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In reply to AndrewW:
What "snaplink" is this then? Maillons are only rated to about the same the number 6 (i think) is anyway.
So yes aslong as everything else was good, why not...
What "snaplink" is this then? Maillons are only rated to about the same the number 6 (i think) is anyway.
So yes aslong as everything else was good, why not...
In reply to AndrewW:
To hold 230kg in what state? Static, so 2.3kN? Not a chance.
(Worth noting that I'm 110kg to start with, and that's before you put any clothes or gear on me, so it wouldn't take much of a bounce to go over that)
Neil
To hold 230kg in what state? Static, so 2.3kN? Not a chance.
(Worth noting that I'm 110kg to start with, and that's before you put any clothes or gear on me, so it wouldn't take much of a bounce to go over that)
Neil
Post edited at 14:21
In reply to AndrewW:
Maybe. Depending on your definition of "rated to hold".
Maybe. Depending on your definition of "rated to hold".
In reply to AndrewW:
I'm happy abseiling off standard climbing rated snap gate caribiners if necessary (with obvious caveat that the caribiner is rigged correctly and doesn't get loaded over an edge). Not sure what you mean by a thin snaplink though - is it one of those key ring ones ?
I'm happy abseiling off standard climbing rated snap gate caribiners if necessary (with obvious caveat that the caribiner is rigged correctly and doesn't get loaded over an edge). Not sure what you mean by a thin snaplink though - is it one of those key ring ones ?
In reply to AndrewW:
I weigh in at just under 60kg, I'd go off that krab if I had nothing else to use. Not sure how that'd ever happen though.
I weigh in at just under 60kg, I'd go off that krab if I had nothing else to use. Not sure how that'd ever happen though.
In reply to Removed User:
you don't need a biner to ab from so why bother taking the risk?
(of course if its a working load rating it will be fine IMO)
you don't need a biner to ab from so why bother taking the risk?
(of course if its a working load rating it will be fine IMO)
Post edited at 16:04
In reply to AndrewW:
Properly tested and marked up at 230kg minimum breaking load by a manufacturer I trusted? Happy... no but I would do so if there were no better option. Then I'd kick myself for getting into the kind of mess where that was the best remaining option.
Chinese key ring with 230kg printed on it... forget it.
jk
> Would you be happy to ab. 20m off a thin snaplink rated to hold 230kg?
Properly tested and marked up at 230kg minimum breaking load by a manufacturer I trusted? Happy... no but I would do so if there were no better option. Then I'd kick myself for getting into the kind of mess where that was the best remaining option.
Chinese key ring with 230kg printed on it... forget it.
jk
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Because it's a hypothetical and the OP is specifically asking if you'd take the risk? My answer is yes.
Because it's a hypothetical and the OP is specifically asking if you'd take the risk? My answer is yes.
In reply to AndrewW:
Thin snaplink, removed 20m+ up a route, looked like a 50p DIY special, no markings on it other 230kg. Wouldn't have fancied it myself, wondered what you guys (and/or gals) would have thought of it. No apparent consesus thought it seems.
Thin snaplink, removed 20m+ up a route, looked like a 50p DIY special, no markings on it other 230kg. Wouldn't have fancied it myself, wondered what you guys (and/or gals) would have thought of it. No apparent consesus thought it seems.
In reply to AndrewW:
You've given us more information than we had in the original post now, though. Still hard to say without seeing it but I wouldn't rule it out - presumably you can load it with your anchor backed up until happy ?
You've given us more information than we had in the original post now, though. Still hard to say without seeing it but I wouldn't rule it out - presumably you can load it with your anchor backed up until happy ?
In reply to AndrewW:
Why didn't you just chuck a picture of it on tinypic/imgur in the first place? It takes all of 20 seconds to do..
Why didn't you just chuck a picture of it on tinypic/imgur in the first place? It takes all of 20 seconds to do..
Post edited at 19:50
In reply to AndrewW:
If it was one of these: http://www.opas.co.uk/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetai... (if that link works)
I'd agree with jkarran's post above. Wouldn't plan to do it, wouldn't be thrilled about it, but would ab off it.
If it was one of these: http://www.opas.co.uk/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetai... (if that link works)
I'd agree with jkarran's post above. Wouldn't plan to do it, wouldn't be thrilled about it, but would ab off it.
In reply to SCrossley:
Lowering off dodgy gear is way more scarey than abseiling ! the action of the rope running over the gear adds more stress plus you have the pulley action effectively doubling the load.
Lowering off dodgy gear is way more scarey than abseiling ! the action of the rope running over the gear adds more stress plus you have the pulley action effectively doubling the load.
In reply to AndrewW:
Couldn't you just abseil off whatever the krab was attached to and miss it out altogether?
