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Kirstie Allsopp has offered her thoughts on what young women should do. I thought some of my esteemed fellow UKCers would enjoy it... any thoughts?
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/jun/02/kirstie-allsop-young-wo...
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/jun/02/kirstie-allsop-young-wo...
In reply to Tall Clare:
My initial thought is that it's all very well to say wait till you're older before having a career, but when you're older I think many would be much less physically able to endure the long hours and committment required to progress up the career ladder than they could if they'd done it when they were younger.
I no longer work anywhere near the hours I did when I was in my 20's; that's partly out of personal choice, but mostly out of an inability to do so, at least on a regular basis.
My initial thought is that it's all very well to say wait till you're older before having a career, but when you're older I think many would be much less physically able to endure the long hours and committment required to progress up the career ladder than they could if they'd done it when they were younger.
I no longer work anywhere near the hours I did when I was in my 20's; that's partly out of personal choice, but mostly out of an inability to do so, at least on a regular basis.
In reply to Tall Clare:
Fairly amusing in several ways: 1) Thinking of the various other threads insisting women aren't just here to breed, yet here we have a feminist suggesting pretty much just that, 2) A rather bizarre detachment from reality if she thinks going to university at 50 will be anything like as beneficial as at 18, 3) Imagine if her advice had been placed on here by a man...
Fairly amusing in several ways: 1) Thinking of the various other threads insisting women aren't just here to breed, yet here we have a feminist suggesting pretty much just that, 2) A rather bizarre detachment from reality if she thinks going to university at 50 will be anything like as beneficial as at 18, 3) Imagine if her advice had been placed on here by a man...
Post edited at 13:40
In reply to MG:
I think the question of whether she is a feminist, is probably salient to your first comment. We could probably say that self identifying is fine, but if we do probably can't give the fact that she identifies as a feminist a great deal of authority.
I think the question of whether she is a feminist, is probably salient to your first comment. We could probably say that self identifying is fine, but if we do probably can't give the fact that she identifies as a feminist a great deal of authority.
In reply to Tall Clare:
I wonder what the "system" is that she's talking about?
Also, when she talks about being bogged down, is she talking about having kids? If it's just being bogged down, why bother?
I wonder what the "system" is that she's talking about?
Also, when she talks about being bogged down, is she talking about having kids? If it's just being bogged down, why bother?
Post edited at 13:59
In reply to Tall Clare:
As a bloke, I would say leaving school as a young lady, getting a job, then meeting a lovely guy with great prospects, then getting married and starting a family at 27. See your children grow up, then doing an OU degree in a subject you have grown to become really interested in whilst financially secure seems like a pretty good wicket
But I understand how many girls would find it offensive being told that's what you should do
As a bloke, I would say leaving school as a young lady, getting a job, then meeting a lovely guy with great prospects, then getting married and starting a family at 27. See your children grow up, then doing an OU degree in a subject you have grown to become really interested in whilst financially secure seems like a pretty good wicket
But I understand how many girls would find it offensive being told that's what you should do
In reply to Tall Clare:
If people prefer to read the original article in the Telegraph, rather than the version reported in the Grauniad, it's here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/10868367/Ki...
I'm afraid that I can't get out of my head the fact that Ms Alsopp comes from a ridiculously privileged background. And having read the Telegraph article, I think this is obvious from the advice she says she would offer to her daughter:
"...I’d be saying 'Darling, do you know what? Don’t go to university. Start work straight after school, stay at home, save up your deposit – I’ll help you, let’s get you into a flat. And then we can find you a nice boyfriend and you can have a baby by the time you’re 27.'"
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
If people prefer to read the original article in the Telegraph, rather than the version reported in the Grauniad, it's here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/10868367/Ki...
I'm afraid that I can't get out of my head the fact that Ms Alsopp comes from a ridiculously privileged background. And having read the Telegraph article, I think this is obvious from the advice she says she would offer to her daughter:
"...I’d be saying 'Darling, do you know what? Don’t go to university. Start work straight after school, stay at home, save up your deposit – I’ll help you, let’s get you into a flat. And then we can find you a nice boyfriend and you can have a baby by the time you’re 27.'"
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
In reply to Martin W:
...she leaves school at 16, is knocked up by 17, has multiple kids by multiple men and lives the rest of her life on the social?
> If people prefer to read the original article in the Telegraph, rather than the version reported in the Grauniad, it's here:www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/10868367/Kirstie-Allsopp-I-dont-want...
> I'm afraid that I can't get out of my head the fact that Ms Alsopp comes from a ridiculously privileged background. And having read the Telegraph article, I think this is obvious from the advice she says she would offer to her daughter:
> "...I’d be saying 'Darling, do you know what? Don’t go to university. Start work straight after school, stay at home, save up your deposit – I’ll help you, let’s get you into a flat. And then we can find you a nice boyfriend and you can have a baby by the time you’re 27.'"
> Meanwhile, back in the real world...
...she leaves school at 16, is knocked up by 17, has multiple kids by multiple men and lives the rest of her life on the social?
In reply to Tall Clare:
Not as bad as Councillor Cutts (ex tory leader of Notts CC) who said every girl should get a pony to learn discipline and take their mind off bad habits.
Not as bad as Councillor Cutts (ex tory leader of Notts CC) who said every girl should get a pony to learn discipline and take their mind off bad habits.
In reply to Offwidth:
Superb!
