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Here's a really good piece on belaying that I think anyone, however experienced, would find useful.
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/new-rules-belaying/
Gah, typos galore in the thread title.
Mind you, it looks kind of Welsh...
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/new-rules-belaying/
Gah, typos galore in the thread title.
Mind you, it looks kind of Welsh...
Post edited at 21:36
In reply to ericinbristol:
It actually has the cheek to call itself 'new rules about belaying', when there's nothing new here at all ... and! ... it's just about belaying at indoor climbing walls! It's like tips for belaying at Harrison's Rocks c. 60 years out of date. Gawd knows what these guys are like belaying on a proper belay, i.e. without that 5 x 5' 'belay box' to play about on.
It actually has the cheek to call itself 'new rules about belaying', when there's nothing new here at all ... and! ... it's just about belaying at indoor climbing walls! It's like tips for belaying at Harrison's Rocks c. 60 years out of date. Gawd knows what these guys are like belaying on a proper belay, i.e. without that 5 x 5' 'belay box' to play about on.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It's not just about belaying on indoor walls.
The title is unfortunate. Get past that and it has lots of useful reminders about good practice.
It's not just about belaying on indoor walls.
The title is unfortunate. Get past that and it has lots of useful reminders about good practice.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Er ... like, concentrate on what you're doing and, in an emergency, don't let go with your brake hand! Also, article fundamentally flawed in that he talks about his left hand as his guide hand and right hand as his brake hand i.e. he seems always to use the same configuration, when of course, anyone who's been climbing for more than a few days knows that you have to be able to do it equally well both ways round. On a real climb, if there are traverses, depending on which way the leader is going from the belay ledge.
Etc.
Er ... like, concentrate on what you're doing and, in an emergency, don't let go with your brake hand! Also, article fundamentally flawed in that he talks about his left hand as his guide hand and right hand as his brake hand i.e. he seems always to use the same configuration, when of course, anyone who's been climbing for more than a few days knows that you have to be able to do it equally well both ways round. On a real climb, if there are traverses, depending on which way the leader is going from the belay ledge.
Etc.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Er ... And he has climbed plenty and so does know that the configuration changes in many circumstances. As it so obvious it doesn't need to be spelled out. And reminders about concentrating are no bad thing.
Etc.
Er ... And he has climbed plenty and so does know that the configuration changes in many circumstances. As it so obvious it doesn't need to be spelled out. And reminders about concentrating are no bad thing.
Etc.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Hmm. I think I preferred the version in the article - the author of that doesn't come across as an unbearably pompous arse for a start. "On a real climb" FFS.
> Er ... like, concentrate on what you're doing and, in an emergency, don't let go with your brake hand!
Hmm. I think I preferred the version in the article - the author of that doesn't come across as an unbearably pompous arse for a start. "On a real climb" FFS.
In reply to Pagan:
Don't most people who climb on climbing walls do so as training for climbing on real rock? I always did, and everyone I climbed with always did.
Don't most people who climb on climbing walls do so as training for climbing on real rock? I always did, and everyone I climbed with always did.
In reply to Pagan:
PS. I was very keen on using climbing walls in the winter because they were a brilliant way of keeping fit and even building up climbing strength. It was one of the great breakthroughs in climbing when good indoor walls became widespread.
PS. I was very keen on using climbing walls in the winter because they were a brilliant way of keeping fit and even building up climbing strength. It was one of the great breakthroughs in climbing when good indoor walls became widespread.
In reply to ericinbristol:
I hope the author has permission to use all those images from Petzl (http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belaying-leader-in-rock-climbing ). There is a bit of an advert for the grigri at one point, so maybe he does.
I hope the author has permission to use all those images from Petzl (http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belaying-leader-in-rock-climbing ). There is a bit of an advert for the grigri at one point, so maybe he does.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Well I thought it was limited to grigri use on sports climbs and not very good even for that. Full of mumbo jumbo, no explanation of how the near misses occured, no mention of how to deal with weight differentials; the stuff on how to safely use a grigri was confusing; the article tells people how the most scared thing is pay attention on belay and then goes on about irrelevant distracting nonsense like the 5 foot box, jumping jack flip flop, and belay glasses.
