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Can anyone recommend from their own experience what works best for them when using a gym along side climbing?
I'm mainly hoping to get into good cardio condition, as well as improve core strength, so thought I'd join a local gym. I was thinking rowing, free weights, maybe cross trainer. What do you think?
Post edited at 11:52
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Lots of leg raises and exercise ball as well as planking and static exercise will help with core.
Latly I have found it better to work on weaknesses. Most climbers have a good level of strengh on pulling exercises but are a bit rubbish with pushing. Eg bench press and shoulder press. So go on all the machines see what you struggle with and work on them. Once your body is well balanced start adding in more climbing specific exercises.
This also means you get a rest for your climbing muscles when your at the gym.
Lots of leg raises and exercise ball as well as planking and static exercise will help with core.
Latly I have found it better to work on weaknesses. Most climbers have a good level of strengh on pulling exercises but are a bit rubbish with pushing. Eg bench press and shoulder press. So go on all the machines see what you struggle with and work on them. Once your body is well balanced start adding in more climbing specific exercises.
This also means you get a rest for your climbing muscles when your at the gym.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Your question is a bit unclear, are you looking at gym training to improve your climbing or do you have other main goals.
To complement climbing, I would also recommend antagonistic muscle training (dips, pushups etc, also some antagonistic forearm exercises) and core work. Antagonistic training will enable you to train/climb harder without getting injured.
Not sure what your level is and body type - I know it's debateable and many will disagree but if you can't comfortably do 5-6 pull ups I would also add pull ups. Not that they can alone improve your climbing and they are definitely not necessary but if you climb infrequently and don't have at least a base strength level to start off with, it'll take longer to build strength from climbing alone. If you climb 2+ times a week I wouldn't bother with pull ups....
Cardio in itself doesn't really help that much with climbing if you already have a half decent fitness level so unless you want to get generally fitter I would spend ages on it. If you have extra weight to lose then it migh be a good idea to do cardio though...
Interested to see other answers too as I am thinking of doing some gym sessions too. My plan was to do a bit of cardio, lots of core work and then some weight training for overall strength/conditioning (preferably compound exercises where possible).
Your question is a bit unclear, are you looking at gym training to improve your climbing or do you have other main goals.
To complement climbing, I would also recommend antagonistic muscle training (dips, pushups etc, also some antagonistic forearm exercises) and core work. Antagonistic training will enable you to train/climb harder without getting injured.
Not sure what your level is and body type - I know it's debateable and many will disagree but if you can't comfortably do 5-6 pull ups I would also add pull ups. Not that they can alone improve your climbing and they are definitely not necessary but if you climb infrequently and don't have at least a base strength level to start off with, it'll take longer to build strength from climbing alone. If you climb 2+ times a week I wouldn't bother with pull ups....
Cardio in itself doesn't really help that much with climbing if you already have a half decent fitness level so unless you want to get generally fitter I would spend ages on it. If you have extra weight to lose then it migh be a good idea to do cardio though...
Interested to see other answers too as I am thinking of doing some gym sessions too. My plan was to do a bit of cardio, lots of core work and then some weight training for overall strength/conditioning (preferably compound exercises where possible).
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Thanks guys, interesting. Sorry for being vague, I'm hoping to improve fitness and strength for trad and alpine climbing, as well as general indoor training. I'm currently bouldering once or twice a week indoors, occasionally indoor routes too but the bouldering wall is closer to home.
Thanks guys, interesting. Sorry for being vague, I'm hoping to improve fitness and strength for trad and alpine climbing, as well as general indoor training. I'm currently bouldering once or twice a week indoors, occasionally indoor routes too but the bouldering wall is closer to home.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
I mainly do indoors bouldering so better take advice from someone else on trad/alpine climbing. I think if you boulder twice a week you should build up strength just from bouldering so pull ups won't add much. I guess it also depends whether strength is truly your limiting factor, maybe finger strength but back strength is not usually a serious issue. Core on the other hand...
I mainly do indoors bouldering so better take advice from someone else on trad/alpine climbing. I think if you boulder twice a week you should build up strength just from bouldering so pull ups won't add much. I guess it also depends whether strength is truly your limiting factor, maybe finger strength but back strength is not usually a serious issue. Core on the other hand...
In reply to John Newbiggin:
As your a (fairly) young male gross muscle strength wont be a limiting factor to your climbing. the consensus from most elite climbers (I believe, but im sure there are exceptions) is to avoid the gym for climbing training. personally I use the gym because I enjoy the gym, plus I train for other sports, climbing is just a hobby.
If you want to get alp-fit the best thing you can do is fill a rucksack with about 20kg and go and walk up some local hills, or if you don't have hills then find some steps. nothing in the gym will really replicate it. if you run/row/cycle allot all you are doing is training to run/row/cycle. again as you are fairly young and already a climber im sure your base level of CV health is adequate, fitness is specific, just because you can run 10k in a certain time, doesn't mean you can walk 1000m up a hill with a heavy pack on and be ready to climb when you reach the top.
so to sum up, if you want to go to the gym then go to the gym and do what you enjoy/feel that works for you. if you want to train for climbing then climb, if you want to train for the alps then walk.
(to agree with some of the previous posts, working your antagonists in the gym will benefit your climbing in a round about way)
As your a (fairly) young male gross muscle strength wont be a limiting factor to your climbing. the consensus from most elite climbers (I believe, but im sure there are exceptions) is to avoid the gym for climbing training. personally I use the gym because I enjoy the gym, plus I train for other sports, climbing is just a hobby.
