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I have saved up and now I'm looking to get some new axes. I've had Quarks and Vipers in the past. I've climbed in Scotland, France, Italy and Norway up to WI5 and Scottish IV/4. I'm tempted by Nomics, mainly because my more recent trips have been on Euro Ice, but I also like the write ups of BD Cobras having had Vipers before and this will also allow for UK winter mountain and alpine trips. Anyone got any advice please. (I'm leaning towards Nomics because a pair deal is £70 - £80 cheaper!).
I went from Vipers to Nomics and not looked back. Cobras always stuck me as a pimped up Vipers but not fundamentally too different. Took me two seasons to get fully to grips (see what I did there?) with leashless, but no doubt in my mind it is far better. Also, never ever had a problem with Nomics for easy stuff (like the naysayers whinge on about).
In reply to cham749:
I have vipers, gold version and also new nomics, still haven't decided on the nomics, I like the swing on them but prefer the handle on the vipers. I've used them both on all kinds of routes and as yet can't say the nomic is hugely better maybe I'm just more used to the vipers.
I have vipers, gold version and also new nomics, still haven't decided on the nomics, I like the swing on them but prefer the handle on the vipers. I've used them both on all kinds of routes and as yet can't say the nomic is hugely better maybe I'm just more used to the vipers.
In reply to cham749:
I'd go with Nomics. Just a nicer swing and less tiring grip for me. I've used mine on similar ground to you as well as easy gullies and ridges. Never felt the need for a straight shafted tool for plunging etc.
I'd go with Nomics. Just a nicer swing and less tiring grip for me. I've used mine on similar ground to you as well as easy gullies and ridges. Never felt the need for a straight shafted tool for plunging etc.
In reply to cham749:
I have a pair of both. For Scottish Winter I prefer nomics as the shaft is narrower and they come with T-rated picks as standard.
Cobras are really a pure water-ice climbing axe. The shaft is, IMHO, too wide for mixed climbing use and you would have to pay extra to get T rated picks as they come with B-rated picks as standard.
I have a pair of both. For Scottish Winter I prefer nomics as the shaft is narrower and they come with T-rated picks as standard.
Cobras are really a pure water-ice climbing axe. The shaft is, IMHO, too wide for mixed climbing use and you would have to pay extra to get T rated picks as they come with B-rated picks as standard.
In reply to planetmarshall:
Thanks every one. I'll give the Nomics a go. I had a brief try out in Rjukan a few years ago. Cheers
Thanks every one. I'll give the Nomics a go. I had a brief try out in Rjukan a few years ago. Cheers
In reply to PPP:
As someone who has owned and climbed extensively on both - they are both excellent tools. But you need to decide what you want to more of - ice, alpine, mixed? Cobras are far better in alpine terrain, whereas the nomics are better on mixed. I prefer the swing of the cobras on ice, but the nomic picks are better for ice.
The thread about nomics falling apart is worth reading. Mine are first generation and going strong, but I do know many people with Mark II nomics that have complaints about durability.
I'd go with the cobras but only if you didn't want to do a lot of mixed. After about M7 or so, the advantage is really with the Nomic.
As someone who has owned and climbed extensively on both - they are both excellent tools. But you need to decide what you want to more of - ice, alpine, mixed? Cobras are far better in alpine terrain, whereas the nomics are better on mixed. I prefer the swing of the cobras on ice, but the nomic picks are better for ice.
The thread about nomics falling apart is worth reading. Mine are first generation and going strong, but I do know many people with Mark II nomics that have complaints about durability.
I'd go with the cobras but only if you didn't want to do a lot of mixed. After about M7 or so, the advantage is really with the Nomic.
Aye, mine are gen 1 too and fine.
In reply to cham749:
If you're thinking of the Nomics then perhaps consider the Fusion II too, they're practically the same shape but with a slightly different swing, plus you have the option of a range of picks to suit the type of climbing you do (as with the Cobras). After two seasons on Vipers and one on Fusions, I doubt will never swing a Viper into ice again.
If you're thinking of the Nomics then perhaps consider the Fusion II too, they're practically the same shape but with a slightly different swing, plus you have the option of a range of picks to suit the type of climbing you do (as with the Cobras). After two seasons on Vipers and one on Fusions, I doubt will never swing a Viper into ice again.
In reply to cham749:
There's also the e-climb tools, just to complicate things. The Cryo seems to be pretty much a mixed tool, but the other ones are a nice ice/alpine option.
