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No match for crag id:1980Freerider (5.12d)
Rumour has it this has just been flashed by Pete Whittaker...
First time ever a route has been flashed on El Capitan.
Truly remarkable, although I wonder if anyone didn't see this coming seeing as him and Tom were in the valley!
Rumour has it this has just been flashed by Pete Whittaker...
First time ever a route has been flashed on El Capitan.
Truly remarkable, although I wonder if anyone didn't see this coming seeing as him and Tom were in the valley!
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In reply to Smelly Fox:
I was waiting to read something like this. Great job Boyz first ever El cap flash? Wow
I was waiting to read something like this. Great job Boyz first ever El cap flash? Wow
In reply to puppythedog:
Bit of a grey area as far as I can tell (I'm happy to leave it to the hard big wall free climbers to decide where they actually draw the line), but they seem to have got about the closest yet.
Awesome effort, in any case.
> first ever El cap flash?
Bit of a grey area as far as I can tell (I'm happy to leave it to the hard big wall free climbers to decide where they actually draw the line), but they seem to have got about the closest yet.
Awesome effort, in any case.
Post edited at 09:59
In reply to Smelly Fox:
Impressive... although how hard can it be? I flashed the first pitch... on a tight rope... before crying when confronted with pitch 2!
Good work.
Impressive... although how hard can it be? I flashed the first pitch... on a tight rope... before crying when confronted with pitch 2!
Good work.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
Heres some info as to why the yanks are disputing it:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2512819/flash-freerider
8a+ overhanging crack
Heres some info as to why the yanks are disputing it:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2512819/flash-freerider
8a+ overhanging crack
Post edited at 12:44
In reply to mark catcher:
No offence, but I read what you typed there and imagined the sound of my cat throwing up
Did you not understand the sentence?
Or are you aware of any of the other routes on El Capitan that have been flashed?
No offence, but I read what you typed there and imagined the sound of my cat throwing up
Did you not understand the sentence?
Or are you aware of any of the other routes on El Capitan that have been flashed?
In reply to Smelly Fox:
First flash of a 'full length' route on el cap? Free blast has surely been flashed?
First flash of a 'full length' route on el cap? Free blast has surely been flashed?
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Not the mention The East Buttress.
As someone said on the other thread I think, too many variables involved in big walls for the usual 'Flash', 'Ground Up', 'headpoint' or perhaps more commonly for the likes of you and I Mike 'dogged the shit out of' to cover quite so comprehensively the various forms of ascent we're used to on shorter routes.
Not the mention The East Buttress.
As someone said on the other thread I think, too many variables involved in big walls for the usual 'Flash', 'Ground Up', 'headpoint' or perhaps more commonly for the likes of you and I Mike 'dogged the shit out of' to cover quite so comprehensively the various forms of ascent we're used to on shorter routes.
In reply to Tom Last:
East Buttress is a very minor route on the periphery of the buttress, but fair enough.
I don't agree with your statement about style though. You can quite happily categorise ascents in the same way. there are of course more "shades" in big wall climbing within the categories. But ground up is still ground up, flash still flash, dogged still dogged, etc etc
What Pete did on Freerider is clearly a flash. But obviously a purer style is still up for grabs....
East Buttress is a very minor route on the periphery of the buttress, but fair enough.
I don't agree with your statement about style though. You can quite happily categorise ascents in the same way. there are of course more "shades" in big wall climbing within the categories. But ground up is still ground up, flash still flash, dogged still dogged, etc etc
What Pete did on Freerider is clearly a flash. But obviously a purer style is still up for grabs....
In reply to Smelly Fox:
Second time, if one is counting this style as a flash http://www.climbing.com/news/free-rider-virtually-onsighted/
An outstanding effort nonetheless
> First time ever a route has been flashed on El Capitan.
Second time, if one is counting this style as a flash http://www.climbing.com/news/free-rider-virtually-onsighted/
An outstanding effort nonetheless
In reply to Smelly Fox:
Sorry yeah, kinda what I was trying to say, but you put it a lot better than me. Incredible climber.
Sorry yeah, kinda what I was trying to say, but you put it a lot better than me. Incredible climber.
In reply to Arms Cliff:
Hard to see very much difference in style between Lachat and Whittaker to me - both fantastic efforts and Ueli Steck's near onsight of Golden Gate is also worthy of mention.
