UKC

Abseiling Advice!!!!

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 Joel Perkin 11 Jun 2014
I'm very new to climbing and was wondering if you kind boys and girls could give me some sound advice. What's harder abseiling right or left handed? Any advice would be appreciated
bust3r 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

walking down is the preferred option majority of the time.
In reply to Joel Perkin:

If you're right-handed, you'll want to hold the 'dead' rope below the descendeur with your right hand as the controlling hand, and your left hand will lightly hold the ropes in front of you. And vice versa.
In reply to Joel Perkin:

PS, but it actually makes extremely little difference.
 jimtitt 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

With a plate or an 8 both hands below the device. Traditional abseiling whichever you have more control so for most people right handed. With a Grigri most people use the left hand on the lever and the right on the rope, it´s designed for right handed people.
 dagibbs 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

Um... whichever is harder for you? I usually abseil with an ATC, and mostly run the rope down over my right hip. But sometimes I run it down between my legs, and sometimes down over my left hip. It depends on what is more convenient for starting, and which had I may want free for pushing/maneuvering my body around an edge/overhang/tree/obstruction. Or for grabbing draw/gear on the way down. And, whether the ab is straight down, or whether it drifts right or left.

Certain devices, e.g. a Grigri, may have a handedness -- though they may not be a common abseil device.
 Jonny2vests 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

> What's harder abseiling right or left handed? Any advice would be appreciated

Neither is harder. Both hands should go below unless you use a device that has a release like a grigri.
 Jonny2vests 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> ...and your left hand will lightly hold the ropes in front of you. And vice versa.

That's kind of old hat Gordon.
 Bulls Crack 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

> I'm very new to climbing and was wondering if you kind boys and girls could give me some sound advice. What's harder abseiling right or left handed? Any advice would be appreciated

It depends if you're right or left-handed?!
 Michael Gordon 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> If you're right-handed, you'll want to hold the 'dead' rope below the descendeur with your right hand as the controlling hand, and your left hand will lightly hold the ropes in front of you. And vice versa.

+1. No need whatsoever to have both hands on the rope below you.

The only (useless) thing I would add is that if you are right handed, abseiling lefthanded would be harder (and indeed rather pointless, unless you had injured the other hand), and vice versa.
 Billhook 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

It hardly matters what we tell you. It depends on what you find easiest - so just practice!
 Denni 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

I would say neither but I would say what method you use makes it easier.

I used to abseil with a prusik/crab on my harness leg strap but then found it so much better extending it by using a quickdraw from my belay loop:

http://www.mountaineering.ie/_files/041.jpg
 The Lemming 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

If you are right handed, this it is harder to ab with your left hand. And if you are left handed then it is harder to ab with your right hand.

Personally, I would do everything in my power NOT to ab if I can help it. I see abseiling as a last resort option.
 Tony the Blade 11 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

tbh if you have to ask this question then you're probably in need of being shown how to abseil.

Join a club or ask a climbing buddy to show you.

good luck, ttb
needvert 12 Jun 2014
In reply to The Lemming:
I offer the opposing advice, abseiling is an enjoyable outdoor (or underground) activity that is often worth doing just for the sake of it. It is only marred by the fact that for every descent, energy had to go into an ascent.
Post edited at 05:59
 alasdair19 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

get someone to show u how to use a prussik. I generally have rope between my legs rather than on one side. classic mistake is to have one hand above belay device and one below. Both hands below is best. An "upper" hand is useless.
 GrahamD 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

My advice ? if you feel uncertain, Tie a rope to a tree branch and practice abseiling from step ladder height. Experiment with what works best for you.
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Sometimes, of course, one might be abseiling for a purpose other than merely descending, eg. to remove a piece of gear that's got stuck, in which case one'll abseil with the left hand so that the right hand is free to tackle the problem.
Removed User 12 Jun 2014
In reply to dagibbs:
> Certain devices, e.g. a Grigri, may have a handedness -- though they may not be a common abseil device.

While you can abseil with it you can obviously only do 1 strand at a time. I use a grigri for belaying but very quickly ended up getting an atc for abbing.

For the OP I use right hand below the atc and left hand above it, rope over the right hip and body turned slightly to the right to facilitate the rope running in a straight line. I'm right handed.

edit: spleling
Post edited at 10:45
 alasdair19 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Removed User:

why left hand above device?
Removed User 12 Jun 2014
In reply to alasdair19:

I'm not sure. I just find I can move more controlled that way, basically I just let the rope run through both hands and the atc.

I did see someone doing it a slightly different way where they had their atc on a quickdraw which was in turn attached to the belay loop so it was further away from their body, she did have both hands below the device and it looked pretty smooth/controlled.
 dagibbs 12 Jun 2014
In reply to alasdair19:

Some people use a friction knot above the device, and then manage that knot with a hand above the belay device. I've also seen people use a hand above for balance -- to help keep themselves comfortably upright.

I prefer both hands below for solid control of the rope, and if I use a friction knot backup, to have that below the device as well, so the friction knot also enjoys the friction-advantage of the belay device.
In reply to dagibbs:

I'm a bit baffled by this business of both hands below the device. Don't people swing about a bit any longer when making an abseil, to ensure they follow the best line? - and to do that, you need one hand on the weighted ropes. It also lets you lean right out if you have to.
In reply to dagibbs:

Further note. Also, on a serious abseil, e.g in the alps, where there's a real risk of dislodging loose blocks, it's not just a matter of swinging about, you often have to pull backwards very hard with that left hand to move the rope into a better position. And sometimes you rest on small holds and then flick the rope very hard with the left hand into the new position, always controlling the braking and movement with the right hand. People here seem to be talking as if they haven't done very much serious abseiling.
 BrendanO 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Denni:



> I used to abseil with a prusik/crab on my harness leg strap but then found it so much better extending it by using a quickdraw from my belay loop:


+1 to that ...recently switched after years of finding Prussia sometimes a bit awkward. This system feels more secure, always works nicely!
In reply to Removed User:

Further note 2. In all my 40 years of climbing from 1967-2007, I never saw anyone using any kind of backup system while abseiling. None of my friends, nor any of the much better climbers (some of them quite big names) that I was privileged to climb with, did. I never heard of any abseiling accidents either, except a few tragic cases where the anchor had failed.
In reply to BrendanO:

Prussia was historically awkward, indeed.
 AlanLittle 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> PS, but it actually makes extremely little difference.