Well I thought it was limited to grigri use on sports climbs and not very good even for that. Full of mumbo jumbo, no explanation of how the near misses occured, no mention of how to deal with weight differentials; the stuff on how to safely use a grigri was confusing; the article tells people how the most scared thing is pay attention on belay and then goes on about irrelevant distracting nonsense like the 5 foot box, jumping jack flip flop, and belay glasses.
In reply to Offwidth:
'Don't talk while belaying' and 'Don't talk to the belayer' are not pieces of advice that only apply to grigri use on sports climbs.
I don't know what is irrelevant and distracting about advising against belaying in flip flops. I was belaying someone using flip flops: he pulled off a hold and fell, the hold hit my foot - I didn't drop my climbing partner but I imagine it could make someone drop their climbing partner. So, useful advice I thought. Same re belay glasses: I find them useful for allowing me to watch the leader pretty much all the time.
I didn't see any mumbo jumbo and you didn't specify any so I can't comment
'Don't talk while belaying' and 'Don't talk to the belayer' are not pieces of advice that only apply to grigri use on sports climbs.
I don't know what is irrelevant and distracting about advising against belaying in flip flops. I was belaying someone using flip flops: he pulled off a hold and fell, the hold hit my foot - I didn't drop my climbing partner but I imagine it could make someone drop their climbing partner. So, useful advice I thought. Same re belay glasses: I find them useful for allowing me to watch the leader pretty much all the time.
I didn't see any mumbo jumbo and you didn't specify any so I can't comment
In reply to ericinbristol:
OK. Let's just list the main skills required in belaying on a conventional (trad) rock climb:
1. How to belay the leader using a modern belay device.
2. How to belay the leader without a modern belay device (very important to know in the very serious situation in which the belaying device has been dropped and you have no other abseil device etc that you can use)
3. How to belay in sense of attach yourself to the rock/mountain when you've got to your belay ledge. i.e how to construct a belay. Vast subject.
4. How to arrange yourself correctly in relation to you belay/anchors.
5. How to tend to the 'dead' rope when belaying, to avoid it getting caught up around spikes /overhangs etc. below the belay ledge. Very tricky when the belay ledge is very small.
6. How to communicate with the leader, while you're belaying, if/once he/she’s out of sight.
7. The correct sequence/ procedure of dismantling a belay once the leader has arrived at the next stance.
8. The correct procedure for swapping over belays at a stance (i.e. when second has joined leader), depending on whether the leader is leading on, or if you're doing alternate leads.
The article you refer to above covers part of 1, not very well.
OK. Let's just list the main skills required in belaying on a conventional (trad) rock climb:
1. How to belay the leader using a modern belay device.
2. How to belay the leader without a modern belay device (very important to know in the very serious situation in which the belaying device has been dropped and you have no other abseil device etc that you can use)
3. How to belay in sense of attach yourself to the rock/mountain when you've got to your belay ledge. i.e how to construct a belay. Vast subject.
4. How to arrange yourself correctly in relation to you belay/anchors.
5. How to tend to the 'dead' rope when belaying, to avoid it getting caught up around spikes /overhangs etc. below the belay ledge. Very tricky when the belay ledge is very small.
6. How to communicate with the leader, while you're belaying, if/once he/she’s out of sight.
7. The correct sequence/ procedure of dismantling a belay once the leader has arrived at the next stance.
8. The correct procedure for swapping over belays at a stance (i.e. when second has joined leader), depending on whether the leader is leading on, or if you're doing alternate leads.
The article you refer to above covers part of 1, not very well.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Are you serious? Do you wear safety shoes when belaying now??
As for lazy gimmick glasses I can half forgive them indoors if a belayer has a rigid neck for some medical reason but the human vision works best without something modifying perspective like that in hazardous enviroments. Lets say a climber on the route next door pulls a rock off that might bounce your way or you take off into the crag face when your leader falls or you have some other safety reason to look clearly and quickly somewhere else other than straight up.
Are you serious? Do you wear safety shoes when belaying now??
As for lazy gimmick glasses I can half forgive them indoors if a belayer has a rigid neck for some medical reason but the human vision works best without something modifying perspective like that in hazardous enviroments. Lets say a climber on the route next door pulls a rock off that might bounce your way or you take off into the crag face when your leader falls or you have some other safety reason to look clearly and quickly somewhere else other than straight up.
