UKC

Over at ukcaving.com a debate has been raging for months over whether the CROW (Countryside and Rights of Way) Act, which provides free access to designated, open land, including many areas with crags, ought to be extended to cover caving. At the moment, the received wisdom of Natural England and Defra is that it doesn't. However, a legal opinion by my sister, the eminent public law expert Dinah Rose QC, has challenged this, saying that caving ought to be within the scope of the Act, just as climbing is. There is no public policy reason why it shouldn't be, she says, and parliament cannot have intended caving to be excepted when it passed the Act. Her opinion states the law should be re-interpreted.

Soon there is to be a referendum among members of the British Caving Association as to what its stance ought to be. On the forum, a body of opinion (which I do not at all share) suggests that a campaign to extend CROW to caving will have negative consequences, including bad relations with landowners, problems in conserving vulnerable caves with delicate formations, and the likely restriction of exploratory digging.

Are there any readers here who have noticed any bad effects when CROW first covered climbing around 2000? Does anyone see a downside in having caving covered? Was there a similar debate in climbing circles before the Act was passed in 2000? Please post here if you can contribute - and for that matter at ukcaving.com if you feel so moved.

In reply to davidoldfart:
Interesting! I didn't realise that caving was effectively excluded, if not explicitly within the Act, then through the opinion cited in your post. it seems anomalous to me and possibly only explained by the fairly common position of landowners of charging for cave access, which I'm not sure happens anywhere with crag access (?). that this difference happens at all is probably because it is easier to control (fence or gate) access to caves and therefore develop an income stream from the holes in your land.

I can't specify any bad effects, unless increased traffic at sensitive areas is thought 'bad' by default. One could argue that CROW helps environmentally through load spreading and presumably the same would apply to caves.

In reply to davidoldfart:

Does this come down to weather caving is "open air" recreation?

In reply to Derek Furze:

There are a couple of crags that you have to pay for access to down here near London. They are not on CRoW land.

In reply to Derek Furze:

A lot of caves have access controlled by local caving organizations as well, in a "responsible caving groups can ask us for the key" sort of way. I think this is mainly to reduce the likelihood of any yahoo with a head torch wandering in and either a) coming to grief or b) making a mess and/or damaging rock formations.

In reply to davidoldfart:

I think the only folk who believe CRoW does not apply to caving are a handful of cavers......every one else knows that caving is covered, just not specifically mentioned.

It's pretty obvious really.

In reply to top cat:

Don't be so sure! The custodians of the legislation disagree...wrongly I think

In reply to David Rose:

Where the entrance is on access land then CRoW should let you walk to the entrance. The issue is then whether you can enter the cave, but this would be trespass not criminal. If CRoW applies you could insist on access where a landowner currently doesn't allow it, but on the other hand, there seem to be cases where caving groups themselves control access for (presumably) good reasons, and if CRoW does apply then this could be unlawful. Be careful what you wish for. How much of a problem is it in practice?

Is there any caving in Scotland? If so does the experience there shed any light on the issue? Scotland has much wider rights of access for recreational purposes and although caving is not specifically mentioned it will surely fall within that.

In reply to top cat:
http://kindertrespass.com/assets/Les%20Hurley/Mass.Trespass.plaque.New.Mills.jpg



I tend to be of the opinion that access should be assumed until those trying to prevent it PROVE otherwise. Probably because I have a kayaking background, and because people fought for us to have access to the countryside. I fail to see why underground is any different.

Edit to add not specifically in reply to topcat.

In reply to Howard J:

FWIW you are not entirely correct. Caving is specifically included in para 2.7 of the Access Code which is the relevant secondary legislation.