> Not as bad as Councillor Cutts (ex tory leader of Notts CC) who said every girl should get a pony to learn discipline and take their mind off bad habits.
Superb!
In reply to Tall Clare:
I think its an interesting point for discussion. I do notice that parents seem to have split into 2 categories, older parents and younger parents.
Maybe if people really want to have kids then not risking waiting until the woman is in her late 30s might be good advice. I don't see that its necessary to skip university though.
I think its an interesting point for discussion. I do notice that parents seem to have split into 2 categories, older parents and younger parents.
Maybe if people really want to have kids then not risking waiting until the woman is in her late 30s might be good advice. I don't see that its necessary to skip university though.
In reply to Tall Clare:
Not only do we have to pay for the privilege of dull witted Aristos entertaining us on our national treasure, we get to hear their great insights into 'what women should do' - women they have little or nothing in common with except a minge and a pair of tits.
She's right about weddings though. Everyone of them these days is like an episode of Dynasty. How about some pork pies, beer and soul people instead of working it at a stately home?
D
Not only do we have to pay for the privilege of dull witted Aristos entertaining us on our national treasure, we get to hear their great insights into 'what women should do' - women they have little or nothing in common with except a minge and a pair of tits.
She's right about weddings though. Everyone of them these days is like an episode of Dynasty. How about some pork pies, beer and soul people instead of working it at a stately home?
D
Post edited at 18:46
In reply to Tall Clare:
Shes a bloody over Privileged Idiot, overbearing, patronising, thinks she has some Kind of god given right to tell people how they should Live their Lives. The pair of them can Take their Puffy, saggy, faces and sod off.
allsop a feminist, my arse!
Shes a bloody over Privileged Idiot, overbearing, patronising, thinks she has some Kind of god given right to tell people how they should Live their Lives. The pair of them can Take their Puffy, saggy, faces and sod off.
allsop a feminist, my arse!
In reply to Choss:
Not often I agree with you, but +1
> Shes a bloody over Privileged Idiot, overbearing, patronising, thinks she has some Kind of god given right to tell people how they should Live their Lives. The pair of them can Take their Puffy, saggy, faces and sod off.
> allsop a feminist, my arse!
Not often I agree with you, but +1
In reply to Ridge:
And by the pair of them, i Meant evil allsop and that vile screeching Katie Hopkins harpie woman thing.
And by the pair of them, i Meant evil allsop and that vile screeching Katie Hopkins harpie woman thing.
In reply to Tall Clare:
A friend seems to have done okay in going to UNI then meeting her husband a fair few years afterwards, and having a son at 35.
She's a business consultant of some kind with an MA or BA, I forget which, either way she's happy.
It's possible Kirstie Allsopp has a point that people probably shouldn't go to uni for the experience, because while not being quite the same, there's other ways of meeting a lot of a different people and being exposed to new things, but it doesn't feel like something I'd tell my nieces.
What about being in competition with women (and men) who did go to UNI, and are more qualified at a similar age?
Biologically she talks sense, but it's not always (ever?) possible to make life fit to a plan like she describes.
A friend seems to have done okay in going to UNI then meeting her husband a fair few years afterwards, and having a son at 35.
She's a business consultant of some kind with an MA or BA, I forget which, either way she's happy.
It's possible Kirstie Allsopp has a point that people probably shouldn't go to uni for the experience, because while not being quite the same, there's other ways of meeting a lot of a different people and being exposed to new things, but it doesn't feel like something I'd tell my nieces.
What about being in competition with women (and men) who did go to UNI, and are more qualified at a similar age?
Biologically she talks sense, but it's not always (ever?) possible to make life fit to a plan like she describes.
Post edited at 23:23
In reply to Tall Clare:
Did someone drop the silver service on her head? Just what the world needs - more babies. Of course, with the world's population in serious decline and no existing kids needing parents, I can see her point, and the surfeit of jobs needing filled....
Did someone drop the silver service on her head? Just what the world needs - more babies. Of course, with the world's population in serious decline and no existing kids needing parents, I can see her point, and the surfeit of jobs needing filled....
In reply to Tall Clare:
On reading the headline I recoiled. But on further reading I thought it was one of those things where they had simplified what she had said.
I think she was trying to say that everyone shouldn't feel pushed into following a single route if it wasn't right for them, and that we should be more flexible about when people go to university, rather than meaning it is right for all women.
I did think she seemed to think that all women would want kids, and that this was the important function of a woman's life. She didn't seem to have the idea that a woman might love learning, be very ambitious, and need to get into a field early if she wants to do well in it.
On reading the headline I recoiled. But on further reading I thought it was one of those things where they had simplified what she had said.
I think she was trying to say that everyone shouldn't feel pushed into following a single route if it wasn't right for them, and that we should be more flexible about when people go to university, rather than meaning it is right for all women.
I did think she seemed to think that all women would want kids, and that this was the important function of a woman's life. She didn't seem to have the idea that a woman might love learning, be very ambitious, and need to get into a field early if she wants to do well in it.
In reply to tlm:
it would be interesting to see some figures (numerical) on how many women do and do not have children in their lifetime
it would be interesting to see some figures (numerical) on how many women do and do not have children in their lifetime
In reply to ow arm:
http://tinyurl.com/nvb5kfj
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5637417/One-in-five-women-stay-child...
> it would be interesting to see some figures (numerical) on how many women do and do not have children in their lifetime
http://tinyurl.com/nvb5kfj
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5637417/One-in-five-women-stay-child...
