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Strikes me that the current system of showing a red card when a player commits two yellow-card offences isn't entirely fair, since the team gets penalised far more than if two separate players each commit one yellow-card offence. Surely two bad fouls from each team should result in broadly similar sanctions?
Is it about time football started thinking seriously about 10-minute sin bins for each and every yellow card?
Is it about time football started thinking seriously about 10-minute sin bins for each and every yellow card?
In reply to john arran:
I play and watch both Rugby and Football in my opinion it is definitely easier to interpret an incident as requiring a sin bin in Rugby than football. An incident leading to a Yellow in football can be more subjective. So, in my opinion I think 2 yellows leading to a red is a good compromise.
I play and watch both Rugby and Football in my opinion it is definitely easier to interpret an incident as requiring a sin bin in Rugby than football. An incident leading to a Yellow in football can be more subjective. So, in my opinion I think 2 yellows leading to a red is a good compromise.
Post edited at 20:45
In reply to Alan M:
Yes, but in Rugby, you still get a red for two yellows.
Additionally, you could remove the subjective nature of decisions by allowing a TV ref and/or allowing the referee to view it on a large screen.
Obviously, that would only be possible in games that are being televised!
Yes, but in Rugby, you still get a red for two yellows.
Additionally, you could remove the subjective nature of decisions by allowing a TV ref and/or allowing the referee to view it on a large screen.
Obviously, that would only be possible in games that are being televised!
In reply to FactorXXX:
I agree there would be ways around it. To me though and you might or might not agree with this one I don't think the nature of football and how it is played including the characteristics of the game in the way that it flows is suited to a TV official such as in Rugby etc. Though saying that the Ref could call the TV official to check an incident and allow the game to continue if the TV official says booking the player could be booked at that point without stopping the game etc. I am not in favour of using TV refs to decide on fouls leading to free kicks or diving etc.
I sort of like the football way of doing things in that if the officials didn't see it, the game just carries on.
> Yes, but in Rugby, you still get a red for two yellows.
> Additionally, you could remove the subjective nature of decisions by allowing a TV ref and/or allowing the referee to view it on a large screen.
> Obviously, that would only be possible in games that are being televised!
I agree there would be ways around it. To me though and you might or might not agree with this one I don't think the nature of football and how it is played including the characteristics of the game in the way that it flows is suited to a TV official such as in Rugby etc. Though saying that the Ref could call the TV official to check an incident and allow the game to continue if the TV official says booking the player could be booked at that point without stopping the game etc. I am not in favour of using TV refs to decide on fouls leading to free kicks or diving etc.
I sort of like the football way of doing things in that if the officials didn't see it, the game just carries on.
Post edited at 22:08
In reply to john arran:
The really unfair thing to my mind is that if an opposing player gets two yellows and sent off you may have had him on the pitch for 89 minutes. They are then banned for the next game(s) and their next opponents (ie your rivals in the league) face a weakened team. No idea how you get round that.
The really unfair thing to my mind is that if an opposing player gets two yellows and sent off you may have had him on the pitch for 89 minutes. They are then banned for the next game(s) and their next opponents (ie your rivals in the league) face a weakened team. No idea how you get round that.
In reply to john arran:
I see it as cards penalise the player, and therefore two transgressions leading to a red seems right to me. From a team point of view, its not ideal, but its just luck that will balance out in the end.
I see it as cards penalise the player, and therefore two transgressions leading to a red seems right to me. From a team point of view, its not ideal, but its just luck that will balance out in the end.
In reply to FactorXXX:
Normally you plan yellows.. if someone has a yellow, someone else does the man..
TBH today I thought Rooney was a tad unlucky.. I don't think it was dangerous, just very very cynical. Don't get me wrong, I see why it was a red, but I don't think it was nasty, just a deliberate kick to bring the man down, not do him damage, but he got it wrong so made it look worse, which is why he got the red…
But I actually think this sort of thing is something we need to see more of, cynical fouls.. Like against rival do back in '02? Maradonna back in 86.. just clip their heals before they hit danger spots.. italian and spanish players do it routinely
Normally you plan yellows.. if someone has a yellow, someone else does the man..