If you want to get alp-fit the best thing you can do is fill a rucksack with about 20kg and go and walk up some local hills, or if you don't have hills then find some steps. nothing in the gym will really replicate it. if you run/row/cycle allot all you are doing is training to run/row/cycle. again as you are fairly young and already a climber im sure your base level of CV health is adequate, fitness is specific, just because you can run 10k in a certain time, doesn't mean you can walk 1000m up a hill with a heavy pack on and be ready to climb when you reach the top.
so to sum up, if you want to go to the gym then go to the gym and do what you enjoy/feel that works for you. if you want to train for climbing then climb, if you want to train for the alps then walk.
(to agree with some of the previous posts, working your antagonists in the gym will benefit your climbing in a round about way)
In reply to Webster:
Cheers, I know it's no substitute for big mountain days and regular climbing sessions, but it's the more affordable option at present with it being £20 a month for gym membership or god knows how much on trains to get out to places.
I'm already fairly fit, but the antagonists work sounds good, and I think with rowing or the stepper being low impact it will at least improve my cardiovascular fitness (and burn off some flab).
Cheers, I know it's no substitute for big mountain days and regular climbing sessions, but it's the more affordable option at present with it being £20 a month for gym membership or god knows how much on trains to get out to places.
I'm already fairly fit, but the antagonists work sounds good, and I think with rowing or the stepper being low impact it will at least improve my cardiovascular fitness (and burn off some flab).
In reply to Webster:
ditto what Webster said, BUT I would tempted if you're climbing up hills with weight, to fill your rucksack with water (!) & walk up, then dump the water before the descent (if you want your knees to last).
ditto what Webster said, BUT I would tempted if you're climbing up hills with weight, to fill your rucksack with water (!) & walk up, then dump the water before the descent (if you want your knees to last).
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Insanity. It's all plyometric work outs, no gym fees, you can buy it straight out which is a bit expensive but you can probably find it to download somewhere, legally of course!!
It's all about cardio and core workouts and is the best work out I've ever had! I've just set up a tv and DVD player in the garage and that's more than enough!
Insanity. It's all plyometric work outs, no gym fees, you can buy it straight out which is a bit expensive but you can probably find it to download somewhere, legally of course!!
It's all about cardio and core workouts and is the best work out I've ever had! I've just set up a tv and DVD player in the garage and that's more than enough!
In reply to Richt79:
How do you know?
> Insanity.
> It's all about cardio and core workouts and is the best work out I've ever had!
How do you know?
In reply to John Newbiggin:
If you want to get better at climbing, then use all of your energy to go climbing (and running up hills if it's alpine climbing you're after). Lifting weights in a gym will make you good at lifting weights in a gym.
If you want to get better at climbing, then use all of your energy to go climbing (and running up hills if it's alpine climbing you're after). Lifting weights in a gym will make you good at lifting weights in a gym.
In reply to nw:
Because of all the workouts I have had, i believe it is the best one I've done, what's so difficult to understand?
Because of all the workouts I have had, i believe it is the best one I've done, what's so difficult to understand?
In reply to Richt79:
Oh, 'you believe'. Based on what? How sweaty and sore it makes you feel? How tough it is to complete? Or any objective metric?
Insanity etc give you that 'work out' feeling but don't lead to measurable long term gains for most people. It's just a thrashing.
Oh, 'you believe'. Based on what? How sweaty and sore it makes you feel? How tough it is to complete? Or any objective metric?
Insanity etc give you that 'work out' feeling but don't lead to measurable long term gains for most people. It's just a thrashing.
In reply to nw:
Because after 10 years being beasted in the military I have felt better and fitter after doing Insanity than I ever did back then. It has helped me shed excess weight from enjoying civilian life too much and so on. So objectively and metrically I have a great deal to base my belief that it is the best workout I have ever done! Who are you, the opinion police? I never said it was the best workout for other people, if you read my post I said it was the best one I've ever done. The OP asked for cardio suggestions and I supplied one based on my opinion. Instead of being a douche bag you could merely have stated that Insanity didn't work for you or you believe it's just a thrashing, that would be your opinion.
Because after 10 years being beasted in the military I have felt better and fitter after doing Insanity than I ever did back then. It has helped me shed excess weight from enjoying civilian life too much and so on. So objectively and metrically I have a great deal to base my belief that it is the best workout I have ever done! Who are you, the opinion police? I never said it was the best workout for other people, if you read my post I said it was the best one I've ever done. The OP asked for cardio suggestions and I supplied one based on my opinion. Instead of being a douche bag you could merely have stated that Insanity didn't work for you or you believe it's just a thrashing, that would be your opinion.
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In reply to Richt79:
Not objective.
> Because after 10 years being beasted in the military I have felt better and fitter after doing
Not objective.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
As you can see, everyone on the internet is an expert and offers informed, qualified experience.
Back to your question, what are your objectives? Do you want a gym routine that complements your climbing? What kind of climbing do you want to improve at (bouldering, routes - trad/sport, overhanging/slab), or by climbing do you mean hard hillwalking?
Or is your climbing training going well and you are looking for exercises that will offer some degree of prehabilitation and target complementary muscles? You say you want to improve 'cardio', but there are many ways to do this (and there is no 'discrete' cardio energy system, they all overlap), and what is your end goal? Do you propose to use this cardio for a winter ascent of the Ben or for general health?
As for core training, deadlifting and back squats work your core VERY effectively, as do body levers and planches. Which of these approaches would be most useful again comes back to your climbing goals and current training. If you are doing a lot of overhanging stuff then front/back levers may interfere with your recovery from climbing.
If you are not specific with your question, you'll get incompatible advice from the Internet, and then a fight will break out between each of us who think we are 'right'.
I know this might not be the response you are after but I genuinely HTHs as there are some knowledgeable people on this site.
One more thing - training that leaves you exhausted is not necessarily training that will leave you closer to your training goals.