In reply to tlm:
I think you were right to recoil. I read it as a different way of saying "this is how you should live your life". It was saying, you're a young woman therefore you want babies and to be married, go do that before following what are people are saying.
I think it's very good that there's less of the "everyone needs to go to uni because it's the only way you'll ever get a job and you'll leave rich and happy and the world is your oyster" bullshit that was all you heard up until a few years ago, but isnt' the point to try and offer choices and different routes, not push another on people?
and isn't the "leave school, meet someone, have babies" just encouraging the idea that coupling up to breed is what's important rather than recognising that the 'meet someone' can't be rushed? Yay more people making decisions they're not ready for and regretting them later! woo!
urgh. No. not impressed by her comments at all.
> On reading the headline I recoiled. But on further reading I thought it was one of those things where they had simplified what she had said.
> I think she was trying to say that everyone shouldn't feel pushed into following a single route if it wasn't right for them, and that we should be more flexible about when people go to university, rather than meaning it is right for all women.
> I did think she seemed to think that all women would want kids, and that this was the important function of a woman's life. She didn't seem to have the idea that a woman might love learning, be very ambitious, and need to get into a field early if she wants to do well in it.
I think you were right to recoil. I read it as a different way of saying "this is how you should live your life". It was saying, you're a young woman therefore you want babies and to be married, go do that before following what are people are saying.
I think it's very good that there's less of the "everyone needs to go to uni because it's the only way you'll ever get a job and you'll leave rich and happy and the world is your oyster" bullshit that was all you heard up until a few years ago, but isnt' the point to try and offer choices and different routes, not push another on people?
and isn't the "leave school, meet someone, have babies" just encouraging the idea that coupling up to breed is what's important rather than recognising that the 'meet someone' can't be rushed? Yay more people making decisions they're not ready for and regretting them later! woo!
urgh. No. not impressed by her comments at all.
In reply to ow arm:
Ah - this is more like it...
http://tinyurl.com/oerxe23
"Around one fifth of women are childless at age 45
Part of Cohort Fertility, England and Wales, 2012 Release"
Ah - this is more like it...
http://tinyurl.com/oerxe23
"Around one fifth of women are childless at age 45
Part of Cohort Fertility, England and Wales, 2012 Release"
In reply to tlm:
I think in the US it's even more, something like 25% of women born in 1969 haven't had kids. CBA to google it ATM though. I do recall that the percentage was predicted to rise...
I think in the US it's even more, something like 25% of women born in 1969 haven't had kids. CBA to google it ATM though. I do recall that the percentage was predicted to rise...
In reply to Tall Clare:
Opinion is to a large extent dictated to by environment. As we live in an increasingly homogenised media stream it would seem she is trying to provide some weight to an alternative route beyond that which is pushed by advertising and marketing agencies i.e. gotta to be dressed right, got to be qualified, got to have the right gadgets, got to have a nice car, got have a great job, got to fit in whilst being totally different and something new!
I think she should be congratulated enough for forming an opinion and putting it out there.
If you disagree with her you should try and understand her perspective and respect the qualities of her personality required to be who she is and do what she does.
In my opinion young women should wear less clothes if they are fit and stay at home if they are not
Opinion is to a large extent dictated to by environment. As we live in an increasingly homogenised media stream it would seem she is trying to provide some weight to an alternative route beyond that which is pushed by advertising and marketing agencies i.e. gotta to be dressed right, got to be qualified, got to have the right gadgets, got to have a nice car, got have a great job, got to fit in whilst being totally different and something new!
I think she should be congratulated enough for forming an opinion and putting it out there.
If you disagree with her you should try and understand her perspective and respect the qualities of her personality required to be who she is and do what she does.
In my opinion young women should wear less clothes if they are fit and stay at home if they are not
In reply to tlm:
I think it can work either way - I went to uni, got reasonably established in a career, moved to the Lakes and changed careers, had kids in my early/mid 30s, kept working part time, about to step things up again now both kids at school. Probably couldn't have managed that if I was still working in research, though. A colleague had her first baby at 16, got a reasonable job and progressed well including OU qualifications (around another baby in her 20s), and her kids will likely have left home by the time she's in her 40s.
Kind of assumes you want kids, though......
I think it can work either way - I went to uni, got reasonably established in a career, moved to the Lakes and changed careers, had kids in my early/mid 30s, kept working part time, about to step things up again now both kids at school. Probably couldn't have managed that if I was still working in research, though. A colleague had her first baby at 16, got a reasonable job and progressed well including OU qualifications (around another baby in her 20s), and her kids will likely have left home by the time she's in her 40s.
Kind of assumes you want kids, though......
In reply to Tall Clare:
Women should study for degrees by distance learning when they have just given birth. It's not as if they're doing anything else and they have all that time off.
Women should study for degrees by distance learning when they have just given birth. It's not as if they're doing anything else and they have all that time off.
In reply to Carolyn:
That's the thing. If you are a woman, and don't get any education, and don't have any work aspirations, and don't have much autonomy, then having kids and a husband might be the extent of your aspiration.
If you have a choice, then children might be your number one priority, or they might not. There are far too many children in the world, and so some women not wanting them is a pretty good thing in terms of how likely the human species is likely to survive.
We don't really make a big deal out of men having children or not having them in the same way that we do for women. I know there aren't the time constraints, but I think it is more to do with the value of a man being seen in how much power he has, rather than in his home life.
