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knocking down internal walls

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 KingStapo 18 Jun 2014
So, I have this wall that i want to knock down between my bathroom and WC.

It's block (oldish house - 1950s) not stud. Has no walls above. Fairly certain knocking it down will be fine, but which professional do i employ to tell me that it will be 100% A-OK to knock it down without having to put any other supports in anywhere or do anything else?

Architect? Surveyor? Civil Engineer?

I want to do the job myself and need someone to sue if my house falls down. Builder has offered to do it for almost £400, his insurance probably means he's happy to take a flyer on it based on his preoffesional opinion and experience - but i don't want to pay for it.
 MG 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:
You'll need building control to approve it. If you are lucky they will agree it is not load bearing, if not you will need a structural engineer to check what is going on. If you don't get BC approval, selling your house may prove interesting..
Post edited at 13:39
 MG 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

Are there any joists resting on it?
 Nutkey 18 Jun 2014
In reply to MG:
You only need Buildings Control to approve it if it is load bearing. They are not interested in non-load bearing walls. You won't be able to sue them (and win) either way.

A builder may well not have insurance, and a structural engineer needn't have any either - it's not a reserved title (i.e. anyone can call themselves one).

If you want someone to determine whether or not it's ok, as opposed to sue, then you want a structural engineer.



Post edited at 13:50
 MG 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Nutkey:
> You only need Buildings Control to approve it if it is load bearing. They are not interested in non-load bearing walls.

They may still be interested in the fire safety aspects and, it being a bathroom, drainage and such like. I would definitely get in touch to see what they say.


> A builder may well not have insurance, and a structural engineer needn't have any either - it's not a reserved title (i.e. anyone can call themselves one).

MIStructE and C.Eng are what you should look for - they indicate professional engineer status.
Post edited at 13:52
OP KingStapo 18 Jun 2014
In reply to MG:
Just spoke to building control who agreed that if it's not load bearing they're not interested.

They said a surveyor or engineer can determnine properly and put it in writing and will probably charge my £150.

Next question - Can a surveyors or engineer determine if a wall is load bearing simply from an architect's drawing or do they need to inspect?
Post edited at 13:55
 Fraser 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

> I ....need someone to sue if my house falls down.... but i don't want to pay for it.

Does that sum up the situation correctly?

 MG 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:


> Next question - Can a surveyors or engineer determine if a wall is load bearing simply from an architect's drawing or do they need to inspect?

I am a structural engineer, although not in this line. However if I was, I wouldn't go off drawings; I would want to see the as built structure which may be rather different. The question above about joists etc. is crucial - what's holding the ceiling/floor above up?
 steve taylor 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

If there's a wall above it, or if the joists on the floor above are perpendicular to the wall (i.e. resting on it), then it's load bearing.

To check the joists, if the floorboards in the rooms above the wall are parallel to the wall, then it is likely to be load bearing.

If you want the surveyor to take the blame for everything going wrong, then they will want to come to the house to check. There can be a massive difference between a drawing and what is actually built!



 Mike Stretford 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:
> I want to do the job myself and need someone to sue if my house falls down. Builder has offered to do it for almost £400, his insurance probably means he's happy to take a flyer on it based on his professional opinion and experience - but i don't want to pay for it.

I think this route could end up costing more than just getting a good builder to do it. As other's have said they'd want to come back. Have you got all the tools, building props ect?
Post edited at 14:37
OP KingStapo 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

More info - it's an upstairs bathroom wall. about 2meters across. wall is parallel to the ceiling joists above it.

I have a mallet and a bolster chisel and i huge garden, within which i can dig a hole to bury blocks.
 ebygomm 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

Don't underestimate what a big pile of bricks you can get from a small wall. I thought a builder's skip would only be half full for a similar sized wall but it ended up just about filling it.
Party Boy 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

> More info - it's an upstairs bathroom wall. about 2meters across. wall is parallel to the ceiling joists above it.

> I have a mallet and a bolster chisel and i huge garden, within which i can dig a hole to bury blocks.

Go for it. If joists are parallel then you don't need to pay somebody to tell you it's not load bearing. As somebody else said, don't underestimate what a big pile of bricks it will produce. Also, don't underestimate the amount of dust that will be generated....
 wilkie14c 18 Jun 2014
In reply to ebygomm:
> Don't underestimate what a big pile of bricks you can get from a small wall.