> Can anyone recommend from their own experience what works best for them when using a gym along side climbing?
> I'm mainly hoping to get into good cardio condition, as well as improve core strength, so thought I'd join a local gym. I was thinking rowing, free weights, maybe cross trainer. What do you think?
As you can see, everyone on the internet is an expert and offers informed, qualified experience.
Back to your question, what are your objectives? Do you want a gym routine that complements your climbing? What kind of climbing do you want to improve at (bouldering, routes - trad/sport, overhanging/slab), or by climbing do you mean hard hillwalking?
Or is your climbing training going well and you are looking for exercises that will offer some degree of prehabilitation and target complementary muscles? You say you want to improve 'cardio', but there are many ways to do this (and there is no 'discrete' cardio energy system, they all overlap), and what is your end goal? Do you propose to use this cardio for a winter ascent of the Ben or for general health?
As for core training, deadlifting and back squats work your core VERY effectively, as do body levers and planches. Which of these approaches would be most useful again comes back to your climbing goals and current training. If you are doing a lot of overhanging stuff then front/back levers may interfere with your recovery from climbing.
If you are not specific with your question, you'll get incompatible advice from the Internet, and then a fight will break out between each of us who think we are 'right'.
I know this might not be the response you are after but I genuinely HTHs as there are some knowledgeable people on this site.
One more thing - training that leaves you exhausted is not necessarily training that will leave you closer to your training goals.
Post edited at 16:42
In reply to Shani:
My main goals are improved general fitness, and exercise that will compliment trad climbing as well as alpine/mountaineering in the long run. I was under the impression that improved cardiovascular fitness would be ideal for when working hard on hills.
To those saying get out on the hill and/or don't join a gym - I live in Manchester city centre and work on minimum wage, study around full time job and do not own a car. It is far cheaper and convenient for me to go the the gym before/after work or days off. So, to be frank, I am using the gym as a compromise of not being able to get out on the hills every weekend so that when I do get the odd chance to get out I will not be panting my arse off or weak
So, I'm bouldering at Rock Over once or twice a week, and all I really want to know would be the closest gym exercises/equipment I should use to emulate mountain days as closely as possible - as well as compliment climbing performance and improve fitness.
Also, Insanity sounds interesting but probably wouldn't be ideal as I live in apartments and don't have a garage
Cheers for all the suggestions so far!
My main goals are improved general fitness, and exercise that will compliment trad climbing as well as alpine/mountaineering in the long run. I was under the impression that improved cardiovascular fitness would be ideal for when working hard on hills.
To those saying get out on the hill and/or don't join a gym - I live in Manchester city centre and work on minimum wage, study around full time job and do not own a car. It is far cheaper and convenient for me to go the the gym before/after work or days off. So, to be frank, I am using the gym as a compromise of not being able to get out on the hills every weekend so that when I do get the odd chance to get out I will not be panting my arse off or weak
So, I'm bouldering at Rock Over once or twice a week, and all I really want to know would be the closest gym exercises/equipment I should use to emulate mountain days as closely as possible - as well as compliment climbing performance and improve fitness.
Also, Insanity sounds interesting but probably wouldn't be ideal as I live in apartments and don't have a garage
Cheers for all the suggestions so far!
In reply to nw:
Wow, you've identified my opinion which of course is by it's very nature not objective. I have commented that I have the experience of trying many different work outs and have formed an informed opinion that of all those work outs I found insanity the best for me. Do you want my vital statistics? Check out several reviews from a simple search, however they are all based on people's opinions so I guess they aren't objective either.
http://www.lifestyleupdated.com/insanity-workout-review/
http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/fitness-review-beach-body-in...
http://workouttrends.com/insanity-workout-review
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/743549-does-insanity-workout-really...
So far you haven't backed up any of your opinions so I don't know quite why you are attempting to be so condescending, are you a personal trainer being put out of business? Please provide the source for your assertion that it doesn't give measurable long term gains for most people?
You obviously have issues with Insanity but explain to me then why there are designated insanity classes based at gym's, why is it so popular amongst my fellow service personnel (and ex service) why is there designated areas for Insanity out in Bastion, Kandahar etc if it is merely a thrashing?
Wow, you've identified my opinion which of course is by it's very nature not objective. I have commented that I have the experience of trying many different work outs and have formed an informed opinion that of all those work outs I found insanity the best for me. Do you want my vital statistics? Check out several reviews from a simple search, however they are all based on people's opinions so I guess they aren't objective either.
http://www.lifestyleupdated.com/insanity-workout-review/
http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/fitness-review-beach-body-in...
http://workouttrends.com/insanity-workout-review
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/743549-does-insanity-workout-really...
So far you haven't backed up any of your opinions so I don't know quite why you are attempting to be so condescending, are you a personal trainer being put out of business? Please provide the source for your assertion that it doesn't give measurable long term gains for most people?
You obviously have issues with Insanity but explain to me then why there are designated insanity classes based at gym's, why is it so popular amongst my fellow service personnel (and ex service) why is there designated areas for Insanity out in Bastion, Kandahar etc if it is merely a thrashing?
In reply to John Newbiggin:
John, the only reason I do it in the garage is I don't want to get sweat everywhere! There is a gym or two actually in Manchester city centre that do Insanity classes that may be worth a try, you could take a look at a class and see if it's for you at least. I think one of them is in the gym opposite the Midland hotel. It definitely isn't for everyone and is best if you have a core level of fitness to start.