There's also the e-climb tools, just to complicate things. The Cryo seems to be pretty much a mixed tool, but the other ones are a nice ice/alpine option.
In reply to cham749:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=593608&v=1#x7834843
Worth a try. Had a play with them yesterday. They're rarely seen in the UK and it's just down to poor marketing and distribution rather than being poor axes.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=593608&v=1#x7834843
Worth a try. Had a play with them yesterday. They're rarely seen in the UK and it's just down to poor marketing and distribution rather than being poor axes.
In reply to cham749:
I would go with the Cassin if I was doing it all again. I've not used the Cassin mind, but my mates have and they like them. I haven't used the new pick on the Fusion either but don't know how much of a difference it will make. In my mind, unless you're dry tooling then your axe has to be good on ice first and foremost, and if you're dry tooling or mixed climbing then it has to be stable when you match (unless you spend your time yarding under a roof).
Or if you want the no risk but heavy option, the DMM.
I'll bore off now.
I would go with the Cassin if I was doing it all again. I've not used the Cassin mind, but my mates have and they like them. I haven't used the new pick on the Fusion either but don't know how much of a difference it will make. In my mind, unless you're dry tooling then your axe has to be good on ice first and foremost, and if you're dry tooling or mixed climbing then it has to be stable when you match (unless you spend your time yarding under a roof).
Or if you want the no risk but heavy option, the DMM.
I'll bore off now.
In reply to cham749:
They're expensive but I prefer the 2nd generation grivel masters. Awesome on ice and can take the force mixed pick too.
They're expensive but I prefer the 2nd generation grivel masters. Awesome on ice and can take the force mixed pick too.
In reply to cham749:
Just to confuse matters, for mixed I'd consider the Ergo. I'd gone from Vipers to Nomics and was very impressed then borrowed an Ergo for a pitch and found it totally superior.
Not tried the Cassins, but very reliably informed that the Ergos are better than the Grivel 'Force' series.
Ergos also have the happy distinction of being the most comfortable axe I've ever used for moving up easyish ice and snow, not what they are designed for but a great bonus.
But in all these things its how you swing!
Just to confuse matters, for mixed I'd consider the Ergo. I'd gone from Vipers to Nomics and was very impressed then borrowed an Ergo for a pitch and found it totally superior.
Not tried the Cassins, but very reliably informed that the Ergos are better than the Grivel 'Force' series.
Ergos also have the happy distinction of being the most comfortable axe I've ever used for moving up easyish ice and snow, not what they are designed for but a great bonus.
But in all these things its how you swing!
In reply to rogerwebb:
I found that the masters are superior on WI than nomics. Also there's nothing to go wrong with them. Tried the Regis and found them fine on steep stuff but twitchy on vert mixed routes. Would like to swing the new BD fuels though to see if they're better than the fusion 2's
I found that the masters are superior on WI than nomics. Also there's nothing to go wrong with them. Tried the Regis and found them fine on steep stuff but twitchy on vert mixed routes. Would like to swing the new BD fuels though to see if they're better than the fusion 2's
In reply to cham749:
I love the Cobras - great balance and swing. I've only tried Vipers briefly but they didn't feel as good. Of course there's an element of getting used to something so that everything else feels different / imperfect. My main concern when I got them was that they wouldn't last last due to being carbon fibre but they've stood the test of time well. Admittedly I haven't abused them too much on gnarly mixed torqueing cracks but they've been fine on various mixed and ice up to VI.
Having tried Fusions for dry tooling, they were noticeably heavier so I wouldn't want to use them.
I also have Ergos, which have the same handle as the Nomics but are much more aggressive. Great for steep dry tooling (miles better than the Cobras) and steep ice, like when you need to get over a slightly overhanging cauliflower. One less steep ice I've found they don't seem to go in as well as the Cobras. Haven't used the Nomics but suspect they would be a good compromise - a better handle and possibly better on the steep stuff but still fine on the less steep stuff.
I'd say if you've got the Vipers already, the Nomics or even the Ergos would be the next thing to go for as the Cobras whilst better in terms of swing and feel are a very similar geometry so don't offer anything different there.
I love the Cobras - great balance and swing. I've only tried Vipers briefly but they didn't feel as good. Of course there's an element of getting used to something so that everything else feels different / imperfect. My main concern when I got them was that they wouldn't last last due to being carbon fibre but they've stood the test of time well. Admittedly I haven't abused them too much on gnarly mixed torqueing cracks but they've been fine on various mixed and ice up to VI.