Indeed. I am right handed, and normally belay right handed (if the stance/route allow, in the case of multipitch) but have always abbed left handed, for no particular reason that I can remember.
Removed User 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Can't say I have ever used a backup while abseiling or known anyone that ever does. I figured the 'use a prussik or yer gunna die' messages were just an internet safety kind of thing. People feel obligated to say it to cover themselves but no one really bothers.

Sort of like the 'never use the grigri without a backup knot if you're going hands free' thing.
 JamButty 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

As others have said, depends if you're a lefty or righty.
I'm a lefty so the rope passes down the LHS of my body and I predominantly hold with my left hand.
I can do it right handed but it feels weird.

Also as others have said, much more dangerous than ascending, avoid it if you can, but be experienced enough to use it confidently!
 Jonny2vests 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> +1. No need whatsoever to have both hands on the rope below you.

...but it is considered best practice, if you have a spare hand, why not put it to good use?
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Just when do you have a spare hand if you're abseiling properly, concentrating on your line of descent etc.? And why does any modern device like an ATC need two hands, FFS? UKC discussions get ever more baffling across the board, incidentally. It seems like there's almost a new hobby afoot of airing ignorance.
 alasdair19 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Removed User:

I thought that too. abbing of the nose in yosemite, new ropes. struggled to stop and needed to painfully wrap it round my leg for extra friction.
In reply to alasdair19:

But: don't most present-day climbers know that a) something like an ATC is NOT adequate for doing very long abseils off something like El Cap, b) you must always be ready (i.e. not surprised) to occasionally have to run the rope round your leg for extra friction? And indeed brake completely like that, if necessary, in an emergency to leave both your hands free?

Utterly baffling. Or are most people here just armchair climbers who talk theoretically about how they think things might/should/must work out on the crag?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

This theoretical approach is all very well, Gordon, but in practice you can't deny the Brown-Whillans paradigm, which makes abseiling down anything up to E4 naturally left handed, and E6 and above right handed. E5 is anticlinal, in that progress is downhill on both sides.

Ivory towers indeed

Martin

(E2 rappel onsight; E3 by pre-inspection)
 dagibbs 12 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Just when do you have a spare hand if you're abseiling properly, concentrating on your line of descent etc.? And why does any modern device like an ATC need two hands, FFS? UKC discussions get ever more baffling across the board, incidentally. It seems like there's almost a new hobby afoot of airing ignorance.

How do you not have a spare hand while descending, what is the other one doing?

> Further note. Also, on a serious abseil, e.g in the alps, where there's a real risk of dislodging loose blocks, it's not just a matter of swinging about, you often have to pull backwards very hard with that left hand to move the rope into a better position. And sometimes you rest on small holds and then flick the rope very hard with the left hand into the new position, always controlling the braking and movement with the right hand. People here seem to be talking as if they haven't done very much serious abseiling.

Sure, as mentioned else where I may need to move the rope around -- but I'll generally do that while stopped, not while actively descending.

Do I need two hands? Again, it depends. If you're lowering someone with an ATC or similar device, I've always been taught it is proper use to have both hands on the brake-strand, and move the rope between the hands. Abbing is essentially the same thing -- but rather than lowering someone else, you're lowering yourself.

I don't have 40 years doing this, only about 10. I've seen people abseil with and without back-up knots. I've done it both ways. If I think an ab is going to get messy -- route-finding, clearing tangles or other stuff like that -- I'll use a friction knot. Makes it easy and quick to go hands-free when/if I need to. If it is going to be simple -- I can see a straight rope to the ground, I'm second or later person to do the abseil, etc -- I'll generally not bother with a friction knot.

Whether I want one or two hands below while moving will depend on things like thickness of rope, amount/weight of rope hanging below me, steepness of the descent, etc.

And, yes, I've done some serious abseiling.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Believe it or not, I heard a rumour that some people arent interested in abseiling el cap! Wow! I know! I couldn't believe it either!

But assuming for a second this IS true, I suppose one could concede the point that what is suitable for el Cap might be irrelevant to, say, abbing one clean pitch into a sea cliff route?
 Howard J 12 Jun 2014
In reply to dagibbs:

> I've always been taught it is proper use to have both hands on the brake-strand, and move the rope between the hands.

Isn't this rather like the way novice drivers are taught to pass the steering wheel through the hands?

I suspect the main reason this is taught is to make sure the student gets to understand that it is the hand below the device which does the work. If they have both hands below the device they can't try to use the wrong hand to control the braking or lowering. However with more experience you can choose the method which best suits you.

I usually find a single hand is fine to control an ab. Sometimes, on a free ab or with a heavy load, I'll use two. However usually I find having two hands below the device feels awkward and that I actually feel I have less control than using one hand and holding on to the upper rope for balance with the other .

The safety prusik seems to be a fairly recent introduction but I can see no good reason not to use it. It takes only seconds to put on and off.
 marsbar 12 Jun 2014
In reply to The Lemming:

My most amazing climbing experience was abseiling in and climbing out of a sea cliff. I wouldn't have missed that for anything.
In reply to Ffion Blethyn:

... It takes all types I suppose. Apparently its equivalent to Mt. Everest?

Who knew.
 Ffion Blethyn 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

It's a funny old world eh?
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

> Believe it or not, I heard a rumour that some people arent interested in abseiling el cap! Wow! I know! I couldn't believe it either!

> But assuming for a second this IS true, I suppose one could concede the point that what is suitable for el Cap might be irrelevant to, say, abbing one clean pitch into a sea cliff route?

Yup. That's what I meant.
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Just when do you have a spare hand if you're abseiling properly,

If you put a hand above the device, that hand is doing precisely nothing apart from giving you some misguided notion of stability and attachment. Therefore it is spare. Why not put it below and put it to good use? That is my point.

> And why does any modern device like an ATC need two hands, FFS?

Because anybody sane will put the french prussik (if they are using one) BELOW the plate. Therefore to be in full control, you can't really manage the prussik and brake with the same hand since they are doing two very different tasks, ergo two hands below is normal.

> UKC discussions get ever more baffling across the board, incidentally. It seems like there's almost a new hobby afoot of airing ignorance.

Keep your knickers on Gordon, there's really no need for all the FFS stuff.
needvert 13 Jun 2014
In reply to BrendanO:

> +1 to that ...recently switched after years of finding Prussia sometimes a bit awkward. This system feels more secure, always works nicely!

I recall an accident report, an experienced climber was rapping down a climb, using method one. He was found dead at the bottom. One sequence of events put forward was that he had stopped some way down, hands free, and rotated his body to (in the diagram) the left, leading to the prussik hitting the ATC and the subsequent fall.

I like number 2, I think it's safer. But its a pretty slow option.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Yup. That's what I meant.

