This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Thanks to screwing up my lowering technique using a guide plate I gave my second a heart-stopping free fall yesterday until I regained control. Thankfully neither of us were physically hurt but the shock remains.
I've been climbing for years - the alps, New Zealand, USA, Nepal, Norway - I never thought I could screw up that badly, but I did and I wouldn't wish it on anyone: hence this post.
Today we are going to practice all our ropework and self rescue so that this doesn't happen again; and I'm going to repeat that practice regularly.
A short time spent revising old skills and learning new ones can save a lifetime of regret.
Please feel free to use my wake-up call rather than wait for your own.
I've been climbing for years - the alps, New Zealand, USA, Nepal, Norway - I never thought I could screw up that badly, but I did and I wouldn't wish it on anyone: hence this post.
Today we are going to practice all our ropework and self rescue so that this doesn't happen again; and I'm going to repeat that practice regularly.
A short time spent revising old skills and learning new ones can save a lifetime of regret.
Please feel free to use my wake-up call rather than wait for your own.
In reply to Pete_Frost:
Glad it ended without a worse outcome.
Practicing rescues etc is a really good idea, there seems to be a lot of apathy towards it.
I offer self rescue courses but they don't get much interest which always surprises me.
Happy & safe practicing!
Glad it ended without a worse outcome.
Practicing rescues etc is a really good idea, there seems to be a lot of apathy towards it.
I offer self rescue courses but they don't get much interest which always surprises me.
Happy & safe practicing!
Post edited at 11:45
1
In reply to Pete_Frost:
Good to hear you're both okay.
What happened, released the plate too quickly?
I'd echo Jez's words, it's surprising that so many climbers don't think more about ropework / self - rescue and practice. Let's hope people read your post and take action for themselves.
Good to hear you're both okay.
What happened, released the plate too quickly?
I'd echo Jez's words, it's surprising that so many climbers don't think more about ropework / self - rescue and practice. Let's hope people read your post and take action for themselves.
1
In reply to Pete_Frost:
echo the others, -when you practise rescue - have a separate back up line
it's possible for it to go very pete tong if you mess up !
echo the others, -when you practise rescue - have a separate back up line
it's possible for it to go very pete tong if you mess up !
1
In reply to Pete_Frost: I did something somewhat similar four months ago. I was having surprising trouble at the first bolt on a slate clip-up, called down "take me" and hit the deck, on my back, about 4 metres or so. I'd somehow forgotten to clip the bolt - never done that before - hope not to again! Although I drove home (100 miles) and thought just that I'd hurt myself, I had x-rays later which showed 3 fractured vertebrae. Getting better now, and climbing OK, but concentrating more, I hope, and considering purchasing a clip-stick!
1
In reply to Pete_Frost: You haven't mentioned the details but my first reaction would be to question your decision making not your ropework. If you've got to the stage of having to lower using a guide plate then it is likely something else has gone wrong already.
Basically, in hindsight:
A.Was your overall plan for the day sound?
B. Was the specific route choice sensible and appropriate?
C. Was your decision to use a guide plate, rather than an alternative, correct?
Perfecting a mechanical skill is easy, developing and improving your decision making is harder but is much more valuable.
Basically, in hindsight:
A.Was your overall plan for the day sound?
B. Was the specific route choice sensible and appropriate?
C. Was your decision to use a guide plate, rather than an alternative, correct?
Perfecting a mechanical skill is easy, developing and improving your decision making is harder but is much more valuable.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: Surely if the ropework skills were in place, Pete wouldn't have had an issue in the first place? I think that questioning his decision making is a bit of a strange leap for you to make.
In reply to Mike Nolan:
Actually, I think those are good questions to ask. My understanding is that, generally, guide plates are not setup to easily lower (I know this is the case for both an ATC Guide and a Reverso in guide mode), and that losing control of the lower is one of the common issues with this. So, one normally only uses one in a situation where there is no expectation of needing to lower. If that comes up, it is worth asking why did you end up in that situation?
Actually, I think those are good questions to ask. My understanding is that, generally, guide plates are not setup to easily lower (I know this is the case for both an ATC Guide and a Reverso in guide mode), and that losing control of the lower is one of the common issues with this. So, one normally only uses one in a situation where there is no expectation of needing to lower. If that comes up, it is worth asking why did you end up in that situation?
In reply to Mike Nolan:
Very surprised you think it is strange.
My first thoughts when something has not gone well when climbing is to go back to the basics and as myself whether I picked the right crag that day. I then follow my thought process through to whatever incident occurred and identify any points where the situation could have been avoided.
Focusing on problem solving is fine but learning to avoid problems in future is better.
This is also the sort of approach anyone formally trained in accident investigation would take. They look at the big picture, the humam facotrs and prior decisions rather than just focusing on proximate causes.
Anyway I forgot to thank the OP for posting in the first place because 'near miss' reporting is extremely valuable in helping others either solve or avoid problems in the future. Also, we could do with a lot more of it within the UK climbing community, but that is another debate entirely.
Very surprised you think it is strange.
My first thoughts when something has not gone well when climbing is to go back to the basics and as myself whether I picked the right crag that day. I then follow my thought process through to whatever incident occurred and identify any points where the situation could have been avoided.
Focusing on problem solving is fine but learning to avoid problems in future is better.
This is also the sort of approach anyone formally trained in accident investigation would take. They look at the big picture, the humam facotrs and prior decisions rather than just focusing on proximate causes.
Anyway I forgot to thank the OP for posting in the first place because 'near miss' reporting is extremely valuable in helping others either solve or avoid problems in the future. Also, we could do with a lot more of it within the UK climbing community, but that is another debate entirely.
