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I know that from previous thread that the Rockfax team are keen advocates of always documenting routes on the crag from left to right and I think there are some very sound reasons for this.
I was wondering should the same rule apply to crags? I suppose it would be very confusing to present routes on each buttress from L to R and then tackle the buttresses from R to L. Maybe I have just answered my own question?
What about when one approaches from the right? What about sea cliffs?
I was wondering should the same rule apply to crags? I suppose it would be very confusing to present routes on each buttress from L to R and then tackle the buttresses from R to L. Maybe I have just answered my own question?
What about when one approaches from the right? What about sea cliffs?
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
If you stand in Millstone with Eastern Grit open in front of you and facing the crag, the cliffs to your left are towards the front of the book, and the ones to the right are towards the back. The further away from you the cliffs are, the nearer the front and back of the book they area. That gives you a great overview of the area, even if you have never been there before,
Chris
If you stand in Millstone with Eastern Grit open in front of you and facing the crag, the cliffs to your left are towards the front of the book, and the ones to the right are towards the back. The further away from you the cliffs are, the nearer the front and back of the book they area. That gives you a great overview of the area, even if you have never been there before,
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
What about the ones behind you?
> (In reply to Dave Flanagan)
>
> If you stand in Millstone with Eastern Grit open in front of you and facing the crag, the cliffs to your left are towards the front of the book, and the ones to the right are towards the back. The further away from you the cliffs are, the nearer the front and back of the book they area. That gives you a great overview of the area, even if you have never been there before,
>
>
> Chris
>
> If you stand in Millstone with Eastern Grit open in front of you and facing the crag, the cliffs to your left are towards the front of the book, and the ones to the right are towards the back. The further away from you the cliffs are, the nearer the front and back of the book they area. That gives you a great overview of the area, even if you have never been there before,
>
>
> Chris
What about the ones behind you?
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I still prefer the crags to be left-to-right. See Chris's post just above.
> Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
I still prefer the crags to be left-to-right. See Chris's post just above.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
They would be on the bookshelf back at home - Peak Limestone, Western Grit and that stuff in North Wales!
Chris
> What about the ones behind you?
They would be on the bookshelf back at home - Peak Limestone, Western Grit and that stuff in North Wales!
Chris
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
Yes, as the CC Lower Wye Valley guidebook proves. Finding anything in that crapping thing is nigh on impossible unless you're already familiar with the crag. Both the routes and the buttresses are listed right-to-left - at least at Ban-y-gor, and it seriously messes with the mind.
Yes, as the CC Lower Wye Valley guidebook proves. Finding anything in that crapping thing is nigh on impossible unless you're already familiar with the crag. Both the routes and the buttresses are listed right-to-left - at least at Ban-y-gor, and it seriously messes with the mind.
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
Yep, slavishly following L to R is a great idea. The guide to Sicily goes clockwise but in each area from L to R so anticlockwise and when you drive to San Vito lo Capo (and there is only one road in) the first crag you see is the last in the section.
Yep, slavishly following L to R is a great idea. The guide to Sicily goes clockwise but in each area from L to R so anticlockwise and when you drive to San Vito lo Capo (and there is only one road in) the first crag you see is the last in the section.
In reply to the thread:
It's worth remarking that for right-handed people the natural way to hold a book is in the left hand, flicking through it with the right thumb, and thus naturally starting at the first pages.
For a left-handed person, however, you hold the book in the right hand, flick through with your left thumb, and naturally start with the last pages. To me (left handed) there is nothing wrong with the first crag you come to being in the rear of the book.
It's worth remarking that for right-handed people the natural way to hold a book is in the left hand, flicking through it with the right thumb, and thus naturally starting at the first pages.
For a left-handed person, however, you hold the book in the right hand, flick through with your left thumb, and naturally start with the last pages. To me (left handed) there is nothing wrong with the first crag you come to being in the rear of the book.
In reply to tehmarks: I've got to disagree. The Lower Wye Valley guide makes perfect sense going right to left at Ban-y-gor - there's only one way of approaching the crag, and the first routes you get to are the first routes in the guide. I'm less convinced of the Tintern section, where 30 foot wall is described the opposite way round to all the other walls in the quarry...
In reply to whenry:
Perhaps the buttresses, but at least describe the climbs going left-to-right! It's so unintuitive going the other way, especially when not all routes are on a topo or have photos.
Perhaps the buttresses, but at least describe the climbs going left-to-right! It's so unintuitive going the other way, especially when not all routes are on a topo or have photos.
