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I've recently finally managed to do both right eliminate and goliath, but on both I was a bit stuck at what to do with a certain width of crack and can't seem to find any specific tips/demos online for them.
The bits I'm thinking off are on goliath from standing on the first triangular nubbin on the right, to the level of the good foothold, and on RE, the section where the crack widens again past the narrows over the overhang. On both of these, try as I might, I couldn't work out how to make upward progress in this width. I could rest pretty well on heel-toe cams in the back of the crack or on chicken wings but any attempt at going up seemed to result in either going nowhere or toppling out.
In the end I used some terrible face holds on RE and laybacked Goliath but for future reference and just in case these two options are not viable, how are you supposed to make upward progress on this width crack?
The bits I'm thinking off are on goliath from standing on the first triangular nubbin on the right, to the level of the good foothold, and on RE, the section where the crack widens again past the narrows over the overhang. On both of these, try as I might, I couldn't work out how to make upward progress in this width. I could rest pretty well on heel-toe cams in the back of the crack or on chicken wings but any attempt at going up seemed to result in either going nowhere or toppling out.
In the end I used some terrible face holds on RE and laybacked Goliath but for future reference and just in case these two options are not viable, how are you supposed to make upward progress on this width crack?
In reply to JamieSparkes:
Good question. I'm keen to see some of the replies also.
My understanding is that heel toe jamming on the edge of the crack and downwards palming are the preferred techniques. I have found these terribly hard to execute but did manage to stay in the crack on Goliath.
Despite my lithe frame I am a big fan of pushing out my belly as a wedge technique too.
I do like an offwidth struggle.
Good question. I'm keen to see some of the replies also.
My understanding is that heel toe jamming on the edge of the crack and downwards palming are the preferred techniques. I have found these terribly hard to execute but did manage to stay in the crack on Goliath.
Despite my lithe frame I am a big fan of pushing out my belly as a wedge technique too.
I do like an offwidth struggle.
Post edited at 13:36
In reply to JamieSparkes:
Me thinks these peeps might have some advice...
http://www.widefetish.com/
Me thinks these peeps might have some advice...
http://www.widefetish.com/
In reply to JamieSparkes:
A bit of technical swimming is called for in both cases,both with right shoulder in.The crimp method on R Elim is quite a bit easier.I top roped it yesterday.Technique will only take you so far,then it's down to core strength,fitness and determination.The last part of Ramshaw Crack needs those last 3 more than owt else...
A bit of technical swimming is called for in both cases,both with right shoulder in.The crimp method on R Elim is quite a bit easier.I top roped it yesterday.Technique will only take you so far,then it's down to core strength,fitness and determination.The last part of Ramshaw Crack needs those last 3 more than owt else...
In reply to JamieSparkes:
This (and the others in the same series) might be worth a look
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4669
This (and the others in the same series) might be worth a look
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4669
In reply to Carless:
My goodness I disagree with the wideboyz on an offwidth technicality. I was about to suggest the outside foot technique to the OP but read they say the inner leg doesnt hold any weight which must be an error as when you readjust the combination or arm and inner leg keep you in place. When pushing using the outer foot, the inner foot can also sometimes be used as a pivit point keeping your upper body tight. Maybe they are so good they can hold their whole weight on the arm...I cant though!
My goodness I disagree with the wideboyz on an offwidth technicality. I was about to suggest the outside foot technique to the OP but read they say the inner leg doesnt hold any weight which must be an error as when you readjust the combination or arm and inner leg keep you in place. When pushing using the outer foot, the inner foot can also sometimes be used as a pivit point keeping your upper body tight. Maybe they are so good they can hold their whole weight on the arm...I cant though!
1
In reply to JamieSparkes:
.
This is taken from Climber mag interview with the wide boys.
Chicken Wings
"The most popular and easiest technique to acquire at first, bur strangely the one you'll rely on the least when your technique is developed."
.
This is taken from Climber mag interview with the wide boys.