Post edited at 11:17
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I was not suggesting this was a comprehensive guide to the skills necessary for belaying in all situations. I thought it was a useful reminder (i.e. not anything new) of some important things - belaying's rely important, even those of us who have never dropped anyone have sometimes probably just been lucky, don't distract belayers by talking to them, don't distract yourself by talking to others while belaying, if the situation allows us move while belaying (something I find beginner belayers tend to not know), don't wear flipflops etc etc. If think it didn't do well what it did do, that's your call.
UKC discussions, like many on the internet, escalate to in-your-face hypercritical argumentativeness amazingly easily. When they do, as this one has, I invoke Professor Internet http://www.systemcomic.com/2011/08/03/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-i... and bail from the thread.
I was not suggesting this was a comprehensive guide to the skills necessary for belaying in all situations. I thought it was a useful reminder (i.e. not anything new) of some important things - belaying's rely important, even those of us who have never dropped anyone have sometimes probably just been lucky, don't distract belayers by talking to them, don't distract yourself by talking to others while belaying, if the situation allows us move while belaying (something I find beginner belayers tend to not know), don't wear flipflops etc etc. If think it didn't do well what it did do, that's your call.
UKC discussions, like many on the internet, escalate to in-your-face hypercritical argumentativeness amazingly easily. When they do, as this one has, I invoke Professor Internet http://www.systemcomic.com/2011/08/03/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-i... and bail from the thread.
In reply to ericinbristol:
And yet another hilarious UKC discussion ensues. The article is pretty clear about what aspects of belaying it intends to cover. Maybe somebody else can write "Combat belaying on the Lleyn" as a follow up piece for "proper" climbers.
Many moons ago I got free entry to Kendal wall in return for stints at floor-walking. The real death merchants when it came to belaying were the crusty old veterans rather than the wall-bred youngsters. In the space of several weeks I saw every flavour of incompetence and ineptitude. You'd always get an affronted response when intervening, which was quickly solved by asking them to show their partner exactly how they had just been trying to kill them.
And yet another hilarious UKC discussion ensues. The article is pretty clear about what aspects of belaying it intends to cover. Maybe somebody else can write "Combat belaying on the Lleyn" as a follow up piece for "proper" climbers.
Many moons ago I got free entry to Kendal wall in return for stints at floor-walking. The real death merchants when it came to belaying were the crusty old veterans rather than the wall-bred youngsters. In the space of several weeks I saw every flavour of incompetence and ineptitude. You'd always get an affronted response when intervening, which was quickly solved by asking them to show their partner exactly how they had just been trying to kill them.
In reply to danm:
The trouble is that an awful lot of older climbers, for very obvious historical reasons, climb such that they never fall off. Therefore the belayer, despite belaying badly, has rarely had the opportunity to catch their partner. Therefore they get away with it.
Neil
The trouble is that an awful lot of older climbers, for very obvious historical reasons, climb such that they never fall off. Therefore the belayer, despite belaying badly, has rarely had the opportunity to catch their partner. Therefore they get away with it.
Neil
Post edited at 11:32
In reply to Neil Williams:
Well, we did used to fall off. My main climbing partner from 1969-71 fell off a lot, so I held lots of falls. The first serious one I failed to hold (shoulder belay - documented in 'a book'); after that I must have held 7 or 8 major leader falls, the first 2 or 3 just using an old waist belay and gardening gloves. One of those was directly onto my waist (Noah's Warning on Cromlech in the sleet - leader fell and the little gear he had all came out.)
Most of my contemporaries also held a lot of falls. In the 80s and 90s falls tended to be much smaller and relatively trivial with modern belay devices.
> The trouble is that an awful lot of older climbers, for very obvious historical reasons, climb such that they never fall off. Therefore the belayer, despite belaying badly, has rarely had the opportunity to catch their partner. Therefore they get away with it.