In reply to whenry:
So the 1st route you come to (No 1) is on the left side of the page and the right side of the crag, and the routes are passed right to left, but listed left to right (on the page). Then you get to the end (or start?) of that section you have to turn the page and start the mental gymnastics again - it is a nightmare - like the 'backwards' Stanage guide that was universally dismissed as being almost unusable!
Chris
> I've got to disagree. The Lower Wye Valley guide makes perfect sense going right to left at Ban-y-gor - there's only one way of approaching the crag, and the first routes you get to are the first routes in the guide.
So the 1st route you come to (No 1) is on the left side of the page and the right side of the crag, and the routes are passed right to left, but listed left to right (on the page). Then you get to the end (or start?) of that section you have to turn the page and start the mental gymnastics again - it is a nightmare - like the 'backwards' Stanage guide that was universally dismissed as being almost unusable!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
No - the routes are listed right-to-left, so as you're looking at the wall you have to remember that the line you want that's not on the topo but is three routes after something that is, is actually three routes to the LEFT and not the right.
Ridiculous.
No - the routes are listed right-to-left, so as you're looking at the wall you have to remember that the line you want that's not on the topo but is three routes after something that is, is actually three routes to the LEFT and not the right.
Ridiculous.
Post edited at 17:47
In reply to Coel Hellier:
No, the way a right-handed person typically holds any book is in the right hand, flicks through the pages with the left, and then holds the book open at the right place with the right thumb. I was going to say: that's the way one typically does it with a paperback or guidebook, but I see that when I pick up a heavier hardback it's even less natural to hold it in the left hand.
No, the way a right-handed person typically holds any book is in the right hand, flicks through the pages with the left, and then holds the book open at the right place with the right thumb. I was going to say: that's the way one typically does it with a paperback or guidebook, but I see that when I pick up a heavier hardback it's even less natural to hold it in the left hand.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
But of course the reason why the left-right arrangement is preferred, in guidebook layouts as anywhere else, is that that's the way we (in the west) read, line by line, page by page, left page to right page.
But of course the reason why the left-right arrangement is preferred, in guidebook layouts as anywhere else, is that that's the way we (in the west) read, line by line, page by page, left page to right page.
In reply to tehmarks: I think it works better when - as at Ban-y-gor there are only very limited topos (if any). Chris - in practice I find it works better than in theory - you naturally read from left to right, so the first route you get to (on the right) is also the first route you read in the guide. Sure, you're turning through the pages backwards, but otherwise it makes perfect sense.
When there's a comprehensive topo though, that's a completely different kettle of fish, and I agree that 30 foot wall, with a full double page topo and the routes described in reverse order as you look at them on the topo screws your mind.
When there's a comprehensive topo though, that's a completely different kettle of fish, and I agree that 30 foot wall, with a full double page topo and the routes described in reverse order as you look at them on the topo screws your mind.
In reply to whenry:
But if you are climbing on the 120th route on a crag, do you actually read all the text, or even any of the text, referring to the previous 119 routes?
I think this is just a legacy of old-fashioned guidebooks that pretty much required you read them like a book to find out what the furthest route on the crag was. Nowadays, even with more text-based guidebooks, the crag intros should point you quickly to the relevant sections so that you can skip quickly to the target buttress, or walk along the crag using an overview photo or map to locate yourself below the right buttress.
Alan
> I think it works better when - as at Ban-y-gor there are only very limited topos (if any). Chris - in practice I find it works better than in theory - you naturally read from left to right, so the first route you get to (on the right) is also the first route you read in the guide. Sure, you're turning through the pages backwards, but otherwise it makes perfect sense.
But if you are climbing on the 120th route on a crag, do you actually read all the text, or even any of the text, referring to the previous 119 routes?
I think this is just a legacy of old-fashioned guidebooks that pretty much required you read them like a book to find out what the furthest route on the crag was. Nowadays, even with more text-based guidebooks, the crag intros should point you quickly to the relevant sections so that you can skip quickly to the target buttress, or walk along the crag using an overview photo or map to locate yourself below the right buttress.
Alan
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
Places like Wadi Rum should be described from right to left out of respect for local linguistic convention.
Places like Wadi Rum should be described from right to left out of respect for local linguistic convention.
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
and German guides - you don't find out what you're supposed to do until you get to the end of the description.
Aussie guides - printed upside down
and German guides - you don't find out what you're supposed to do until you get to the end of the description.
Aussie guides - printed upside down
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Or indeed, Gogarth.
> Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
Or indeed, Gogarth.
In reply to Al Evans:
Or Millstone or Curbar or Bamford or Black Rocks or Agden,
Chris
> Or indeed, Gogarth.