Oh. You have a strange way of explaining it.

Seems to me that advice to use an autoblock or prussic and two hands below the device is good advice for OP who is "very new to climbing" and should therefore be taught the safest, most un-mess-up-able way to abseil. So I don't really understand why yo have a problem with it.

For myself, I use a klemheist with the device extended on a sling if I think there might be reason to stop on the descent. It is worth trying abseiling using either hand in case you get jammed up in an awkward chimney.

I stopped liking abseils after my first night time winter retreat.
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> But: don't most present-day climbers know that a) something like an ATC is NOT adequate for doing very long abseils off something like El Cap, b) you must always be ready (i.e. not surprised) to occasionally have to run the rope round your leg for extra friction? And indeed brake completely like that, if necessary, in an emergency to leave both your hands free?

> Utterly baffling. Or are most people here just armchair climbers who talk theoretically about how they think things might/should/must work out on the crag?

Actually, an ATC type device is perfectly fine and normal for big abseils. And armchairs smarmchairs, I'm knee deep in big walls around here, so I reckon I probably do a bit more big abbing than most on here.



In reply to Howard J:

> I suspect the main reason this is taught is to make sure the student gets to understand that it is the hand below the device which does the work. If they have both hands below the device they can't try to use the wrong hand to control the braking or lowering. However with more experience you can choose the method which best suits you.

As OP is "very new to climbing" wouldn't you think suggesting the use of both hands below the device is appropriate?
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

> As OP is "very new to climbing" wouldn't you think suggesting the use of both hands below the device is appropriate?

Exactly. The mind boggles.
needvert 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

There's an unfounded assertion that two hands are inherently significantly safer than one, I make no statement either way - other than that human intuition can be hilariously wrong at times.

I switch between doing all kinds of things, but on long abseils I tend to have one hand above and below the device. It feels more stable and comfortable than awkwardly reaching across my body to the brake stand with the left hand, and lets me lay the path of the loaded rope a bit more easily.

Being a conservative individual, I have a reasonably thick rope, and a grippy device (ATC-G). On an abseil I might use two hands, though at some point on the way down, I'll take one hand off to do something - it might be unclip my safety, scratch my nose, tighten a pack strap, then I put my hand back on. Depending on the activity I might use my left or right hand. Many times, I've kept in my mind that if I f*ck this up, if I let go with one hand before grabbing hold with the other hand, I'll hit the deck. I wonder how likely that is

So, if someone told me that there was a cardinal rule, to pick one hand and use it and never let go (barring bad situations like not enough friction or a heavy load - exactly what you shouldn't be putting a beginner on) exclusively, in an abseil, I could conceive that it could be safer than my two hands with one hand moving on and off depending what's going on.

Of course, if I pick the prussik method above I find it easiest to have two hands on brake strand. The left hand isn't there to provide braking, just to release the prussik.

I disagree with the initial statement that sparked this, that using only one hand was a classic mistake, as I don't see what is either classic or a mistake about it.

(Keep in mind I'm not saying don't ever use two hands below the device, do what the situation dictates. It may require two hands, it may require wrapping the rope around your leg, it may require who knows what.)


As to the OPs question, go with GrahamD's suggestion of finding a tree, perferably with a comfortable landing.
needvert 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Minor point, but you've (perhaps accidentally) engaged in a strawman argument.

An ATC is a very specific device, being this: http://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en/climbing-belay-rappel/atc-belay-rapp...

An ATC type device, is an entire family, including those with friction groves.

Given alasdair states they struggled to stop, it would seem to me that a different choice of abseil device, ropes or setup, is warranted.
(I imagine it would have been a heart rate rising thing to find yourself struggling to stop while abseiling on El Cap!

On the topic of abseiling down El Cap, this is a rather entertaining thread about two guys who tried: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1886785&tn=0&...
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to needvert:

> There's an unfounded assertion that two hands are inherently significantly safer than one, I make no statement either way - other than that human intuition can be hilariously wrong at times.

Would you say the same about having only one hand on a steering wheel? Have you read the literature that proves it's more dangerous or are you happy to go with common sense and people's advice?

> I switch between doing all kinds of things, but on long abseils I tend to have one hand above and below the device. It feels more stable and comfortable than awkwardly reaching across my body to the brake stand with the left hand, and lets me lay the path of the loaded rope a bit more easily.

You are doing it wrong

> Being a conservative individual, I have a reasonably thick rope, and a grippy device (ATC-G). On an abseil I might use two hands, though at some point on the way down, I'll take one hand off to do something - it might be unclip my safety, scratch my nose, tighten a pack strap, then I put my hand back on. Depending on the activity I might use my left or right hand. Many times, I've kept in my mind that if I f*ck this up, if I let go with one hand before grabbing hold with the other hand, I'll hit the deck. I wonder how likely that is

> So, if someone told me that there was a cardinal rule, to pick one hand and use it and never let go (barring bad situations like not enough friction or a heavy load - exactly what you shouldn't be putting a beginner on) exclusively, in an abseil, I could conceive that it could be safer than my two hands with one hand moving on and off depending what's going on.

> Of course, if I pick the prussik method above I find it easiest to have two hands on brake strand. The left hand isn't there to provide braking, just to release the prussik.

Amen



needvert 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:
I'm happy to go with common sense and people's advice. In this instance however, whose advice should I follow?


Open up the 8th edition of Mountaineering The Freedom of the Hills, Fig 11-1, 11-16, 11-18a,b,c, Fig 11-21 all clearly demonstrate one hand below the device, and one above.

Open up Petzl 2014 Verticality - Lighting catalogue, under the instructional section on Rappeling quickly on a ridge climb - page 21, one hand below device, one hand above. (Admittedly a weaker reference, though Petzl has a very good reputation).

Open up The Complete Rock Climber by Malcolm Creasey et al, page 145 clearly demonstrates one hand above and one hand below, labelled "Upper hand guiding the rope" and "Lowerhand maintaining friction...".

But, you know, on the scale of things climbers don't do the most abseiling, that may go to sport abseilers or canyoners. I don't have any books on that but I do have two good references on caving handy.

Open up Alpine Caving Techniques by Marbach and Tourte, page 139 3.3 "You can control your speed by holding the rope with both hands or with just one..., according to your preference. When the left hand is free, use it to hold the descender to help balance yourself on the rope...On rapid rappels, control your speed with the right hand only, the arm extended downward..."

