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Anyone got any better ideas? (Euthanasia isn't likely to go down too well in these parts.)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27943591
Fifteen children from the same mother taken into care, FFS!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27943591
Fifteen children from the same mother taken into care, FFS!
In reply to Dispater:
There are better ideas detailed in that article and doubtless more if you click through some of the links.
jk
There are better ideas detailed in that article and doubtless more if you click through some of the links.
jk
In reply to Dispater:
Sorry to say this but the USA tried this back in the 1930, as did Hitler, apparently it is frowned upon!
Sorry to say this but the USA tried this back in the 1930, as did Hitler, apparently it is frowned upon!
In reply to Dispater:
It does make you wonder though. Shame that its got to this state that we feel the need to think about forced birth control.
:/
It does make you wonder though. Shame that its got to this state that we feel the need to think about forced birth control.
:/
In reply to Dispater:
The trouble is if you allow folk like that to breed countless more idiots, with no self control or awareness they;'ll eventually take over.
You need a licence to breed and/.or own some animals. But you can quite happily knock out rug rats as fast as the state can give you financial assistance. No qualifications needed. Not even a day course, yet from this year anyone who wants to gas moles will need a qualification.
Perhaps we might introduce contraception into the waters of some of the estates where these people proliferate and waste space. It would also solve the housing crisis too. Anyway more than two kids is not sustainable breeding in the long term..
The trouble is if you allow folk like that to breed countless more idiots, with no self control or awareness they;'ll eventually take over.
You need a licence to breed and/.or own some animals. But you can quite happily knock out rug rats as fast as the state can give you financial assistance. No qualifications needed. Not even a day course, yet from this year anyone who wants to gas moles will need a qualification.
Perhaps we might introduce contraception into the waters of some of the estates where these people proliferate and waste space. It would also solve the housing crisis too. Anyway more than two kids is not sustainable breeding in the long term..
Post edited at 13:34
In reply to Dave Perry:
And therein lies one notable issue - it seems to be becoming more common for people to have more than two children again, with the argument particularly amongst more affluent people being that if they're able to afford it then what's the problem...
> Anyway more than two kids is not sustainable breeding in the long term..
And therein lies one notable issue - it seems to be becoming more common for people to have more than two children again, with the argument particularly amongst more affluent people being that if they're able to afford it then what's the problem...
In reply to Dispater:
I have previously wondered if there were some way to render all women incapable of conception without giving a certain medication sort of the opposite of a contraceptive.
Then the conceptive would only be given once they passed a test to prove that they are capable of raising a child and have the means to do so.
I know that system would be hard to enforce as who would set the test and how open would it be to abuse etc.
Still an interesting thought i think
I have previously wondered if there were some way to render all women incapable of conception without giving a certain medication sort of the opposite of a contraceptive.
Then the conceptive would only be given once they passed a test to prove that they are capable of raising a child and have the means to do so.
I know that system would be hard to enforce as who would set the test and how open would it be to abuse etc.
Still an interesting thought i think
In reply to ow arm:
Haha! Perhaps something similar could be applied to men too, some sort of fecklessness test.
> I have previously wondered if there were some way to render all women incapable of conception without giving a certain medication sort of the opposite of a contraceptive.
> Then the conceptive would only be given once they passed a test to prove that they are capable of raising a child and have the means to do so.
Haha! Perhaps something similar could be applied to men too, some sort of fecklessness test.
In reply to ow arm:
No its not an interesting thought… state sponsored long term hormonal treatment..
what a wonderful enlightened view…
what a horrid right wing post, the right to have a child taken away, the most basic human drive removed… ffs are for real?
It's pretty simple, just change the benefits system.
> I have previously wondered if there were some way to render all women incapable of conception without giving a certain medication sort of the opposite of a contraceptive.
> Then the conceptive would only be given once they passed a test to prove that they are capable of raising a child and have the means to do so.
> I know that system would be hard to enforce as who would set the test and how open would it be to abuse etc.
> Still an interesting thought i think
No its not an interesting thought… state sponsored long term hormonal treatment..
what a wonderful enlightened view…
what a horrid right wing post, the right to have a child taken away, the most basic human drive removed… ffs are for real?
It's pretty simple, just change the benefits system.
In reply to IainRUK:
It also places all the responsibility on women.