> Kind of assumes you want kids, though......
That's the thing. If you are a woman, and don't get any education, and don't have any work aspirations, and don't have much autonomy, then having kids and a husband might be the extent of your aspiration.
If you have a choice, then children might be your number one priority, or they might not. There are far too many children in the world, and so some women not wanting them is a pretty good thing in terms of how likely the human species is likely to survive.
We don't really make a big deal out of men having children or not having them in the same way that we do for women. I know there aren't the time constraints, but I think it is more to do with the value of a man being seen in how much power he has, rather than in his home life.
In reply to tlm:
"We don't really make a big deal out of men having children or not having them in the same way that we do for women. I know there aren't the time constraints, but I think it is more to do with the value of a man being seen in how much power he has, rather than in his home life."
Yes, I read something the other day that said of parents, "Women are mothers first, women second; men are men first, fathers second".
"We don't really make a big deal out of men having children or not having them in the same way that we do for women. I know there aren't the time constraints, but I think it is more to do with the value of a man being seen in how much power he has, rather than in his home life."
Yes, I read something the other day that said of parents, "Women are mothers first, women second; men are men first, fathers second".
In reply to Timmd:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24128176
Not convinced she does talk sense actually.
> Biologically she talks sense, but it's not always (ever?) possible to make life fit to a plan like she describes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24128176
Not convinced she does talk sense actually.
In reply to Scarab9:
Seems totally unrealistic as well.
Girl somehow finds work without a uni qualification that allows her to save up a deposit on a flat by the age of 26?
Then miraculously finds bloke who within a year or two has committed to having a kid?
The chap seems to be little more than breeding stock and a financial provider in the whole equation; what about his lack of a biological clock and likelihood of not being ready to fund the 27 year old wife's endeavour of instant parenthood and later further eduction?
And at what age is the "afterwards" she refers to when saying "having [kids] early will allow couples to concentrate on careers and education afterwards".
Pretty offensive, old fashioned and one sided in my opinion.
> I think you were right to recoil. I read it as a different way of saying "this is how you should live your life".
Seems totally unrealistic as well.
Girl somehow finds work without a uni qualification that allows her to save up a deposit on a flat by the age of 26?
Then miraculously finds bloke who within a year or two has committed to having a kid?
The chap seems to be little more than breeding stock and a financial provider in the whole equation; what about his lack of a biological clock and likelihood of not being ready to fund the 27 year old wife's endeavour of instant parenthood and later further eduction?
And at what age is the "afterwards" she refers to when saying "having [kids] early will allow couples to concentrate on careers and education afterwards".
Pretty offensive, old fashioned and one sided in my opinion.
In reply to 98%monkey:
...got to have the right house in exactly the right location. What is the tv program she presents again?
> Opinion is to a large extent dictated to by environment. As we live in an increasingly homogenised media stream it would seem she is trying to provide some weight to an alternative route beyond that which is pushed by advertising and marketing agencies i.e. gotta to be dressed right, got to be qualified, got to have the right gadgets, got to have a nice car...
...got to have the right house in exactly the right location. What is the tv program she presents again?
In reply to Tall Clare:
So, unmarried, childless, but otherwise rather priviliged, Kirsty has shared her expertise on marriage, parenting and low income budgeting?
Did I miss something?
So, unmarried, childless, but otherwise rather priviliged, Kirsty has shared her expertise on marriage, parenting and low income budgeting?
Did I miss something?
In reply to 98%monkey:
It doesn't seem so surprising that people get depressed if you put it like that, with society apparently becoming more atomised as well. A cheery thought.
Smash the media. ()
> Opinion is to a large extent dictated to by environment. As we live in an increasingly homogenised media stream it would seem she is trying to provide some weight to an alternative route beyond that which is pushed by advertising and marketing agencies i.e. gotta to be dressed right, got to be qualified, got to have the right gadgets, got to have a nice car, got have a great job, got to fit in whilst being totally different and something new!
It doesn't seem so surprising that people get depressed if you put it like that, with society apparently becoming more atomised as well. A cheery thought.
Smash the media. ()
Post edited at 13:42
In reply to David Martin:
Yeah - she didn't even manage to follow her own advice.
I don't quite get why she thinks women aren't aware of the constraints on their age with regards to having children. We are all brought up thinking that you MUST avoid getting pregnant at all costs, that it's really easy to get pregnant, that you don't even need to have intercourse, that there is no safe time of the month, that your life will be ruined if you do...
Then at some point, the pressure switches to you MUST get pregnant at all costs, that it's really hard to get pregnant, that you have to lie on your back with your legs in the air, that there are only 3 days a month when it might be possible, that your life will be ruined if you don't...
How on earth does she think any woman anywhere would avoid the pressure?!!
> Seems totally unrealistic as well.
Yeah - she didn't even manage to follow her own advice.
I don't quite get why she thinks women aren't aware of the constraints on their age with regards to having children. We are all brought up thinking that you MUST avoid getting pregnant at all costs, that it's really easy to get pregnant, that you don't even need to have intercourse, that there is no safe time of the month, that your life will be ruined if you do...
Then at some point, the pressure switches to you MUST get pregnant at all costs, that it's really hard to get pregnant, that you have to lie on your back with your legs in the air, that there are only 3 days a month when it might be possible, that your life will be ruined if you don't...