Or Millstone or Curbar or Bamford or Black Rocks or Agden,
Chris
In reply to Al Evans:
Yes but (as I'm sure Alan would be keen to emphasise!) if you have a big photo topo on each double page, you expect that when you turn the page leftwards you'll see the topo for the next (bit of) crag to the left, and vice versa. That's why right-to-left ordering doesn't and never will work in photo-topo guides.
Yes but (as I'm sure Alan would be keen to emphasise!) if you have a big photo topo on each double page, you expect that when you turn the page leftwards you'll see the topo for the next (bit of) crag to the left, and vice versa. That's why right-to-left ordering doesn't and never will work in photo-topo guides.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Or even Rock Fax 11 which ordered the Swanage crags right to left, Subluminal ran L to R through the whole area, the Ruckle L to R on each double page but R to L for the crag - so the last route on one side of the page were 50m from the first route on the other side - confusing even for a local like me!
Or even Rock Fax 11 which ordered the Swanage crags right to left, Subluminal ran L to R through the whole area, the Ruckle L to R on each double page but R to L for the crag - so the last route on one side of the page were 50m from the first route on the other side - confusing even for a local like me!
In reply to scott titt:
Exactly, we learnt our lessons through making mistakes!
Alan
> Or even Rock Fax 11 which ordered the Swanage crags right to left, Subluminal ran L to R through the whole area, the Ruckle L to R on each double page but R to L for the crag - so the last route on one side of the page were 50m from the first route on the other side - confusing even for a local like me!
Exactly, we learnt our lessons through making mistakes!
Alan
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I owe you an apology. I have lambasted you in the past for that travesty of a guidebook, wrongly believing it was you who had foisted the backwards script on the guidebook team. Should I blame Kryptonite?
> So the 1st route you come to (No 1) is on the left side of the page and the right side of the crag, and the routes are passed right to left, but listed left to right (on the page). Then you get to the end (or start?) of that section you have to turn the page and start the mental gymnastics again - it is a nightmare - like the 'backwards' Stanage guide that was universally dismissed as being almost unusable!
I owe you an apology. I have lambasted you in the past for that travesty of a guidebook, wrongly believing it was you who had foisted the backwards script on the guidebook team. Should I blame Kryptonite?
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
It was always several peoples' fault. That guide was far from 'unusable' anyway it was just dumb because it wasn't user friendly and in direct competition with the very user friendly PGE. It did have the benefit of making the new one look even better than it is.
It was always several peoples' fault. That guide was far from 'unusable' anyway it was just dumb because it wasn't user friendly and in direct competition with the very user friendly PGE. It did have the benefit of making the new one look even better than it is.
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
Left to Right, no exceptions, or it's first against the wall when the revolution comes.
Left to Right, no exceptions, or it's first against the wall when the revolution comes.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
I'm left handed and I don't agree, it might be partly because I've adapted to everything being right handed, but really it just makes logical sense to me, to have the crags on the left in the 'left' of the book, and the ones on the right in the 'right' of the book.
Also, I think in the Stanage guide which had the Popular End at the front of the book there was some kind of inaccuracy because of that. It was (not impartially?) pointed out by the Rockfax peeps on here.
I sometimes think it might be nice if the world wasn't so right handed, but with guidebooks left to right makes sense I think.
> It's worth remarking that for right-handed people the natural way to hold a book is in the left hand, flicking through it with the right thumb, and thus naturally starting at the first pages.
> For a left-handed person, however, you hold the book in the right hand, flick through with your left thumb, and naturally start with the last pages. To me (left handed) there is nothing wrong with the first crag you come to being in the rear of the book.
I'm left handed and I don't agree, it might be partly because I've adapted to everything being right handed, but really it just makes logical sense to me, to have the crags on the left in the 'left' of the book, and the ones on the right in the 'right' of the book.
Also, I think in the Stanage guide which had the Popular End at the front of the book there was some kind of inaccuracy because of that. It was (not impartially?) pointed out by the Rockfax peeps on here.
I sometimes think it might be nice if the world wasn't so right handed, but with guidebooks left to right makes sense I think.
Post edited at 16:16
In reply to Offwidth:
It was something like a single buttress with a few routes on being in the wrong place in the guide, so that two small sections were back to front, I can't remember the details though.
It was something like a single buttress with a few routes on being in the wrong place in the guide, so that two small sections were back to front, I can't remember the details though.
In reply to Timmd:
There are many mistakes in any published guide. That sounds so trivial it must have been Alan or Chris having some fun (given the number of mistakes they are accused of).