I don't agree with sterilisation, tests of competence and that sort of thing - being a young parent doesn't mean one is a bad parent, neither does having lots of kids (though the latter is arguably more problematic from a sustainability perspective). I also think it would be unlikely that changing the benefits system would make a difference. I'll get berated by stroppy for being a fluffy liberal but I think unpicking the underlying issues (e.g. the drug abuse) and educating people about the situation they're in make more sense and are likely to have more success.
It also places all the responsibility on women.
I don't agree with sterilisation, tests of competence and that sort of thing - being a young parent doesn't mean one is a bad parent, neither does having lots of kids (though the latter is arguably more problematic from a sustainability perspective). I also think it would be unlikely that changing the benefits system would make a difference. I'll get berated by stroppy for being a fluffy liberal but I think unpicking the underlying issues (e.g. the drug abuse) and educating people about the situation they're in make more sense and are likely to have more success.
In reply to IainRUK:
Ive also wondered if I were in charge of such things in what way I would change the benefit system, and in honesty I cant think of any way significant to improve it without having the side effect of increasing poverty, crime etc
Ive also wondered if I were in charge of such things in what way I would change the benefit system, and in honesty I cant think of any way significant to improve it without having the side effect of increasing poverty, crime etc
In reply to cander:
and what do you base that on?
Im an open minded person and try and see as many options as possible and weigh up the pros and cons even if its a very out there notion. They are only musings after all. People in power make much worse decisions seemingly without regard to ordinary people.
> (In reply to ow arm)
>
> Do you have children? Because from any reasonable point of view you shouldn't.
>
> Do you have children? Because from any reasonable point of view you shouldn't.
and what do you base that on?
Im an open minded person and try and see as many options as possible and weigh up the pros and cons even if its a very out there notion. They are only musings after all. People in power make much worse decisions seemingly without regard to ordinary people.
In reply to Dispater:
State enforced sterilisation -
At what point would you intervene, whats the cut off point for the number of children?
Surely prevention is better than cure, or in this case multiple children in care.
State enforced sterilisation -
At what point would you intervene, whats the cut off point for the number of children?
Surely prevention is better than cure, or in this case multiple children in care.
In reply to ow arm:
Your post was possibly one of the most appalling statements I've read on here (and there's some pretty bad ones) - talk about misogyny
Reread this - then go and sit on the naughty step and reflect.
"I have previously wondered if there were some way to render all women incapable of conception without giving a certain medication sort of the opposite of a contraceptive.
Then the conceptive would only be given once they passed a test to prove that they are capable of raising a child and have the means to do so".
You think that I have to ask you (the state) for permission to have children with my wife, as does my daughter, as does everyones wife, daughter, partner - just shocking.
Your post was possibly one of the most appalling statements I've read on here (and there's some pretty bad ones) - talk about misogyny
Reread this - then go and sit on the naughty step and reflect.
"I have previously wondered if there were some way to render all women incapable of conception without giving a certain medication sort of the opposite of a contraceptive.
Then the conceptive would only be given once they passed a test to prove that they are capable of raising a child and have the means to do so".
You think that I have to ask you (the state) for permission to have children with my wife, as does my daughter, as does everyones wife, daughter, partner - just shocking.
Post edited at 14:24
In reply to cander:
would you condone Orwell for writing 1984? Or indeed anyone who writes a book or film based on such topics? Surely they are just possibilities based on an extrapolation of logical pathways, and leaves it open to us to interpret, ponder the ethical and moral implications and take away our own message and lesson from it?
would you condone Orwell for writing 1984? Or indeed anyone who writes a book or film based on such topics? Surely they are just possibilities based on an extrapolation of logical pathways, and leaves it open to us to interpret, ponder the ethical and moral implications and take away our own message and lesson from it?
Post edited at 14:33
In reply to ow arm:
You are confusing writing a novel exploring ideas with a post on a forum that makes it look like you have fantasies of eugenics and controlling women. If that's not what you meant, you might need to work on the way you explain yourself using the written word.
> would you condone Orwell for writing 1984?
You are confusing writing a novel exploring ideas with a post on a forum that makes it look like you have fantasies of eugenics and controlling women. If that's not what you meant, you might need to work on the way you explain yourself using the written word.
