UKC

Not sure what the general consensus is of carrying flares while winter climbing?

A hypothetical situation: You get benighted on a long winter ridge/in a gully with a long way still to go, with no mobile signal to call for help. Your friends realise you're in trouble and call mountain rescue. They're out searching with a vague idea where you are but it's 2am and there is bugger all light left.

Would having a couple of handheld flares help at all? They're only about £10 and not very heavy or bulky. My headtorch is 40 lumens-ish and a handheld flare is about 1500 so much, much more visible.

Does anyone here have any opinions on this? Not even sure if they'd be visible in a white out but I read an article in Trail magazine recently that prompted this thought.

I was thinking maybe two of these:

http://www.suffolkmarinesafety.com/-Pains_Wessex_Red_Handflare_Mk8RHF/p1825...

In reply to jwhepper:

If you were benighted then it doesn't follow that you are in imminent danger and not necessarily in trouble. At 2am you've only a few more hours to sit it out till daylight comes.

In reply to jwhepper:

Personally, no. Before you know it folk use them half way up the Nevis walk just because they've got sore legs and want a whirlycopter ride off rather than walking down.

And benighted...so what? Accept it, settle in for the long night, and get through it.

In reply to Dave Perry:

a few? Could be another 6 if its mid-winter….more than long enough for hypothermia to seriously set in

In reply to Kimono:

I agree with Dave. Being benighted is not, by itself, dangerous if you have taken the right winter clothing in the first place.

In reply to jwhepper:

Agreed that benighted is not in itself an emergency.

Flares - NO.

I have been right round the block on this subject including a discussion with one of Europe's most experienced and knowledgable pyrotechnic scientists.

If visibility allows, you can be found by handheld or aviation-helmet-mounted NVIS during darkness if you show even a faint light. This can be accomplished most effectively with any LED headtorch on the lowest setting. Several current models will provide a suitable light for over 100 hours.

Again, if visibility allows, you can be found by a good modern FLIR ball such as the Wescam MX-15iHD
http://www.wescam.com/index.php/products-services/airborne-surveillance-and...
if you are alive and radiating normal heat levels, or very recently dead and still warm. No additional action is required by you for this method (though see helmet rant below).

For the white light seen with NVIS, a highly effective thing that a lone hill user can do to facilitate location and rescue is to wear a helmet and headtorch, with the headtorch switched on, during their entire period on the hill. The helmet means that if you have an accident you are more likely to be still conscious. It also provides a relatively robust mounting for the torch. The torch being on all the time means that there is a reasonable chance of still showing a light, either at your location, or at a location somewhere above you, if an accident renders you unconscious.

Stories about mobile phone screen being spotting with NVIS from miles away are NOT folk legends but real UK hill rescue stories. If you are conscious and alert after an incident then any small light may attract attention during darkness unless cloud or fog intervenes.

During daylight, something orange or red attracts attention and both armed raised vertically (marshalling signal: 'This Marshall') identifies you to an SAR aircraft as a person requiring assistance.

Also identifying you as a person requiring assistance, night or day, is the Alpine Distress Signal: six long whistle blasts. (Do not stop if you hear a reply.)

During daylight, smoke works really well but it's of little use at night, a pain in the neck even for MRT, and not at all practical for ordinary hill users.

Flares are awful. They are often missed in daylight. Smokes are just the same but missed in darkness. Pyros don't like a life of abuse in a busy hill sack. Makers, Coastguard and police will tell you they expire after 2 or 3 years (rubbish, but still a lot of hassle). Delivery of them is a nightmare and often expensive. They won't let you on public transport with them. Accidents with them are not particularly pleasant. Sixty seconds ... when your headtorch will last over 100 hours? No-brainer!




K.I.S.S.
- Headtorch and spare batteries carried.
- Phone screen as backup light, possible carry small LED torch if alone.
- Helmets are a good idea.
- Whistle: Alpine Distress Signal.
- Big orange or red item as flag.
- Both arms raised = this person needs assistance.



Phones and Beacons
- Understand what you need for a good CONCISE 112/999 call and understand the limitations of 999 roaming.
. . http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=381861
- Consider registering for an emergency text service or nominate a reliable individual to relay text messages.
- Consider carrying a spare phone battery if out alone.
- PLB are now legal in the UK. http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66018
- SPOT trackers are also available.
. . http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=867
. . http://www.findmespot.eu/en/
- Many satellite devices can be degraded in mountains at northern latitudes.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Jim has said pretty much everything anybody would need to on this subject in a UK mountain or remote mainland environment.

Pyros do go out of date, but they don't just become duds - I have seen a 10-yr old smoke flare ignite and turn into a small but effective flamethrower through normal operation.