There are many mistakes in any published guide. That sounds so trivial it must have been Alan or Chris having some fun (given the number of mistakes they are accused of).
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
IMO It's always better left to right. You just turn the pages in the direction required.
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
>
> Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
>
> Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
IMO It's always better left to right. You just turn the pages in the direction required.
In reply to Offwidth:
It was hard to tell if the tone was in fun on a serious thread (not too fussed as it was so long ago)...but fair enough about mistakes in guides.
> There are many mistakes in any published guide. That sounds so trivial it must have been Alan or Chris having some fun (given the number of mistakes they are accused of).
It was hard to tell if the tone was in fun on a serious thread (not too fussed as it was so long ago)...but fair enough about mistakes in guides.
Post edited at 17:34
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
I can imagine arriving at the right end of Stanage and finding the routes start at the other end. I wouldn't be happy. Dogmatic rules are silly.
> Left to right for everything.
I can imagine arriving at the right end of Stanage and finding the routes start at the other end. I wouldn't be happy. Dogmatic rules are silly.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Well you could just turn to the page required rather than read the whole tome?
Chris
> I can imagine arriving at the right end of Stanage and finding the routes start at the other end. I wouldn't be happy. Dogmatic rules are silly.
Well you could just turn to the page required rather than read the whole tome?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I don't really know much about Stanage but I know arriving at the right end of a crag where there is an obvious feature, but the guide insists on starting at the other (left) end where features are much less distinct (plus you have to walk there), is not helpful.
> Well you could just turn to the page required rather than read the whole tome?
I don't really know much about Stanage but I know arriving at the right end of a crag where there is an obvious feature, but the guide insists on starting at the other (left) end where features are much less distinct (plus you have to walk there), is not helpful.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Surely with a reasonably sensible recent guidebook with adequate topos it's not an issue since you can just turn to the end of the section, find the obvious feature on the topo and you're good to go?
Surely with a reasonably sensible recent guidebook with adequate topos it's not an issue since you can just turn to the end of the section, find the obvious feature on the topo and you're good to go?
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
When you know a bit more about guidebooks you will get the idea,
Chris
(Double smiley, just in case you thought I was serious)
> I don't really know much about Stanage but I know arriving at the right end of a crag where there is an obvious feature, but the guide insists on starting at the other (left) end where features are much less distinct (plus you have to walk there), is not helpful.
When you know a bit more about guidebooks you will get the idea,
Chris
(Double smiley, just in case you thought I was serious)
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Yes Dave, if the crag is so neat and the topo so good, then you don't need descriptions, so it doesn't matter which end you start at. But I'm meaning when there isn't a topo (say the crag is in the trees) and the crag is spread out over a distance, then you don't want to have a rule.
> Surely with a reasonably sensible recent guidebook with adequate topos it's not an issue since you can just turn to the end of the section, find the obvious feature on the topo and you're good to go?
Yes Dave, if the crag is so neat and the topo so good, then you don't need descriptions, so it doesn't matter which end you start at. But I'm meaning when there isn't a topo (say the crag is in the trees) and the crag is spread out over a distance, then you don't want to have a rule.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Agreed. As for crags, for places like Reiff it would seem a bit odd to start at the furthest away bit and work back.
> I know arriving at the right end of a crag where there is an obvious feature, but the guide insists on starting at the other (left) end where features are much less distinct (plus you have to walk there), is not helpful.
Agreed. As for crags, for places like Reiff it would seem a bit odd to start at the furthest away bit and work back.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Hey Andy, if you can use this topo for more than a few hours without chucking it in the river then you're a better man than me: http://climbingaway.fr/topos-guides-escalade/escalades-autour-du-ventoux
The crags go R > L and the routes go L > R.
Hey Andy, if you can use this topo for more than a few hours without chucking it in the river then you're a better man than me: http://climbingaway.fr/topos-guides-escalade/escalades-autour-du-ventoux
The crags go R > L and the routes go L > R.
Post edited at 19:42
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Topos are worthwhile and make sense for major crags but not for every tiny wee crag in a definitive guide with un-starred routes.
Topos are worthwhile and make sense for major crags but not for every tiny wee crag in a definitive guide with un-starred routes.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Then you would seem to be in a minority.
> I don't really know much about Stanage but I know arriving at the right end of a crag where there is an obvious feature, but the guide insists on starting at the other (left) end where features are much less distinct (plus you have to walk there), is not helpful.