How on earth does she think any woman anywhere would avoid the pressure?!!
In reply to JJL:
Yeah - her two sons.
> So, unmarried, childless, but otherwise rather priviliged, Kirsty has shared her expertise on marriage, parenting and low income budgeting?
> Did I miss something?
Yeah - her two sons.
In reply to tlm:
I think the university element of her argument is worthy of discussion. It isn't a guarantee of a good job and a successful career. But is likely to get you in debt with an unrealistic expectation of your job prospects and earnings.
Unless you are pretty sure what you want to do and it needs a degree to get you there, I would say putting uni off is not a bad idea at all.
I think the university element of her argument is worthy of discussion. It isn't a guarantee of a good job and a successful career. But is likely to get you in debt with an unrealistic expectation of your job prospects and earnings.
Unless you are pretty sure what you want to do and it needs a degree to get you there, I would say putting uni off is not a bad idea at all.
In reply to tlm:
I don't think it's an utterly belief. I know a fair few women who've got a good degree, had a high presure career (and perhaps felt some obligation that they shouldn't "waste" their education), and then found it harder to get pregnant at 40-ish than they'd expected. And have heard second hand stories of women who've assumed they'll be able to get pregnant later with ivf if necessary (and having a very well paid career for 20 years, aren't worried about the cost).
Not that there's any guarantee it would have happened at the drop of a hat at 25, of course. Even if they'd found a husband, which, given most of them met their partners at uni, might be an issue....
> How on earth does she think any woman anywhere would avoid the pressure?!!
I don't think it's an utterly belief. I know a fair few women who've got a good degree, had a high presure career (and perhaps felt some obligation that they shouldn't "waste" their education), and then found it harder to get pregnant at 40-ish than they'd expected. And have heard second hand stories of women who've assumed they'll be able to get pregnant later with ivf if necessary (and having a very well paid career for 20 years, aren't worried about the cost).
Not that there's any guarantee it would have happened at the drop of a hat at 25, of course. Even if they'd found a husband, which, given most of them met their partners at uni, might be an issue....
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Oh I would agree with that for anyone. You should be going to uni FOR a reason, not because you don't know what else to do with your life and are scared of getting a job.
> Unless you are pretty sure what you want to do and it needs a degree to get you there, I would say putting uni off is not a bad idea at all.
Oh I would agree with that for anyone. You should be going to uni FOR a reason, not because you don't know what else to do with your life and are scared of getting a job.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Apart from it isn't "real" debt. It gets written off after so many years, you only have to pay it back if you earn over a certain amount, the interest rate is peanuts and it doesn't count towards anything other than an outgoing (if you earn over the amount) when you are applying for a loan or mortgage.
Apart from it isn't "real" debt. It gets written off after so many years, you only have to pay it back if you earn over a certain amount, the interest rate is peanuts and it doesn't count towards anything other than an outgoing (if you earn over the amount) when you are applying for a loan or mortgage.
In reply to The New NickB:
What, "find an uneducated shopgirl who is in a hurry to have children, and marry her and fund her through higher education"?
> I wonder if she will be giving the same advice to them.
What, "find an uneducated shopgirl who is in a hurry to have children, and marry her and fund her through higher education"?
In reply to Blue Straggler:
Whilst men can't give birth, there is nothing stopping them staying home looking after the children, whilst Mum goes to work.
I know a few families where, Mum is in a demanding and well paid job and Dad is in a less well paid, less demanding part time job and does most of the looking after of the children.
So perhaps Allsop's kids can work in a shop, meet a nice girl with good prospects and look after the children then get an OU degree later.
Whilst men can't give birth, there is nothing stopping them staying home looking after the children, whilst Mum goes to work.
I know a few families where, Mum is in a demanding and well paid job and Dad is in a less well paid, less demanding part time job and does most of the looking after of the children.
So perhaps Allsop's kids can work in a shop, meet a nice girl with good prospects and look after the children then get an OU degree later.
In reply to Carolyn:
I think this alleged evidence of women who can't get pregnant past 35 is all anectdotal and overdone. There are many new studies refuting this. I got pregnant at 40 within two months and most of my friend had kids in their 35 plus age range and apart from one or two who took a little more than half a year there is nothing to report.
as for Kirstie Allsopp, she certainly is no feminist and to promote the statement that women shouldn't go to University is more than retro and anti-emancipatory in my opinion. Everyone, no matter what gender, race, religion, etc has the right to a proper education, everything else is reactionary and does not sit easily with feminist or any other equal rights orientated ideas.
I think this alleged evidence of women who can't get pregnant past 35 is all anectdotal and overdone. There are many new studies refuting this. I got pregnant at 40 within two months and most of my friend had kids in their 35 plus age range and apart from one or two who took a little more than half a year there is nothing to report.
as for Kirstie Allsopp, she certainly is no feminist and to promote the statement that women shouldn't go to University is more than retro and anti-emancipatory in my opinion. Everyone, no matter what gender, race, religion, etc has the right to a proper education, everything else is reactionary and does not sit easily with feminist or any other equal rights orientated ideas.
In reply to Tall Clare:
Heh - I quite enjoyed this comment about it:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/03/kirsty-allsopp-advice-n...
Heh - I quite enjoyed this comment about it:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/03/kirsty-allsopp-advice-n...
In reply to The New NickB:
Apart from the law about parental leave, which might mean that it's more affordable for the mum to leave her job on maternity leave...