Well said! I did exactly what the OP is wanting here, removed a non loadbearing wall that divided the toilet from the bathroom. 2 layers of tiles 2 layers of plaster and a single course of hollow clay lightweight bricks. Took weeks to get rid of bit by bit and created hell of a lot of mess. I bricked up one of the windows as the 2 rooms before then after becomes 1 big room but with 2 windows. Bathroom looks superb now though, we have a big shower/bath, room for a nice sink and vanity unit and a concealed cistern unit. Chromed towel rail, spot lights and half tiled all round with full tile in shower area. Looks great and did the lot myself, cost about 2.5K start to finish.
The biggest tip I can give here is that if the OP is faced with what I was, that is a living house meaning the toiled & sink cant be disconnected for more than a few hours at a time, then fit isolation valves under the floors that feed the water in and fit long flex hoses to all the taps ad feeds. It means you can very quickly knock off the water to the toilet/sink/bath without disrupting the whole house and also means the toiled/sink can be pulled out from the wall at will which makes tiling and flooring easy. Fit a concertina waste pipe to the bog too.
A challenging project but I'm over the moon with what I managed. Get all your bits from screwfix if you have one, don't go near B&Q!!
Post edited at 15:08
 Bob 18 Jun 2014
In reply to Party Boy:

Having a small sprayer like a plant sprayer can help (but not completely solve) the dust problem. Damp things down before you start disturbing them.
OP KingStapo 18 Jun 2014
In reply to wilkie14c:

Thanks for the encouragement! luckily the only thing on the wall that needs removing is a radiator and i'm failry confident i can drain the system and cap the pipes below the floor once wall is gone. So minimal water disruption, if any.

Building a new door frame will, i imagine proove the hardst challenge!
 wilkie14c 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:


> Building a new door frame will, i imagine proove the hardst challenge!

Get them ready made from wicks, comes with the sides, tops, trims and shuts, all packed together. Joints are already done and easy enough to fit, I've used 3 or 4 round the house and they are fine.
OP KingStapo 18 Jun 2014
In reply to wilkie14c:

Jackpot!
 jkarran 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

> More info - it's an upstairs bathroom wall. about 2meters across. wall is parallel to the ceiling joists above it.
> I have a mallet and a bolster chisel and i huge garden, within which i can dig a hole to bury blocks.

Borrow a power breaker and get a skip bag, save yourself a big pile of work for little money.

It sounds like my bathroom wall, mine's not bearing any load from above or buttressing the exterior wall. It's days are numbered. Unfortunately my interior partitions are all made of nasty cinder blocks, the dust is awful.

jk
 Mike Stretford 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:
I've just finished a house renovation. My advice to anyone would be if you can, earn extra money through what you know, and pay a builder to do it. I toiled at some stuff, causing disruption that lasted weeks, only to later see a builder do similar much quicker with much less disruption. They've got tools I didn't know existed and of course skills from having done it hundreds of times over.

Right, I'll shut up now and leave you to encouraging people!
Post edited at 16:12
 Trangia 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

It's not just a mater of whether or not there are walls above. The first floor structure may rely on this wall for support.

Don't forget Chartered Building Surveyors they are just as well qualified as a Structural Engineer to check this out and the RICS insists that they have Professional Indemnity Insurance.

A Chartered Surveyor or Structural Engineer would need to inspect, and it may be nessessary for them to lift floorboards on the first floor. If this is tricky eg tongued and grooved bloor board, you may need to employ a carpenter to do this and re-instate or do it yourself. You may also have to move furniture and lift fitted carpets.

Some builders are qualified EG Chartered Builders, in which case you can rely on their opinion and they will carry Professional Indemnity Insurance.
MaxWilliam 18 Jun 2014
In reply to KingStapo:

I've knocked walls down in my own house but have a background in engineering so was very confident about the assessment I made about load bearing. This is easy stuff to do if you understand how buildings are put together. If not a good builder should be sufficient or use structural engineer (search "find an engineer .com"). Write a brief scope of work for a builder and include responsibility for assessing structural aspects.

Either way - I would contact your local building control office with a description of what you intend to do and a simple sketch showing plan of rooms and any structure above. In my case they responded in writing stating work was outside scope of building regulations. Nice to have this when you sell the house. They are generally very helpful.

There is a remote possibility that different regulations apply as well as structure, e.g. fire, thermal efficiency (if you remove render from walls). Also you need to consider if the wall is acting as a stiffener for the adjacent walls (if they are long runs).

SDS drills and kango hammers are great, but they can loosen surrounding brickwork very easily, care is needed around the bits you want to keep.

Depending on the competency and level of making good (e.g. levelling up to floor, plastering the 'gap', removing spoil) £400 could be a good price. I assume £150-£200 a day for a reasonable builder + materials.

I'd recommend a roll of polythene to seal up doors and the gap into the loft (dust in lofts/insulation is impossible to remove but will re-enter the builder as dirt later).

ps - building projects can be addictive...

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