John, the only reason I do it in the garage is I don't want to get sweat everywhere! There is a gym or two actually in Manchester city centre that do Insanity classes that may be worth a try, you could take a look at a class and see if it's for you at least. I think one of them is in the gym opposite the Midland hotel. It definitely isn't for everyone and is best if you have a core level of fitness to start.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
I just watched the insanity promo as i'd never heard of it. I can see the appeal for some people. It looks like a hyped up core session which many climbers use anyway - i certainly spotted many of the excercises i do. If you had a mat and did some basic core excercises plank/swimming/superman etc (see articles on ukc) and some basic finger board work including pull ups and frenchies plus a regular run or bike ride should get climbing and alpine gains. In my opinion a gym membership is not helpful to get good at climbing unless that really is the only place you can excercise and then probably best to focus on the cardio machines and core excercises. A pass to the climbing wall especially as many now have workout rooms would be far better as you could do short quality sessions.
I just watched the insanity promo as i'd never heard of it. I can see the appeal for some people. It looks like a hyped up core session which many climbers use anyway - i certainly spotted many of the excercises i do. If you had a mat and did some basic core excercises plank/swimming/superman etc (see articles on ukc) and some basic finger board work including pull ups and frenchies plus a regular run or bike ride should get climbing and alpine gains. In my opinion a gym membership is not helpful to get good at climbing unless that really is the only place you can excercise and then probably best to focus on the cardio machines and core excercises. A pass to the climbing wall especially as many now have workout rooms would be far better as you could do short quality sessions.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Alpine.... Lots of running up and down hills to get your lungs and heart working at full capacity and to strengthen the legs. Running downhill is equally important as running up because it strengthens the stabilizer muscles and your quadriceps. Strong quadriceps are what allow you to take long strong strides.
Saying that, you need to learn how to correctly run downhill or you could weaken or hurt your knees. I could give you some tips but its better you get an expert to give you a lesson in how to do this properly. Also, take it slow and built up slowly.
Alpine.... Lots of running up and down hills to get your lungs and heart working at full capacity and to strengthen the legs. Running downhill is equally important as running up because it strengthens the stabilizer muscles and your quadriceps. Strong quadriceps are what allow you to take long strong strides.
Saying that, you need to learn how to correctly run downhill or you could weaken or hurt your knees. I could give you some tips but its better you get an expert to give you a lesson in how to do this properly. Also, take it slow and built up slowly.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
I'm in a similar situation at the moment and I've been going to the gym 2 or 3 days a week during lunchbreaks doing lots of jogging on the treadmill with the angle ramped up, stair climber thingy (slow and every other step it pretty hard work!), and heaps of pliometrics and core stuff. Also a lot of deadlifts, squats, kettlebell stuff (which is surprisingly fun!). I have recently got a bit or 2x4 mounted above a door at home for locked off hangs, leg raises, pull ups which I add to a sideplank+pushup+one leg squatty thingys+situps workout in the evenings.
It seems to work because I've spent heaps of weekends in the Sierras doing pretty big Alpine days. But I've bulked up a lot more than I would like. It will be hard getting back into trad when I get back to the UK I think.
I'm not really excited about going to the gym but I'm trying to be goal oriented!
I'm in a similar situation at the moment and I've been going to the gym 2 or 3 days a week during lunchbreaks doing lots of jogging on the treadmill with the angle ramped up, stair climber thingy (slow and every other step it pretty hard work!), and heaps of pliometrics and core stuff. Also a lot of deadlifts, squats, kettlebell stuff (which is surprisingly fun!). I have recently got a bit or 2x4 mounted above a door at home for locked off hangs, leg raises, pull ups which I add to a sideplank+pushup+one leg squatty thingys+situps workout in the evenings.
It seems to work because I've spent heaps of weekends in the Sierras doing pretty big Alpine days. But I've bulked up a lot more than I would like. It will be hard getting back into trad when I get back to the UK I think.
I'm not really excited about going to the gym but I'm trying to be goal oriented!
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Whilst working away from home I done P90X and climbed and it was of great benifit to my climbing. I'd also agree that Insanity is great for geting in shape.
Whilst working away from home I done P90X and climbed and it was of great benifit to my climbing. I'd also agree that Insanity is great for geting in shape.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
+1 for Shani's advice. You're best speaking to a recommended strength and conditioning coach (have a look at UKSCA: http://www.uksca.org.uk/uksca/ ), who can give you an initial assessment and programme. For long-term athletic strength gains, this would probably be based around barbell exercises: deadlift, squat, bench press, plus weighted pull-ups and lighter core work.
The problem with mass-market brands like insanity, P90x, zumba, crossfit, bodypump, is that they are not tailored to your individual goals. If you don't have specific goals, and just want 'to be fit for anything' then that's fine, they suit people who just want to turn up, do a work out and feel tired, without committing to an individual plan. After initial gains these can lead to a plateau, loss of interest and/or injury.
If you can be more specific eg you want to increase your max deadlift by 30%, or reduce your 5k run time by 10%, or stomp to the top of your favourite peak, carrying 20kg, in 20% less time!? then your coach can give you a specific programme, and you can actually objectively measure whether you are progressing towards that goal.
I'd save the gym for strength work, and do cardio outside, in the weeks before your next trip, where it's free of charge to go for a run/walk/cycle, and a lot more interesting.
+1 for Shani's advice. You're best speaking to a recommended strength and conditioning coach (have a look at UKSCA: http://www.uksca.org.uk/uksca/ ), who can give you an initial assessment and programme. For long-term athletic strength gains, this would probably be based around barbell exercises: deadlift, squat, bench press, plus weighted pull-ups and lighter core work.
The problem with mass-market brands like insanity, P90x, zumba, crossfit, bodypump, is that they are not tailored to your individual goals. If you don't have specific goals, and just want 'to be fit for anything' then that's fine, they suit people who just want to turn up, do a work out and feel tired, without committing to an individual plan. After initial gains these can lead to a plateau, loss of interest and/or injury.