Having tried Fusions for dry tooling, they were noticeably heavier so I wouldn't want to use them.
I also have Ergos, which have the same handle as the Nomics but are much more aggressive. Great for steep dry tooling (miles better than the Cobras) and steep ice, like when you need to get over a slightly overhanging cauliflower. One less steep ice I've found they don't seem to go in as well as the Cobras. Haven't used the Nomics but suspect they would be a good compromise - a better handle and possibly better on the steep stuff but still fine on the less steep stuff.
I'd say if you've got the Vipers already, the Nomics or even the Ergos would be the next thing to go for as the Cobras whilst better in terms of swing and feel are a very similar geometry so don't offer anything different there.
In reply to Athletic climber:
The Masters are good on ice but you must admit the upper handle is still a dogs dinner.The Ergos have the same construction as the Nomics as far as I can tell so same issues no doubt. The fuel can't be worst than the Fusion but no hammer. So I would say if you want a tool without a hammer option ever, go for the Master, there longer as well.
To the Op I would say, the Nomics are the way to go if you don't want DMM Switches, or Cassins if you want something new. It takes a solid half season of hard dry tooling to ruin the Nomics.
The Masters are good on ice but you must admit the upper handle is still a dogs dinner.The Ergos have the same construction as the Nomics as far as I can tell so same issues no doubt. The fuel can't be worst than the Fusion but no hammer. So I would say if you want a tool without a hammer option ever, go for the Master, there longer as well.
To the Op I would say, the Nomics are the way to go if you don't want DMM Switches, or Cassins if you want something new. It takes a solid half season of hard dry tooling to ruin the Nomics.
In reply to cham749:
I had a set of Nomics which were destroyed after one season of Scottish Mixed. Lyon Equipment were informed and they said they were not designed for such use!
I now have DMM Apex's - double rivet at the head inspires more confidence!
I had a set of Nomics which were destroyed after one season of Scottish Mixed. Lyon Equipment were informed and they said they were not designed for such use!
I now have DMM Apex's - double rivet at the head inspires more confidence!
In reply to cham749:
I have a pair of original Nomics. No issues with them and as others have already said, the handle design's brill.
I've also used the Cassins on a WI4+ route and I was dead impressed. It was only the one route but I didn't feel that the handle design suited me as well as the Nomic. However, it may only have been an initial impression. If I was buying new axes now, the Cassins would definitely be very high on the list.
I also did a pitch with a pair of DMM Apexs. Oh deary me, they reminded me of the Predators, very butch. I guess the Switch would be similar, but it looks to be a nice axe though.
I have a pair of original Nomics. No issues with them and as others have already said, the handle design's brill.
I've also used the Cassins on a WI4+ route and I was dead impressed. It was only the one route but I didn't feel that the handle design suited me as well as the Nomic. However, it may only have been an initial impression. If I was buying new axes now, the Cassins would definitely be very high on the list.
I also did a pitch with a pair of DMM Apexs. Oh deary me, they reminded me of the Predators, very butch. I guess the Switch would be similar, but it looks to be a nice axe though.
In reply to cham749: Just to provide a contrasting opinion - IMO anyone buying Nomics to climb Scottish IV has more money than sense.
If you can't climb far harder than WI5 or IV with Quarks or Vipers then new axes are not the answer. It is likely to be far more productive to spend the money on a few extra days climbing this winter.
Despite being tempted, after having a long hard think, I gave Nomics a miss last winter when buying new axes and went back to the latest Quarks and have not regretted it in the slightest even when playing on relatively hard dry tooling routes where my climbing partners were all using Nomics.
That said, I still regularly climb with my Mountain Tech Vertiges and occasionally a Chounaird-Frost alpine axe so I am well used to being told I am behind the times and I won't take offense if you fall for all the marketing spin from the large corporate gear manufacturers and their sponsored climbers and stump up for some shiny new toys.
If you can't climb far harder than WI5 or IV with Quarks or Vipers then new axes are not the answer. It is likely to be far more productive to spend the money on a few extra days climbing this winter.
Despite being tempted, after having a long hard think, I gave Nomics a miss last winter when buying new axes and went back to the latest Quarks and have not regretted it in the slightest even when playing on relatively hard dry tooling routes where my climbing partners were all using Nomics.