I carry a number of things on old snapgates I've retired from regular use like my nutkey, pertex windproof, guidebook pouch and camera. I regard these as my bail biners not some dodgy keyring I might find on a route.
Couldn't you just abseil off whatever the krab was attached to and miss it out altogether?
I carry a number of things on old snapgates I've retired from regular use like my nutkey, pertex windproof, guidebook pouch and camera. I regard these as my bail biners not some dodgy keyring I might find on a route.
In reply to GrahamD:
Is that right? I would have thought, and I am not challenging you here, that abbing on a grippy plate like an ATC would be more jerky and would weight the gear more, also if being lowered off a sports route you could keep your eye on the maillon whatever whilst still being protected by the draw in place immediately below it, hope that makes sense.
Is that right? I would have thought, and I am not challenging you here, that abbing on a grippy plate like an ATC would be more jerky and would weight the gear more, also if being lowered off a sports route you could keep your eye on the maillon whatever whilst still being protected by the draw in place immediately below it, hope that makes sense.
In reply to SCrossley:
It is right, yes.
Try thinking about it this way - if you're abbing it's just you hanging off the anchor, but if you're being lowered your belayer is hanging off it too.
Jerky abbing is bad, true enough, the answer to that is to abseil smoothly.
Obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route. Though if the top is really dodgy, maybe it would be worth sacrificing a bit of gear.
> Is that right? I would have thought, and I am not challenging you here, that abbing on a grippy plate like an ATC would be more jerky and would weight the gear more, also if being lowered off a sports route you could keep your eye on the maillon whatever whilst still being protected by the draw in place immediately below it, hope that makes sense.
It is right, yes.
Try thinking about it this way - if you're abbing it's just you hanging off the anchor, but if you're being lowered your belayer is hanging off it too.
Jerky abbing is bad, true enough, the answer to that is to abseil smoothly.
Obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route. Though if the top is really dodgy, maybe it would be worth sacrificing a bit of gear.
In reply to pec:
Depends what the carabiner is clipped to, I wouldn't want a rope running through a sling or through a stamped metal bolt hanger.
I was thinking similar, if you've got a whole rack of gear then surely you can afford to lose a single full strength clipper rather than risk it for £4 ish.
The crag swag gods will reward you eventually anyhow.
> Couldn't you just abseil off whatever the krab was attached to and miss it out altogether?
Depends what the carabiner is clipped to, I wouldn't want a rope running through a sling or through a stamped metal bolt hanger.
> I carry a number of things on old snapgates I've retired from regular use like my nutkey, pertex windproof, guidebook pouch and camera. I regard these as my bail biners not some dodgy keyring I might find on a route.
I was thinking similar, if you've got a whole rack of gear then surely you can afford to lose a single full strength clipper rather than risk it for £4 ish.
The crag swag gods will reward you eventually anyhow.
In reply to deepsoup:
So more weight, i`ll have to get my head around that. My weight plus the counterbalance of belayer, never appreciated that. Thanks
> It is right, yes.
> Try thinking about it this way - if you're abbing it's just you hanging off the anchor, but if you're being lowered your belayer is hanging off it too.
>
So more weight, i`ll have to get my head around that. My weight plus the counterbalance of belayer, never appreciated that. Thanks
In reply to deepsoup:
Yes you can!
See backing off a single pitch here!
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/Solutions-Sport-climbing...
> Obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route. Though if the top is really dodgy, maybe it would be worth sacrificing a bit of gear.
Yes you can!
See backing off a single pitch here!
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/Solutions-Sport-climbing...
In reply to SCrossley:
This is why it's very easy to break a krab when falling onto it where the gate might be forced open. Theoretically, You create more force this way than in a factor 2 fall onto the same gear!
> So more weight, i`ll have to get my head around that. My weight plus the counterbalance of belayer, never appreciated that. Thanks
This is why it's very easy to break a krab when falling onto it where the gate might be forced open. Theoretically, You create more force this way than in a factor 2 fall onto the same gear!
Post edited at 22:38
In reply to AndrewW:
Yes -- If it's properly rated at 230kg, and CE certified. It's failing load should be at least twice that. For abbing (with no shock loading) it should be fine.
I dread to think what the true SWL was of the 10 Dirham D shackles ( think £ 1.50) bought from some rather iffy hardware shops in Sharjah in the UAE that were used for using in conjunction with home made pegs, so that the ploypropylene abseil tat we used would not get cut by the rough edges where the eyes had been punched in the mild steel --- Most ab points were rigged with 2 pegs and shackles -- just in case!
At the time there were no climbing gear shops over there, and we didn't want to abandon valuable Krabs that would probably not get replaced for several months.
Quite a few climbers used them and we're all still not dead - though some of us are getting pretty old these days!
Yes -- If it's properly rated at 230kg, and CE certified. It's failing load should be at least twice that. For abbing (with no shock loading) it should be fine.