If you can be more specific eg you want to increase your max deadlift by 30%, or reduce your 5k run time by 10%, or stomp to the top of your favourite peak, carrying 20kg, in 20% less time!? then your coach can give you a specific programme, and you can actually objectively measure whether you are progressing towards that goal.
I'd save the gym for strength work, and do cardio outside, in the weeks before your next trip, where it's free of charge to go for a run/walk/cycle, and a lot more interesting.
In reply to Richt79:
You'll have to forgive nw, who's being a little harsh with you, but in answer to this - lots of people like to turn up and be told how to work out, without thinking for themselves. Lots of squaddies like being thrashed - it's why we joined . But being thrashed 4x per week for years doesn't necessarily equate to long-term gains - it may be little more than maintaining strength and burning calories. Unless you focus on measuring your performance level before the programme and then again afterwards, you can't be objective on what that programme has done for you, aside from just enjoying it, which is also fine.
> You obviously have issues with Insanity but explain to me then why there are designated insanity classes based at gym's, why is it so popular amongst my fellow service personnel (and ex service) why is there designated areas for Insanity out in Bastion, Kandahar etc if it is merely a thrashing?
You'll have to forgive nw, who's being a little harsh with you, but in answer to this - lots of people like to turn up and be told how to work out, without thinking for themselves. Lots of squaddies like being thrashed - it's why we joined . But being thrashed 4x per week for years doesn't necessarily equate to long-term gains - it may be little more than maintaining strength and burning calories. Unless you focus on measuring your performance level before the programme and then again afterwards, you can't be objective on what that programme has done for you, aside from just enjoying it, which is also fine.
In reply to switch:
Good points.
More generally, people who start evangelising on their first or second posts also arouse curiosity about their motives.
To the OP:
You lead VS and follow HVS. It's highly unlikely that core strength and cardio. fitness are your limiting factors. If you want to get better than leading VS, a gym is not going to help and more likely distract. You say you are short on time and money. Use the time and money spent going to the gym to do something more specific: a lead wall or, better still, climbing outside. One day outside will help you more than 20 sessions in the gym. There is no short cut.
Specific aerobic training and some strength work can have benefits for Alpine climbing but you don't need to go to a gym to train these.
Good points.
More generally, people who start evangelising on their first or second posts also arouse curiosity about their motives.
To the OP:
You lead VS and follow HVS. It's highly unlikely that core strength and cardio. fitness are your limiting factors. If you want to get better than leading VS, a gym is not going to help and more likely distract. You say you are short on time and money. Use the time and money spent going to the gym to do something more specific: a lead wall or, better still, climbing outside. One day outside will help you more than 20 sessions in the gym. There is no short cut.
Specific aerobic training and some strength work can have benefits for Alpine climbing but you don't need to go to a gym to train these.
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In reply to flaneur:
Sorry, are you saying I was evangelising?
The OP asked for cardio recommendations on a budget and I gave my opinion on cardio training that worked for me, I don't really see what the problem is with that? It also doesn't justify the patronising attitude of NW who seems to think I'm incapable of independent thought and making a decision based on my personal experiences.
Sorry, are you saying I was evangelising?
The OP asked for cardio recommendations on a budget and I gave my opinion on cardio training that worked for me, I don't really see what the problem is with that? It also doesn't justify the patronising attitude of NW who seems to think I'm incapable of independent thought and making a decision based on my personal experiences.
In reply to flaneur:
I agree there's no short-cut, I'm more than aware of this, in an ideal world I'd climb outside a couple of times a week. However I don't work Mon-Friday, and also don't regularly have the same days off as other potential climbing partners. A day out climbing isn't worth much without a belay partner
I know I can do aerobic training outside of the gym, but I wasn't asking that. Again, ideally trail-running or mountain hikes would be perfect, but I live in Salford, not Chamonix. Yes I can get the train to the Peak or Snowdonia, but 1 or 2 trips would cost more time and money than 1 month gym fee where I can go everyday if I needed! I'm merely trying to make the best compromise of time, money and improving fitness.
So far the first response has been the most useful, but all the input is good. To be clear, I AM using the gym along side climbing. If you have done so too, tell me what you found most beneficial or useful. Suggesting I don't go to the gym and spend extra time/money getting out to do training isn't really what I was asking for, and unfortunately for me, isn't a routine option I can choose for the near future. If I eventually relocate to somewhere closer to crags/peaks then that'd be a totally different story
I agree there's no short-cut, I'm more than aware of this, in an ideal world I'd climb outside a couple of times a week. However I don't work Mon-Friday, and also don't regularly have the same days off as other potential climbing partners. A day out climbing isn't worth much without a belay partner
I know I can do aerobic training outside of the gym, but I wasn't asking that. Again, ideally trail-running or mountain hikes would be perfect, but I live in Salford, not Chamonix. Yes I can get the train to the Peak or Snowdonia, but 1 or 2 trips would cost more time and money than 1 month gym fee where I can go everyday if I needed! I'm merely trying to make the best compromise of time, money and improving fitness.
So far the first response has been the most useful, but all the input is good. To be clear, I AM using the gym along side climbing. If you have done so too, tell me what you found most beneficial or useful. Suggesting I don't go to the gym and spend extra time/money getting out to do training isn't really what I was asking for, and unfortunately for me, isn't a routine option I can choose for the near future. If I eventually relocate to somewhere closer to crags/peaks then that'd be a totally different story
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Surely doing a workout called "Insanity" must be completely insane! i'd rather do a workout called "Highly Benificial"
Surely doing a workout called "Insanity" must be completely insane! i'd rather do a workout called "Highly Benificial"
In reply to mcphillipsa391:
By that logic playing "football" would involve being kicked in the testicles a lot. Kind of like watching England play!
