UKC

So David Cameron is so ignorant of British industrial life and economics that he thinks we can drop metric measure?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/30/david-cameron-schools-shoul...

It would be nice to think the Guardian is just having a wee joke but instead it seems even a Conservative Prime Minister really is that out of touch with reality.


Only the USA and Myanmar are not metric. Everything has been based on Metric in the UK since 1963 and thare are no separate standards for imperial measure since that time. The British pioneered some metric units and metric components as far back as the mid 19th century.


(And what is this 40 years thing? Were you so far behind in England?)

In reply to Jim Fraser:

It is worrying. However I suspect there is a small demographic this idea appeals to that he is currying favour with at conference season and we will hear nothing of this again.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

He was asked specifically about pounds and ounces, and followed it up by saying he thought it was similar to miles and pints. I don't think he was advocating a return to Whitworth. Enjoy your half litre of 80 shilling!

In reply to Jim Fraser:

I'd ban imperial completely, its such an illogical system! When I take kids climbing, they often ask me how many feet high is the crag. I refuse to do the imperial conversion for them, and just tell them in meters. I figure that if they have seen how high 10 meters is in reality, then they will start to get a feel for it. Let's get with the modern world, eh?

In reply to Turdus torquatus:

I didn't see the programme, but this is a quote from the article: 'The present curriculum, which Tory ministers have said they will skew towards imperial measures'

In reply to girlymonkey:

I suppose you could conclude from Cameron's answer to a question about pounds and ounces that it is in the Tory manifesto to return to imperial measures. If you wanted to.

In reply to girlymonkey:


I don't know 29,000 ft sounds a lot higher than 8839m......

As for £sd. They were much easier to use and more flexible and divisible than metric money is. I wouldn't go back now, but it's pity we ever changed.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Sorry, as much as I agree that Metric is a much better system, back in the real world there is a need to understand and know imperial systems. If you ever have to deal with america, which is lets face it not unlikely you WILL need to know imperial measurements as impractical as they are. Just saying its wrong is not good enough.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm not advocating a return to imperial, but it isn't illogical, it just isn't base 10 or necessarily what you are used to.

In reply to mike kann:

The rest of Europe manage fine without understanding them. Surely america will catch up with rest of us one day. There could be a case fit schools covering it a little, but schools teaching in predominantly seems really backwards.

In reply to The New NickB:

No, its base 12, except when its base 14, or 16! Pretty illogical to me!

In reply to girlymonkey:


I agree. Who is advocating that?

In reply to Trangia:

Yeah, but 16km sounds bigger than 10 miles!

In reply to Turdus torquatus:

Cameron! 'The present curriculum, which Tory ministers have said they will skew towards imperial measures'

In reply to girlymonkey:

They capture our scientific understanding of the natural world at the time, what could be more logical.

In reply to Jim Fraser:



And that's not consistent either. US to UK gallon conversion is a treat

In reply to girlymonkey:

There is the perception in several quarters that Metric is an abomination foisted upon the British public by the evil European heirs of Napoleon Bonaparte. By going anti-metric he is not so subtly courting the anti-EU vote. It is all bollocks of course, anyone who actually has to use weights and measures wants to see imperial back like they would the black death. Same goes for £sd, I don't ever want to see that back, I had to learn it as a child due to an insane headmaster and I just found it ridiculous.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I must have miswatched Newsnight.

In reply to girlymonkey:


The imperial system evolved over time rather than being designed. Measures used were chosen or developed to be easily divisible - the same reasonn we have have 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour and 24 in a day, as well as 360 degrees in a circle. Not sayiong it is logical but it worked well enough.

I still cook in imperial because the numbers are generally smaller and easier to remember - 4oz flour, 1/2 pint milk, 1 egg > pancake

In reply to girlymonkey:


No, the rest of Europe does what everyone else does when faced with American drawings marked up in inches, circuit boards laid out on 1.27mm grid or a machine built with 3/8 screws... sigh, fiddle with their computer settings a bit and get on with it. Aviation is still mainly imperial too though again, there's an unhelpful mix of units that has on occasion caused problems.

Familiarity with both systems is still a necessity for many people and being able to freely convert inches to mm, feet to meters pounds to kg in your head is a valuable time saver whether you're an engineer, or a chef. I'd suggest perhaps your kids wanting crag heights in ft might benefit from being shown how to work it out mentally (multiply by 3.3 which is trivial: meters x3 plus 1/10 of the result).