That said, I still regularly climb with my Mountain Tech Vertiges and occasionally a Chounaird-Frost alpine axe so I am well used to being told I am behind the times and I won't take offense if you fall for all the marketing spin from the large corporate gear manufacturers and their sponsored climbers and stump up for some shiny new toys.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I won't take offense if you fall for all the marketing spin from the large corporate gear manufacturers and their sponsored climbers and stump up for some shiny new toys.
I am one of these punters who has done this and I'm not minted but like to save up as the OP has done and get new shiny kit.(I own quarks and recently nomics but not used them in anger yet)
I think I'm desperately trying to get any advantage to grow a set of balls.
To the OP
I'm a great believer in whatever axes that gives you the most confidence and feels right for you get them as none of the axes you've mentioned are crap axes.
cheers and good luck
Gaz
I won't take offense if you fall for all the marketing spin from the large corporate gear manufacturers and their sponsored climbers and stump up for some shiny new toys.
I am one of these punters who has done this and I'm not minted but like to save up as the OP has done and get new shiny kit.(I own quarks and recently nomics but not used them in anger yet)
I think I'm desperately trying to get any advantage to grow a set of balls.
To the OP
I'm a great believer in whatever axes that gives you the most confidence and feels right for you get them as none of the axes you've mentioned are crap axes.
cheers and good luck
Gaz
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
That's like saying anyone who buy's rock shoes to climb VS or below has more money than sense. Considering the overall expense of kitting yourself out for winter the additional expense of Nomics over say Quarks is not significant.
> (In reply to cham749) Just to provide a contrasting opinion - IMO anyone buying Nomics to climb Scottish IV has more money than sense.
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That's like saying anyone who buy's rock shoes to climb VS or below has more money than sense. Considering the overall expense of kitting yourself out for winter the additional expense of Nomics over say Quarks is not significant.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I didn't find straight shafted type axes limiting till I was climbing VII, and indeed two handles can be quite annoying on III and below. But if you intend to climb a lot and maybe second harder stuff or dry tool then they're the way to go.
I didn't find straight shafted type axes limiting till I was climbing VII, and indeed two handles can be quite annoying on III and below. But if you intend to climb a lot and maybe second harder stuff or dry tool then they're the way to go.
Post edited at 11:52
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
You're right that Vipers are fine for IVs and indeed progressing to Vs and VIs.
You're right that Vipers are fine for IVs and indeed progressing to Vs and VIs.
In reply to cham749:
I have quarks which I have found to be an excellent jack of all trades so far. They've taken a good beating without much wear other than cosmetic scratches. Feel nice and light but with the option to add Petzl pick weights and add/remove the hammer/adze. Probably all I would ever really need and would not sell them.
However, recently picked up Cassin X-Dreams. I've only played with them one day at ice factor so far but I have great expectations. I did alot of research before committing and the reviews are overwhelmingly positive. They seem to be a very close contender for Nomics. Having now used both, I would say I prefer the Cassin's, mainly due to the grip which I found extremely comfortable and slightly better than the Nomic grip. I have quite small hands and the X-dreams offer alot of options to fine tune the size of the grip with adjustable/removable padding and finger rests on the grip. The whole handle is also adjustable between ice and dry mode. The former grip is very close to the nomic's grip angle and the latter seems to be more akin to an ergo. Best of both?
On top of that one factor that tipped the balance for me was that the cassin picks are much more reasonably priced than the petzl picks. You can pick up replacement picks for the X-dreams for £15-20 online. When I last checked I think petzl's were more like £40.
I have quarks which I have found to be an excellent jack of all trades so far. They've taken a good beating without much wear other than cosmetic scratches. Feel nice and light but with the option to add Petzl pick weights and add/remove the hammer/adze. Probably all I would ever really need and would not sell them.
However, recently picked up Cassin X-Dreams. I've only played with them one day at ice factor so far but I have great expectations. I did alot of research before committing and the reviews are overwhelmingly positive. They seem to be a very close contender for Nomics. Having now used both, I would say I prefer the Cassin's, mainly due to the grip which I found extremely comfortable and slightly better than the Nomic grip. I have quite small hands and the X-dreams offer alot of options to fine tune the size of the grip with adjustable/removable padding and finger rests on the grip. The whole handle is also adjustable between ice and dry mode. The former grip is very close to the nomic's grip angle and the latter seems to be more akin to an ergo. Best of both?
On top of that one factor that tipped the balance for me was that the cassin picks are much more reasonably priced than the petzl picks. You can pick up replacement picks for the X-dreams for £15-20 online. When I last checked I think petzl's were more like £40.