By that logic playing "football" would involve being kicked in the testicles a lot. Kind of like watching England play!
Post edited at 15:53
In reply to John Newbiggin:
You live in Salford! The Peak is right next door. There are probably a bazillion retired blokes who would love to climb with you midweek.
Come visit us in Cambridge and start telling us about how far you are from a crag...
You live in Salford! The Peak is right next door. There are probably a bazillion retired blokes who would love to climb with you midweek.
Come visit us in Cambridge and start telling us about how far you are from a crag...
In reply to nclarey:
Haha yeah yeah, you have it bad down there, but it's still getting on for £10-20 a pop getting out and back by train I might have to start 'networking' on the partners forums to scrounge lifts and partners!
Haha yeah yeah, you have it bad down there, but it's still getting on for £10-20 a pop getting out and back by train I might have to start 'networking' on the partners forums to scrounge lifts and partners!
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Just to add to the general confusion - forgot to mention earlier, if you'll be spending some non-climbing time working out, it might be worth considering spending some time to improve your active flexibility.
Just to add to the general confusion - forgot to mention earlier, if you'll be spending some non-climbing time working out, it might be worth considering spending some time to improve your active flexibility.
In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:
Can i ask what you get from swimming that helps with climbing is it more than genreal fitness.
Can i ask what you get from swimming that helps with climbing is it more than genreal fitness.
In reply to kev74:
Supposedly strong shoulders and back but I doubt it helps much... I know it's anecdotal evidence but I just took a break from climbing for a month and swam twice every day during that month pretty much and when I tried climbing again the other day I was completely rubbish lol
Supposedly strong shoulders and back but I doubt it helps much... I know it's anecdotal evidence but I just took a break from climbing for a month and swam twice every day during that month pretty much and when I tried climbing again the other day I was completely rubbish lol
In reply to John Newbiggin:
2 mid week climbing wall sessions
3 mid week runs (intervals, tempo, long slow distance)
Weekend spent rock climbing or load carries up hills (start at 30lb and build up to 100lb+)
Closer you get to your alpint trip, increase the frequency of your load carries.
Crossfit is better than a standard Gym, but is not sufficient by itself.
2 mid week climbing wall sessions
3 mid week runs (intervals, tempo, long slow distance)
Weekend spent rock climbing or load carries up hills (start at 30lb and build up to 100lb+)
Closer you get to your alpint trip, increase the frequency of your load carries.
Crossfit is better than a standard Gym, but is not sufficient by itself.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Try "Conditioning for Climbers" book. It starts with basic general conditioning and moves onto more climbing specific stuff, you can tailor to your level based on answering a questionnaire at the start. I don't do as much as it recommends due to time constraints but think what I did do over winter made a difference (+ more bouldering).
Try "Conditioning for Climbers" book. It starts with basic general conditioning and moves onto more climbing specific stuff, you can tailor to your level based on answering a questionnaire at the start. I don't do as much as it recommends due to time constraints but think what I did do over winter made a difference (+ more bouldering).
In reply to John Newbiggin:
So, I live in London. If we fill a car with people then it costs us £12 - £15 each to have a day out in the Peak, which is about 140 miles further from us than it is from you in Salford. From there I'm guessing a car to the Peak must cost under a tenner in petrol. (This would be cheaper than taking the lifts in Chamonix, for sure.)
Nowadays with the internet it's easier to find midweek partners than ever before. No excuse their either.
Clearly, you need to hone your people skills and find some climbing partners. That way you'll get more time on the crags, get more crag fit and improve your climbing skills, which can't be bad.
Since you don't care about a route that would actually get you better at climbing, then I'd suggest sinking your hard-earned into some dumbells for home and a cheap old bike to ride out to the Peak on. You'll be Salford's answer to Herman Buhl in no time.
> I agree there's no short-cut, I'm more than aware of this, in an ideal world I'd climb outside a couple of times a week. However I don't work Mon-Friday, and also don't regularly have the same days off as other potential climbing partners. A day out climbing isn't worth much without a belay partner
> I know I can do aerobic training outside of the gym, but I wasn't asking that. Again, ideally trail-running or mountain hikes would be perfect, but I live in Salford, not Chamonix. Yes I can get the train to the Peak or Snowdonia, but 1 or 2 trips would cost more time and money than 1 month gym fee where I can go everyday if I needed! I'm merely trying to make the best compromise of time, money and improving fitness.
So, I live in London. If we fill a car with people then it costs us £12 - £15 each to have a day out in the Peak, which is about 140 miles further from us than it is from you in Salford. From there I'm guessing a car to the Peak must cost under a tenner in petrol. (This would be cheaper than taking the lifts in Chamonix, for sure.)
Nowadays with the internet it's easier to find midweek partners than ever before. No excuse their either.
Clearly, you need to hone your people skills and find some climbing partners. That way you'll get more time on the crags, get more crag fit and improve your climbing skills, which can't be bad.
Since you don't care about a route that would actually get you better at climbing, then I'd suggest sinking your hard-earned into some dumbells for home and a cheap old bike to ride out to the Peak on. You'll be Salford's answer to Herman Buhl in no time.
In reply to seankenny:
Actually, £12-15 each for me a couple of times a week, and the time getting out to crags/hills isn't viable at the moment due to fulltime work and pursuing a degree on my 2 days off. As mentioned earlier, it's £20 a month for the gym and it's directly next to my place of work, thus saving time and money.
Please offer advice on my original query about gym use rather than offering chastisement.
I didn't ask about a route to get 'better at climbing' or for social guidance on gathering climbing partners, but thanks nonetheless.
Actually, £12-15 each for me a couple of times a week, and the time getting out to crags/hills isn't viable at the moment due to fulltime work and pursuing a degree on my 2 days off. As mentioned earlier, it's £20 a month for the gym and it's directly next to my place of work, thus saving time and money.