Then you would seem to be in a minority.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Funny you should mention that. My old FRCC Gable & Pillar guide (1991?) is probably the best example I have of how staggeringly bad a guide book can get in terms of violation of the L to R rule, its massive over-wordyness and having to visit 5 randomly scattered pages to find and descend from a single route.
Vive la guidebook revolution.
> Except in some places where one naturally approaches a series of crags from the right, e.g on Gable.
Funny you should mention that. My old FRCC Gable & Pillar guide (1991?) is probably the best example I have of how staggeringly bad a guide book can get in terms of violation of the L to R rule, its massive over-wordyness and having to visit 5 randomly scattered pages to find and descend from a single route.
Vive la guidebook revolution.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
I dunno, it'd give the guide book authors an excuse to produce more than one book for a crag. It'd be very worthwhile. ()
> Topos are worthwhile and make sense for major crags but not for every tiny wee crag in a definitive guide with un-starred routes.
I dunno, it'd give the guide book authors an excuse to produce more than one book for a crag. It'd be very worthwhile. ()
Post edited at 21:11
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
But how many people arrive at the RH end of Stanage, really?
Probably 90% of people go straight to the popular end which is, what, 500m or 1km from the right hand end.
I agree that slavishly following a rule without thought is wrong but I've rarely come across crags that would be better described R-L.
The only crag I've come across where the old "everyone approaches from the right" argument held water is Gogarth main - because in that case we all descend and re-approach the crag from the right for each route, not only the first one of the day.
But how many people arrive at the RH end of Stanage, really?
Probably 90% of people go straight to the popular end which is, what, 500m or 1km from the right hand end.
I agree that slavishly following a rule without thought is wrong but I've rarely come across crags that would be better described R-L.
The only crag I've come across where the old "everyone approaches from the right" argument held water is Gogarth main - because in that case we all descend and re-approach the crag from the right for each route, not only the first one of the day.
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
I think with complex mountain crags where you approach tightly from the rightened don't get a chance to sensibly use use a whole crag topo it's best r to l.
I think with complex mountain crags where you approach tightly from the rightened don't get a chance to sensibly use use a whole crag topo it's best r to l.
In reply to Offwidth:
Even in such a case I very much disagree.
I think the problem comes with the concept of 'reading' a guidebook, and the legacy assumption that books should be read from front to back to make sense.
Think of it more like reading a map in that you head directly for the part of the map you expect to find what you're looking for and then make small adjustments from there.
If I was going to a crag such as you described I would have no difficulty at all in going to the right-most page of the crag and expecting to find the right-most routes on it. By contrast if I'm looking at the left-most route on a page and want to know what the next route to the left is, I would find it very odd to have to turn a page to the right and look at the right side of that page. Far more logical just to look to the left for routes on the left.
Even in such a case I very much disagree.
I think the problem comes with the concept of 'reading' a guidebook, and the legacy assumption that books should be read from front to back to make sense.
Think of it more like reading a map in that you head directly for the part of the map you expect to find what you're looking for and then make small adjustments from there.
If I was going to a crag such as you described I would have no difficulty at all in going to the right-most page of the crag and expecting to find the right-most routes on it. By contrast if I'm looking at the left-most route on a page and want to know what the next route to the left is, I would find it very odd to have to turn a page to the right and look at the right side of that page. Far more logical just to look to the left for routes on the left.
In reply to john arran:
I think you will find the psychology works the other way for most people. Its all well and good saying you can do it but we are not as used to reading things backwards in order. Of course if such a crag existed in a book with otherwise l to r descriptions it would be confusing to reverse the order for one crag. Another complexity is where routes criss-cross extensively do we go by the start or by the side where the route mostly is. I can see situations where r to l it is perfectly acceptable, especially in Andy's territory given the complexity of some of the Scottish mountains crags.
I think you will find the psychology works the other way for most people. Its all well and good saying you can do it but we are not as used to reading things backwards in order. Of course if such a crag existed in a book with otherwise l to r descriptions it would be confusing to reverse the order for one crag. Another complexity is where routes criss-cross extensively do we go by the start or by the side where the route mostly is. I can see situations where r to l it is perfectly acceptable, especially in Andy's territory given the complexity of some of the Scottish mountains crags.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
It's funny you should pick on Stanage as that, to my mind, is the perfect example of left to right being better. To me a guide book is like a map or picture of the crag in paged form. If you start at the right end of the crag, you flip to the right end of the book.
It's not about being dogmatic it's about being consistent and logical.
Putting the most popular bits nearer the start of a book is like ordering the words in a sentence by length.
> (In reply to DubyaJamesDubya)
>
> [...]