All that said, Cameron's notion that we should be reverting to imperial units in schools is utterly barking.

jk

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Are you sure about the 1963 date? I was born in 1966, and certainly remember being taught how to convert imperial to metric, "A litre of water is a pint and three quarters".

However this obsession with imperial measures is crazy. Show a pile of meat or sugar to one of the "I only understand pounds and ounces" types and ask them to guess what half a pound is, and you'll get quantities ranging from 2 Oz to half a stone.

In reply to girlymonkey:


I think that would be a shame. The imperial system is indeed illogical, but it is a human measurement system that still works very well. However, it is about picking the measurement system that suits what you happen to be doing. That said, technology has made obsolete the requirement for many measures. For example, there is no need to measure the depth of the sea with a lead and line in fathoms because you just switch on your depth finder machine.

In reply to 999thAndy:
Of course, 4oz is about 100g and 1/2 pint is about 300ml so for a pancake 1:3:1 flour:milk:egg which is of course, just as easy. If not more so.

In reply to 999thAndy:

what is the imperial scale for eggs?

Apart from small, medium and large

In reply to 999thAndy:



You must have a big pan!

In reply to imkevinmc:



Funny how they're sold in 12's or 6's isn't it? surely 10's would be more logical

In reply to XXXX:

I just find the numbers "4" and "1/2" easier to remember than "100" and "300". Maybe I'm a bit thick ...

In reply to 999thAndy:

Our local tesco now sells them in 10s (and 6, and 15!)

In reply to jkarran:

Wasn't there a fault in the Hubble telescope because of some imperial/metric conversion issues? And does anyone remember the Douglas Arms - even in the 90s the landlord insisted in dealing in £sd? Mind you, he was mad too.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Er no. They don't. Try working in engineering and you'll find out. America is not about to change and mixing and matching units is a standard thing. I've seen drawings with both systems on the same sheet. If you didn't understand them you'd be proper double f*cked. Same goes for Whitworth, UNC, UNF, BSP, BSS threads which are all commonplace in certain regions of the world. Indeed every tap in britain uses an imperial thread. Then there's standard tube sizes which are given in metric these days but are infact still imperial sizes. Even in Europe. As I said, it's simply not good enough to say its silly, lets not use it. Kids NEED to know about imperial measurements AND Metric. It's a fact of life whether you get your knickers in a twist or not.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

No - that was a joint Mars mission between the US and Russians. The Russians were working in metric and the US in imperial. It was only after the launch that this minor oversight was discovered and as a result all the calcs were wrong and the spacecraft crashed into the planet... or something like that.

In reply to jkarran:


Doesn't the US military operate in metric? You'd think other professions that have cause to involve themselves with the rest of the world would do likewise (scientists, engineers etc), even if - like us - the American population still use imperial day-to-day.


Or whatever the Minecraft equivalent would be?

In reply to Jim Fraser:

....
and milk / beer still comes in pints, roads are measured and signed in miles.

In reply to graeme jackson:

I thought that came in 568ml containers?

I'm with you on the pint though. Half a litre just doesn't quite quench the thirst where a pint is just right!

In reply to mike kann:

Certainly in electronics, the US is at least becoming metric savvy and you can hold a sensible discussion in metric. Other branches of engineering may still be more parochial though.

In reply to Jim Fraser:
I remember reading a book about weights and measures and how we had arrived where we are. Although on one hand it looks obvious I was still surprised to find out that a mile was based on 1,000 paces, the clue being in the 'mil' of the word. I think an acre was the size of field one man and a horse could plough in a day or something like that. It does appear that imperial measures came from some form of practical background as arbitrary as they may seem to us today.
I use both and can drive to a location x miles away, be aware that I'm walking x kilometres which is equivalent to x miles ascending x metres. I fill up my car in litres but note the mpg and when I get home I record my walk/climb distance in miles and then go for a pint which costs a metric £3.25. On the way home I might remember to buy a litre of milk.
In summer I note the temperature in degrees F and will shortly be changing my car outside temperature to read degrees C for winter.

I personally don't have any issues with any of this, but metric is much easier to remember and work with. I don't think schools should teach imperial other than explain those commonly in use - miles/pints/stones perhaps? (EDIT - and feet/inches!)
I'm so used to the mile I wouldn't want to lose it but I suppose it could be done at a cost, I'm not bothered about stones for weight but sorry, the pint must stay.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Beware the 2 pint beer carry out containers - they are made in the US so they are not the same imperial pints as the ones we use (they are smaller). If buying a carry out make sure they actually squeeze two real pints in.