Please offer advice on my original query about gym use rather than offering chastisement.
I didn't ask about a route to get 'better at climbing' or for social guidance on gathering climbing partners, but thanks nonetheless.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Back to your original question..... I have a routine to compliment climbing - mostly injury prevention as I'm a 'low grade' beginner. It (in part) amalgamates these exercise series:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=119
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6022
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/one-workout-every-climber-should-d...
Oh yeah - amd buy a rice bucket.
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/way-iron-fist
I think the rest of it is just gravy - do what you enjoy - it'll probably have little effect on your climbing unless you get BULK! And whatever you do don't get injured in the gym....
Back to your original question..... I have a routine to compliment climbing - mostly injury prevention as I'm a 'low grade' beginner. It (in part) amalgamates these exercise series:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=119
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6022
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/one-workout-every-climber-should-d...
Oh yeah - amd buy a rice bucket.
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/way-iron-fist
I think the rest of it is just gravy - do what you enjoy - it'll probably have little effect on your climbing unless you get BULK! And whatever you do don't get injured in the gym....
Post edited at 19:31
In reply to jetstream:
Thanks mate, that's useful. People keep confusing this with using a gym to get better at climbing, but what I want to do is compliment it. There's no doubt building core strength and cardiovascular fitness will benefit real climbing days and recovery! I just bought a copy of Training for the New Alpinism, so hopefully that'll be a fruitful read.
Thanks mate, that's useful. People keep confusing this with using a gym to get better at climbing, but what I want to do is compliment it. There's no doubt building core strength and cardiovascular fitness will benefit real climbing days and recovery! I just bought a copy of Training for the New Alpinism, so hopefully that'll be a fruitful read.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
If you want to climb more outside as well as the Gym, try a local climbing club for partners. We do wednesday after work every week. I work in Salford and Live in M. Mcr. www.karabiner.org - email me via this or via UKC.
If you want to climb more outside as well as the Gym, try a local climbing club for partners. We do wednesday after work every week. I work in Salford and Live in M. Mcr. www.karabiner.org - email me via this or via UKC.
In reply to stratandrew:
Have you read this thread? He's not looking for partners or to climb more outside, or indoors or climbing specefic training.. .. . sheesh!!
> (In reply to John Newbiggin)
>
> If you want to climb more outside as well as the Gym, try a local climbing club for partners. We do wednesday after work every week. I work in Salford and Live in M. Mcr. www.karabiner.org - email me via this or via UKC.
>
> If you want to climb more outside as well as the Gym, try a local climbing club for partners. We do wednesday after work every week. I work in Salford and Live in M. Mcr. www.karabiner.org - email me via this or via UKC.
Have you read this thread? He's not looking for partners or to climb more outside, or indoors or climbing specefic training.. .. . sheesh!!
In reply to stratandrew:
Thanks, I'll probably look in to that when I've got a bit more free time, just sticking to bouldering and occasional crag day for now, along side gym stuff.
Thanks, I'll probably look in to that when I've got a bit more free time, just sticking to bouldering and occasional crag day for now, along side gym stuff.
In reply to John Newbiggin:
Well here's a thing. There's plenty of advice on using the gym for climbing: check out Steph Davis' site, or Stevie Haston's, or look at the workout from hell. But if you ask on a forum you might just get people answering in an off-kilter way cos that's what people do. We're kind of arseholes in that way.
I still think you're talking codswallop about the costs of going climbing, and if you really wanted to save money you'd get a set of weights for home and build some kind of cheapy DIY fingerboard.
Also, if you're working seven days a week (and no evenings I which you can get to the crags?!) then perhaps worth mentioning in your OP...
> Actually, £12-15 each for me a couple of times a week, and the time getting out to crags/hills isn't viable at the moment due to fulltime work and pursuing a degree on my 2 days off. As mentioned earlier, it's £20 a month for the gym and it's directly next to my place of work, thus saving time and money.
> Please offer advice on my original query about gym use rather than offering chastisement.
> I didn't ask about a route to get 'better at climbing' or for social guidance on gathering climbing partners, but thanks nonetheless.
Well here's a thing. There's plenty of advice on using the gym for climbing: check out Steph Davis' site, or Stevie Haston's, or look at the workout from hell. But if you ask on a forum you might just get people answering in an off-kilter way cos that's what people do. We're kind of arseholes in that way.
I still think you're talking codswallop about the costs of going climbing, and if you really wanted to save money you'd get a set of weights for home and build some kind of cheapy DIY fingerboard.
Also, if you're working seven days a week (and no evenings I which you can get to the crags?!) then perhaps worth mentioning in your OP...
In reply to John Newbiggin:
I've been lucky enough to be involved in a strength training and conditioning programme for climbers in Sheffield, I've also got quite a lot of prior strength training background.
The interesting thing that came out from it was that the good climbers in the group (some of which were amongst the best in the UK) were strong in most of the antagonistic and basic power exercises that weren't necessarily directly linked to climbing. So a high level of overall body strength is definitely desirable for climbing!
Based on this, have a think about the following exercises and benchmarks/ aims:
Bench Press: Body weight
Squat: Body Weight (you'd be amazed the difference a strong pair of legs makes on alpine stuff)
Deadlift: 2XBodyweight
Weighted Pullups: 50% of bodyweight
Things like shoulder presses and any kind of tricep work is worth doing to balance out all the pulling motions in climbing and avoid imbalances/ injuries. Ideally using dumbbells instead of bars to let each arm work independently.
Hanging leg raises/ front lever progressions and any core exercises based on lifting legs and engaging hip muscles are absolutely crucial. Most climbers are strong in the lower back (ie. for deadlifts) but fairly rubbish at leg raise based core exercises.