> Whilst men can't give birth, there is nothing stopping them staying home looking after the children, whilst Mum goes to work.
Apart from the law about parental leave, which might mean that it's more affordable for the mum to leave her job on maternity leave...
In reply to tlm:
Not much of a consideration in the type examples Allsopp is talking about, but unlike Kirstie, I am quite prepared to accept that every bodies circumstances are different.
> Apart from the law about parental leave, which might mean that it's more affordable for the mum to leave her job on maternity leave...
Not much of a consideration in the type examples Allsopp is talking about, but unlike Kirstie, I am quite prepared to accept that every bodies circumstances are different.
In reply to tlm:
That's how I read it - albeit coming from a position of priviledge and assumptive in the extreme. While it's a fair choice either way, I don't think its a choice that is fairly balanced given background societal expectations that are individualistic, higher education orientated (now with significant fees), and incorporating prevalent desires for earning potential that come with career progression and facilitate things like home ownership etc. I mean, seriously, how many people truly consider having children when they are younger these days? Its anathema because of our cultural biases, and because we've so far from the kind of more dependent culture that might help to afford it (by which I mean for example living close to family). It may be oft repeated in media the problems of declining fertility with age, the increased chances of all sorts of complications, etc, but how many of us really absorb the information and make a decision in awareness of all the facts?
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
>
> On reading the headline I recoiled. But on further reading I thought it was one of those things where they had simplified what she had said.
>
> I think she was trying to say that everyone shouldn't feel pushed into following a single route if it wasn't right for them, and that we should be more flexible about when people go to university, rather than meaning it is right for all women.
>
> On reading the headline I recoiled. But on further reading I thought it was one of those things where they had simplified what she had said.
>
> I think she was trying to say that everyone shouldn't feel pushed into following a single route if it wasn't right for them, and that we should be more flexible about when people go to university, rather than meaning it is right for all women.
That's how I read it - albeit coming from a position of priviledge and assumptive in the extreme. While it's a fair choice either way, I don't think its a choice that is fairly balanced given background societal expectations that are individualistic, higher education orientated (now with significant fees), and incorporating prevalent desires for earning potential that come with career progression and facilitate things like home ownership etc. I mean, seriously, how many people truly consider having children when they are younger these days? Its anathema because of our cultural biases, and because we've so far from the kind of more dependent culture that might help to afford it (by which I mean for example living close to family). It may be oft repeated in media the problems of declining fertility with age, the increased chances of all sorts of complications, etc, but how many of us really absorb the information and make a decision in awareness of all the facts?
In reply to Scarab9:
Yes, but that's the point. It isn't really a choice. I mean, of course, you *can* get pregnant when you're younger, but how many would feel enabled, supported and facilitated to actually do so at such a younger age? The reality is that women (and men) are expected more than ever to get a degree, to develop a career, to earn, and not to be dependent etc In what way is it a balanced choice that can be made?
> I think it's very good that there's less of the "everyone needs to go to uni because it's the only way you'll ever get a job and you'll leave rich and happy and the world is your oyster" bullshit that was all you heard up until a few years ago, but isnt' the point to try and offer choices and different routes, not push another on people?
Yes, but that's the point. It isn't really a choice. I mean, of course, you *can* get pregnant when you're younger, but how many would feel enabled, supported and facilitated to actually do so at such a younger age? The reality is that women (and men) are expected more than ever to get a degree, to develop a career, to earn, and not to be dependent etc In what way is it a balanced choice that can be made?
In reply to David Martin:
I'd say the flipside of your caricature is that it is a reflection of a post-thatcherite indivualistic culture that defeminises women by reducing their actual available choices under the pretence of empowering them (............to be pawns in the economic machine).
> Pretty offensive, old fashioned and one sided in my opinion.
I'd say the flipside of your caricature is that it is a reflection of a post-thatcherite indivualistic culture that defeminises women by reducing their actual available choices under the pretence of empowering them (............to be pawns in the economic machine).
In reply to contrariousjim:
Actually, the average age for women in the UK to have their first child is 28, which means that plenty of women are having children younger. Don't forget that less than 50% of women actually go to university at all.
> I mean, seriously, how many people truly consider having children when they are younger these days?
Actually, the average age for women in the UK to have their first child is 28, which means that plenty of women are having children younger. Don't forget that less than 50% of women actually go to university at all.
In reply to Tall Clare:
And what makes the other approach so hard?
Well, f3cking dumb b1tches like Kirstie Allsopp preaching the great house price religion for a start.
Idiots like her cause a great part of the UK's housing problem which in turn causes many of our economic problems. Houses are for keeping the rain off.
And what makes the other approach so hard?
Well, f3cking dumb b1tches like Kirstie Allsopp preaching the great house price religion for a start.
Idiots like her cause a great part of the UK's housing problem which in turn causes many of our economic problems. Houses are for keeping the rain off.
In reply to tlm:
Avg being the point. That includes for example the teenage (15-17yo) pregnancy rate of between 2.5-3% of conceptions (reducing though that figure is). Look at the relative changes:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47364000/gif/_47364706_conception466x...
> Actually, the average age for women in the UK to have their first child is 28, which means that plenty of women are having children younger. Don't forget that less than 50% of women actually go to university at all.
Avg being the point. That includes for example the teenage (15-17yo) pregnancy rate of between 2.5-3% of conceptions (reducing though that figure is). Look at the relative changes:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47364000/gif/_47364706_conception466x...