Open up On Rope: North American Vertical Rope Techniques by Smith and Padgett, National Speleological Society, Figures 5-20, 5-51, 5-52b, 5-52c, 5-53a,b,c,d and the large photo on page 97 all demonstrate one brake hand, and one hand either on the device or above the device. Page 106, refering to Fig 5-20 has this to say: "Brake hand: The hand that provides the braking action...usual position is at the hip...Control Hand. The hand that...<<>>. On other devices, this hand is often the balance hand held above the rappel device"


You get my point, though I have more books I could dig up
Post edited at 08:59
 GrahamD 13 Jun 2014
In reply to needvert:

> I'm happy to go with common sense and people's advice. In this instance however, whose advice should I follow?

You should use your own judgement, just as in all other branches of climbing.
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Just a few things I'd like to say quickly about abseiling (based on 48 years experience) before getting back to work:

Of course, in an ideal world you will use some kind of back-up system. But you also need to know how to cope with emergency situations where that may not be possible.

Of course you will have both hands below the device when using something like an ATC on an overhanging, free space abseil. You may also have to wrap the rope beneath you round one leg as well. An ATC is not really recommendable for this kind of abseil for this reason.

Abseiling is also an important technique for retreating in an emergency (bad weather, injury etc.) On a typical multipitch trad or alpine route where the ground is less than vertical/broken/with rock steps etc, you will HAVE to have one hand on the ropes above you, for reasons I gave in an earlier post. Particularly if the line of descent is diagonal (often the case) - as the ropes will often have to be rearranged as you descend. There is always two serious questions: the rope running over sharp edges - so you will often have to bounce or flick the ropes above you a few inches/feet to left or right to make a more suitable line. 2. The risk of the knot becoming jammed in a crack when you come to retrieve the rope. This is one of the most serious things that can go wrong in the whole of climbing, and quite a few fatalities have happened as a result. Really all this is 'page one' stuff that everyone should be taught.

And of course the second person never comes down the ropes until the first person has checked that the ropes are going to pull through OK, knot isn't going to jam.

Beyond all that, everyone should know what to do in a number of emergency situations: i.e no abseil device, no harness, no gear. In case anyone thinks this is far-fetched: remember, sacks can be dropped, and gravity is always cruel. Of course, in the worst case scenario you will be left with no rope (so then you'll probably have to resort to prayer, even if you're an atheist!)

But taking each of the less than worst case scenarios:

1. No belay device. Everyone should be taught how to use a Munter or Italian Hitch. It looks terrifyingly simple but it is in fact brilliantly safe. You can also use karabiner brakes - I've done that a few times (before someone showed me the Munter Hitch) and I really don't recommend it: very unnerving indeed.

2. No harness or belay plate. Then you will have to do a classic abseil with a sling and krab. (Best method is what the Americans call a 'diaper sling') And then the rope over one shoulder. Everyone should know how to do this. Before the days of harnesses and descendeurs this was the standard, routine way of abseiling. One thing you have to watch with this is rope burns to the neck on very steep or overhanging terrain. You will always need at least a very thick shirt, but ideally a sweater too.

3. No gear at all except the rope. Then you will have to resort to the ghastly original form of abseiling (the Dulfer, I think it was called) with the rope between your legs, across your back and then over one shoulder. It is extremely uncomfortable/painful - but in a life and death situation it's a lot better than nothing. I had to do it once and it was truly grim.
 Howard J 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

>Therefore to be in full control, you can't really manage the prussik and brake with the same hand since they are doing two very different tasks, ergo two hands below is normal.

Managing the prusik requires nothing more than squeezing it so it doesn't grip the rope while you're descending. This happens quite naturally as you hold the rope to control the descent. They're not really different tasks and can be done quite easily with the same hand.

It's not the grip on the rope that provides the braking, it's the angle at which the rope goes through the device which creates the friction. The position of the hand relative to the device rather than the grip on the rope controls this. In normal abseils one hand can provide sufficient control. In some situations, for example on a free ab or where carrying a load, I will use two - this is because I can create better friction with pulling the rope against the device with my left hand rather than trying to push it with my right.

In a normal abseil I find that gripping with both hands is unnecessary and restrictive. I have more freedom to look around and pick the best line if I keep one above the device for balance. If I need to bring it below the device I can easily do so, but that's only in particular circumstances.

I agree that with novices it's better that they use two hands below the rope to avoid them instinctively clinging to the rope above the device. However more experienced abseilers will use a variety of techniques according to circumstances

In reply to Joel Perkin:

And the other thing to remember is that you should wear thick gloves - the thicker the better - and big bendy boots, preferably toe capped, so that you kick off all the sharp little edges that can damage your ropes. Camouflage trousers make everybody aware that you know what you're doing, but I agree that if you can shout to onlookers that you can do it with both hands, people will definitely think you're in the SAS. And probably have a girlfriend.

And bounce. A lot. As it's rockfall that's going to kill you, the less time spent in contact with the rock, the less risk.

Remember you have right of way when meeting climbers coming up.

Don't ever train in trees - your camouflage trousers may blend in so well that your support party never find you again. Best stick to bridges - plus you'll probably find close relatives living underneath

Hope this helps - happy ab'ing

Martin
 MG 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Your suggestion of deliberately flicking a loaded rope terrifies me. Loaded ropes cut with astonishing ease and I would want to try and avoid any lateral movement of rope over rock that I can. Regarding Prussik back-ups - they take at most a few seconds to apply and could well be life-saving. A bit like seatbelts, having never needed one in anger isn't a good reason for not using one.
In reply to MG:

> Your suggestion of deliberately flicking a loaded rope terrifies me. Loaded ropes cut with astonishing ease and I would want to try and avoid any lateral movement of rope over rock that I can. Regarding Prussik back-ups - they take at most a few seconds to apply and could well be life-saving. A bit like seatbelts, having never needed one in anger isn't a good reason for not using one.

Abseiling in an emergency situation IS terrifying, or at least, extremely demanding and nerve-wracking. Flicking the ropes is not a suggestion, it's a hard reality that's forced on you, often, as you descend. Because, from above, you can't always see the best line to take. Ideally you take the weight off the ropes when you flick them. This is often possible on Alpine type terrain with ledges, big holds etc.

Towards the end of my climbing, when I was doing a lot of climbing photography using static lines, I started using prusik back-ups - particularly as one often had to switch back and forth from using an ascendeur to a descendeur, a quite tricky and potentially dangerous maneouvre. When I was using several quite heavy cameras (film, pre-digital) I'd have each of them attached with prussiks to a separate safety line that I would be attached to too. That left the main static line free of all prusiks apart from the ones you were ascending on. The safety line was also useful for stopping you rotating on the static line when taking pics on an overhanging crag.
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Howard J:


> Managing the prusik requires nothing more than squeezing it so it doesn't grip the rope while you're descending. This happens quite naturally as you hold the rope to control the descent. They're not really different tasks and can be done quite easily with the same hand.