I dread to think what the true SWL was of the 10 Dirham D shackles ( think £ 1.50) bought from some rather iffy hardware shops in Sharjah in the UAE that were used for using in conjunction with home made pegs, so that the ploypropylene abseil tat we used would not get cut by the rough edges where the eyes had been punched in the mild steel --- Most ab points were rigged with 2 pegs and shackles -- just in case!
At the time there were no climbing gear shops over there, and we didn't want to abandon valuable Krabs that would probably not get replaced for several months.
Quite a few climbers used them and we're all still not dead - though some of us are getting pretty old these days!
Post edited at 22:46
In reply to CurlyStevo:
That's neat.
(I was talking about abbing off, rather than being lowered though.)
That's neat.
(I was talking about abbing off, rather than being lowered though.)
In reply to deepsoup:
Whilst the person you were replying to was talking about being lowered off and you didn't further qualify what you meant.
"In reply to SCrossley:
...
Obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route. Though if the top is really dodgy, maybe it would be worth sacrificing a bit of gear. "
> That's neat.
> (I was talking about abbing off, rather than being lowered though.)
Whilst the person you were replying to was talking about being lowered off and you didn't further qualify what you meant.
"In reply to SCrossley:
> ...
> also if being lowered off a sports route you could keep your eye on the maillon whatever whilst still being protected by the draw in place immediately below it, hope that makes sense.
...
Obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route. Though if the top is really dodgy, maybe it would be worth sacrificing a bit of gear. "
Post edited at 08:16
In reply to GrahamD:
I don't think it doubles the load?
"The stresses placed on a bolt when lowering or rappelling are therefore
practically identical."
From the link posted above. http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/Solutions-Sport-climbing...
> Lowering off dodgy gear is way more scarey than abseiling ! the action of the rope running over the gear adds more stress plus you have the pulley action effectively doubling the load.
I don't think it doubles the load?
"The stresses placed on a bolt when lowering or rappelling are therefore
practically identical."
From the link posted above. http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/Solutions-Sport-climbing...
In reply to professionalwreckhead:
Yeah I guess that is because of friction on the top biner if you had a perfect pully up there it would double the load, (assuming the belayer is the same weight or heavier than the climber.
Yeah I guess that is because of friction on the top biner if you had a perfect pully up there it would double the load, (assuming the belayer is the same weight or heavier than the climber.
Post edited at 08:40
In reply to deepsoup:
I'm not convinced. It would double the load if the belayer was lifted off the deck or if the belayer had to sit down on the rope but friction in the system would prevent the full weight coming to bear and paying the rope out would drop it too. When I'm belaying someone of equal weight a lot of weight is still pressing down through my feet.
> (In reply to SCrossley)
> [...]
>
> Try thinking about it this way - if you're abbing it's just you hanging off the anchor, but if you're being lowered your belayer is hanging off it too.
>
> [...]
>
> Try thinking about it this way - if you're abbing it's just you hanging off the anchor, but if you're being lowered your belayer is hanging off it too.
>
I'm not convinced. It would double the load if the belayer was lifted off the deck or if the belayer had to sit down on the rope but friction in the system would prevent the full weight coming to bear and paying the rope out would drop it too. When I'm belaying someone of equal weight a lot of weight is still pressing down through my feet.
In reply to AndrewW:
Yes - sorry. Made a rather poor job of explaining myself in the original post. No idea why I said abbing, I meant lowering. Senior moment. Came across the snap-link whilst climbing a sport route. Previous leader had climbed 20 odd metres to the crux, presumably failed on it and bailed on the said DIY special. Can't provide photo as didn t keep it.
Yes - sorry. Made a rather poor job of explaining myself in the original post. No idea why I said abbing, I meant lowering. Senior moment. Came across the snap-link whilst climbing a sport route. Previous leader had climbed 20 odd metres to the crux, presumably failed on it and bailed on the said DIY special. Can't provide photo as didn t keep it.
In reply to professionalwreckhead:
Its somewhere between 1 x and 2 x depending on friction. You never have so much friction through a single lower off point that the strand of rope going to the belayer isn't significantly loaded - otherwise why bother with a belay device ?
> I don't think it doubles the load?
Its somewhere between 1 x and 2 x depending on friction. You never have so much friction through a single lower off point that the strand of rope going to the belayer isn't significantly loaded - otherwise why bother with a belay device ?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The person I was replying to was talking about both abbing and being lowered off, comparatively. My reply had three paragraphs, the first two unambiguously about abseiling, and the third I'll grant you was a tad ambiguous. So, er.. whatever.
(Or, if you prefer: gosh, I'm ever so sorry about that!)
> Whilst the person you were replying to was talking about being lowered off and you didn't further qualify what you meant.
