UKC

Purely for thoughts sake. I realised today im not entirely sure when and where I would have to call out MRT if I ever ended up in shtick. My main uncertainty is when I would need MRT and when I would solely need emergency services, paramedics etc. and as such save MRT from having to attend an accident they may not necessarily need to. I was thinking in particular about roadside crags. Take for instance Almscliffe, or maybe the Slipstones, 500m from the road up a hill and all single pitch. Should my partner fall and require paramedics, should I also call on the MRT even though the crag is so accessible? Obviously a very grey area and entirely situational but it got me considering it. Al.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

You dial 999 and let the emergency services make those decisions. They're much better qualified to decide. Anyway, what MRT emerency number would yo dial??

In reply to Alex the Alex:

Dial 999, ask for POLICE, then ask for Mountain Rescue

Let them make the decision on whether an ambulance/paramedic/helicopter would be better - they will know best what terrain the other services can cover.

Better that way, than to call the ambulance, have the crew unable to get to you and have to then wait much longer to mobilise MRT/chopper to reach the casualty
( and I should know, I've been that casualty! )

In reply to imkevinmc:

The operator answers the phone, and says "what service do you require?" They then expect you to say "police", "fire", "ambulance" or maybe "coastguard". They are not really equipped to help you choose.

To the OP:
Call 999, ask for the police, then ask for mountain rescue. If you are better off with the ambulance, they will pass the incident over to them. The ambulance service on the other hand are not always great at calling out mountain rescue. This is just because the Mountain Rescue often call out the ambulance to take care of the casualty once they have got them to the road, so are familiar with them and what they can do. Ambulance personnel on the other hand rarely have to ask for MR help, so just aren't as familiar with their options.

Even at a crag 500m from the road, remember that an ambulance comes with only two paramedics and a gurney with wheels. Injured people are kinda heavy, so half a dozen MR guys with a stretcher designed for carrying might be useful even there.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

this is a hard one to define, paramedics have almost no way of moving a casualty unless its on the road or in a house. so even if its say next to the road but a short 10m walk if the person has spinal injures you would best to ask for MR and there team leader will decide and make the call as they will know the area very well.

one thing that a lot of people say about MR teams is they feel embarrassed about calling them out. people should be afraid of calling and asking for there help. everyone one a MR team wants to help and do there bit. thats why they spend lots of time training and practicing.

also its best to call them if you are unsure about something before its all gone wrong instead of when the shit has hit the fan

hope that helps a bit

In reply to Alex the Alex: FWIW when I dislocated my knee at the upper tier of of the Roaches many moons ago, it was just ambulance paramedics attended but they ended up calling on the Police helicopter. It landed 100m away then shuttled me to the ambulance rather than the paramedics (and other climbers) attempting to carry me the 400-600m downhill over rough ground.

At the Eastern Edges I would always ask first for MR as they regularly scoop up fallen climbers and are ready and prepared. In fact, I think on occasion they have managed to stretcher climbers to the road quicker than the ambulance can actually get there.

In many other situations I think asking to be put through to the Police first and then suggesting MR, coastguard, fire brigade, cliff rescue, RNLI, cave rescue, air ambulance or SAR Helicopter etc. would be better than going via an ambulance control room who may be a bit flummoxed if you can't give a postcode or a road number.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Only 2 of 13 Ambulance Call centres who responded to a research survey had an implemented protocol for involving SAR/MR (and only 5% of Mountain Users know the correct 999>Police>MR pathway for getting to the right team.

See: http://www.mcofs.org.uk/assets/mountainsafety/999%20corrected%20email%20siz...

In reply to Alex the Alex:

I was at Almscliff once when a guy fell and broke his ankles. The ambulance people were first to arrive, and even though it's so close to the road, they couldn't carry the stretcher down, over a wall, across an uneven field, over another wall, to the road. There was talk of an air ambulance, or waiting for MRT to arrive, luckily there were enough climbers about that between us we did the carry.

In short, as others have said, it's very hard for the lay person to know, so call Police, ask for mountain rescue, give them the details, and let them decide what's bast!

In reply to Alex the Alex:

I would definitely ask for MR to attend. If you are 500m from the road then the ambulance crew will need help getting you to the ambulance.
More importantly (In the north lakes anyway, as I have no experience of anywhere else) the chances are MR will be with you quicker and a team paramedic or doctor will be with them, an ambulance may turn up with no paramedics on board and only be able to offer limited assistance.
If you ask for an ambulance and you are not easily accessible from the road they may turn up and then need to call MR to assist, there will then be a delay, you will need to wait and so will they.
Basically if you are not by the road and you are incapacitated through injury or it will be difficult and painful to get yourself out of wherever you are then call MR.
I sometimes think that in the lakes if I was injured by a road I might drag myself away from it so I could call MR instead of an ambulance anyway. Ambulance crews are great but the service seems over worked and under resourced unfortunately.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

Brilliant replies! Just the insight I was looking for. It's heartening to hear such assurance about the MRT as well. Cheers. Alex

In reply to Alex the Alex:

If you can't safely wheel a loaded gurney to the patient and back then call 999 ask for police, MRT and let them decide, even if it is only 20 foot of muddy puddles.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

If your partner fell and required medical help I'd call a lawyer. Why did you drop him? He's going to sue you now!!

In reply to Alex the Alex:

We once called an ambulance at Burbage north when this guy fell off and broke his ankle.
Definitely a bit of a mistake, there was enough of us to get he guy to the ambulance on a stretcher but it was a bit damp and the ambulance guys were slipping and sliding about because their flat soled footwear.
One of them was lucky not to hurt himself falling over while carrying the gas and air canister!