> Second time, if one is counting this style as a flash http://www.climbing.com/news/free-rider-virtually-onsighted
Hard to see very much difference in style between Lachat and Whittaker to me - both fantastic efforts and Ueli Steck's near onsight of Golden Gate is also worthy of mention.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
I can understand what they say about the earlier ascents - surely once you ab off a route you've lost the flash?! Same goes for the onsight.
Equally though I can understand what the yanks have said about their ascent. Say for example a route had 4 possible variations for it's crux pitch, all taking entirely different ground. (Not that improbable - a barrier wall could be split by a number of vertical grooves.) It would hardly be fair to attempt each in turn, leaving the next for another day to conserve energy, until eventually you succeed on one of them, and still claim to have flashed the route! You've got to take the right one first time and not fall off it, otherwise if nothing else you're slightly taking the piss. One could also perhaps argue it wasn't the best tactics to try to flash one of the hardest pitches on the route in the searing heat.
Still it's definitely the best attempt so far. They've done the single push thing, which a big wall flash/onsight really needs to be considering that a downclimb to preserve the attempt obviously isn't an option.
What will be very interesting is to see when the first onsight happens (it's clearly possible), and if that will be a team onsight or an individual one.
I can understand what they say about the earlier ascents - surely once you ab off a route you've lost the flash?! Same goes for the onsight.
Equally though I can understand what the yanks have said about their ascent. Say for example a route had 4 possible variations for it's crux pitch, all taking entirely different ground. (Not that improbable - a barrier wall could be split by a number of vertical grooves.) It would hardly be fair to attempt each in turn, leaving the next for another day to conserve energy, until eventually you succeed on one of them, and still claim to have flashed the route! You've got to take the right one first time and not fall off it, otherwise if nothing else you're slightly taking the piss. One could also perhaps argue it wasn't the best tactics to try to flash one of the hardest pitches on the route in the searing heat.
Still it's definitely the best attempt so far. They've done the single push thing, which a big wall flash/onsight really needs to be considering that a downclimb to preserve the attempt obviously isn't an option.
What will be very interesting is to see when the first onsight happens (it's clearly possible), and if that will be a team onsight or an individual one.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Did you read the bit in their blog about them abbing off and then starting again from the Heart Ledges?
Did you read the bit in their blog about them abbing off and then starting again from the Heart Ledges?
In reply to Arms Cliff:
Good point! Must have missed that somehow.
In that case I agree it's hard really to see what separates this from earlier ascents.
Good point! Must have missed that somehow.
In that case I agree it's hard really to see what separates this from earlier ascents.
In reply to Arms Cliff:
And is there really any difference between abbing to the ground to sleep (common practice on big walls), abbing to a ledge to sleep (also common practice on big walls), or for that matter using a hanging belay (even more common practice)? None of it changes the Flash nature of the ascent, in that each and every pitch was climbed without falls. Could be argued there's still scope for an even more impressive ascent (continuous/onsight/one day/without hanging belays, etc.), but that's beside the point and has no bearing on the Flashness (nor indeed the impressiveness) of what Pete's just done. The only real question mark against that is having tried the other variation first, since it's undeniable that during the course of climbing from the bottom to the top of the cliff, he fell off.
And is there really any difference between abbing to the ground to sleep (common practice on big walls), abbing to a ledge to sleep (also common practice on big walls), or for that matter using a hanging belay (even more common practice)? None of it changes the Flash nature of the ascent, in that each and every pitch was climbed without falls. Could be argued there's still scope for an even more impressive ascent (continuous/onsight/one day/without hanging belays, etc.), but that's beside the point and has no bearing on the Flashness (nor indeed the impressiveness) of what Pete's just done. The only real question mark against that is having tried the other variation first, since it's undeniable that during the course of climbing from the bottom to the top of the cliff, he fell off.
In reply to john arran:
Is it better than the other two flashes listed above though?. Its depressing how what should be another 'wideboyz' celebration ends up being an argument due to shoddy research or ignorant over-enthusiasm.
Is it better than the other two flashes listed above though?. Its depressing how what should be another 'wideboyz' celebration ends up being an argument due to shoddy research or ignorant over-enthusiasm.
In reply to Offwidth:
They even say in the blog that Pete's style was similar to that of Cedric Lachat, they don't claim any different, it just seems that people couldn't read the whole blog post!
They even say in the blog that Pete's style was similar to that of Cedric Lachat, they don't claim any different, it just seems that people couldn't read the whole blog post!
In reply to Offwidth & Arms Cliff:
"We had had it as a goal to try and flash Freerider before coming out to the States as we knew it may not have been done before."