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I totally agree this is much more the point, but I'd lay much more blame at the feet of our political leaders over the last few decades!
> And what makes the other approach so hard?
> Well, f3cking dumb b1tches like Kirstie Allsopp preaching the great house price religion for a start.
> Idiots like her cause a great part of the UK's housing problem which in turn causes many of our economic problems. Houses are for keeping the rain off.
I totally agree this is much more the point, but I'd lay much more blame at the feet of our political leaders over the last few decades!
In reply to contrariousjim:
I know, I know....
But Kirsty must be happy about all those 15-17 year olds, mustn't she? ;-0
> Avg being the point. That includes for example the teenage (15-17yo) pregnancy rate of between 2.5-3% of conceptions (reducing though that figure is). Look at the relative changes:
I know, I know....
But Kirsty must be happy about all those 15-17 year olds, mustn't she? ;-0
In reply to Tall Clare:
Did you know Kirsty Allsopp didn't go to University, and (apparently) mentions the value of getting on and working while young rather a lot?
It can put a different slant on her comments, I just found out today.
Did you know Kirsty Allsopp didn't go to University, and (apparently) mentions the value of getting on and working while young rather a lot?
It can put a different slant on her comments, I just found out today.
Post edited at 00:33
In reply to Tall Clare:
My mother and father both worked full time whilst they raised me, and it obviously isn't impossible to do. Im also an only child, and I never felt like my development was scuppered because my mum worked full time! She had me when she was 26 for example, and having just graduated at the age of 24 I intend to work full time for the next few years, travel, climb and experience life without children until Im ready to have them, but I don't intend to quit work just to change nappies all day. There such things as nurseries and before and after school care. We can have it all women! it's the goddam 21st century!
My mother and father both worked full time whilst they raised me, and it obviously isn't impossible to do. Im also an only child, and I never felt like my development was scuppered because my mum worked full time! She had me when she was 26 for example, and having just graduated at the age of 24 I intend to work full time for the next few years, travel, climb and experience life without children until Im ready to have them, but I don't intend to quit work just to change nappies all day. There such things as nurseries and before and after school care. We can have it all women! it's the goddam 21st century!
In reply to emmathefish:
There's more to bringing up children than changing nappies. You demean a very important role in society.
There's more to bringing up children than changing nappies. You demean a very important role in society.
In reply to emmathefish:
You need to update your UKC profile, petal
> having just graduated at the age of 24
You need to update your UKC profile, petal
In reply to Heike:
There is a point there. The stats regarding female fertility and said-drop-off past 35-40 are based on incredibly dodgy data. If I recall correctly, specifically 18th century data from french churchyards where they wandered around and worked out how many kids each woman had and at what age, and then translated this into a fertility study.
I'm not saying there isn't a decline, but, my mum was 40+ when I was born and her mum was 40+ when she was born. And this was in the 1930's.
> I think this alleged evidence of women who can't get pregnant past 35 is all anectdotal and overdone. There are many new studies refuting this. I got pregnant at 40 within two months and most of my friend had kids in their 35 plus age range and apart from one or two who took a little more than half a year there is nothing to report.
There is a point there. The stats regarding female fertility and said-drop-off past 35-40 are based on incredibly dodgy data. If I recall correctly, specifically 18th century data from french churchyards where they wandered around and worked out how many kids each woman had and at what age, and then translated this into a fertility study.
I'm not saying there isn't a decline, but, my mum was 40+ when I was born and her mum was 40+ when she was born. And this was in the 1930's.
In reply to emmathefish:
Aye! Brave new world! Celebrate the equality by all means, but how are you so secure about your position to celebrate having it all by virtue of institutionalised child care?
> My mother and father both worked full time whilst they raised me, and it obviously isn't impossible to do. Im also an only child, and I never felt like my development was scuppered because my mum worked full time! She had me when she was 26 for example, and having just graduated at the age of 24 I intend to work full time for the next few years, travel, climb and experience life without children until Im ready to have them, but I don't intend to quit work just to change nappies all day. There such things as nurseries and before and after school care. We can have it all women! it's the goddam 21st century!
Aye! Brave new world! Celebrate the equality by all means, but how are you so secure about your position to celebrate having it all by virtue of institutionalised child care?
In reply to emmathefish:
Why not find a dad to be who does want to or.. ..shock horror.. ..share the responsibility?!!
> don't wanna be a stay at home mum though
Why not find a dad to be who does want to or.. ..shock horror.. ..share the responsibility?!!
In reply to John_Hat:
After pregnancy the commonest GP presentation in women of child bearing age is infertility affecting about 1/7 couples. In the US 15-44 yo have an infertility rate of 6%, which increases to 27% in those aged 35-44. That refers to infertility and not merely impaired fecundity. Supporting those figures are the impression that IVF success gives us about fertility. 35-37yo have successful IVF rate of 25%, whereas it drops to 11% in those aged 40-42. All this will sit on skewed distributions and do not represent cliffs, but for each and every woman there is a personal cliff that is the menopause. 1/100 will have reached the menopause at 40, 1/1000 at age 30, the avg age of menopause being around 52. Anecdotes are all very well, but don't forget the selection effects involved: people who conceive generally want to communicate it, and eventually have no option about communicating it, and are happy about it. Those who have trouble conceiving do not generally want to be public about the fact.