Enjoy and good luck!
I've been lucky enough to be involved in a strength training and conditioning programme for climbers in Sheffield, I've also got quite a lot of prior strength training background.
The interesting thing that came out from it was that the good climbers in the group (some of which were amongst the best in the UK) were strong in most of the antagonistic and basic power exercises that weren't necessarily directly linked to climbing. So a high level of overall body strength is definitely desirable for climbing!
Based on this, have a think about the following exercises and benchmarks/ aims:
Bench Press: Body weight
Squat: Body Weight (you'd be amazed the difference a strong pair of legs makes on alpine stuff)
Deadlift: 2XBodyweight
Weighted Pullups: 50% of bodyweight
Things like shoulder presses and any kind of tricep work is worth doing to balance out all the pulling motions in climbing and avoid imbalances/ injuries. Ideally using dumbbells instead of bars to let each arm work independently.
Hanging leg raises/ front lever progressions and any core exercises based on lifting legs and engaging hip muscles are absolutely crucial. Most climbers are strong in the lower back (ie. for deadlifts) but fairly rubbish at leg raise based core exercises.
Enjoy and good luck!
In reply to seankenny:
It's been said later in the thread, as it didn't seem relevant in the first post. I was trying to open more of a discussion for everyone rather than specifically my needs
Believe what you like, but for my personal budget and time, at the moment at least, it wouldn't be too viable until I finish my current study modules. I probably could get out to a crag in the evening at a push, however it'd be around £10-11 return each time on the train with an hour journey out to the peak, plus time walking to the crag and station - even if I had a car or lift it'd be nasty traffic leaving Manchester city centre at 6pm. Or I could go to Rock Over/Pure Gym within a 10 min walk from work/home.
I have some weights back at my folks', however if I'm using the gym anyway they have more varieties than I could possibly need. Fingerboard isn't an option as I rent and there isn't a way to install one simply where I'm living right now - that and Rock Over has one - as well as one of the bodyweight areas in Pure having climbing holds on 2 of the frames.
I'll check out Steph Davis and Stevie Haston, the idea by asking on the forum is I'll find recommendations like that. It appears only some of us are arseholes in that way :P Thanks for the advice anyway, even if I won't be taking much of it on board.
In reply to Gus:
Cheers Gus, sounds good. I'll make a note of that! I'm eagerly waiting for Training for the New Alpinism in the post to see what that recommends.
It's been said later in the thread, as it didn't seem relevant in the first post. I was trying to open more of a discussion for everyone rather than specifically my needs
Believe what you like, but for my personal budget and time, at the moment at least, it wouldn't be too viable until I finish my current study modules. I probably could get out to a crag in the evening at a push, however it'd be around £10-11 return each time on the train with an hour journey out to the peak, plus time walking to the crag and station - even if I had a car or lift it'd be nasty traffic leaving Manchester city centre at 6pm. Or I could go to Rock Over/Pure Gym within a 10 min walk from work/home.
I have some weights back at my folks', however if I'm using the gym anyway they have more varieties than I could possibly need. Fingerboard isn't an option as I rent and there isn't a way to install one simply where I'm living right now - that and Rock Over has one - as well as one of the bodyweight areas in Pure having climbing holds on 2 of the frames.
I'll check out Steph Davis and Stevie Haston, the idea by asking on the forum is I'll find recommendations like that. It appears only some of us are arseholes in that way :P Thanks for the advice anyway, even if I won't be taking much of it on board.
In reply to Gus:
Cheers Gus, sounds good. I'll make a note of that! I'm eagerly waiting for Training for the New Alpinism in the post to see what that recommends.
In reply to Gus:
Hi Gus, are you able to say whether the climbers who proved strong against the gym benchmarks did so only through their climbing training/natural ability? or because they had been training those exercises alongside climbing already? It would be interesting to know if there is any causal link between climbing strength and 'gym strength', or just some correlation (eg because some climbers had already trained both).
John, re: strength standards, there is more detail here on suggested standards, by bodyweight and by amount of training:
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html
You might want to bump up your initial back squat goal to 1.5x bodyweight, as most athletes can do 1x bodyweight on the bar straight off or pretty quickly. Certainly, if you can bench 1x bw, you should be doing more for a back squat, to be a 'balanced' athlete.
As per previous, even a one-off 1hr session with a coach at the gym (£25?) will be invaluable in getting you started with a coherent programme and basic guidance on good form, and isn't something you'll learn from "New Alpinism" on its own.
Hi Gus, are you able to say whether the climbers who proved strong against the gym benchmarks did so only through their climbing training/natural ability? or because they had been training those exercises alongside climbing already? It would be interesting to know if there is any causal link between climbing strength and 'gym strength', or just some correlation (eg because some climbers had already trained both).
John, re: strength standards, there is more detail here on suggested standards, by bodyweight and by amount of training:
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html
You might want to bump up your initial back squat goal to 1.5x bodyweight, as most athletes can do 1x bodyweight on the bar straight off or pretty quickly. Certainly, if you can bench 1x bw, you should be doing more for a back squat, to be a 'balanced' athlete.
As per previous, even a one-off 1hr session with a coach at the gym (£25?) will be invaluable in getting you started with a coherent programme and basic guidance on good form, and isn't something you'll learn from "New Alpinism" on its own.
In reply to switch:
The guys and girls hadn't done much focused strength training before, they were just strong through years of climbing.
With regards to squat targets, go steady, big legs ain't conducive to rock climbing. Trust me, I know!
The guys and girls hadn't done much focused strength training before, they were just strong through years of climbing.
With regards to squat targets, go steady, big legs ain't conducive to rock climbing. Trust me, I know!
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