Fundamentally, for the prussik to engage, you have to let go of it. Clearly, this is not compatible with holding on to it.

> I agree that with novices it's better that they use two hands below the rope to avoid them instinctively clinging to the rope above the device.

It's nothing to do with novices.
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to needvert:

> Yada yada yada.

If I'm a strawman, then you're a cherry picker. Out of interest, where do you do your climbing?
 Howard J 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Fundamentally, for the prussik to engage, you have to let go of it. Clearly, this is not compatible with holding on to it.

But you don't want the prusik to engage while you're descending. The whole point is that it only engages if you should let go of the rope.

 Rob Exile Ward 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

I'm right handed and routinely abseil with my left hand above the device and the right (controlling) hand below it. But I'm sure I could do it either way, or indeed swap mid way down.
 doz 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
>In all my 40 years of climbing from 1967-2007, I never saw anyone using any kind of backup system while abseiling<

In all my years of climbing I never saw anyone not using backup
Use a prussik Joel....no matter how experienced you are or how good a climber you may be, if a rock/lump of ice/errant climber hits your head you are going to let go of that rope
Post edited at 21:25
 Rob Exile Ward 13 Jun 2014
In reply to doz:

Attaching a prusik is not a no-cost option. It's something else to go wrong - get jammed in the device perhaps - and will take time to set up on multiple abseils. I'm not sure that it might not give a false sense of security as well.

Personally I've never used one, and I don't suppose I ever will. I'm not sure though whether I would encourage my kids to use one or not.
 doz 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> It's something else to go wrong - get jammed in the device perhaps

Never seen this happen ...if it did still seems better option than falling

>will take time to set up on multiple abseils

Maybe twenty seconds per rap..so on a ten pitch ab that would be 3 minutes or so..mmm

>not sure that it might not give a false sense of security as well.

Yep ..certainly no sense of security without one


 Doghouse 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> I'm knee deep in big walls around here, so I reckon I probably do a bit more big abbing than most on here.


Not actually that big a big walls then if you're only knee deep in them?
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Doghouse:

I have massive knees.
 Jonny2vests 13 Jun 2014
In reply to Howard J:

> But you don't want the prusik to engage while you're descending. The whole point is that it only engages if you should let go of the rope.

Right, so in your scenario, if you want to stop for some reason, you just let go completely and have complete faith in the prussik?

 Mike Lates 14 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> a few tragic cases where the anchor had failed.

An oversight in modern teaching seems to be that abseil anchors are not always 100% reliable. Real climbing leaves us needing to retreat from shitty rock, snow or ice & I suspect that this is a factor behind the split of opinion going on in this thread.
If you've never had to abseil off a crap anchor your top priority will almost certainly have been not letting go of the rope followed by where you're going to arrive.
Try it sometime, preferably with a nice solid back-up that will put up with a high-factor impact. You'll find that delicacy, smoothness etc are far higher priority than not letting go of the rope, which suddenly seems to happen quite instinctively. I suspect the more traditional one-handed method has a lot to do with maintaining this delicacy.
Alternating grip between hands is now used by many climbers; to me its akin to bad clutch control when driving. A jerky ride is not good for that thin icicle you're abbing off.
For the same reason I strongly dislike the "prussic below" method; its very hard to slide a french prussic down a wet rope or one that is limp because it isn't hanging heavily downwards; some inevitable bouncing happens in these situations as the rope has to be fed. A kleimheist prussic above is always sliding down a tight rope so smooth as a babes bum
Widespread prussic use is, on the whole, a good development Gordon but I'm not surprised you didn't adopt it. If you did give it a go and had the horribly jerky experience I'm sure it just felt inherently wrong so a ludicrous back-step.
needvert 14 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

The majority has been on NSW sandstone, most of that in the Blue Mountains.
 Jonny2vests 14 Jun 2014
In reply to needvert:

Nice area, hopefully going this December.
 Howard J 14 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Right, so in your scenario, if you want to stop for some reason, you just let go completely and have complete faith in the prussik?

No, if I want to stop I use the braking hand to increase the friction through the device. The prusik is only there as a back up, like the handbrake on a car.

I usually clip the device into the belay loop, and my right (braking) hand grips the rope by my right hip. It is also gripping the French prusik which keeps this disengaged. To use my left hand as well would mean reaching across my body, which is awkward and usually unnecessary. In my experience one hand is quite sufficient to control the descent in almost all circumstances. If I do need extra grip then I can use both hands, but most of the time I don't need to.

Having the left hand free means I can pick my nose, scratch my arse or more usefully hold the rope above the device for better balance when turning to look where I am going.

I'm obviously not saying that using two hands is wrong, just that in my experience it's usually unnecessary and clumsy. If you extend the device with a sling then it becomes less clumsy and is possibly a more natural place to put the other hand, but that's not my usual setup unless I'm carrying a big sack.

I don't usually find it's a problem to slide a French prusik, even on a wet rope as Mike Lates describes. However it's important not to have too many wraps around the rope - I find four is about right, any more and it does tend to stick.
In reply to Mike Lates:

I agree with you 100 per cent Mike. Yes, I did give it a go, and didn't like it at all, for all the reasons you say. I agree particularly with your point about delicacy and smoothness. All the abseil accidents I've heard about are the result of anchor failure.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Attaching a prusik is not a no-cost option. It's something else to go wrong - get jammed in the device perhaps - and will take time to set up on multiple abseils. I'm not sure that it might not give a false sense of security as well.

> Personally I've never used one, and I don't suppose I ever will. I'm not sure though whether I would encourage my kids to use one or not.

I agree with you here.
 Pete O'Donovan 14 Jun 2014
In reply to Mike Lates:

Some very useful information here, but (maybe) epic escapes using dodgy anchors on mixed ground and with wet/frozen ropes are probably not quite what the OP had in mind?!

On steep rock in dry conditions I find the prussik attached to leg loop system - with both hands below the abseil device, perfect for multiple abseils. With a little practice it runs very smoothly (not quite so good on low angled rock where you almost have to 'feed' the rope through the device).

Apart from providing crucial safety back-up, the ability to be able to take both hands off (letting the prussik slide up and lock off) is priceless for sorting out the inevitable rope tangles as you descend.