Chicken Wings
"The most popular and easiest technique to acquire at first, bur strangely the one you'll rely on the least when your technique is developed."
In reply to Offwidth:
Did you say this, Steve, in complete seriousness, or a bit tongue-in-cheek? Because it's so funny. It's a bit like you saying that I disagree (as a grade 3 piano player) with Maurizio Pollini or Piotr Anderszewski on piano fingering techniques! The Wide Boyz just happen to have climbed some of the very hardest off-width cracks in the world. (BTW, I play the piano at about Grade 3!) I know quite a lot from climbing quite a few nasty chimneys and off-widths at High Rocks ... On a steep off-width the outside leg must be doing just about all the work. The inner leg holds you in, and stops you losing contact with the crag, the outer leg provides the propulsion. You yourself say the inner foot often acts as a pivot, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll hold your weight if the outer foot goes. Of course, it's very different if you can get inside the crack bodily, but i don't think we're talking about that. But even on something like Peapod - a lot wider - the same principle applies. The truth is that the arms/hands MUST be doing quite clever and useful things to take most of your weight momentarily while you move up the outside leg. The inner leg typically does a kind of shuffling motion, udging upwards and then getting re-jammed and holding your weight rather tenuously. I suspect the main point the Wide Boyz are making is that on long and hard off-widths you're doomed if you don't use your outer leg properly, because you'll be trying to take too much weight on your inner leg which is almost certainly going to be on the wrong side of your centre of gravity.
> My goodness I disagree with the wideboyz on an offwidth technicality. I was about to suggest the outside foot technique to the OP but read they say the inner leg doesnt hold any weight which must be an error as when you readjust the combination or arm and inner leg keep you in place. When pushing using the outer foot, the inner foot can also sometimes be used as a pivit point keeping your upper body tight. Maybe they are so good they can hold their whole weight on the arm...I cant though!
Did you say this, Steve, in complete seriousness, or a bit tongue-in-cheek? Because it's so funny. It's a bit like you saying that I disagree (as a grade 3 piano player) with Maurizio Pollini or Piotr Anderszewski on piano fingering techniques! The Wide Boyz just happen to have climbed some of the very hardest off-width cracks in the world. (BTW, I play the piano at about Grade 3!) I know quite a lot from climbing quite a few nasty chimneys and off-widths at High Rocks ... On a steep off-width the outside leg must be doing just about all the work. The inner leg holds you in, and stops you losing contact with the crag, the outer leg provides the propulsion. You yourself say the inner foot often acts as a pivot, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll hold your weight if the outer foot goes. Of course, it's very different if you can get inside the crack bodily, but i don't think we're talking about that. But even on something like Peapod - a lot wider - the same principle applies. The truth is that the arms/hands MUST be doing quite clever and useful things to take most of your weight momentarily while you move up the outside leg. The inner leg typically does a kind of shuffling motion, udging upwards and then getting re-jammed and holding your weight rather tenuously. I suspect the main point the Wide Boyz are making is that on long and hard off-widths you're doomed if you don't use your outer leg properly, because you'll be trying to take too much weight on your inner leg which is almost certainly going to be on the wrong side of your centre of gravity.
In reply to JamieSparkes:
Watch the videos of giggling crack Pete et al, there's one where the outside leg is virtually doing nothing and failure is the result, compared to the other clips where the outside leg/foot is key to upward movement.
Funny how after the wide boys training they went back to giggling and lapped it twice on the solo!
Watch the videos of giggling crack Pete et al, there's one where the outside leg is virtually doing nothing and failure is the result, compared to the other clips where the outside leg/foot is key to upward movement.
Funny how after the wide boys training they went back to giggling and lapped it twice on the solo!