In reply to Dispater:
Contraception is at the heart of a lot of it. I heard a presentation at a conference that discussed contraception for what were termed vulnerable people and it seemed that many of the people who end up pregnant and having their children taken into care were drug or alcohol addicts and in most cases wanted the option of contraception but their lifestyles got in the way. People under the influence or selling themselves to get their next hit don't stop and think that they better use a condom or they could end up pregnant and along the same lines they aren't the more organised and reliable people to remember pills and such.
After being informed of their options many of the women in the trial were opting for implants and coils.
Contraception is at the heart of a lot of it. I heard a presentation at a conference that discussed contraception for what were termed vulnerable people and it seemed that many of the people who end up pregnant and having their children taken into care were drug or alcohol addicts and in most cases wanted the option of contraception but their lifestyles got in the way. People under the influence or selling themselves to get their next hit don't stop and think that they better use a condom or they could end up pregnant and along the same lines they aren't the more organised and reliable people to remember pills and such.
After being informed of their options many of the women in the trial were opting for implants and coils.
In reply to FactorXXX:
I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
In reply to Dispater:
Great idea. Screw freedom of the individual, let's cut down the numbers of people who are disapproved of by a random bunch of blokes who happen to be on UKC.
Great idea. Screw freedom of the individual, let's cut down the numbers of people who are disapproved of by a random bunch of blokes who happen to be on UKC.
In reply to Tall Clare:
" it seems to be becoming more common for people to have more than two children again, with the argument particularly amongst more affluent people being that if they're able to afford it then what's the problem..."
We are considering a third. I think I can justify it on the fact I don't think my first two will solve global warming or transform the England football team into winners. My third might manage either or both...imagine that!
But agree in principle, the world probably doesn't need another human like I don't need the extra air fare for holidays. But wife doesn't see it through an economic eyeglass
" it seems to be becoming more common for people to have more than two children again, with the argument particularly amongst more affluent people being that if they're able to afford it then what's the problem..."
We are considering a third. I think I can justify it on the fact I don't think my first two will solve global warming or transform the England football team into winners. My third might manage either or both...imagine that!
But agree in principle, the world probably doesn't need another human like I don't need the extra air fare for holidays. But wife doesn't see it through an economic eyeglass
In reply to IainRUK:
I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
I was thinking more of state run sterilisation and birth control against the population as a whole and for reasons other than financial status.
That obviously isn't confined to the Right and apologies if I've clouded the issue.
I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
I was thinking more of state run sterilisation and birth control against the population as a whole and for reasons other than financial status.
That obviously isn't confined to the Right and apologies if I've clouded the issue.
In reply to ow arm:
We need these white working class wasters to breed like rabbits, in order to keep the %age of White British high to counteract the rampant immigration!!!
We need these white working class wasters to breed like rabbits, in order to keep the %age of White British high to counteract the rampant immigration!!!
In reply to IainRUK:
The idea of a controlling state with the remit of choosing who breeds, along with controlling most other aspects of people's lives, is a far-left view.
> I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
The idea of a controlling state with the remit of choosing who breeds, along with controlling most other aspects of people's lives, is a far-left view.
In reply to IainRUK:
I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
Although state dictated birth control has been advocated by both ends of the political spectrum.
While I don't have any sort of direct solution for this I am not sure any sort of benefit reforms are going to help, anyone who has 15 kids confiscated evidently has problems that are slightly more serious than being bad with cash, no changes to welfare are going to change the sort of social and emotional deprivation that leads to these sort of issues. Possibly the issues could be better solved with sheltered housing for the parent?
I think valuing the poor as a sub value race with lesser rights is and a drain on society can be classed as a right wing view ..
Although state dictated birth control has been advocated by both ends of the political spectrum.
While I don't have any sort of direct solution for this I am not sure any sort of benefit reforms are going to help, anyone who has 15 kids confiscated evidently has problems that are slightly more serious than being bad with cash, no changes to welfare are going to change the sort of social and emotional deprivation that leads to these sort of issues. Possibly the issues could be better solved with sheltered housing for the parent?
In reply to Tall Clare:
+1
Which is so far as I can tell also what the researchers who did this research are suggesting. The interesting thing is the urgency, how little time there is between losing the first child to the courts and losing the next in which to intervene and break the cycle.
All very sad and destructive for those caught up in it.
jk
> ...I think unpicking the underlying issues (e.g. the drug abuse) and educating people about the situation they're in make more sense and are likely to have more success.
