/ Less common knots

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needvert on 22 Apr 2014
Two bends have been on my mind lately:

The DT-FK, a variation on tying a double overhand, having an advantage of sliding over an edge nicely like an EDK:
http://www.gudelius.de/spst.htm

And the zeppelin bend:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
There's somewhat of a discussion here were at least one person considers it 'suitable for life' - http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1902.45 (I suspect the Roo in the thread is the same as the Zeppelin.html page author)
It looks pretty easy to untie too - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Givv9cBB_Hw

The DT-FK seems secure (no matter how badly I try to tie it) enough I'd be happy enough to rap on it. The zeppelin I'm less convinced on (probably due to one of its big 'positive' characteristics - being easy to untie) though can't find any damning opinions of it.
Mr Lopez - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

The zeppelin bend 'may' loosen under light cyclical loading a-la bowline, specially with stiff ropes. Other than that the only other issue is that it can be easy to get wrong though it's got a distinctive look. I used it for a while 'just because', and then reverted back to more common knots for no apparent reason.
Post edited at 14:06
Bernard Shakey - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

This week I have been using a directional figure of 8 quite a bit, very useful
Jonny2vests - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Bernard Shakey:

What's that then?
highclimber - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> What's that then?

I share your inquisitiveness...
splat2million on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8directional/index.php

I can't think of a situation I'd want to use this instead of an alpine butterfly which I'm more familiar with.
Bernard Shakey - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Hi Jon, can be useful for hauling and the like,
Mr Lopez - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to splat2million:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> I can't think of a situation I'd want to use this instead of an alpine butterfly which I'm more familiar with.

Easier and faster to tie, adjust and untie, specially after a stiff load. So from hanging stuff (or yourself) from a rope that may have tension or load, to hauling or trailing gear, setting up equalised anchors, etc.

Flip side of the coin is that if the direction of the load reverses and that side strand is tied or have tension, the knot collapses into a slipknot, like it would happen if you tie into it as the middle person in a 3 way team and the 'wrong' person catches your fall, so definitely not for that.

This "collapsing into a slipknot" however is what makes it easy and fast to adjust and untie.
Choss on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

Better than a bowLine for rope to waist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_bowline
bpmclimb - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Easier and faster to tie,

Maybe you haven't tied enough Alpine Butterflies! I think it's one of the quickest of all knots to tie (takes me between 2 and 3 seconds). It's also very easy to adjust. And it's a huge plus that it's stable regardless of direction of loading - one less thing to worry about is always welcome!

crayefish - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:
> Two bends have been on my mind lately:

> The DT-FK, a variation on tying a double overhand, having an advantage of sliding over an edge nicely like an EDK:

But I bet it is as difficult to untie as a double fish after loading... (especially with cold hands etc) hence why the EDK is so good. Unless you can confirm otherwise?

Interesting knot thought!
Post edited at 19:23
Mr Lopez - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to Mr Lopez)
>
> [...]
>
> Maybe you haven't tied enough Alpine Butterflies!

Oh, i can assure you i've tied my fair share of them.

bpmclimb - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Oh, i can assure you i've tied my fair share of them.

In which case you must know that it's twist, twist and through. Hard to imagine anything significantly quicker. However, I'm sure you know best how long you take to tie various knots, so I'm not saying you're mistaken - but either you're rather slow at tying the AB or your directional bowline must be like shit off a stick :)
Mr Lopez - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:


Tried tying a butterfly with weight hanging off the rope? Even just the weight of the rope itself hanging off the edge? Wiry ropes? Twisty "i want to be a snake" ropes? In anything but 'ideal conditions' it really isn't a 2 second twist, twist and through.

How about tying a butterfly leaving a 5 metre long loop? Can you do that in 2 seconds, with a wiry, twisty, "i want to be a snake", wet rope, with 60m of it hanging over the edge? Can you then readjust that 5m loop into 7m to equalise an anchor in 2 seconds?

These are the situations where an inline 8 excels at and the butterfly sucks. But if we are talking tying knots with a bit of string from the comfort of the armchair then yes, i agree with you, it's hard to imagine any knot being significantly quicker (or slower) to tie than, well, any other knot :p
Post edited at 20:10
bpmclimb - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Sounds like we'll have to agree to differ, because I think you're overstating your case to a ridiculous extent. I'll continue to use the AB for a variety of scenarios (except the string and armchair, which is probably the only one I haven't done), for the reasons already stated. And given equal conditions, I can tie it more quickly than many other commonly used knots. Maybe you can't - fair enough, let's leave it at that.
Bob on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:

I nominate the Bowline.

used by those who do know better to confuse oiks who don't.
Mr Lopez - on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:

> (In reply to Mr Lopez)
>
> I think you're overstating your case to a ridiculous extent.