>
> I can imagine arriving at the right end of Stanage and finding the routes start at the other end. I wouldn't be happy. Dogmatic rules are silly.
>
> [...]
>
> I can imagine arriving at the right end of Stanage and finding the routes start at the other end. I wouldn't be happy. Dogmatic rules are silly.
It's funny you should pick on Stanage as that, to my mind, is the perfect example of left to right being better. To me a guide book is like a map or picture of the crag in paged form. If you start at the right end of the crag, you flip to the right end of the book.
It's not about being dogmatic it's about being consistent and logical.
Putting the most popular bits nearer the start of a book is like ordering the words in a sentence by length.
In reply to Offwidth:
That's my whole point: it doesn't require any reading backwards - it's a photo-topo so almost all of the work is done visually not textually. The days of "climb the groove 3m to the left of the last route" are thankfully behind us. I rather think that for most people the 'psychology' of routes further left being further left in the book is extremely natural.
I don't think I've ever encountered a complaint that a left to right paged photo topo was confusing, so precisely what problem would right-to-left paging be a solution to?
> I think you will find the psychology works the other way for most people. Its all well and good saying you can do it but we are not as used to reading things backwards in order.
That's my whole point: it doesn't require any reading backwards - it's a photo-topo so almost all of the work is done visually not textually. The days of "climb the groove 3m to the left of the last route" are thankfully behind us. I rather think that for most people the 'psychology' of routes further left being further left in the book is extremely natural.
I don't think I've ever encountered a complaint that a left to right paged photo topo was confusing, so precisely what problem would right-to-left paging be a solution to?
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Disagree wholeheartedly with this one. Ok, so it might just possibly make things a tiny bit logical the very first time you visit a crag whilst you're finding your feet. However, for the next 5, 10 or 15 visits to the crag it's just going to annoy you! I know which version is going to deduct the most time from your climbing trips
Mike.
Disagree wholeheartedly with this one. Ok, so it might just possibly make things a tiny bit logical the very first time you visit a crag whilst you're finding your feet. However, for the next 5, 10 or 15 visits to the crag it's just going to annoy you! I know which version is going to deduct the most time from your climbing trips
Mike.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Disagree wholeheartedly with this one. Ok, so it might just possibly make things a tiny bit logical the very first time you visit a crag whilst you're finding your feet. However, for the next 5, 10 or 15 visits to the crag it's just going to annoy you! I know which version is going to deduct the most time from your climbing trips
Mike.
Disagree wholeheartedly with this one. Ok, so it might just possibly make things a tiny bit logical the very first time you visit a crag whilst you're finding your feet. However, for the next 5, 10 or 15 visits to the crag it's just going to annoy you! I know which version is going to deduct the most time from your climbing trips
Mike.
> I don't really know much about Stanage but I know arriving at the right end of a crag where there is an obvious feature, but the guide insists on starting at the other (left) end where features are much less distinct (plus you have to walk there), is not helpful.
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Yes! It's like orientating a map.
> It's funny you should pick on Stanage as that, to my mind, is the perfect example of left to right being better. To me a guide book is like a map or picture of the crag in paged form. If you start at the right end of the crag, you flip to the right end of the book.
> It's not about being dogmatic it's about being consistent and logical.
> Putting the most popular bits nearer the start of a book is like ordering the words in a sentence by length.
Yes! It's like orientating a map.
In reply to john arran:
Sure and I am trying to point out you can't transfer the information from a photo topo very well when forced to walk tightly along a complex crag. Experienced climbers forget this all too easily and when this happens you can get situations very similar to those that helped create some mistakes that were made in past guides that almost guaranteed new relatively inexperienced climbers in an area got lost. You maybe need to spend more time on places like the eastern terrace of Tryfan to appreciate this and that crag isn't especially complex.
Sure and I am trying to point out you can't transfer the information from a photo topo very well when forced to walk tightly along a complex crag. Experienced climbers forget this all too easily and when this happens you can get situations very similar to those that helped create some mistakes that were made in past guides that almost guaranteed new relatively inexperienced climbers in an area got lost. You maybe need to spend more time on places like the eastern terrace of Tryfan to appreciate this and that crag isn't especially complex.
In reply to Otis:
Well I'd argue we should support first time visitors more sensitively than regulars, especially on place like less well travelled Scottish mountain crags. Most genuine regulars shouldn't need the guidebook at all.
Well I'd argue we should support first time visitors more sensitively than regulars, especially on place like less well travelled Scottish mountain crags. Most genuine regulars shouldn't need the guidebook at all.
