Norber at all!

In reply to Andy Say:

I can see the virtual tumbleweed drifting across this thread

I shall tell my lad that that retrobolting existing trad routes put up by folks like Allan Austin and also renaming them and claiming a first ascent of that 'new' route simply doesn't raise an eyebrow. He probably won't be surprised.

Ciao

In reply to Andy Say:

I'm interested but I'm afraid I am not the droid you are looking for.

In reply to Andy Say:

Hasn't half of Yorkshire Limestone been grid bolted these days?

In reply to Andy Say:


Interesting - a few years ago I'm sure there would have been some heated discussion

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Its the getting thicker of Ken Wilsons 'thin end of the wedge'.

In reply to Al Evans:

Indeed. In fact renaming existing free non-bolted routes is something more normally associated with dubious foreign practices.

To Andy Say:

I'd suggest to your lad that there are other places to eat than McDonald's.

In reply to Removed User:

No.

In reply to Andy Say:

I think Musgrove et al have been questioned about this sort of thing before. I'll see if I can find anything..

In reply to Andy Say:

Why not mail Dave directly via his profile?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=140

In reply to Al Evans:

The Chickens are coming home to roost Al ...Ethics are being eroded all the time but if its whats the majority wants ?

In reply to victorclimber:


What you ignore is that this majority includes many passionate trad climbers who none the less don't have a penchant for crap, overgrown, loose, poorly protected routes that don't get climbed and for good reason.

In reply to Bob:

Yorkshire Limestone now the equivalent of Makky D's. Love it.

There might be a bit of spinning going on in graves, mind.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Seem to remember you used similar terms for Gogarth

In reply to Bulls Crack:


When and why would I say that about Gogarth? Some angles might be unflattering (I still find it hard to believe that there are climbable routes on Upper Tier, other than the stripe of clean rock that is The Strand) but I've never said anything rude about Big G.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Or are we talking about Gogarth the route? That is a bit crap and overgrown, but people definitely still do it!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Maybe I must be confusing you with someone else - in which case I apologise!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Certainly are. I love the brilliant solid routes, I love the chossfests, hell, I even love the 3 pitches of steep grass out of Easter Island Gully!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Has it occured to you that many of them may not be 'crap,overgrown,loose' if they were regularly climbed, and will now almost certainly be better protected than when they were first done? Just saying the emphasis has moved from them to the safer propositions that are bolted next door.

In reply to Al Evans:

I guess they might not be, but short of bolting them, how do you get people to climb esoteric trad limestone? I don't think that, short of the classics, inland limestone has much going for it and for much of the mediocrity out there it's probably inevitable that the routes will be waved goodbye to. Either to nature, or to bolts.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Some neglected routes can be given a new lease of life with a bit of a clean up and the odd replacement peg. But then they need publicising and perhaps a good action photo to encourage people to go and take a look. If you climb something esoteric please write a report in the UKC logbook to give others a bit of inspiration.

So if you're down our way (S Devon) why not take a look at Ground Control, Space Odyssey, White Rasta, Pigs might Fly at Chudleigh - all have been recently uncovered from ivy. Sanctuary wall has been getting a bit of attention with Free the Spirit, Caribbean Blue, Incubus Direct, Up in Arms all re equipped.

I'm looking forward to visiting a shiny new Avon in the summer too. Well done all involved.

In reply to Kafoozalem:

Isn't shiny the problem at Avon?!

In reply to Kafoozalem:


Good point!



I'm sure they're lovely routes, but when I'm down in the SW I tend to gravitate towards the superlative sea cliff classics, rather than inland limestone, for obvious reasons. (There's a chance I'll move down in future years, in which case I might well be learning to love the forgotten gems of Chudleigh etc).