The older I get, the less bothered I am about the sanctity of the pint - 0.5 l is near enough.

In reply to mike kann:


But there's not much to understand. You need to be able to identify the unit, and know how convert it to metric and back. SI is the globally accepted standard.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


....for which Google is perfect

In reply to drmarten:

Like you, I'll mix and match systems as to whatever is most convenient with one exception - temperature, Fahrenheit is so illogical that I've ignored it for years. I'm old enough to have been taught in imperial only but much prefer the Metric system.

As for Cameron's pronouncement: it's a party conference so I treat its content much as Kenny Everett's speech at the Tory conference many moons ago.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

But no one in Britain would be able to have any concept of how heavy a baby was if we didn't stick with imperial measurements.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

At least we don't do the US thing of measuring all recipe ingredients in "cups".

"4 cups of apples" ... what the ...

What's astonishing me is that from a speech promising: More anti immigrant policies, tearing up the human rights act (Seriously? WTF) and big tax cuts for the well paid while our public services are still in a downward spiral it's the imperial measurements tosh we're talking about. And this in the week our national credit rating was downgraded.

Edit: It wasn't this week we were downgraded. Check dates on news!
Edit again: I appear to have got distracted mid rant... now tidied up to make it readable

We probably deserve this.
jk

In reply to GrahamD:

Many bars in Paris sell beer by the 'pint', although its really 0.5l. And its common to buy a livre (pound) of fruit or vegetables at the market, although that's 0.5 kg

In reply to jkarran:



Good point.

In reply to jkarran:

Steady on - we were threatened (by Standard and Poors, though why anyone still listens to them I have no idea), that we *might* be downgraded if we left the EU...

But still a pretty shabby and pathetic conference all the same.

In reply to Timmd:

Not really. There's an active thread were the deficit and taxing the rich are being discussed. Immigration comes up regularly.

It's sometimes a bit more fun to pick on something more trivial or less discussed to demonstrate how thick somebody is...... lets not get too Roundhead about things.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

From Wikipedia: On 23 February 2013 Moody's downgraded UK credit rating from AAA to Aa1

It popped up as a news story on the BBC alongside the party speeches but I missed the date on it.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Old news. The US was similarly downgraded if I remember correctly. And has the world stopped spinning since then?

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Simple it may be but its fairly common to see people screwing it up. As a thing to teach kids, is it really that much of an issue to teach them about both metric and Imperial? Its hardly a massively complex job to do is it. As for conversion, as pointed out above, Hubbles mirror was screwed by european engineers not converting things correctly. SI may be globally accepted apart from one of the major economies in the world still uses it as a matter of course. Don't get me wrong, I think America should be using what the rest of the world use, but they don't and no amount of bleating is going to get them to change. Imperial is here for a good while yet so kids SHOULD learn about it.

In reply to mike kann:

And, dealing with the U.S. you will need to know that their pints are smaller than imperial pints. Which is as it should be.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Perhaps this why they forced Ken Clarke out. He's frequently pointed out that for decades we've been in default of our treaty obligations to bring in full metrication. We just need to get on with it.

I'm starting to regress. I use metric for cooking (years of lab work) and Celsius for everything except tropical fish but I can never remember my height and weight in metric units (but then I'm a bit vague about that in any units). I'd be happy to be nudged in the right direction by a bit of government leadership but it's all going Gove and so I guess government policy on this will be like their education 'reforms' - ie however it was done when he was a lad.

In reply to ByEek:


My mistake, as I've acknowledged I missed the date on the article.
jk

In reply to climbwhenready:

Its actually very practical for cooking. You don't need to weigh everything - just pour-and-bake!

In reply to mike kann:

Don't be so defeatist. I didn't believe that the US would ever give up its 'first to invent' patent system just because everywhere else is 'first to file' - but they did.

In reply to MG:


In general, it makes a lot of sense. But how do you pour apples? This was a real recipe from a couple of weeks ago!

In reply to Jim Fraser:

I agree with you. However, certain things will always be measured in imperial - babies' weights, distances between settlements and penis length.

In reply to mike kann:


America is changing slowly towards metric, certainly in electronics.