+1
Which is so far as I can tell also what the researchers who did this research are suggesting. The interesting thing is the urgency, how little time there is between losing the first child to the courts and losing the next in which to intervene and break the cycle.
All very sad and destructive for those caught up in it.
jk
In reply to Dispater:
I've worked with some mothers who after having children taken into care have been "persuaded" to have the contraceptive implant. They have later ripped it out of their arm.
I've also worked with some who after having 5 children removed, have turned their life around and been able to keep the sixth.
I've worked with some mothers who after having children taken into care have been "persuaded" to have the contraceptive implant. They have later ripped it out of their arm.
I've also worked with some who after having 5 children removed, have turned their life around and been able to keep the sixth.
In reply to Dispater:
Perhaps we should ask these women what drives them to act as they do? Then look for an answer.
The implication here is that they are too thick (pissed or stoned) to have any rational thoughts, but there must be something very odd happening in their brains for them to continue producing child after child and having them taken away. Surely these actions are severely traumatic to the mothers,so why do they continue? Do they even consider the kids futures?
Can't tackle the problem without knowing what causes it, is it simply for more benefits to buy more drugs, or abuse from dominant partner (pimp?), or a continuation of their upbringing?
Dunno the answer, but nobody benefits from the situation, unless the mothers/fathers think they do - which takes us back to Why?
Perhaps we should ask these women what drives them to act as they do? Then look for an answer.
The implication here is that they are too thick (pissed or stoned) to have any rational thoughts, but there must be something very odd happening in their brains for them to continue producing child after child and having them taken away. Surely these actions are severely traumatic to the mothers,so why do they continue? Do they even consider the kids futures?
Can't tackle the problem without knowing what causes it, is it simply for more benefits to buy more drugs, or abuse from dominant partner (pimp?), or a continuation of their upbringing?
Dunno the answer, but nobody benefits from the situation, unless the mothers/fathers think they do - which takes us back to Why?
In reply to Moley:
Perhaps we should ask these women what drives them to act as they do? Then look for an answer.
Maybe they're half devout Catholics.
Don't use contraception, but don't mind sex out of wedlock...
Perhaps we should ask these women what drives them to act as they do? Then look for an answer.
Maybe they're half devout Catholics.
Don't use contraception, but don't mind sex out of wedlock...
In reply to Moley:
I don't know the figues but I think it says a lot that many of these children are not placed with extended family members. Broken families, children having children, children leaving care having children.... The cycle goes on.
I don't know the figues but I think it says a lot that many of these children are not placed with extended family members. Broken families, children having children, children leaving care having children.... The cycle goes on.
No need to be nasty and have tests. Just a jab of some sort for us blokes when we hit our teens and then when we want children we nip down the chemist and there next to the paracetamol is the on pill for babies. Save our better halves all the bother.
Cheers
Toby
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Reach>Talent:
I'm not so sure.. I think control has been, class controlled?
Chinese birth rate policy wasn't class related was it? I think thats different to passing exams for the right to have kids..
I'm not so sure.. I think control has been, class controlled?
Chinese birth rate policy wasn't class related was it? I think thats different to passing exams for the right to have kids..
In reply to Dispater:
Im thinking some kind of Matrix type situation is called for where the offspring of these types are turned into batteries of some type which power my widescreen TV a d iPad
Im thinking some kind of Matrix type situation is called for where the offspring of these types are turned into batteries of some type which power my widescreen TV a d iPad
In reply to IainRUK:
Wow. In every colour of the rainbow.
> I'm not so sure.. I think control has been, class controlled?
> Chinese birth rate policy wasn't class related was it? I think thats different to passing exams for the right to have kids..
Wow. In every colour of the rainbow.
In reply to Lusk:
I guess but with no test or control if you decide you want some sprogs, you just take another pill. Teenage pregnancies would vanish unless chosen.
Cheers
Toby
I guess but with no test or control if you decide you want some sprogs, you just take another pill. Teenage pregnancies would vanish unless chosen.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Toby_W:
Yeah compliance will be high..
16 year old girl: "Have you taken the pill''
16 year old lad: "err yeah sure"
Yeah compliance will be high..