"Tom had managed to free his second big wall on El Cap and somehow I’d managed to climb the whole of Freerider without taking a fall. Firstly I actually couldn’t believe we’d both managed to free another wall in such a short period of time and secondly I couldn’t believe I’d got up this thing in a push first try."
"Big Wall Flashing
Pete’s effort on Freerider has to be one of my favourite climbing experiences because I got to see the culmination of 15 yrs of effort in learning a craft come to fruition. Everything he’s learnt on the gritstone edges, slate slabs, on offwidths with me and in cracks all over the world came to together in one 3000ft face. It’s not often you get to be there in the action observing a little bit of history..."
If they're not claiming Pete's ascent is the first flash of the route, they're certainly giving the impression that they are.
"We had had it as a goal to try and flash Freerider before coming out to the States as we knew it may not have been done before."
"Tom had managed to free his second big wall on El Cap and somehow I’d managed to climb the whole of Freerider without taking a fall. Firstly I actually couldn’t believe we’d both managed to free another wall in such a short period of time and secondly I couldn’t believe I’d got up this thing in a push first try."
"Big Wall Flashing
Pete’s effort on Freerider has to be one of my favourite climbing experiences because I got to see the culmination of 15 yrs of effort in learning a craft come to fruition. Everything he’s learnt on the gritstone edges, slate slabs, on offwidths with me and in cracks all over the world came to together in one 3000ft face. It’s not often you get to be there in the action observing a little bit of history..."
If they're not claiming Pete's ascent is the first flash of the route, they're certainly giving the impression that they are.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
way to go with the selective quoting there. How about this bit?
"For me the best flash efforts on a number of different routes (as far as I know) have to be:
Cedric Lachat’s Freerider attempt (very similar style to Pete)"
way to go with the selective quoting there. How about this bit?
"For me the best flash efforts on a number of different routes (as far as I know) have to be:
Cedric Lachat’s Freerider attempt (very similar style to Pete)"
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
They call it an "attempt".
How do you reconcile "may not have been done before" with "somehow I’d managed to climb the whole of Freerider without taking a fall", without concluding that they are claiming the first flash ascent? As I say, if they aren't claiming it, they are certainly giving the impression that they are.
> How about this bit?
> "For me the best flash efforts on a number of different routes (as far as I know) have to be:
> Cedric Lachat’s Freerider attempt (very similar style to Pete)"
They call it an "attempt".
How do you reconcile "may not have been done before" with "somehow I’d managed to climb the whole of Freerider without taking a fall", without concluding that they are claiming the first flash ascent? As I say, if they aren't claiming it, they are certainly giving the impression that they are.
In reply to Offwidth:
"Better" will always be subjective and it seems that in terms of impressive no-falls performance on any hard climbing Pete's and Cedric's ascents were all but indistinguishable. But in terms of purity of style Pete's would probably have the marginal edge over Lachat's ascent for most people simply because Pete led all the easy pitches too rather than following or simul-climbing some of them. It rather sounds like the Andersons were swapping leads too, as well as having covered some of the same ground previously on aid. I personally think that it's very artificial for both climbers in a pair to lead each pitch of a big-wall as it really isn't a very natural way to approach it, so in some ways the Anderson's climb was less contrived.
It's all splitting hairs of course and I wouldn't expect any of the climbers involved to lose any sleep over it, but you did ask.
> Is it better than the other two flashes listed above though?.
"Better" will always be subjective and it seems that in terms of impressive no-falls performance on any hard climbing Pete's and Cedric's ascents were all but indistinguishable. But in terms of purity of style Pete's would probably have the marginal edge over Lachat's ascent for most people simply because Pete led all the easy pitches too rather than following or simul-climbing some of them. It rather sounds like the Andersons were swapping leads too, as well as having covered some of the same ground previously on aid. I personally think that it's very artificial for both climbers in a pair to lead each pitch of a big-wall as it really isn't a very natural way to approach it, so in some ways the Anderson's climb was less contrived.
It's all splitting hairs of course and I wouldn't expect any of the climbers involved to lose any sleep over it, but you did ask.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
They must have got lucky, it's like they did any preparation....
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=600802
They must have got lucky, it's like they did any preparation....
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=600802
In reply to john arran:
The Anderson brothers ascent is not a flash surely, as they had covered the majority of the ground before.
This and other threads have just underlined the difficulty or ranking ascents into a "first, second, third" ranking. Probably why the piolet d'or is disputed every year, and why mountaineering was dropped from the Olympics all those years ago.