The best thing would be to teach metric in schools and just have a side note that some crazy historical units have not completely died out yet.

When you consider that many Imperial units aren't even standardised across countries (pint, gallon, pound mean different quantities in different places) it becomes obvious the last thing we should be doing is teaching them to another generation.

In reply to mike kann:


I don't think anyone's going to argue that imperial units should ever be mentioned in school, but teaching the whole alternative system would be a waste of time. All a kid needs to learn is the fundamental principle of conversion of units of measurement, which is something they should be learning anyway whether you use imperial or make up your own arbitrary measurement system, and that only requires one or two examples.

In fact it could be argued that using your own arbitrary system would be better, as making stuff up tends to capture kids imagination, and if they get that you can define a "Samantha" as the length of Samantha's hair, and a "Ben" as the volume of water Ben's forearm displaces from a basin, and then measure and convert between those units and SI, then you know they're understanding the principle and not just learning conversions by rote.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

This thread seems to be doing a UKIP on Cameron, taking a phrase, enlarging on it, turning this into a strange fear - the need to use more than one system of units at the same time - and then creating a whole storm in a tea cup...oops! Should I have brought tea into the conversation, it is such an imperial drink

Well done, you've outKipped the UKIP§

In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:

Isn't yours measured in metres?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Now your putting words in Cameron's mouth!

In reply to ByEek:

I've never heard of a joint US-Russian Mars mission but the US lost a Mars probe in the 90s because of a unit mix-up between Nasa and a contractor.

Mind you it's not surprising when you see so many asserted "facts" on the internet!

In reply to wercat:


You are quite right. I knew it was NASA and another entity. Just couldn't quite remember.

In reply to mike kann:


Metric should dominate because it is a logical and inter-related system that is exclusively used by most of our trading partners. If you are in the engineering industry and cannot take onboard a new system of measurement then you are just taking up space. Different issue.



Too much pandering to American incompetence is ruining the world in so many awful ways. It should not be encouraged.



And I have drawn thousands like that. Doesn't change my position.



And nearly every still or video camera in the world has a 1/4" or 3/8" Whitworth thread in the bottom. A nice memorial to the genius of Joseph Whitworth who gave us the standardised screw thread and many other innovative advances.

In reply to Trangia:

Sweet Jesus...really?

One of the footnotes from Terry Pratchett's "Good Omens" sprang to mind just there:

"Note for young people and Americans: the original British monetary system:

Two farthings = One Ha'penny. Two ha'pennies = One Penny. Three pennies = A Thruppenny Bit. Two Thruppences = A Sixpence. Two Sixpences = One Shilling, or Bob. Two Bob = A Florin. One Florin and one Sixpence = Half a Crown. Four Half Crowns = Ten Bob Note. Two Ten Bob Notes = One Pound (or 240 pennies). One Pound and One Shilling = One Guinea.

The British resisted decimalized currency for a long time because they thought it was too complicated."


I fall into the "young" bracket. Well, young enough to have not experienced pre-decimalized currency.

I can't imagine how anything could be more easily divisble than base-10 numbering?

In reply to Ridge:

The Metric Weights and Measures Act 1864 legally recognised the use of metric.

The Weights and Measures Act 1963 made metric the principal system and defined ALL measurement in relation to metric standards. Thus, then and now, the definition of the imperial yard is 0.9144 metres.

The UK had a 10 year plan for metrication overseen by a Metrication Board. One aspect I remember clearly was that the Construction Industry Training Board had a programme for the construction industry. My father was on the local metrication committee. One of their major target dates was 1969 but I don't remember the details. I remember very clearly that what really screwed it up for the construction industry was that the architects were late in the programme and not on-side in a meaningful way. That in turn led to suppliers dragging their feet and the whole thing turned chaotic.

It is definitely the case that in 1965 primary education in Inverness was aimed at an entirely metric future.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Having lived abroad for over a decade and now back in the UK, I think it has got worse. I went through school in the late 70s and 80s and we never learnt any imperial measurements at all, but there is now more pandering to the bloody-minded little Englanders who insist they can't understand metric than before. The BBC seems to be doing it all the time. It's bizarre because I don't know who these people are really unless all the social power is now with a cohort of people 50+, because I don't think many people who are my age or younger really understand imperial, or if they do they have only learnt it by having it foisted on them by wider society. It's annoyed me greatly that having to reset my GPS to give me the speed in MPH, it now tells me "in 1000 feet turn left". I don't know what a 1000 foot looks like without turning it into approximate metres.