> Neil
Well, we did used to fall off. My main climbing partner from 1969-71 fell off a lot, so I held lots of falls. The first serious one I failed to hold (shoulder belay - documented in 'a book'); after that I must have held 7 or 8 major leader falls, the first 2 or 3 just using an old waist belay and gardening gloves. One of those was directly onto my waist (Noah's Warning on Cromlech in the sleet - leader fell and the little gear he had all came out.)
Most of my contemporaries also held a lot of falls. In the 80s and 90s falls tended to be much smaller and relatively trivial with modern belay devices.
In reply to Neil Williams:
That is a very good point. One guy, after I'd managed to persuade his partner not to deck him there and then, sheepishly said he'd been belaying that way for 40 years. He'd never held a leader fall in all that time.
That is a very good point. One guy, after I'd managed to persuade his partner not to deck him there and then, sheepishly said he'd been belaying that way for 40 years. He'd never held a leader fall in all that time.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Thats lame.
Of course the warning that accidents happen is a useful reminder but by going rather OTT and dragging irrelevance into the argument I am saying the message of that warning is diluted. Because I don't see the excellence you claimed, that is not being angry about the internet, in fact its more about hoping less experienced belayers think more about belaying than the article does. I've had belayers who talk non-stop but they watch like a hawk and stop chatting if I look wobbly on lead and so are not lacking in attention in any important respect, which is the key issue about what can go wrong with experienced belayers talking. Of the decking-out accidents I've seen most were incompetant belaying, including a few because the belayer didnt realise they would launch into the air when their heavier leader fell unexpectedly or if belaying too far out from the wall, launch into the wall if their (even if lighter) leader fell; some were due to bad bolt spacing combined with tricky clips due to poor route setting on the first few bolts indoors. None were experienced belayers even though Im sure it must happen. If we are talking grigris and the device isnt being misused someone decking must be vanishingly rare? Ensure you can use your belay device properly must be the most important belay message.
So go off in a huff if you like and continue your flip-flop anxiety but you started the thread looking to improve belay safety and don't be surpised if others have different ideas for the same aim.
Thats lame.
Of course the warning that accidents happen is a useful reminder but by going rather OTT and dragging irrelevance into the argument I am saying the message of that warning is diluted. Because I don't see the excellence you claimed, that is not being angry about the internet, in fact its more about hoping less experienced belayers think more about belaying than the article does. I've had belayers who talk non-stop but they watch like a hawk and stop chatting if I look wobbly on lead and so are not lacking in attention in any important respect, which is the key issue about what can go wrong with experienced belayers talking. Of the decking-out accidents I've seen most were incompetant belaying, including a few because the belayer didnt realise they would launch into the air when their heavier leader fell unexpectedly or if belaying too far out from the wall, launch into the wall if their (even if lighter) leader fell; some were due to bad bolt spacing combined with tricky clips due to poor route setting on the first few bolts indoors. None were experienced belayers even though Im sure it must happen. If we are talking grigris and the device isnt being misused someone decking must be vanishingly rare? Ensure you can use your belay device properly must be the most important belay message.
So go off in a huff if you like and continue your flip-flop anxiety but you started the thread looking to improve belay safety and don't be surpised if others have different ideas for the same aim.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Good on you for posting this Eric.
More reminders the better as regards belaying especially if it is done in an attractive way parring it down to the essentials.
It is a bit of an advert for the Gri-gri, but then that is the most popular device for sport climbing belaying.
Whilst not a comprehensive guide and hardly new as the title suggests (the title has been framed to get attention) it is a good reminder of some basic principles.
Many accidents a year and some deaths (we don't know how many) are caused by ignoring some of these principles.
Remember Gordon and Steve -Offwidth
Don’t Talk While Belaying - save that for internet forums
And Don’t Talk to the Belayer
Prepare to Move
Don’t Wear Flip-flops
Be Proactive with Distractions
Know What’s An Appropriate Amount of Slack
Left Hand Off
Don’t Wear a Belay Glove on the Left Hand
Focus and Lower
Don’t Fix Rope Kinks and Lower at the Same Time
Try Some Belay Glasses
It’s Not the Device’s Fault
Tie A Knot in the End of the Rope
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/new-rules-belaying/
Good on you for posting this Eric.
More reminders the better as regards belaying especially if it is done in an attractive way parring it down to the essentials.
It is a bit of an advert for the Gri-gri, but then that is the most popular device for sport climbing belaying.