On multiple abseils the leg-loop mounted prussik can actually speed things up: the second man down attaches his prussik to the ropes before the first man actually reaches the next belay. As soon as the first man clips into the belay below and releases some slack, the second man pulls an armful of rope through his prussik knot, which locks off, leaving enough slack above to quickly and easily thread the abseil device (the normal way of pulling up rope and using your foot to hold the weight isn't always satisfactory).

Not sure if it's been mentioned before but on any abseil which doesn't end on the ground DON'T FORGET TO TIE KNOTS IN THE END OF THE ROPES!

Pete.
 doz 14 Jun 2014
In reply to Mike Lates:

Interesting points Mike.... I have only ever jammed a Kleimheist...though as Howard J says you don't want too many turns on a prussik.....personally I have always thought stuff dropping on you as one of the biggest objective hazards climbing...but then I would never climb without a helmet!
It is possible to ab delicately with a prussik!!
 Howard J 14 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

I think the lesson to be drawn is that there's no one 'right way'. As with most aspects of climbing, there is a range of techniques and which you use may depend on circumstances or simply personal preference. What is important is that you are efficient and confidence with the method you use and aware of its pros and cons, and able to adapt when something different is required. Also as with most aspects of climbing, it's important to understand the principles of what you're doing rather than simply blindly following what you've been shown.

And double-check everything before setting off.
In reply to Howard J:

Treble-check
 Michael Gordon 16 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Right, so in your scenario, if you want to stop for some reason, you just let go completely and have complete faith in the prussik?

Why not? (though personally I would let my weight come on to the prussik slowly)

Is this not what you often do when abbing for gear that needs two hands to remove?
 Michael Gordon 16 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

I'd agree with Gordon that having a hand on the rope above just feels better when e.g. sussing out where your next anchor will be etc.
 Neil Williams 16 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

"Because anybody sane will put the french prussik (if they are using one) BELOW the plate. Therefore to be in full control, you can't really manage the prussik and brake with the same hand since they are doing two very different tasks, ergo two hands below is normal."

I do like 2 hands below for extra security and so as not to end up with rope burns from the rope sliding through the brake hand, particularly if not using a prussik, but if you do the prussik correctly you *can* control it with one hand, you effectively brake holding it.

Neil
 Jonny2vests 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Neil Williams and others:

> but if you do the prussik correctly you *can* control it with one hand, you effectively brake holding it.

Yeah but I just don't understand why you would bother to learn that when the other hand is doing bugger all. If I want to take gear out etc, I would come to a complete stop onto the prussik, possibly wrap it round my leg too, perform task, then carry on as before.
 tlm 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I'm a bit baffled by this business of both hands below the device. Don't people swing about a bit any longer when making an abseil, to ensure they follow the best line? - and to do that, you need one hand on the weighted ropes. It also lets you lean right out if you have to.

Why? You've got your whole bum on the weighted ropes, which you can use to move them... Don't you just use your feet against the rock to move around? And as to removing gear, don't you just lock the rope off and have both hands free to do that?
 Howard J 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Yeah but I just don't understand why you would bother to learn that when the other hand is doing bugger all.

I don't understand why you would bother to use one hand to control the prusik and one to control the rope when one hand can easily do both.

Why not just accept that both methods are valid, both methods are safe and both have their pros and cons? Just use whichever method you are most comfortable with and which is most suitable to the situation you are facing.

In reply to tlm:

> Why? You've got your whole bum on the weighted ropes, which you can use to move them... Don't you just use your feet against the rock to move around? And as to removing gear, don't you just lock the rope off and have both hands free to do that?

I didn't mean that (i.e a conventional abseil gently sliding down a steep, smooth wall) - I was talking about the quite common situation on more broken ground, where you are necessarily having to rearrange the exact line of the ropes above you as you go. Of course, many steep abseils are like this too, with ledges - and sharp edges - that have to be gone over. Both hands below the device renders you much more inert and undynamic. Also, I guess it depends a lot how one was 'brought up'. All my original abseiling was 'classic' abseiling with a thigh sling and screwgate krab and rope over one shoulder, and the left hand HAD to be on the ropes above you. Old habits die hard.

You 'why?' is odd. Your profile suggest you are quite an experienced climber, so it's odd that you have to ask this.
In reply to tlm:

PS. Best summed up by Needvert at 08:57 last Friday. Also, how come most of the more experienced climbers on here, like Howard J, Rob Exile Ward and Mike Lates (latter a vastly experienced mountain guide) agree with me?
 Kid Spatula 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

Why not just use a long prusik and have your knot above the abseil device but within reach. Thereby it can't enter your belay device and kill you, AND you can happily control the knot while using your left hand on the live rope. Best of both worlds.
 MG 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Mike Lates:
> For the same reason I strongly dislike the "prussic below" method; its very hard to slide a french prussic down a wet rope or one that is limp because it isn't hanging heavily downwards; some inevitable bouncing happens in these situations

I can't say I have ever had this problem with an autoblock below, even on wet and gritty ropes, although I can see the concern and it would clearly be a problem if a Kleimheist were used. However, it's perhaps worth noting too that a prussic below has the advantage of never needing to take much load, all it is doing is holding the dead rope in the same position as your hand would. This is unlike a prussic above with has to hold full body weight to be effective. Therefore even a loosely tied autoblock below is very effective and quick to tie.
Post edited at 10:50
 Ffion Blethyn 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Kid Spatula:

> Why not just use a long prusik and have your knot above the abseil device but within reach. Thereby it can't enter your belay device and kill you, AND you can happily control the knot while using your left hand on the live rope. Best of both worlds.

This is the way I was taught how to do it.

As fas as I can tell when the Prusik is below the plate it only needs to grip the rope enough to maintain the angle of rope through the belay plate to lock it off, when it's above the plate the Prusik has to hold the whole weight of the climber.
 Jonny2vests 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Howard J:

> I don't understand why you would bother to use one hand to control the prusik and one to control the rope when one hand can easily do both.

> Why not just accept that both methods are valid, both methods are safe and both have their pros and cons? Just use whichever method you are most comfortable with and which is most suitable to the situation you are facing.

Because I can drive one handed too if I really try, but thankfully I don't have to and I realise two handed control is quite simply better and safer.
 GrahamD 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Ffion Blethyn:

I started this way, but abandoned it when the prussic 'bit' when I didn't want it to and would not shift for love nor money once weighted. If I bother at all, the prussic goes below the ATC now.

For what its worth, I find holding the dead rope and the belay loop with the left hand and using the right hand as a conventional control hand works well for me in keeping abseils smooth and controlled.
 Jonny2vests 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> PS. Best summed up by Needvert at 08:57 last Friday. Also, how come most of the more experienced climbers on here, like Howard J, Rob Exile Ward and Mike Lates (latter a vastly experienced mountain guide) agree with me?