In reply to JamieSparkes:
I like chicken wings, home done with my own marinade as opposed to the tiny sweet ones bought from supermarkets, but they sure are an ace smack
Not sure they help with my climbing though
I like chicken wings, home done with my own marinade as opposed to the tiny sweet ones bought from supermarkets, but they sure are an ace smack
Not sure they help with my climbing though
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Yes I am..... some body weight will often be held in the inner leg. Its completely irrelevant in its impact to anything else they say but it is true in terms of the physics. As a practical illustration on the right sections in the up-to-just-over-vertical low extreme stuff that I've tried/done I can sometimes (party trick or more likely incompetance as I had to change legs and now have gear on the wrong side) hold on the inner leg, arms free and with the outer leg on holdless rock on the outside: so am I levitating (and yes I know the other leg takes some of the weight)? It works as the leg can lock heel-toe and at the knee/hip. Also if the inner leg is more 'vertical' and locked heel toe alngside the outer leg it takes weight through simple resolution of the forces. In your delightful analogy Mauritzio has made an error explaining the mechanics of how the piano hammers operate.
Yes I am..... some body weight will often be held in the inner leg. Its completely irrelevant in its impact to anything else they say but it is true in terms of the physics. As a practical illustration on the right sections in the up-to-just-over-vertical low extreme stuff that I've tried/done I can sometimes (party trick or more likely incompetance as I had to change legs and now have gear on the wrong side) hold on the inner leg, arms free and with the outer leg on holdless rock on the outside: so am I levitating (and yes I know the other leg takes some of the weight)? It works as the leg can lock heel-toe and at the knee/hip. Also if the inner leg is more 'vertical' and locked heel toe alngside the outer leg it takes weight through simple resolution of the forces. In your delightful analogy Mauritzio has made an error explaining the mechanics of how the piano hammers operate.
Post edited at 11:57
In reply to JamieSparkes:
What an amusing discussion.Read Tom Patey in Games Climbers Play.
The point of climbing is surely to find out for oneself how to progress.
Much more fun than trying to conform to what has been suggested ont tinternet.Particularly with offwidths,one's OWN offwidth technique is best.
'natural'climbers will generally be better than those who have to be led by the hand re technique.The cliff is the teacher.Attend there.
What an amusing discussion.Read Tom Patey in Games Climbers Play.
The point of climbing is surely to find out for oneself how to progress.
Much more fun than trying to conform to what has been suggested ont tinternet.Particularly with offwidths,one's OWN offwidth technique is best.
'natural'climbers will generally be better than those who have to be led by the hand re technique.The cliff is the teacher.Attend there.
In reply to Offwidth:
Levitating, or Leavitating?
> I can sometimes (party trick or more likely incompetance as I had to change legs and now have gear on the wrong side) hold on the inner leg, arms free and with the outer leg on holdless rock on the outside: so am I levitating
Levitating, or Leavitating?
1
In reply to paul mitchell:
But isn't getting a few pointers which you can use or discard part of the learning process?
This had some interesting stuff on it:
http://www.climbing.com/skill/dont-just-wing-it/
I've learnt plenty of hings from others I wouldn't have worked out myself without a huge amount of trial and error.
But isn't getting a few pointers which you can use or discard part of the learning process?
This had some interesting stuff on it:
http://www.climbing.com/skill/dont-just-wing-it/
I've learnt plenty of hings from others I wouldn't have worked out myself without a huge amount of trial and error.
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Perhaps there is some vagueness about different possible roles.
The outer leg in heel-toe position is surely the critical element in moving up. The inner leg rarely contributes to moving up, but is essential, especially the steeper the crack gets, to holding the climber in, in combination with arm bars or chicken wings and palm pressure.
Sometimes the inner leg is cammed knee against either the heel or outside edge of inner foot, sometimes it heel-toes too, but on steeper things, if possible, it may be inserted high---as high as waist level---and twisted so as to get a heel-toe cam deep inside the crack. If the crack overhangs, then in order to move up, the holding position of the inner leg has to be relaxed, at which point only the arms keep the climber from falling out, the heel-toe cam supplying upward propulsion but little or no effective inward force component. In my not-extensive experience, this is when you fall out.