The Australians laugh at us for not just changing the road signs to kms 30 years ago and getting on with it like they did.

In reply to TobyA:


And the Irish.

Like many other things, this has changed in Ireland but it is all too much for the thick British.

In reply to Ciro:

Monkeygirl was. She was saying she bans kids in her control from using imperial. Which is just silly.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

SI rather than metric, please!

In reply to mike kann:

Fair point, that's a bit OTT, but as long as she's not teaching maths or science I guess it's not a problem.

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Oh FFS, in every post I've said, I don't think Imperial is where we should be heading, I've said that in many areas of engineering it is a simple fact of life. We are still in an age when plenty of machinists were trained using thous and inches and it helps to understand what they're on about. Metric DOES dominate, but imperial is still important to know and understand because on of the major economies of the world, and one of the major industries of that economies, rightly or wrongly still adheres to it. Do you honestly think us standing here tutting about it is going to make Boeing or NASA or McDonell Douglas give a damn? They will just carry on as is, and good luck to them. In the mean time, if you are an mechanical engineer, and you work with aerospace companies, you HAVE to know imperial. End of. And that will be the case for the forseeable future - at least a generation. Why is that such an abhorrent statement and worthy of denying? Its simply the truth.

In reply to Jim Fraser:



Why is it a sign of "thickness", conservatism, individualism, stubbornness, I'll grant you but not thickness. BTW, when you're driving which means more to you speed in mph or kmh, and for the power of an engine BHP or KW?

All in all metric unit for design, conception etc have been the rule for decades in Britain - I learnt them at school 50 years ago in the very South of England, along with Avoirdupois, what the old system was called, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and I'm very far from being a fan of Cameron. It's this sort of over the toppness that helps the Tories and UKIP.

In reply to ThunderCat:
I love Good Omens!

I haven't experienced pre-decimalised currency either, but anything based around base 12 (or multiples thereof) is more divisible than base 10. Because 10 doesn't divide by very much.

1 lb of apples = 4 shillings => can I have 1/3 lb => 1 shilling and 4 pence
1 lb of apples = 2 pounds => can I have 1/3 lb => 66.666 p

For example. I made those numbers up!

That doesn't necessarily make it better, but it depends on what you want from a numbering scheme and how you think.

EDIT: the place where they messed this up is 20 shillings in a pound. It should be 24.

In reply to climbwhenready:


With a guinea being 25/- ?

but 21/- for a guinea is a better mark up showing a better extra percentage return for professions, particularly hard up lawyers

The demise of the guinea hit hard......

In reply to climbwhenready:


Fixed that for you. My 1980s primary school taught rounding

jk

In reply to climbwhenready:

1/3 pound? would that be 5.333333 oz then!

In reply to mike kann:


McDonnell Douglas doesn't exist any more. It got bought by Boeing. Imperial measures are going the same way and schools should be focusing on teaching things that will be useful over the kids working lives (i.e. in the future) not things that were important in the past and are still somewhat relevant today.

In reply to mike kann:


No, it wasn't. Hubble's mirror was screwed by people refusing to believe the instruments that told them it was out of spec as they were building and testing it. That was mostly down to time and cost pressures - basically, human & organisational failings.

As already mentioned in this thread once, the metric/imperial screw up was on a Mars mission.

In reply to Martin W:

As already mentioned in this thread once, the metric/imperial screw up was on a Mars mission.

Similar to this (right at the end): -

youtube.com/watch?v=6OalIW1yL-k&

In reply to pneame:


Jings!
What then is our equivalent of a ten gallon hat ?

In reply to Ciro:


This ^^^^ !

In reply to Ciro:




Isn't that how the Fahrenheit system came about? I remember thermometers under armpits and mixing salt, ice and water in buckets being used to devise it. Or I could be imagining something from high school physics that never happened!

In reply to jkarran:
I'd suggest perhaps your kids wanting crag heights in ft might benefit from being shown how to work it out mentally (multiply by 3.3 which is trivial: meters x3 plus 1/10 of the result).


Sadly, I suspect that this would be beyond most kids mathematical ability - without a calculator!

In reply to Martin W:
Hubbles mirror was screwed up because the design of the null optic used in the interferometer that was measuring the mirror's form wasn't correct. Essentially it was manufactured to an incorrect blueprint.