Whilst not a comprehensive guide and hardly new as the title suggests (the title has been framed to get attention) it is a good reminder of some basic principles.
Many accidents a year and some deaths (we don't know how many) are caused by ignoring some of these principles.
Remember Gordon and Steve -Offwidth
Don’t Talk While Belaying - save that for internet forums
And Don’t Talk to the Belayer
Prepare to Move
Don’t Wear Flip-flops
Be Proactive with Distractions
Know What’s An Appropriate Amount of Slack
Left Hand Off
Don’t Wear a Belay Glove on the Left Hand
Focus and Lower
Don’t Fix Rope Kinks and Lower at the Same Time
Try Some Belay Glasses
It’s Not the Device’s Fault
Tie A Knot in the End of the Rope
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/new-rules-belaying/
Post edited at 12:04
In reply to Offwidth:
You are very angry Steve - everyone knows that.
And you write and post too much on internet forums.
Get out and play!
You are very angry Steve - everyone knows that.
And you write and post too much on internet forums.
Get out and play!
In reply to ericinbristol:
Have you read the paragraph titled "focus and lower"?
I'd take everything this guy says with a huge pinch of salt!
> Here's a really good piece on belaying that I think anyone, however experienced, would find useful.
> Gah, typos galore in the thread title.
> Mind you, it looks kind of Welsh...
Have you read the paragraph titled "focus and lower"?
I'd take everything this guy says with a huge pinch of salt!
In reply to danm:
Thats a (verylucky) trad climber bringing their incompetant belaying indoors not an experienced sports climbing belayer using a grigri, getting lazy which seemed to be the focus of the article.
Thats a (verylucky) trad climber bringing their incompetant belaying indoors not an experienced sports climbing belayer using a grigri, getting lazy which seemed to be the focus of the article.
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Im eating lunch after waiting for things to dry and Moff to finish her mornings work on YMC grit II before driving a couple of miles to seacliff climb for the afternoon in West Penrith. Thanks for asking dear.
Im eating lunch after waiting for things to dry and Moff to finish her mornings work on YMC grit II before driving a couple of miles to seacliff climb for the afternoon in West Penrith. Thanks for asking dear.
Post edited at 12:15
In reply to Michael Ryan:
Remember Mick
Dont sing, stand on your head, juggle, trick belay with your hand through your leg, forget to put your lowering glove somewhere conveniently reachable and especially never forget to feel that warm glow inside from mixing your messages about slightly ill advised human nature, inventive irrelevance and genuine incompetance, even though latter is usually the real problem.
Remember Mick
Dont sing, stand on your head, juggle, trick belay with your hand through your leg, forget to put your lowering glove somewhere conveniently reachable and especially never forget to feel that warm glow inside from mixing your messages about slightly ill advised human nature, inventive irrelevance and genuine incompetance, even though latter is usually the real problem.
Not the best article, but it seemed alright to me.
People tend to get complacent about mundane things they've done for years without incident. It's easy to slowly slip in your standards over time, once you were intently focused on the leader, now years on you're trying to eat a sandwich while looking at those tights walking past. It's good to have a reminder that this belaying is an extremely serious job.
The one about don't talk to people when belaying resonants with me, it's another distraction, and the primary cause of times I've accidentally short roped people, or been short roped.
People tend to get complacent about mundane things they've done for years without incident. It's easy to slowly slip in your standards over time, once you were intently focused on the leader, now years on you're trying to eat a sandwich while looking at those tights walking past. It's good to have a reminder that this belaying is an extremely serious job.
The one about don't talk to people when belaying resonants with me, it's another distraction, and the primary cause of times I've accidentally short roped people, or been short roped.
In reply to ericinbristol:
I didn't find it useful I'm afraid.
Pretty much all my hard won lessons about belaying were not covered
> Here's a really good piece on belaying that I think anyone, however experienced, would find useful.
I didn't find it useful I'm afraid.
Pretty much all my hard won lessons about belaying were not covered
In reply to ericinbristol:
Slack down to between your waist and your knees is surely a good recipe for decking out on the first few clips?
Slack down to between your waist and your knees is surely a good recipe for decking out on the first few clips?
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