I wish, those are commonplace situations i deal with at work every single day. Just another day at the office
Post edited at 23:14
needvert on 22 Apr 2014
In reply to Bob:

Speaking of bowlines...Never really got into tying in with them other than this rethreaded variant:
http://www.mountainproject.com/images/66/2/107476602_large_5a7402.jpg
David Coley - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> How about tying a butterfly leaving a 5 metre long loop? Can you do that in 2 seconds, with a wiry, twisty, "i want to be a snake", wet rope, with 60m of it hanging over the edge? Can you then readjust that 5m loop into 7m to equalise an anchor in 2 seconds?

> These are the situations where an inline 8 excels at and the butterfly sucks.

One concern I have with the inline fig8 used in this way is what happens if one of the 2 anchor points fails, or the knot gets inverted by an edge.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Tried tying a butterfly with weight hanging off the rope? Even just the weight of the rope itself hanging off the edge? Wiry ropes? Twisty "i want to be a snake" ropes? In anything but 'ideal conditions' it really isn't a 2 second twist, twist and through.

> How about tying a butterfly leaving a 5 metre long loop? Can you do that in 2 seconds, with a wiry, twisty, "i want to be a snake", wet rope, with 60m of it hanging over the edge? Can you then readjust that 5m loop into 7m to equalise an anchor in 2 seconds?

> These are the situations where an inline 8 excels at and the butterfly sucks. But if we are talking tying knots with a bit of string from the comfort of the armchair then yes, i agree with you, it's hard to imagine any knot being significantly quicker (or slower) to tie than, well, any other knot :p

"ALPINE BUTTERFLY


The best knot for climbing fixed ropes is the Alpine Butterfly, a very easy knot to tie alpinebutterflyonce you know how but more importantly an even easier knot to untie when its been loaded heavily. It can also be tied easily in the middle of ropes for re-belaying. When you need to untie the knot simply push back the two loops of the knot with your thumbs and this will slacken off the knot. Personally I use this knot for all connections between the rope and its anchors, finding it reliable and easy to use."

I hate armchair climbers like Andy Kirkpatrick. Daring to have opinions on knots. F*cking punter.
needvert on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Kirkpatrick is a great climber, he's done some really ballsy things.

But, Mr Lopez may well have spent more hours on rope. He may even have more advanced skills on rope. (And even if he hasn't, he may still be onto something with the inline foe vs a.b thing.) I'm not sure, I don't know him. But, some of what he says rings true for me.

Might pull out the caving books and play around with the inline FoE, I imagine there's good reason they all mention it.
needvert on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:
Speaking of Kirkpatrick was reading one of his books last night. It suggested tying a FoE on the end of the ab rope you're going to pull and an overhand on the one you won't (...I think).

Never liked the FoE as a stopper knot, seemed to come undone easily when we first got rope. An overhand doesn't and neither does a double overhand.

Then there's Ashley's stopper knot. Had a go bouncing up and down trying to get it to roll or go through my ATC (10mm rope). That was never happening at those loads. I do wonder how it fails.
http://www.animatedknots.com/ashleystopper/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog..


(
Post edited at 04:46
r0x0r.wolfo - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to needvert:
> Kirkpatrick is a great climber, he's done some really ballsy things.

> But, Mr Lopez may well have spent more hours on rope. He may even have more advanced skills on rope. (And even if he hasn't, he may still be onto something with the inline foe vs a.b thing.) I'm not sure, I don't know him. But, some of what he says rings true for me.

> Might pull out the caving books and play around with the inline FoE, I imagine there's good reason they all mention it.

It's nothing to do with whether one knot is actually superior for another.

It's about calling someone an armchair climber the moment you disagree with them. Obviously Andy Kirkpatrick thinks the Alpine Butterfly, to quote him is 'wonderful', is he also an armchair climber?

Now the Alpine butterfly is a very good knot. Quick to tie (in the vast majority of cases). Weighted, iced and "I want to be a snake" rope make all knots more difficult to tie that is true. (I'm glad guides have got technical names for that stuff now by the way!)

It's quick to adjust (once familiar with the knot). I can certainly extend the loop from 5 to 7 meters within 2 seconds (what a strange criteria). It's also about the easiest knot to untie, there's no gains to be made there. It works for people like Andy K because quite often they are rigging ropes that need to be able to take loads from both sides, and I'm sure he manages to tie one fine with the weight of the rope on it too.

If you were struggling to tie it, and you were sure it's only going to be loaded from one direction, sure chuck a inline figure 8 in there, who gives a shit? But if it gets set in the wrong direction for just a moment it's just going to fail, it's not a 'general purpose' knot as it's not stable enough.