> There is a point there. The stats regarding female fertility and said-drop-off past 35-40 are based on incredibly dodgy data. If I recall correctly, specifically 18th century data from french churchyards where they wandered around and worked out how many kids each woman had and at what age, and then translated this into a fertility study.
After pregnancy the commonest GP presentation in women of child bearing age is infertility affecting about 1/7 couples. In the US 15-44 yo have an infertility rate of 6%, which increases to 27% in those aged 35-44. That refers to infertility and not merely impaired fecundity. Supporting those figures are the impression that IVF success gives us about fertility. 35-37yo have successful IVF rate of 25%, whereas it drops to 11% in those aged 40-42. All this will sit on skewed distributions and do not represent cliffs, but for each and every woman there is a personal cliff that is the menopause. 1/100 will have reached the menopause at 40, 1/1000 at age 30, the avg age of menopause being around 52. Anecdotes are all very well, but don't forget the selection effects involved: people who conceive generally want to communicate it, and eventually have no option about communicating it, and are happy about it. Those who have trouble conceiving do not generally want to be public about the fact.
In reply to emmathefish:
I must say as well that as I get older, I am more and more happy not to have had kids. Maybe I'll reach an age and be old and lonely and regret it all, and no doubt, if I had have had kids, I would think they were the best thing since sliced bread, but I don't see having kids as the one and only way of having a fulfilling life.
I like the fact that I have time for all the other relationships in my life, that I don't constantly have to tell other people how to live their lives (have you brushed you teeth? Where is your coat? Stop doing that!) that my life can be more spontaneous, that I have time to learn things, that I don't have to go to mass kid events, that at the wall I am the one climbing, rather than the one sitting their waiting to pick up my kid after their climbing party.
I think the joys of not having kids is something that I tend to keep quiet about as people will see it as a criticism of their choice to have kids (I have no problem with other people wanting to have kids!) or will think it is about very shallow values. However, I also do have kids in my life - other people's kids! I know they aren't the same as your own kids, but I love my niece and nephew, and also friends kids.
Having kids does change your life, in many, many ways. If I were to have kids, they would be the number one priority and my own wants and needs would have to take a back seat. So having kids isn't for everyone and not every woman feels incomplete if she doesn't have them.
I must say as well that as I get older, I am more and more happy not to have had kids. Maybe I'll reach an age and be old and lonely and regret it all, and no doubt, if I had have had kids, I would think they were the best thing since sliced bread, but I don't see having kids as the one and only way of having a fulfilling life.
I like the fact that I have time for all the other relationships in my life, that I don't constantly have to tell other people how to live their lives (have you brushed you teeth? Where is your coat? Stop doing that!) that my life can be more spontaneous, that I have time to learn things, that I don't have to go to mass kid events, that at the wall I am the one climbing, rather than the one sitting their waiting to pick up my kid after their climbing party.
I think the joys of not having kids is something that I tend to keep quiet about as people will see it as a criticism of their choice to have kids (I have no problem with other people wanting to have kids!) or will think it is about very shallow values. However, I also do have kids in my life - other people's kids! I know they aren't the same as your own kids, but I love my niece and nephew, and also friends kids.
Having kids does change your life, in many, many ways. If I were to have kids, they would be the number one priority and my own wants and needs would have to take a back seat. So having kids isn't for everyone and not every woman feels incomplete if she doesn't have them.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
There's a tampon ad that shows a woman frittering time away on UKC?!!
> I think theres a tampon ad that depicts your life quite nicely
There's a tampon ad that shows a woman frittering time away on UKC?!!
In reply to tlm:
They're not. They are fab but not worth losing yourself in.
Yep.
I see far too many people make that mistake and lose themselves in parenthood. I was talking to my stepbrother the other day and he was telling me about how he and 'some of the other dads'. Some of the other dads? Sod that, I'm not an appendage for my kids, sure, a large part of my life is spent explaining homework to them and taxying them around, but kids don't define me as a person, and I think it's all too easy to fall in to the trap of parenthood and let the kids steer your life.
> ...but I don't see having kids as the one and only way of having a fulfilling life.
They're not. They are fab but not worth losing yourself in.
> I like the fact that I have time for all the other relationships in my life, that I don't constantly have to tell other people how to live their lives (have you brushed you teeth? Where is your coat? Stop doing that!) that my life can be more spontaneous, that I have time to learn things, that I don't have to go to mass kid events, that at the wall I am the one climbing, rather than the one sitting their waiting to pick up my kid after their climbing party.
Yep.
> I think the joys of not having kids is something that I tend to keep quiet about as people will see it as a criticism of their choice to have kids (I have no problem with other people wanting to have kids!) or will think it is about very shallow values. However, I also do have kids in my life - other people's kids! I know they aren't the same as your own kids, but I love my niece and nephew, and also friends kids.
> Having kids does change your life, in many, many ways. If I were to have kids, they would be the number one priority and my own wants and needs would have to take a back seat. So having kids isn't for everyone and not every woman feels incomplete if she doesn't have them.
I see far too many people make that mistake and lose themselves in parenthood. I was talking to my stepbrother the other day and he was telling me about how he and 'some of the other dads'. Some of the other dads? Sod that, I'm not an appendage for my kids, sure, a large part of my life is spent explaining homework to them and taxying them around, but kids don't define me as a person, and I think it's all too easy to fall in to the trap of parenthood and let the kids steer your life.
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