TBH today I thought Rooney was a tad unlucky.. I don't think it was dangerous, just very very cynical. Don't get me wrong, I see why it was a red, but I don't think it was nasty, just a deliberate kick to bring the man down, not do him damage, but he got it wrong so made it look worse, which is why he got the red…
But I actually think this sort of thing is something we need to see more of, cynical fouls.. Like against rival do back in '02? Maradonna back in 86.. just clip their heals before they hit danger spots.. italian and spanish players do it routinely
In reply to IainRUK:
Are you trolling or for real? For me the level of cynicism on display in football really puts it in a dim light alongside other sports...
> But I actually think this sort of thing is something we need to see more of, cynical fouls.. Like against rival do back in '02? Maradonna back in 86.. just clip their heals before they hit danger spots.. italian and spanish players do it routinely
Are you trolling or for real? For me the level of cynicism on display in football really puts it in a dim light alongside other sports...
In reply to john arran:
To get one yellow sometimes can very easily be foolish - hold your hand up and don't do it again. Or it can be very easily cynical as Iain says, 'if in doubt - take em out'
I used to 'crop people all the time as a right back, it's part of the game and you either need to be smart, or take the consequences. There are many times you end up 'taking one for the team' by clipping someone though on goal, knowing you are going to get a yellow...
...what I'm saying is... there would be plenty of full backs rubbing their hands for a 10 minute break in a sin-bin!
;0)
> Is it about time football started thinking seriously about 10-minute sin bins for each and every yellow card?
To get one yellow sometimes can very easily be foolish - hold your hand up and don't do it again. Or it can be very easily cynical as Iain says, 'if in doubt - take em out'
I used to 'crop people all the time as a right back, it's part of the game and you either need to be smart, or take the consequences. There are many times you end up 'taking one for the team' by clipping someone though on goal, knowing you are going to get a yellow...
...what I'm saying is... there would be plenty of full backs rubbing their hands for a 10 minute break in a sin-bin!
;0)
In reply to simonsnorkel:
like epo? men dressed as women? steroids? fake blood? yeah transparent fouls… awful…
like epo? men dressed as women? steroids? fake blood? yeah transparent fouls… awful…
In reply to john arran:
If I remember rightly, hockey has an interesting system.
Because certain fouls are easily repeatable (raising a stick above shoulder height for example) they have a 3 colour system. If you commit a minor foul that requires some scolding then you get a green card (triangle shaped) - however this isn't applicable only to you, its to the team. If anybody else on the same team commits the same foul then they get an instant yellow (square) which is a 10 minute sin-bin. You can obviously commit a yellow card offence on its own (threatening someone you'll smack them round the head with your stick). Two yellows ends up in a red (circle) card which is sent off as in football. Again you can commit a red card offence (actually deliberately smacking someone round the head with the stick)
If I remember rightly, hockey has an interesting system.
Because certain fouls are easily repeatable (raising a stick above shoulder height for example) they have a 3 colour system. If you commit a minor foul that requires some scolding then you get a green card (triangle shaped) - however this isn't applicable only to you, its to the team. If anybody else on the same team commits the same foul then they get an instant yellow (square) which is a 10 minute sin-bin. You can obviously commit a yellow card offence on its own (threatening someone you'll smack them round the head with your stick). Two yellows ends up in a red (circle) card which is sent off as in football. Again you can commit a red card offence (actually deliberately smacking someone round the head with the stick)
In reply to john arran:
I'm not into football at all but my 12 years old stepson is, unfortunately he's not been able to play at academy level for the last 6 months because he's been undergoing intensive physio for a very badly broken ankle from someone sliding him a clear 3 seconds after he'd passed the ball. He informs me that players (including him) are taught and told to 'take players down' by the coaches. I personally think that if this is true (which I believe it to be) Fifa (or whoever is in charge of grassroot football training) needs to tackle this issue with the upmost priority (no pun intended).
Mark.
I'm not into football at all but my 12 years old stepson is, unfortunately he's not been able to play at academy level for the last 6 months because he's been undergoing intensive physio for a very badly broken ankle from someone sliding him a clear 3 seconds after he'd passed the ball. He informs me that players (including him) are taught and told to 'take players down' by the coaches. I personally think that if this is true (which I believe it to be) Fifa (or whoever is in charge of grassroot football training) needs to tackle this issue with the upmost priority (no pun intended).