The inline figure of eight is best for some rescue situations the preserve the maximum rope strength (over a standard figure eight with the shear forces) and it's also good for hauling from the middle of the rope. Nothing wrong with knowing it and it's sometimes just the ticket because it's genuinely a very good knot for those purposes, rather than being the easiest to tie under conditions X, Y and Z.
Post edited at 11:18
Mr Lopez - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to David Coley:
> (In reply to Mr Lopez)
>
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> One concern I have with the inline fig8 used in this way is what happens if one of the 2 anchor points fails,

Both the loop and the tail are stable when loaded individually, so in case of an anchor failure it'd be no different than using other knot.

There were a series of pull tests done in different configurations, and when pulling by the strands there was some slippage at the loops by ways of the loops getting smaller when close to failure, which was iirc at around 5,000lbs by means of rope breakage. Pulling by the loops failure was by rope breaking at the knots at about the same 5,000lbs with no slippage.

The one limiting factor when using an inline 8 for anchors is the angle, which you really want to keep below 90 degrees.

> or the knot gets inverted by an edge.

The half of the knot opposite the "y" is effectively a fig8 on the bight, so it wouldn't behave any differently if loading that strand as in on an anchor or hauling up.

The loop's half of the knot looks and behaves like a bowline, and when lowering stuff it would theoretically be possible for the turn to catch and capsize given the right conditions and loads. That's however very unlikely, but even in the event it were to happen the loop would simply slide till it's tight.
bpmclimb - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> I wish, those are commonplace situations i deal with at work every single day. Just another day at the office

Sorry, probably didn't express myself clearly. I wasn't doubting that you regularly find yourself in those scenarios (just as you probably didn't seriously mean to suggest that my knowledge of knots is entirely based on the string and armchair situation - at least, I hope not). What I meant was that in my opinion you are over-exaggerating the difficulties of using the AB in those scenarios. I routinely use the AB in some of the situations you mention, and I really don't find it as much of a problem as you clearly do.

Mr Lopez - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
> (In reply to needvert)
> [...]
> It's nothing to do with whether one knot is actually superior for another.
>
> It's about calling someone an armchair climber the moment you disagree with them. Obviously Andy Kirkpatrick thinks the Alpine Butterfly, to quote him is 'wonderful', is he also an armchair climber?

You seem to have missed the interchange by which he implied in several occasions (jokingly i assumed) that i hadn't tied enough AB, that i didn't know how to tie an AB, that i was too slow tying knots. So i reversed the joke to him. If you can't take shit don't dish it. And who are you any way? His boyfriend?

Someone asked what advantages an inline 8 may have, and i pointed them out. Someone questioned those advantages based on his experience not having used the knot and/or having been in situations where the inline 8 could be advantageous, and i pointed commonplace situation where this knot is useful. Argument ad nauseum continued, and there it settled. (Not a dig at you BPM)

argumentum ad nauseam

(also known as: argument from nagging, proof by assertion)

Description: Repeating an argument or a premise over and over again in place of better supporting evidence.

Logical Form:

X is true. X is true. X is true. X is true. X is true. X is true... etc.


Now, i didn't say the alpine butterfly wasn't a wonderful knot, so you fanboys can pick up the toys and put them back in the pram. The whole point is that in certain situations other knots can do the job better, and having another skill in the quiver is never a bad thing to have. You can choose to use them or not, you can choose to learn them or not, but the merits of different knots don't change.

Horses for courses. I'm outta here

P.S. Apologies for not using the official Thesaurus IGKT approved terms for "my rope wants to be a snake".

P.P.S. How do you use an Alpine Butterfly to climb a fixed rope? Is there an online instructional article written by a climbing God i can read about it from, the comfort of my armchair?

P.P.P.S. Woosaaah....


Mr Lopez - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:

I wasn't seriously calling you an armchair climber mate, it was just a dig back to the suggestions i didn't know how to tie the knots, i even put a tongue out smiley at the end! Like this :p

As i put in the post above to roxowolfo, there are situations where the AB it may be a pain in the arse, whereas other situations is just the ticket. However the AB can do everything the inline 8 does but the opposite isn't true. The inline 8 is certainly not a does-it-all knot, it just has advantages in some particular situations that luckily are not encountered regularly in normal use.
bpmclimb - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Ok, no problem :)
r0x0r.wolfo - on 23 Apr 2014
In reply to Mr Lopez:

'just the ticket'

Oi that's my phrase! Bloody phrase stealer!

Right they're both 'just the ticket' in certain situations. I think people can have a difference of opinion of what knot to tie for the same purpose though. Not difficult to imagine is it? People endlessly argue about what tie in knot to use. Adam Ondra uses a bowline, most don't have a problem with a figure 8. Is either one right? Not really.
bpmclimb - on 24 Apr 2014
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> 'just the ticket'

> Oi that's my phrase! Bloody phrase stealer!

First recorded use 1838, apparently. Derived from the word "etiquette". Sorry about that :)

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