16 year old girl: "Have you taken the pill''
16 year old lad: "err yeah sure"
In reply to Dispater:
If you take a woman's new born child away, what do you think the emotional / hormonal response will be?
If you just take the baby away and don't offer significant support, then there is a huge chance that they will want to fill this gap immediately.
The ideas listed in the linked article are far better thought out solutions, because they actually consider the needs of the mothers.
If you take a woman's new born child away, what do you think the emotional / hormonal response will be?
If you just take the baby away and don't offer significant support, then there is a huge chance that they will want to fill this gap immediately.
The ideas listed in the linked article are far better thought out solutions, because they actually consider the needs of the mothers.
In reply to grommet:
I think you're right there. The biggest problem is people from broken backgrounds who have never experienced a healthy relationship having children. It's not to claim benefits or even lack of contraception that's the main problem. It's people with nothing to hope for in their lives who think a child will give them something to live for and someone to love. Unfortunately, due to their background they lack the skills required to care for a child, and so the child is taken away only for them to try again.
There is no easy answer.
I think you're right there. The biggest problem is people from broken backgrounds who have never experienced a healthy relationship having children. It's not to claim benefits or even lack of contraception that's the main problem. It's people with nothing to hope for in their lives who think a child will give them something to live for and someone to love. Unfortunately, due to their background they lack the skills required to care for a child, and so the child is taken away only for them to try again.
There is no easy answer.
In reply to Hooo:
Can't argue with that.
It's true of rich folk too, but they hide their problems better.
Can't argue with that.
It's true of rich folk too, but they hide their problems better.
In reply to IainRUK:
Exactly. I'm still not pregnant, are you sure you took it, err yeah.
You get the jab at school the same time you get your bcg. If you then want to get a girl pregnant you have to pop down the chemist and the pills to reverse the jab are next to the cough medicine. For the very example you give unwanted pregnancies would be a thing of the past.
Cheers
Toby
Fantasy, I know.
Exactly. I'm still not pregnant, are you sure you took it, err yeah.
You get the jab at school the same time you get your bcg. If you then want to get a girl pregnant you have to pop down the chemist and the pills to reverse the jab are next to the cough medicine. For the very example you give unwanted pregnancies would be a thing of the past.
Cheers
Toby
Fantasy, I know.
In reply to stevieb:
In the cases I've worked with they don't just take the baby away. There is nothing that surprises me with what I see every day, except, the number of people who are there to support parents trying to keep a family together, working hard and working incredibly long hours, for weeks, months and years. Support is there, in short supply and under funded and there could always be more, but some choose not to accept it.
As an aside I wonder if the job "drug abuse midwife" existed a generation ago.
In the cases I've worked with they don't just take the baby away. There is nothing that surprises me with what I see every day, except, the number of people who are there to support parents trying to keep a family together, working hard and working incredibly long hours, for weeks, months and years. Support is there, in short supply and under funded and there could always be more, but some choose not to accept it.
As an aside I wonder if the job "drug abuse midwife" existed a generation ago.
In reply to Hooo:
So true.
I've worked supporting these parents and you have got it spot on.
We should be looking at providing 24 hour care to parents and babies in these extreme cases but its too expensive even though prevention would probably be cheaper in the long term.
However I have at times been less sympathetic. It can be very frustrating when you put in help and support and they still dont look after the baby.
So true.
I've worked supporting these parents and you have got it spot on.
We should be looking at providing 24 hour care to parents and babies in these extreme cases but its too expensive even though prevention would probably be cheaper in the long term.
However I have at times been less sympathetic. It can be very frustrating when you put in help and support and they still dont look after the baby.
In reply to Dispater:
[sarcasm] Yes, but have you seen all the rich people who avoid taxes? Shouldn't they be punished first?[/sarcasm]
> Fifteen children from the same mother taken into care, FFS!
[sarcasm] Yes, but have you seen all the rich people who avoid taxes? Shouldn't they be punished first?[/sarcasm]
In reply to grommet:
Yeah, I'm not really questioning the support staff, as I said the article highlights good ways to help the parents.
What I am questioning is the belief that when the parents have their baby taken away, that trying to have another baby is somehow an unexpected decision
Yeah, I'm not really questioning the support staff, as I said the article highlights good ways to help the parents.
What I am questioning is the belief that when the parents have their baby taken away, that trying to have another baby is somehow an unexpected decision
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