Mark.
In reply to browndog33:
There's a difference between studs up nasty challenges and just bringing a man down.
You are told to clip a player, deliberately break up play, happens constantly in rugby.. killing the ball.
WHat rooney did looks bad but the chance of an injury is minimal, its the studs up lunges which are a huge issue, worst is the defence 'I got the ball'.. it shouldn't matter.. rash dangerous challenges should lead to bans.
Rooney just got it wrong, made it look far worse than he should have done, so got a deserved red.
There's a difference between studs up nasty challenges and just bringing a man down.
You are told to clip a player, deliberately break up play, happens constantly in rugby.. killing the ball.
WHat rooney did looks bad but the chance of an injury is minimal, its the studs up lunges which are a huge issue, worst is the defence 'I got the ball'.. it shouldn't matter.. rash dangerous challenges should lead to bans.
Rooney just got it wrong, made it look far worse than he should have done, so got a deserved red.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
The problem with that approach is that it's fundamentally a team sport rather than an individual one. I think every foul worthy of a yellow card should be penalised in a way that hurts the team and at present that just isn't the case, as players seem to use a rota system to take players out by poorly-feigned mistiming, safe in the knowledge that a yellow is probably the worst they'll get and that won't really hurt the team at all. Sin-bins would at least force the team to regroup and play defensively for a while, breaking up the pattern and reducing their opportunities for attacking play.
> I see it as cards penalise the player, and therefore two transgressions leading to a red seems right to me. From a team point of view, its not ideal, but its just luck that will balance out in the end.
The problem with that approach is that it's fundamentally a team sport rather than an individual one. I think every foul worthy of a yellow card should be penalised in a way that hurts the team and at present that just isn't the case, as players seem to use a rota system to take players out by poorly-feigned mistiming, safe in the knowledge that a yellow is probably the worst they'll get and that won't really hurt the team at all. Sin-bins would at least force the team to regroup and play defensively for a while, breaking up the pattern and reducing their opportunities for attacking play.
In reply to browndog33:
I'm sorry, Mark, but you are confusing a very late (and dangerous) tackle on your stepson with (what I'd call) 'normal' aggressive play - where one player is imposing their presence on the match by imposing themselves on the opposition. You tend to notice that the better players in this age group are the ones that are more physically dominant. I doubt that footy is alone in this.
> He informs me that players (including him) are taught and told to 'take players down' by the coaches. I personally think that if this is true Fifa needs to tackle this issue with the upmost priority.
I'm sorry, Mark, but you are confusing a very late (and dangerous) tackle on your stepson with (what I'd call) 'normal' aggressive play - where one player is imposing their presence on the match by imposing themselves on the opposition. You tend to notice that the better players in this age group are the ones that are more physically dominant. I doubt that footy is alone in this.
In reply to john arran:
You could argue that a player on a yellow, facing a red, will be forced to play in a more circumspect manner for the remainder of the game which will affect the team's ability to defend effectively. I suppose that this is the same thing.
You could argue that a player on a yellow, facing a red, will be forced to play in a more circumspect manner for the remainder of the game which will affect the team's ability to defend effectively. I suppose that this is the same thing.
Post edited at 18:54
In reply to john arran:
Morty's point about a yellow card restricting a defender's leeway for foul play for the remainder of the game is a fundamental principle of the card system. And the problem with the sin bin as an alternative is that teams would likely react by playing (extra) negatively for the 10 minutes that they are down to 10 (or fewer) men, thereby spoiling the game as a spectacle.
Morty's point about a yellow card restricting a defender's leeway for foul play for the remainder of the game is a fundamental principle of the card system. And the problem with the sin bin as an alternative is that teams would likely react by playing (extra) negatively for the 10 minutes that they are down to 10 (or fewer) men, thereby spoiling the game as a spectacle.
In reply to john arran:
It would be better if two yellows = 10min sin bin + miss next game
Also, the rule about sending off player who concedes penalty is a silly double punishment, should be yellow + pen or red if outSide the area
It would be better if two yellows = 10min sin bin + miss next game
Also, the rule about sending off player who concedes penalty is a silly double punishment, should be yellow + pen or red if outSide the area
In reply to john arran:
It depends on which League you're talking about.