The person I was replying to was talking about both abbing and being lowered off, comparatively. My reply had three paragraphs, the first two unambiguously about abseiling, and the third I'll grant you was a tad ambiguous. So, er.. whatever.
(Or, if you prefer: gosh, I'm ever so sorry about that!)
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
I agree, it doesn't double the load but clearly it does increase it somewhat.
If there's good gear below. maybe it would be safer to lower off with a prusik. There's to much "it depends" going on to say one thing will always be better than the other, eh?
Anyway, to the thread in general..
I don't think the OP was really asking "would you?" so much, as expressing suprise that someone apparently already had. No accounting for taste I suppose.
> I'm not convinced. It would double the load if ...
I agree, it doesn't double the load but clearly it does increase it somewhat.
If there's good gear below. maybe it would be safer to lower off with a prusik. There's to much "it depends" going on to say one thing will always be better than the other, eh?
Anyway, to the thread in general..
I don't think the OP was really asking "would you?" so much, as expressing suprise that someone apparently already had. No accounting for taste I suppose.
In reply to professionalwreckhead:
I think they mean 'identical for all practical purposes in the given context' ie in comparison to the supposed strength of the bolt anchor. Which would be reasonable given the figures they quote of ~100daN vs 2500daN (assuming, of course, that the bolt is sound). I don't think that they succeed in making their point very well, though. And what if you're having to descend from a single piece of trad gear: would you always trust that to be good for 25kN? That "negligible" difference* could be all the difference in the world in that kind of scenario, if you were ever daft/unlucky enough to get into it.
* Actually it's just shy of 28%. Would you regard a 28% pay cut as "negligible"?!
> "The stresses placed on a bolt when lowering or rappelling are therefore practically identical."
> From the link posted above. http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/Solutions-Sport-climbing...
I think they mean 'identical for all practical purposes in the given context' ie in comparison to the supposed strength of the bolt anchor. Which would be reasonable given the figures they quote of ~100daN vs 2500daN (assuming, of course, that the bolt is sound). I don't think that they succeed in making their point very well, though. And what if you're having to descend from a single piece of trad gear: would you always trust that to be good for 25kN? That "negligible" difference* could be all the difference in the world in that kind of scenario, if you were ever daft/unlucky enough to get into it.
* Actually it's just shy of 28%. Would you regard a 28% pay cut as "negligible"?!
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
> friction in the system would prevent the full weight coming to bear
True - the limiting case being so much friction that the climber being lowered is effectively hanging off the krab (but then you couldn't lower them) so the load must be between 1x and 2x as stated above> and paying the rope out would drop it too.
False - if you pay the rope out at a constant rate the force will be unaltered. If you pay it out at an accelerating rate it will be lessened. The limiting case being you pay out the rope at 9.8 metres per second per second (equal to gravitational acceleration)at which point the climber will effectively be falling and the force will be zero. If you realise your mistake and decrease the rate at which you are paying out, this will increase the force beyond that in a steady lower. In reality you are bound to accelerate and decelerate somewhat which will increase the peak instantaneous loading beyond the load of the climber when still or moving steadily.In reply to deepsoup:
I have to
Not really I don't care that much but i find it odd you are arguing point it's very clear scrossley said:
"also if being lowered off a sports route you could keep your eye on the maillon whatever whilst still being protected by the draw in place immediately below it,"
He doesn't mention the draw anywhere else and he clearly says being lowered not abing so your reply wasn't really correct ("obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route") as the draw below the climber can protect you still as I pointed out, as when you strip one the next one below can protect you using the Prussic as per the petzl site info I linked to. (until you remove the last draw). I'm guessing you just didn't read what he wrote properly and assumed he meant 'ab' when he wrote 'lower'. In any case how often to you strip a sports route by abseiling?
I have to
> The person I was replying to was talking about both abbing and being lowered off, comparatively. My reply had three paragraphs, the first two unambiguously about abseiling, and the third I'll grant you was a tad ambiguous. So, er.. whatever.
> (Or, if you prefer: gosh, I'm ever so sorry about that!
Not really I don't care that much but i find it odd you are arguing point it's very clear scrossley said:
"also if being lowered off a sports route you could keep your eye on the maillon whatever whilst still being protected by the draw in place immediately below it,"
He doesn't mention the draw anywhere else and he clearly says being lowered not abing so your reply wasn't really correct ("obviously you can't continue to be protected by the 'draw below if you're stripping the route") as the draw below the climber can protect you still as I pointed out, as when you strip one the next one below can protect you using the Prussic as per the petzl site info I linked to. (until you remove the last draw). I'm guessing you just didn't read what he wrote properly and assumed he meant 'ab' when he wrote 'lower'. In any case how often to you strip a sports route by abseiling?
Post edited at 23:54
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