Post edited at 08:57
In reply to john arran:
Absolutely! If you approach a crag from the right there will be a locator topo or map to orient you, you turn to the back of the relevant section and away you go,
Chris
> I think the problem comes with the concept of 'reading' a guidebook, and the legacy assumption that books should be read from front to back to make sense.
> Think of it more like reading a map in that you head directly for the part of the map you expect to find what you're looking for and then make small adjustments from there.
> If I was going to a crag such as you described I would have no difficulty at all in going to the right-most page of the crag and expecting to find the right-most routes on it. By contrast if I'm looking at the left-most route on a page and want to know what the next route to the left is, I would find it very odd to have to turn a page to the right and look at the right side of that page. Far more logical just to look to the left for routes on the left.
Absolutely! If you approach a crag from the right there will be a locator topo or map to orient you, you turn to the back of the relevant section and away you go,
Chris
Post edited at 09:45
In reply to Offwidth:
Nobody ever suggested a photo should provide all the info you ever should need. If access is complicated each topo page should of course give helpful extra info to help navigate leftwards and identify key routes along the way. Then if the route you want is further left again you simply page left and find more helpful info. I really don't see where the problem is that requires people to page rightwards while walking leftwards.
Nobody ever suggested a photo should provide all the info you ever should need. If access is complicated each topo page should of course give helpful extra info to help navigate leftwards and identify key routes along the way. Then if the route you want is further left again you simply page left and find more helpful info. I really don't see where the problem is that requires people to page rightwards while walking leftwards.
In reply to john arran:
I don't see a massive problem either way on complex mountain cliffs where you dont get to face the crag so the guidebook editor chooses that which makes most sense 'on the ground'. The most important factor is making sure those new to an area find their way as efficiently as possible and fixed views can get in the way of this.
I don't see a massive problem either way on complex mountain cliffs where you dont get to face the crag so the guidebook editor chooses that which makes most sense 'on the ground'. The most important factor is making sure those new to an area find their way as efficiently as possible and fixed views can get in the way of this.
In reply to Jonny2vests:
Ah, but what if people approach the wall from the left? Then they'll be lining up right to left. You could make them line up the other way, but that seems cruel and complicated for people you're about to execute.
> Left to Right, no exceptions, or it's first against the wall when the revolution comes.
Ah, but what if people approach the wall from the left? Then they'll be lining up right to left. You could make them line up the other way, but that seems cruel and complicated for people you're about to execute.
In reply to Offwidth:
Especially when the "fixed view" is that the guide should go R-L just because you approach from the right.
Can you give an actual example of a crag/mountain where you think R-L is better?
> ... and fixed views can get in the way of this.
Especially when the "fixed view" is that the guide should go R-L just because you approach from the right.
Can you give an actual example of a crag/mountain where you think R-L is better?
In reply to Coel Hellier:
I just think a default should be L to R rather than a harder rule some here seem to prefer. I've already said the situation where R to L could be prefered is big complex crags with crossing routes where R to L approaches occur, especially when the crag isn't normally viewed from a position to match the topo. The most likely place where this would apply in the UK is remote scottish crags, even more so where there are few routes and it's hard to justify the space for a photo topo.
I find all this argument very ironic as I was firmly against the R to L description of nearly all peak district crags (R to L in some cases being strongly supported by some volunteers in some definitive teams) being a big supporter of a more common sense attitude towards newer visiting climbers.
Having worked on various guides now, changes in direction cause harder work and this can get especially complicated and require a lot of focus in multi-tiered areas.
I just think a default should be L to R rather than a harder rule some here seem to prefer. I've already said the situation where R to L could be prefered is big complex crags with crossing routes where R to L approaches occur, especially when the crag isn't normally viewed from a position to match the topo. The most likely place where this would apply in the UK is remote scottish crags, even more so where there are few routes and it's hard to justify the space for a photo topo.
I find all this argument very ironic as I was firmly against the R to L description of nearly all peak district crags (R to L in some cases being strongly supported by some volunteers in some definitive teams) being a big supporter of a more common sense attitude towards newer visiting climbers.
Having worked on various guides now, changes in direction cause harder work and this can get especially complicated and require a lot of focus in multi-tiered areas.
In reply to Offwidth:
Agreed. Take Ben Nevis for example. There is a whole SMC guidebook to The Ben and it is described R to L as one approaches up the Allt a' Mhuilinn.
People, particularly those new the area, will pick out the buttresses and climbs as they walk up the path. And there aren't topos to every nook and cranny on the Ben.
If it were described L to R (Little Brenva Face to Castle Ridge) then the whole book would have to be 'read' backwards, which to me would be illogical.