Also, apparently blue and yellow stand out better in poor visibility on snow and rock. I think it was the Swiss who did some tests on this years ago (Jim F will probably be able to tell me!)

In reply to richprideaux:
All current UK SAR aero providers have recently been approached after a pyro supplier raised the same matter of colour choice.

All elected for ORANGE: no change.


Pyrotechnic expiry is little better than fantasy. I am very reliably informed that nobody in the world knows how long these things last because nobody has done the science. The expiry date on pyrotechnics are for administrative or commercial purposes and have no scientific basis.

Expect nonsense if discussing this subject with most civil servants and all salesmen.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Ah, with the colour I was referring to clothing choice - blue and yellow being better than black or red...

In reply to jwhepper:

If you have a headtorch surely you have no reason to be benighted?

In reply to jwhepper:

Thanks for all the replies, interesting to hear the points of view! Seems like a general consensus on 'No need' rather than it's specifically a bad idea.

Thanks for the long reply Jim Fraser, I had no idea that the NVIS technology was that powerful! That's really interesting and very reassuring. From the sounds of things it would be better to carry a spare CREE LED torch or something instead of a flare.

And to those of you who are replying saying benighting is not a bad thing, you are right of course. I meant specifically in an emergency situation and I didn't make myself clear enough, of course benighting in and of itself is not an emergency!

Cheers all.

In reply to jwhepper:

I usually find bright light on the hill at night is a problem unless we are doing detailed searching. It narrows your attention into a small cone and blacks out the surrounding darkness. That isn't a particularly safe way of operating since your general situational awareness is grossly degraded.

The great advantage of many modern LED headtorches is not their power but their low setting. These low settings allow you to have just enough light to safely move around but not so much as to completely detach you from the wider picture. The battery life on those low setting is sometimes spectacularly long. At the same time you also have more powerful settings available for specific purposes.

During a rescue situation at night, a powerful lamp will prevent a SAR aircraft from approaching you since in the event of the white light being pointed at the aircraft the NVIS closes down and the pilot cannot see what he is doing. Modern systems are better than those of ten years ago but this is still a significant risk.

In reply to Jim Fraser:


Vaguely related, I have wondered if the flashing modes on some head torches are a problem, by playing merry hell with the automatic gain control on NVIS or FLIR systems?

In reply to wintertree:

NVIS flaring and spectrum compatibility: well their's a bit of a phantom black art. [Shudder!] I think we can assume it also varies widely depending upon whether you are using the 500usd, 5000usd or 15000usd models! The latter type type tends to be found on SAR aircraft.

Some types of lighting, particularly some types of LED, are difficult to see with some NVIS systems. Such characteristics are used to good effect when arranging NVIS compatibility in aircraft cockpits. My understanding is that Gen III NVIS has good blue to IR response which is fine for broad spectrum white lighting, even LED type, and its reflection from the ground or nearby objects will also be visible.

At night, avoid pointing intense lights at SAR aircraft so as to avoid shutting down their goggles. On close approach, lights should be pointed towards the ground unless the aircraft has switched on white light.

If there is a current user around with better info then please step in.


Flashing is in some ways a different issue. I have read some recent reports about how the human mind records images and it's not looking too good for flashing lights. Rather like a video or film camera, they say the brain is recording periodic stills. Someone scanning a scene, particularly one where there are a number of important sights, may not be aware of a flashing light because the flashes are in between the images that the brain records. They might be aware of the presence of a light but not have any useful awareness of its location.

Another issue about LED headtorches is that some new powerful types have been found to emit radio frequency interference. There have been cases where this affects MR radios on high-band VHF although I am not aware of any cases where it has hampered rescue operations. I have not heard anything about the effect of these on mobile phones but it would be interesting to test this.

In reply to jwhepper:

How about this extremely expensive option: http://www.shavenraspberry.com/Odeo-Mk3-Laser-Flare

Probably a bit of "overkill" for a days hillwalk!

In reply to Alan Breck:

Much less likely to need the Laser Flare if you buy Lyle's book instead which is a fraction of the cost.
http://www.shavenraspberry.com/index.php?route=information/news&news_id...

In reply to jwhepper:

Something like a petzl e+lite would be a better idea. While a flare is easy to see on a clear night it burns out too quickly when the weather is closing in. A flashing light can be seen from miles away on a clear night and will keep blinking all night

In reply to jwhepper:

Whistle and a bright headtorch is all you need to attract attention.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

You'd need a match of course to set fire to it for signalling!

In reply to Kimono:


Shouldn't anyone going out in the mountains be equipped to survive a night out?