Those last two posts... You come across as quite the snob sometimes Gordon. Granted 40+ years is a lot, still get out much on serious terrain though? I do this stuff day in day out (he asserts, snobbishly).

Two hands below is the most commonly taught method I see these days. If you did a national body multipitch leading course, a guide would most likely teach that as best practice as it is the evolution of accumulated knowledge. Two hands below is the default position, if you need to bounce around or free the line etc etc, then quite simply you do that, then return to the default position. It's not the only way, it's just the best way, because otherwise the top hand spends most of the time doing precisely naff all, so why not employ it?
 Howard J 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Driving and abseiling aren't comparable activities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how you're describing your method. My interpretation is that you're using one hand to manage the prusik and the other for braking. If that is the case then you're still using only one hand to control the abseil. I find I can very easily manage the prusik with the same hand, since it simply involves gripping the knot as well as the rope. I don't find it makes the descent any more difficult to control. Believe me, I'm no fan of abseiling, I consider it dangerous and something to be done only when necessary, and if I didn't feel I had adequate control over my descent I certainly wouldn't use this method.

If you're using both hands to brake with, all I can say is that in nearly all situations I don't find this is necessary. When it is necessary, I'll happily do so, but I find it restricts me from turning round to see where I'm going so I don't do it as routine.

Since you clearly find your method works for you, fine. I'm not trying to persuade to stop using it. I just wonder why you seem so opposed to the one-handed method.
 MG 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Howard J:

since it simply involves gripping the knot as well as the rope.

If the knot is below and is an autoblock, you don't even need to squeeze it, it just rests against your hand and stays loose. The advantage of two hands I would say is that you have an additional backup. With one hand, if you lose grip for any reason you are immediately relying on a prussic, if you have one. I broadly agree with your post though - there is a lot of dogmatism around this
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Those last two posts... You come across as quite the snob sometimes Gordon. Granted 40+ years is a lot, still get out much on serious terrain though? I do this stuff day in day out (he asserts, snobbishly).

No, I don't get out climbing at all these days, as I have often openly stated, because of an unusual eyesight problem which makes it difficult to judge distances between 0 and about 6 feet. Means you can't see what you're doing properly with your feet.

But what I said was based on 40 years of climbing experience, and was backed up by other experienced climbers here. I also said that I would use both hands below the device, didn't I?, particularly if it was an ATC, if the friction was bad. (BTW, someone took me to task about that - my experience with the original ATC was that it hadn't got quite enough friction for a long free space abseil, partic when you got near the bottom, such that you'd usually have to wrap the rope below you round one leg - but I was using the term ATC generically for the weird and wonderful belay devices that emanated from that original concept. I had at least three different rather similar ones at the end of my climbing, with differing amounts of friction when abbing.)

Can't talk anymore about such climbing basics now when huge things happening elsewhere. Sorry. Cheers.
In reply to Howard J:

> Since you clearly find your method works for you, fine. I'm not trying to persuade to stop using it. I just wonder why you seem so opposed to the one-handed method.

It makes no sense, does it? Because all those devices rely entirely on the position of the hand/rope, and not on the friction provided by the hand/s. If it were the latter, this modern system of abseiling would be disastrously dangerous.

In reply to Howard J:

PS. Final word before I have to go. Just did a Google on 'abseil', clicked Images, and found that just about everyone - well over 90 % of those in the pics - do it the way I remember doing it.
 Jimbo C 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I do it the same as you, dominant hand below, other hand above the device - never really thought about it, it just comes naturally.

I find a prussic useful for stopping whilst trying to remove particularly stubborn gear - in fact most of my abseiling has been to remove gear, as most of my climbing has been single pitch.
dudders 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:
The most important abseiling advice is that after a long freehanging abseil, make sure you remove your belay device and krab from your belay loop before you take a piss, otherwise you can burn your willy.
Post edited at 15:10
In reply to dudders:

You could do much worse things with your willy with the old-fashioned, classic abseil.
I have seen someone abseil off the end of there rope at Verdon.
I was abseiling down near him, had to step over his body to get to the easy way back up. Not a good start to the holiday!
Since then I have usually used a petzl shunt as back up for multi pitch abs.
I always used it with the left hand in the upper position as that just seems more natural than the other way around. Petzl seem to say either way is okay, just be aware that it is more difficult to unload in the upper position.


In reply to Dick, Still a Fat B:

Tragic, but extraordinary. Because putting a huge knot in the end of your abseil ropes is another 'page one' thing to do on a serious abseil of that nature.
 tlm 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I didn't mean that (i.e a conventional abseil gently sliding down a steep, smooth wall) - I was talking about the quite common situation on more broken ground,

Ah! Yes - I could see moving your hands around to flick the rope above you - hard to do with your bum! Yes - I too first abseiled with a classic absiel... but then I would move my hand back to the bottom rope as the abseil steepened again.

> You 'why?' is odd. Your profile suggest you are quite an experienced climber, so it's odd that you have to ask this.

It's always good to ask questions, Gordon. I think you've actually hit the nail on the head. Most of us do what we are used to/brought up on, rather than there being one right one and only way to do things.

I was just making the point that shit happens.
And a shunt seems safer than a prussik.

One thing no one seems to worry about is getting there hair or clothing stuck in the abseil device. Much easier to sort out with your back up device above the abseil device.



 OwenM 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Dick, Still a Fat B:



> One thing no one seems to worry about is getting there hair or clothing stuck in the abseil device.

I did that once many years ago when I had hair. I was using an old style figure 8 descender at the time, I lent forward to grab a stuck sling and as I did I let some slack slip through the figure 8 which caught my hair. Very painful. This was around 1975 years before using a back-up prussik had been thought about.

 Michael Gordon 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> otherwise the top hand spends most of the time doing precisely naff all, so why not employ it?

Since only one hand is required below the device, one hand will be doing naff all either way. There is no better way. It's only officially taught that way to novices now because there's the assumption that they are less likely to bugger up that way. But then if you have the correct setup and control it effectively with a back-up if necessary, then there is no problem.
 FreshSlate 17 Jun 2014
If you cannot hold body-weight with one hand, how do you belay?
In reply to FreshSlate:

You've got the neo-babes right there. End of subject.
 Neil Williams 17 Jun 2014
In reply to FreshSlate:
Personally I put two hands below because then I can slide one un-loaded hand at a time, same as when lowering someone. This gives me better control of the rope and reduces the chance of rope burn. But I have done it with one hand, and it isn't hard.