I was arguing with a non climbing friend the other day, after a few shandys, that I didn't belive climbing was a sport...
The Anderson brothers ascent is not a flash surely, as they had covered the majority of the ground before.
This and other threads have just underlined the difficulty or ranking ascents into a "first, second, third" ranking. Probably why the piolet d'or is disputed every year, and why mountaineering was dropped from the Olympics all those years ago.
I was arguing with a non climbing friend the other day, after a few shandys, that I didn't belive climbing was a sport...
pardon me if I've got this wrong…
didn't Tom fall off but not Pete?
didn't Tom fall off but not Pete?
In reply to Another Fox:
You are pardoned!
Pete fell off one of the pitches. Lowered off then flashed a different variation to the pitch.
You are pardoned!
Pete fell off one of the pitches. Lowered off then flashed a different variation to the pitch.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
For me personally, the cleanest and also most satisfying onsight, flash or redpoint ascents of a multipitch or bigwall route is when you would (theoretically) have survived a free solo ascent. That means that no falls were taken, it excludes hanging belays or generally resting in positions where this is not naturally possible (i.e. portaledge) and requires a single push ascent. Everything else is lower standard. Hence for me, this is not a flash - but a great effort anyway, congratulations!
For me personally, the cleanest and also most satisfying onsight, flash or redpoint ascents of a multipitch or bigwall route is when you would (theoretically) have survived a free solo ascent. That means that no falls were taken, it excludes hanging belays or generally resting in positions where this is not naturally possible (i.e. portaledge) and requires a single push ascent. Everything else is lower standard. Hence for me, this is not a flash - but a great effort anyway, congratulations!
In reply to Cellinski:
would mean some enormous pitches on certain routes!
> it excludes hanging belays
would mean some enormous pitches on certain routes!
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
A bit more concrete: for me personally, I would not consider this as a flash because with the fall, the ascent would just lack the sensation of having done the route/wall cleanly. I also think that this (i.e. one push and no falls from the bottom to the top) is the cleanest definition of a multipitch redpoint, flash or onsight. I do accept that there are other definitions (particularly of multipitch redpoint, to a much lesser extent of flash/onsight) and do not per se deny the flash that was claimed here, especially because exact details of what happened were given.
Regarding the "enourmous pitches", I don't really know. I don't climb on this very highest level, my previous experience with El Cap is limited to some baseclimbs but I do a lot of serious multipitching in Central Europe, i.e. from Chamonix over the Swiss Alps to the Dolomites. At this moment, I cannot remember any situation where there wasn't a hands-off rest for a belay for more than 60m. I'm sure there is a route with which you can prove this wrong, but I guess that's the absolute exception rather than the rule.
A bit more concrete: for me personally, I would not consider this as a flash because with the fall, the ascent would just lack the sensation of having done the route/wall cleanly. I also think that this (i.e. one push and no falls from the bottom to the top) is the cleanest definition of a multipitch redpoint, flash or onsight. I do accept that there are other definitions (particularly of multipitch redpoint, to a much lesser extent of flash/onsight) and do not per se deny the flash that was claimed here, especially because exact details of what happened were given.
Regarding the "enourmous pitches", I don't really know. I don't climb on this very highest level, my previous experience with El Cap is limited to some baseclimbs but I do a lot of serious multipitching in Central Europe, i.e. from Chamonix over the Swiss Alps to the Dolomites. At this moment, I cannot remember any situation where there wasn't a hands-off rest for a belay for more than 60m. I'm sure there is a route with which you can prove this wrong, but I guess that's the absolute exception rather than the rule.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
I was very impressed with Tom's and Pete's response to quibbles about the style of their first first ascent of Century Crack - to go back and also make the first ascent of CC placing gear on the lead.
Whatever the nuances of the style - lets celebrate what the wideboyz have done for cracks and bringing humour to top end climbing.
If I have an issue with Pete's climbing style it would be with climbing Master's Edge in a gorilla suit but not wearing the head mask... to an Old Joker like myself this point of style really does make a difference!
Enjoy!
I was very impressed with Tom's and Pete's response to quibbles about the style of their first first ascent of Century Crack - to go back and also make the first ascent of CC placing gear on the lead.
Whatever the nuances of the style - lets celebrate what the wideboyz have done for cracks and bringing humour to top end climbing.
If I have an issue with Pete's climbing style it would be with climbing Master's Edge in a gorilla suit but not wearing the head mask... to an Old Joker like myself this point of style really does make a difference!
Enjoy!
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