In the Prem at the moment all cards are well down in number and the number double yellows has dropped to about 25% of reds ( 10 this season) from 50% or more.
The Prem is the lowest in Europe (IIRC) and players from English teams very low in the Champions League.
So it looks like it is working very well to stop repeat offending by the same player, although others are saying that it's because the refs have actually got more lenient.
If you look at the lower leagues it's a completely different story, look up the record of one Paul Tierney, he's given 4 reds in 10 games this season and 13 reds in 35 games last term!
It depends on which League you're talking about.
In the Prem at the moment all cards are well down in number and the number double yellows has dropped to about 25% of reds ( 10 this season) from 50% or more.
The Prem is the lowest in Europe (IIRC) and players from English teams very low in the Champions League.
So it looks like it is working very well to stop repeat offending by the same player, although others are saying that it's because the refs have actually got more lenient.
If you look at the lower leagues it's a completely different story, look up the record of one Paul Tierney, he's given 4 reds in 10 games this season and 13 reds in 35 games last term!
In reply to john arran:
I think it only works if you think of the red card as a deterrent rather than as a punishment - ie the threat of the red card does far more good in keeping most games relatively clean than the slight unfairness an actual (rare) red card causes
I think it only works if you think of the red card as a deterrent rather than as a punishment - ie the threat of the red card does far more good in keeping most games relatively clean than the slight unfairness an actual (rare) red card causes
In reply to john arran:
Oh and I don't think football is as atritional as rugby so the result of a sin bin will be 10 men behind the ball fr 10 minutes which isn't going to be great viewing
Oh and I don't think football is as atritional as rugby so the result of a sin bin will be 10 men behind the ball fr 10 minutes which isn't going to be great viewing
In reply to batterj2:
Sounds similar to canoe polo.
Green card - Minor infraction, going for the ball with a paddle when it is in hands reach of someone else, obstruction etc. You get the card and a telling off but carry on.
Yellow card - Getting a couple of green cards, you have been warned or something that could have been more serious such as ramming the side of someone with your boat where someone could get hurt easily. Sent off until the end of the half.
Red card - Getting a couple of yellow cards or doing something dangerous, ramming someone's side at speed, pinning someone under water, Sent off for the rest of the match (possibly tournament depending on how bad it is).
Before getting the red card, unless you do something very dangerous you get a whole load of warnings and often will get removed by your team.
Sounds similar to canoe polo.
Green card - Minor infraction, going for the ball with a paddle when it is in hands reach of someone else, obstruction etc. You get the card and a telling off but carry on.
Yellow card - Getting a couple of green cards, you have been warned or something that could have been more serious such as ramming the side of someone with your boat where someone could get hurt easily. Sent off until the end of the half.
Red card - Getting a couple of yellow cards or doing something dangerous, ramming someone's side at speed, pinning someone under water, Sent off for the rest of the match (possibly tournament depending on how bad it is).
Before getting the red card, unless you do something very dangerous you get a whole load of warnings and often will get removed by your team.
In reply to simonsnorkel:
Iain is completely right. At a certain competitive level, rules are essentially a price list. Does it cost me or my team more to take the expected penalty for a rule violation, or take the goal (or whatever score the opponent would gain)? The Suarez handball at the 2010 world cup is a prime football example for this calculation.
Of course, most sportsmen also like to be safe. To use an example from my sport (judo) most people would not condone attacks against the neck or knee, while bending an opponents finger to prevent a stranglehold (points penalty and interruption of the fight vs. loss by submission) is standard fare and the expected response.
CB
Iain is completely right. At a certain competitive level, rules are essentially a price list. Does it cost me or my team more to take the expected penalty for a rule violation, or take the goal (or whatever score the opponent would gain)? The Suarez handball at the 2010 world cup is a prime football example for this calculation.
Of course, most sportsmen also like to be safe. To use an example from my sport (judo) most people would not condone attacks against the neck or knee, while bending an opponents finger to prevent a stranglehold (points penalty and interruption of the fight vs. loss by submission) is standard fare and the expected response.
CB
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