Neil
Post edited at 22:38
 FreshSlate 17 Jun 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Yeah, I can see it's just a preference thing. I'm sure everyone on here can control their descent either method.
 tlm 18 Jun 2014
In reply to FreshSlate:

> If you cannot hold body-weight with one hand, how do you belay?

You only use one hand to belay?!

It isn't about holding body weight static - it is about lowering body weight. Yes - you can use one hand, but standard good practice nowadays is to use two... It's like steering a car - you can do it with one hand, but show me a driving instructor who would advice you to do this if it wasn't necessary.

But the rules aren't cut and dried. In real life, plenty of people choose to steer with one hand, belay with one hand and abseil with one hand - you need to look at the individual context to decide if this is an appropriate choice or just lazy habits....
 Neil Williams 18 Jun 2014
In reply to tlm:

"You only use one hand to belay?!"

If you hand-change to take in or are paying out, and there is a fall at that precise second, you're initially going to catch with one hand...

Neil
 Julian Laidler 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

Depends which hand you hold your MP5 in
 tlm 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

> "You only use one hand to belay?!"

> If you hand-change to take in or are paying out, and there is a fall at that precise second, you're initially going to catch with one hand...

> Neil

You didn't really understand what I wrote, did you?
 Howard J 18 Jun 2014
In reply to tlm:

>standard good practice nowadays is to use two...

Not according to the BMC leaflet and video:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/belaying-abseiling-leaflet

I can see why this method is taught to novices, and in particular it helps to avoid the panic instinct to cling onto the rope above the device. However experienced abseilers who understand how the device works are unlikely to make this mistake.

I think it comes down to what you were taught, and what you are comfortable with. I first learned to abseil with the semi-classic technique (improvised sling harness, rope through a karabiner and over the shoulder with a twist around the arm for added friction) so I've always been accustomed to using only one hand to control the descent. The Figure 8 and later the ATC just made it easier (and less painful).

Both methods have their pros and cons and both provide full control, in my experience.


 tlm 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Howard J:

> >standard good practice nowadays is to use two...

I said this in reference to belaying, rather than abseiling, although I was comparing the two - the bmc say that when lowering a climber, you should have two hands on the rope feeding in to the belay device in their film here:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/new-belaying-film


> I can see why this method is taught to novices, and in particular it helps to avoid the panic instinct to cling onto the rope above the device. However experienced abseilers who understand how the device works are unlikely to make this mistake.

I just thought that the dead rope is the end that there is only any real point in holding (unless you are doing something like flicking the rope above you when it is unweighted as was pointed out earlier). I just thought it was to make sure that you have two hands to deal with the dead rope, rather than just one - redundancy in the system and all that...

But what the hell - I've already said that which I use or think is right is completely context dependent, so I guess you and I are agreeing about everything anyway.
 PPPatrick 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

Utterly brilliant Joel. The results speak for themselves. Pure genius. 10/10.
 Mark Kemball 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:

It took folks a long while to spot it, get back under your bridge!

New to climbing... ?
 FreshSlate 18 Jun 2014
In reply to tlm:
> You only use one hand to belay?!

You lower with one hand keeping the cam of a gri gri and other devices open. Those who place the backup above the belay mind it and use one hand below the belay. There was also the tactical and route finding examples, lots of times when someone is lowering or abseiling with one hand below the device. It's clearly perfectly acceptable either way. It's not like driving where it's people being lazy or distracted...
Post edited at 14:00
 loose overhang 19 Jun 2014
In reply to Joel Perkin:
My first abseiling lesson was in 1971 with the Dulfer wrap-around; interestingly, down and over a bridge. I didn't see any trolls under it, they appeared much later. I did it without any safety rope from above and thought it to be dangerous and painful. But being ignorant of any other method I accepted it as being the standard. I was soon to run into more experienced novices who used twisted webbing around both thighs, a waist belt and the karabiner-brake bar. This was slightly less dangerous, but no less painful. Eventually I owned a Whillan's and a figure-8 descender. This seemed to be the ultimate abseil equipment because with a cross-over of the rope it could be locked-off, and I could hang, hands free --- sort of. The Stitch plate came along which served dual-purpose to be an abseil and a belay device. Then the refinements of this basic design improved it.

Over the last forty plus years I've learned a number of things which I employ as my general guide to going down rock faces and mountains.

One: don't abseil if it is possible to safely walk-off or down-climb --- both are usually much faster.

Two: If the party must abseil, do a check of who is most and least experienced and never be afraid to speak one's opinion of how it could be done. Take control if necessary.

Three: If the situation requires it, abandon anchor equipment. A back-up piece which costs 1/2 of one's hourly rate is .... you get it. Tie knots in the end of the rope if necessary.

Four: Concentrate, be aware, double-check, triple-check. The anticipated result of pulling knotted ropes can be the most nerve-wracking experience. "Please don't get stuck, please don't get stuck"

Onto the OP's question.

At this point in my evolution as a climber I use a BD ATC. I've used them for about 20 years or so. I belay with my left hand down, right hand up, and abseil the same way. It seems natural for me to do this, even though I'm right-handed. I use my left as the gripping (never-let-go) hand when playing ice hockey and cricket. I also use the same left-hand grip when frying eggs or holding a bowl to beat cream. I almost always use my right hand for fine motor skills. I like having my dominant right hand free to fiddle with things. So if cleaning or gardening a route, en-rappel, I prefer my right hand to be free.

I think a safety knot or Prussic should be used. I tie a 6mm cord above the ATC. It is not close to being long enough to be out of reach, less than 45cm (18in), so it cannot lock-up, out of reach. I can therefore use my upper right hand to easily move the knot as I slide down the rope. I prefer this to a lower safety knot which could get trapped in the ATC, especially unwanted during a free-space abseil. If the need arises for me to go "hands free" I can lock the prussic, then easily unlock it by doing a quick lift with both hands. This is very easy on less than vertical rock, less so in space, but quite do-able, by doing a leg (left) loop. If one gets in a pickle, use a second prussic and take all the weight off the ATC.

A couple of notes. If the person abseiling down second loses control, use a Fireman's Brake, i.e. pull the rope tight. It'll slow or stop them. Recently I climbed with friends who had new, very skinny, 8.2mm? 1/2 ropes. We did a 65m, partly free ab. My ATC was not supposed to be used for this. I tied a prussic, three times (not the usual two) around for safety because the ropes were so slippery and used an extra carabiner for friction. It worked perfectly. I began to learn how do to this on that bridge back in 1971. I knew there was a troll under it!

Be safe folks.
Post edited at 07:21

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