Maybe it is just me, but if you can't get your hips into the crack, then chicken wings are good for resting but have to be switched over to arm bars for moving up. On the other hand, if you can get your hips in (so really a tight squeeze chimney), then you move up on chicken wings by pivoting the hips up in the direction of the chicken-wing arm, palming low with the other arm to help force the pivoting. The motion is pivot hips up and lock lower torso, straighten upper torso and reset chicken wing, etc. It helps a lot if you have shoulders flexible enough (and strong enough) to have the chicken wing elbow pointed up and not just in.
Perhaps there is some vagueness about different possible roles.
The outer leg in heel-toe position is surely the critical element in moving up. The inner leg rarely contributes to moving up, but is essential, especially the steeper the crack gets, to holding the climber in, in combination with arm bars or chicken wings and palm pressure.
Sometimes the inner leg is cammed knee against either the heel or outside edge of inner foot, sometimes it heel-toes too, but on steeper things, if possible, it may be inserted high---as high as waist level---and twisted so as to get a heel-toe cam deep inside the crack. If the crack overhangs, then in order to move up, the holding position of the inner leg has to be relaxed, at which point only the arms keep the climber from falling out, the heel-toe cam supplying upward propulsion but little or no effective inward force component. In my not-extensive experience, this is when you fall out.
Maybe it is just me, but if you can't get your hips into the crack, then chicken wings are good for resting but have to be switched over to arm bars for moving up. On the other hand, if you can get your hips in (so really a tight squeeze chimney), then you move up on chicken wings by pivoting the hips up in the direction of the chicken-wing arm, palming low with the other arm to help force the pivoting. The motion is pivot hips up and lock lower torso, straighten upper torso and reset chicken wing, etc. It helps a lot if you have shoulders flexible enough (and strong enough) to have the chicken wing elbow pointed up and not just in.
In reply to rgold:
Agreed, more or less.
Depending on crack width one can sometimes alter between an inner leg knee/thigh lock or Leavittation style knee lock and a heel/toe foot lock to move up. Also, one can try to get the outer leg to provide some holding power while readjusting the inner leg.
> The outer leg in heel-toe position is surely the critical element in moving up. The inner leg rarely contributes to moving up, but is essential, especially the steeper the crack gets, to holding the climber in, in combination with arm bars or chicken wings and palm pressure.
Agreed, more or less.
> Sometimes the inner leg is cammed knee against either the heel or outside edge of inner foot, sometimes it heel-toes too, but on steeper things, if possible, it may be inserted high---as high as waist level---and twisted so as to get a heel-toe cam deep inside the crack. If the crack overhangs, then in order to move up, the holding position of the inner leg has to be relaxed, at which point only the arms keep the climber from falling out, the heel-toe cam supplying upward propulsion but little or no effective inward force component. In my not-extensive experience, this is when you fall out.
Depending on crack width one can sometimes alter between an inner leg knee/thigh lock or Leavittation style knee lock and a heel/toe foot lock to move up. Also, one can try to get the outer leg to provide some holding power while readjusting the inner leg.
In reply to JamieSparkes:
This is what John Long and Craig Luebben have to say in "Advanced Rock Climbing" under the heading Traditional Offwidth Technique:
"The idea is to get a rhythm going and and use the outer foot and leg to propel our body upward. We first set our arms - not too high or we'll have to use overtime. The inside arm performs an armbar or chicken wing, while the outside arm palms or pulls at the front edge of the crack (usually at shoulder level), or grabs face holds. Next we bring our outside foot into a foot-cam or heel-toe jam, or stem off a good hold outside the crack. We set the foot well and drive our body up with the outside leg. Understand this or you'll forever suffer on offwidth climbs: the driving leg propels us upwards, hence the necessity that our feet are locked well."
This is a lot easier to read than to put into practice! Not mentioned in the above description is that upward progress between moves may be only an inch or two at a time, as it's easy to get very frustrated when you can't make bigger moves. Not doubt it's better to get the technique mastered on something easy before trying Goliath.