In reply to Doghouse:
No it isn't. It is like buying Sportiva Solutions or Fiveten Dragons to climb VS. If can't climb grade IV with Quarks it certainly isn't the axes that are holding you back.
> That's like saying anyone who buy's rock shoes to climb VS or below has more money than sense. Considering the overall expense of kitting yourself out for winter the additional expense of Nomics over say Quarks is not significant.
No it isn't. It is like buying Sportiva Solutions or Fiveten Dragons to climb VS. If can't climb grade IV with Quarks it certainly isn't the axes that are holding you back.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Just my two pence worth
Started with original dmm flys many years ago, thought they were great then I tried vipers. The newer bronze version and I found they made everything much easier, I wasn't able to climb harder grades with them any more than the flys, they just made it easier.
Last year bought some nomics (they were a bargin)
Not climbed on them a great deal, nice axes, i think I'm just more used to the vipers
Personally at the moment in hindsight I should of just stayed with the vipers, in fact I still have them and still climb with them. Up to you if you have the cash to splash go ahead, I personlly haven't noticed a huge improvement in my climbing with the nomics
Just my two pence worth
Started with original dmm flys many years ago, thought they were great then I tried vipers. The newer bronze version and I found they made everything much easier, I wasn't able to climb harder grades with them any more than the flys, they just made it easier.
Last year bought some nomics (they were a bargin)
Not climbed on them a great deal, nice axes, i think I'm just more used to the vipers
Personally at the moment in hindsight I should of just stayed with the vipers, in fact I still have them and still climb with them. Up to you if you have the cash to splash go ahead, I personlly haven't noticed a huge improvement in my climbing with the nomics
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Nobody said anything about the axes holding them back. It's all about buying what you feel is the best equipment that you can afford for what you want to do without the usual 'if you can't climb X without Y then you have more money than sense' or 'it isn't the gear holding them back' rhetoric but hey! this is UKC.
> (In reply to Doghouse)
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> No it isn't. It is like buying Sportiva Solutions or Fiveten Dragons to climb VS. If can't climb grade IV with Quarks it certainly isn't the axes that are holding you back.
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> No it isn't. It is like buying Sportiva Solutions or Fiveten Dragons to climb VS. If can't climb grade IV with Quarks it certainly isn't the axes that are holding you back.
Nobody said anything about the axes holding them back. It's all about buying what you feel is the best equipment that you can afford for what you want to do without the usual 'if you can't climb X without Y then you have more money than sense' or 'it isn't the gear holding them back' rhetoric but hey! this is UKC.
In reply to cham749:
If you're mostly into euro ice around WI5 you cant go wrong with Nomics. I climb WI5 with them way more confident and ease than with Quarks. Not to mention Vipers or old BD Fusion, horrible tools for pure ice. Guess you have to decide where you want the tool to excel?
For euro ice:
Nomics or Cassin X-Dream ( maybe new BD Fuel) Ive done some drytooling with the Edelrid rage which felt really stable and pretty good on ice as well. Not as adjustable as the others but way cheaper.
For scottish (which I havent done):
Go with the above posters suggestion. Quarks would in my eyes be the best for ice. Way better balance than Vipers. Vipers probably more robust.
If you're mostly into euro ice around WI5 you cant go wrong with Nomics. I climb WI5 with them way more confident and ease than with Quarks. Not to mention Vipers or old BD Fusion, horrible tools for pure ice. Guess you have to decide where you want the tool to excel?
For euro ice:
Nomics or Cassin X-Dream ( maybe new BD Fuel) Ive done some drytooling with the Edelrid rage which felt really stable and pretty good on ice as well. Not as adjustable as the others but way cheaper.
For scottish (which I havent done):
Go with the above posters suggestion. Quarks would in my eyes be the best for ice. Way better balance than Vipers. Vipers probably more robust.
In reply to DanielJ:
I quite like my vipers on ice but they do become hefty after a while causing my swing to be less accurate than it should be, having taken the pick weights off the nomics and fitting them with the older cascade pics I'm looking forward to winter.
As always if you can have a play with said axes to find which you prefer go with which feels best
I quite like my vipers on ice but they do become hefty after a while causing my swing to be less accurate than it should be, having taken the pick weights off the nomics and fitting them with the older cascade pics I'm looking forward to winter.
As always if you can have a play with said axes to find which you prefer go with which feels best
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