In reply to Dave Perry:

Penalty slack for losing my cam the day before your honour.

In reply to Jack B:
"The operator answers the phone, and says "what service do you require?"

Close, the system is now automated at that point so it's voice recognition software and you only get a person if they can't decipher what you need after 3 attempts.

This always baffles me as there are loads of situations where multiple services would be required for example a car crash where someone is trapped needs all three of the main services.

In reply to Alex the Alex:
You phone mountain rescue if you are in terrain in which mountain rescue operate and you need rescue.

(It would be more poetic to say 'if you are on a mountain and you need rescue' but obviously mountain rescue operate in areas outside of mountains)

Just phoning MR does not mean they will turn up; they will often just talk people off hills when they have become slightly confused etc.

In reply to gethin_allen:
I would ask for ambulance on the basis that needs to be on its way the soonest. The operator will then co-ordinate with the other services.

Edit: this is in response to the car crash scenario, not the MR scenario that the thread is about!

In reply to climbwhenready:



But the ambulance crew wouldn't be able to work on a busy road unless the police have closed it first. My point was just that if you still had an intelligent person there they could easily determine that you need the full works and sort things out rather than talking to a computer.

In reply to gethin_allen:

I think we need to get over the politics of the separate call centres and have one call centre for all the services that dispatches as necessary.

Neil

In reply to gethin_allen:


But regardless of whether your call is initially answered by a human or a computer, they have one basic task - to pass you on to one of the call-handling centres for individual services. That job can be done by a computer, a human, or a trained monkey. They cannot put you through to two people simultaneously, you have got to pick one. If you ask for several, they'll probably put you through to the police as a priority (my guess, at least).

Once you are put through, you will be talking to somebody who is somewhat more trained to get further information from you. Regardless of whether you are speaking to police control, ambulance control, or whichever, it is then their job to recognise (one would hope...) that they are going to need to get other agencies involved as well, and coordinate that.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

Pretty much covered now, but always call police-mountain rescue. I came across a guy just below Mam tor who was collapsed and in destress. After dealing with him as much as i could and called 999 for help, they said over the phone that the ambulance paramedics wouldn't be able to fetch him the 100m along the path since it was uneven. So had to get mountain rescue to move him the 100m to the road (he was quite a large fellow, so even with a person under each arm wouldn't have allowed him to hobble).

In reply to Alex the Alex:

Agree with the responses so far illustrating the limited abilty of most ambulance services to deal with a casualty even a short distance away from the road, however some health boards will have access to a more mobile pre-hospital HEMS style service which would certainly be a better option than waiting for an MR team for a severely injured casusalty.

For those less severely injured, I wouldn't considering asking for assistance from MR unless there was no way I could get myself to hospital independantly.

The only time I've required the services of MR the call out time was around 100mins and this was in Glen Nevis, 5 minutes away from the road. My partner had an open ankle fracture. There were 5 non-injured present. Looking back we probably should have splinted it as well as we could and carried him out.

I only use this example to illustrate that self-rescue may well be the best option, not in anyway to critize the MR service.

I have worked for a US Mountain resuce service where we called out to a type II diabetic who felt "tired and hungry" 20 minuites up a fully tarmacked trail. He suddently felt better by the time we reached the valley floor where any further services would have to be paid for.

In reply to CharlieMack:

Does seem odd that if you slipped on a sopping wet bathroom floor ina flat at the top of several flights of cluttered stairs the ambulance crew would manage, but 100m of bumpy track is too much for them.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

The shortest callout I have attended was about 6 metres. EMAS couldn't get the cas over a drystone wall to the road so we were asked to assist.

Had quite a few like that. With the helimeds too. A wall between the cas and helicopter/ambulance is unsafe for 2 people in flat shoes carrying a spinal board.

In reply to Alex the Alex:

Almscliff and Slipstones are not remotely accessible to paramedics using ordinary wheeled stretchers or chairs.

Call 999, pick Police or Coastguard depending where you are, accurately describe your predicament and let them manage who attends.

jk

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:


They have tools and training for dealing with that. MR have tools and training for dealing with extraction over rough terrain. The only thing that could potentially be viewed as odd is that one is a volunteer service but then one service is a lot busier than the other.

jk

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

It's not odd, they're equipped and trained to deal with the former, and not the later. And it's just as much for the safety of the patient as it is the crew. Your 100m of bumpy track is a rubbish example, but 500m of muddy fields with a few walls might not look much but is not what they're equipped for.

I know that if it's safe they'll do it without calling MR, but people are heavy and if you're lifting them all day everyday it's nice to get help if it's needed and available.

In reply to AndyKeen:

out of interest what about a non mountain situation e.g. i live in hertfordshire and often walk and ride bike through countryside, no mountain rescue that I'm aware of, have just found these guys though: http://www.midshires.org.uk/index.html

But not sure if they are equipped for carrying casualties, seem more about finding missing people in both rural and urban environments.

In reply to d508934:

ALSAR teams have stretchers too and are trained for awkward carry offs.

AK.

In reply to AndyKeen:

great, so just a case of 999 > police > then ask for Lowland SAR?

In reply to d508934:
Nope ask for mountain rescue who will also deal with non mountain incidents, in fact for many teams more call outs are non mountainous.
If you are in an Alsar area that hopefully defaults to the local alsar team assuming the control centre are up to speed.!

edit: hertfordshire, yes it should be an alsar team