> I don't see a massive problem either way on complex mountain cliffs where you dont get to face the crag so the guidebook editor chooses that which makes most sense 'on the ground'. The most important factor is making sure those new to an area find their way as efficiently as possible and fixed views can get in the way of this.
Agreed. Take Ben Nevis for example. There is a whole SMC guidebook to The Ben and it is described R to L as one approaches up the Allt a' Mhuilinn.
People, particularly those new the area, will pick out the buttresses and climbs as they walk up the path. And there aren't topos to every nook and cranny on the Ben.
If it were described L to R (Little Brenva Face to Castle Ridge) then the whole book would have to be 'read' backwards, which to me would be illogical.
In reply to Grahame N:
Unless you're left handed....where it comes instinctively. Adapt goddamit adapt.* ()
(*Actually, I'm not that fussed..)
> If it were described L to R (Little Brenva Face to Castle Ridge) then the whole book would have to be 'read' backwards, which to me would be illogical.
Unless you're left handed....where it comes instinctively. Adapt goddamit adapt.* ()
(*Actually, I'm not that fussed..)
Post edited at 11:52
In reply to Grahame N:
I still entirely disagree. A novice approaching for the first time would pick out the major features, such as Tower Ridge and Carn Dearg Buttress, and orientate themselves from there. And for that a L-R approach is much better. Ben Nevis is an example where you can compare the whole layout with a whole-crag topo, so L-R works well. It is only the most old-fashioned of guidebook editors who think that in such a situation you would have to "read the whole book backwards".
I sorta take Offwidth's point that if you couldn't actually see the crag well, and thus whole-crag topos would be less effective, then it might be worth thinking about R to L, but I'm struggling to think of an actual example where I'd prefer it.
> If it were described L to R (Little Brenva Face to Castle Ridge) then the whole book would have to be 'read' backwards,
> which to me would be illogical.
> which to me would be illogical.
I still entirely disagree. A novice approaching for the first time would pick out the major features, such as Tower Ridge and Carn Dearg Buttress, and orientate themselves from there. And for that a L-R approach is much better. Ben Nevis is an example where you can compare the whole layout with a whole-crag topo, so L-R works well. It is only the most old-fashioned of guidebook editors who think that in such a situation you would have to "read the whole book backwards".
I sorta take Offwidth's point that if you couldn't actually see the crag well, and thus whole-crag topos would be less effective, then it might be worth thinking about R to L, but I'm struggling to think of an actual example where I'd prefer it.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
+1
> (In reply to Grahame N)
>
> [...]
>
> I sorta take Offwidth's point that if you couldn't actually see the crag well, and thus whole-crag topos would be less effective, then it might be worth thinking about R to L, but I'm struggling to think of an actual example where I'd prefer it.
>
> [...]
>
> I sorta take Offwidth's point that if you couldn't actually see the crag well, and thus whole-crag topos would be less effective, then it might be worth thinking about R to L, but I'm struggling to think of an actual example where I'd prefer it.
+1
In reply to Grahame N:
Er, the Nevis guide goes left to right, as well it should! You can see all the features from the approach so don't need to navigate from one route to another until you're at the specific cliff in question.
I tend to think that L-R should be the default, but if for example you've got to traverse in close up to the crag from the right (e.g. sea cliffs) then that way often makes more sense in the description. Golden Walls at Reiff would be a good example of this. For the same reason (much of a crag not being visible from below) a topo may not do much good either.
Er, the Nevis guide goes left to right, as well it should! You can see all the features from the approach so don't need to navigate from one route to another until you're at the specific cliff in question.
I tend to think that L-R should be the default, but if for example you've got to traverse in close up to the crag from the right (e.g. sea cliffs) then that way often makes more sense in the description. Golden Walls at Reiff would be a good example of this. For the same reason (much of a crag not being visible from below) a topo may not do much good either.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Sorry, you are quite right. Was going by memory rather than checking the guide, and the memory isn't so good these days.
> Er, the Nevis guide goes left to right
Sorry, you are quite right. Was going by memory rather than checking the guide, and the memory isn't so good these days.
In reply to Grahame N:
Ha ha. ()
> Sorry, you are quite right. Was going by memory rather than checking the guide, and the memory isn't so good these days.
Ha ha. ()
In reply to Grahame N:
That's not ha ha at your memory by the way, but ha ha at the left to right confusion.
It struck me as funny. ()
That's not ha ha at your memory by the way, but ha ha at the left to right confusion.
It struck me as funny. ()
Post edited at 19:03
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