This is what John Long and Craig Luebben have to say in "Advanced Rock Climbing" under the heading Traditional Offwidth Technique:
"The idea is to get a rhythm going and and use the outer foot and leg to propel our body upward. We first set our arms - not too high or we'll have to use overtime. The inside arm performs an armbar or chicken wing, while the outside arm palms or pulls at the front edge of the crack (usually at shoulder level), or grabs face holds. Next we bring our outside foot into a foot-cam or heel-toe jam, or stem off a good hold outside the crack. We set the foot well and drive our body up with the outside leg. Understand this or you'll forever suffer on offwidth climbs: the driving leg propels us upwards, hence the necessity that our feet are locked well."
This is a lot easier to read than to put into practice! Not mentioned in the above description is that upward progress between moves may be only an inch or two at a time, as it's easy to get very frustrated when you can't make bigger moves. Not doubt it's better to get the technique mastered on something easy before trying Goliath.
In reply to Rob Davies:
It doesn't work on Goliath as that is ovehanging chimney narrowing to offwidth.
It doesn't work on Goliath as that is ovehanging chimney narrowing to offwidth.
In reply to Offwidth:
I know nothing of Goliath, but one of the tricks that can sometimes help with bottlenecks---when you reach a narrowing but your feet are still somewhere too wide for heel-toes--is the double heel-toe: you cross your feet and cam the toe of the forward foot against the heel of the rearward foot.
I know nothing of Goliath, but one of the tricks that can sometimes help with bottlenecks---when you reach a narrowing but your feet are still somewhere too wide for heel-toes--is the double heel-toe: you cross your feet and cam the toe of the forward foot against the heel of the rearward foot.
In reply to rgold:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10682
https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=64585
Its E5 6a in the BMC definitive but if we brits had proper breadth of technique maybe it should be more like top end E3 6a as its as safe as you like with modern pro. Rockfax must have made up the 5c grade as there was never a majority vote for that here. Most leaders I've seen climb it, laybacked it. Thinking about it some people's feet probably do fit.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10682
https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=64585
Its E5 6a in the BMC definitive but if we brits had proper breadth of technique maybe it should be more like top end E3 6a as its as safe as you like with modern pro. Rockfax must have made up the 5c grade as there was never a majority vote for that here. Most leaders I've seen climb it, laybacked it. Thinking about it some people's feet probably do fit.
Post edited at 17:51
In reply to Michael Gordon:
cheers for the replies so far, certainly something to think about, so the next question is where can you find offwidth cracks at bouldering height to have a play about in.
To the last two posts: I thought Goliath was considerably easier than RE, as it's only about 6m of climbing with a couple of good hands off unstressed rests. From a different angle, We thought in terms of effort that it was about F6b+ but obviously quite condensed.
cheers for the replies so far, certainly something to think about, so the next question is where can you find offwidth cracks at bouldering height to have a play about in.
To the last two posts: I thought Goliath was considerably easier than RE, as it's only about 6m of climbing with a couple of good hands off unstressed rests. From a different angle, We thought in terms of effort that it was about F6b+ but obviously quite condensed.
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to rgold)
> https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10682
>
> https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=64585
>
Ok, I get it., and even better, I think, is http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=241978 , which makes it pretty clear what widths are involved (but does not reveal the overhang...)> https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10682
>
> https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=64585
>
In reply to rgold:
Its not what it looks like though as the width change isn't totally straightforward inside and the overhang of the rock is more significant than it seems front on. Its a cute problem that left me completely exhausted and spanked on an attempted second (my leader placed the high cam from inside then pulled out and laybacked) when most around that technical grade I could at that time succeeed on or make good progress on lead. Its also very tempting to take tension on lead and claim the tick as it helps keeps you in.
Its not what it looks like though as the width change isn't totally straightforward inside and the overhang of the rock is more significant than it seems front on. Its a cute problem that left me completely exhausted and spanked on an attempted second (my leader placed the high cam from inside then pulled out and laybacked) when most around that technical grade I could at that time succeeed on or make good progress on lead. Its also very tempting to take tension on lead and claim the tick as it helps keeps you in.
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