Post edited at 14:56
1
In reply to dagibbs:
It's fairly straightforward to lower using a 'guide plate' if you know how to do it properly. I'd say you shouldn't lose control if you're doing it correctly. I understand that maybe it would be worth asking those questions in other situations, but this is a case of pure user error and nothing to do with poor judgement.
It's fairly straightforward to lower using a 'guide plate' if you know how to do it properly. I'd say you shouldn't lose control if you're doing it correctly. I understand that maybe it would be worth asking those questions in other situations, but this is a case of pure user error and nothing to do with poor judgement.
In reply to Mike Nolan:
Might be helpful for people if you elaborated on said method?
I regularly belay seconds up using guide 'mode' (for a myriad of probably non-best practice reasons, but which I feel work for me). I might not do this if I was expecting to have to lower someone, however I often do this knowing it's a possibility, but am happy that, should this arise, the ease of tying off the plate to quickly adapt the system into what I would deem a more secure lower than you'd get out of a 'standard' second belay make this a positive for me. The short amount of time this takes could be helpful in adding some calm to the situation - generally not a bad thing.
Might be helpful for people if you elaborated on said method?
I regularly belay seconds up using guide 'mode' (for a myriad of probably non-best practice reasons, but which I feel work for me). I might not do this if I was expecting to have to lower someone, however I often do this knowing it's a possibility, but am happy that, should this arise, the ease of tying off the plate to quickly adapt the system into what I would deem a more secure lower than you'd get out of a 'standard' second belay make this a positive for me. The short amount of time this takes could be helpful in adding some calm to the situation - generally not a bad thing.
1
I can echo Jez's sentiments, I too offer rescue courses and it's really rare anyone is interested in them, yet almost every time I go sea cliff or multi pitch climbing I see dodgy practise that has the potential to escalate into something catastrophic, usually from people with some experience or SPA's- a little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing!
Pete you obviously knew how to look after your partner but I wonder how many people could release a guide plate let alone lower on it safely? (Which by the way guys is really easy and safe if you know how!)
Post edited at 18:40
1
In reply to Pete_Frost:
My ATC Guide is a bit sticky when lowering - has anyone tried the new DMM Pivot?
My ATC Guide is a bit sticky when lowering - has anyone tried the new DMM Pivot?
In reply to Robin Woodward:
To lower a second from an ATC or similar belay device in autoblock mode you will have to lift the device, which will make the ropes run parallel and thus slide out under the weight of your second.
To provide friction you can try and kink the dead end back (usually up!) to get a rope path through the device that resembles the braking position in regular mode. Depending on the setup of the belay and especially your position relative to the device this may be difficult.
In these cases I prefer to use a narrow diameter carabiner that I can insert half open into the nose of the ATC, tied to with a length of cord that I can thread through the anchor (assuming it is above the ATC). This way, I can simply release the device by pulling on the cord. This offers some degree of control, albeit not very precise, but simply letting go will return the ATC to autoblock mode.
To control slipping and lowering speed I instead brake the dead end of the rope using a munter hitch / HMS through a screwgate biner on my harness.
Hope that makes sense,
CB
To lower a second from an ATC or similar belay device in autoblock mode you will have to lift the device, which will make the ropes run parallel and thus slide out under the weight of your second.
To provide friction you can try and kink the dead end back (usually up!) to get a rope path through the device that resembles the braking position in regular mode. Depending on the setup of the belay and especially your position relative to the device this may be difficult.
In these cases I prefer to use a narrow diameter carabiner that I can insert half open into the nose of the ATC, tied to with a length of cord that I can thread through the anchor (assuming it is above the ATC). This way, I can simply release the device by pulling on the cord. This offers some degree of control, albeit not very precise, but simply letting go will return the ATC to autoblock mode.
To control slipping and lowering speed I instead brake the dead end of the rope using a munter hitch / HMS through a screwgate biner on my harness.
Hope that makes sense,
CB
1
In reply to Pete_Frost:
Thanks for the post.
It used to be that years of experience was a good buttress against accidents, but that is no longer true because of the speed of evolution of gear. Experience can be worthless or worse than worthless when it comes to handling new gear, and experienced users can be overly complacent about the value of their no longer relevant knowledge. I've committed this sin and fortunately not hurt anyone else or myself as a consequence.
This seems especially true of belay devices. They aren't your grandma's Sticht plate, and have a learning curve that turns us all into noobs (and maybe also boobs) when we grab 'em at the store and head straight out to the crag.
I think lowering with guides plates, at least the ones I've seen, is dangerous. There is a very rapid transition between being locked to offering almost no resistance. If you don't know about this you'll drop someone for sure, but even if you do know about it there's a decent chance you'll cross the control threshold. Saying this doesn't happen if you do it properly is just proposing a definition of "properly," not confronting underlying flaw of the gear.
Knowing the devices are flawed, lowering ought to be done with a backup. This could be a prussik on the brake strand or a munter hitch on the harness or a hip belay, but something behind the plate to provide friction when the plate suddenly releases.
Thanks for the post.
It used to be that years of experience was a good buttress against accidents, but that is no longer true because of the speed of evolution of gear. Experience can be worthless or worse than worthless when it comes to handling new gear, and experienced users can be overly complacent about the value of their no longer relevant knowledge. I've committed this sin and fortunately not hurt anyone else or myself as a consequence.
This seems especially true of belay devices. They aren't your grandma's Sticht plate, and have a learning curve that turns us all into noobs (and maybe also boobs) when we grab 'em at the store and head straight out to the crag.
I think lowering with guides plates, at least the ones I've seen, is dangerous. There is a very rapid transition between being locked to offering almost no resistance. If you don't know about this you'll drop someone for sure, but even if you do know about it there's a decent chance you'll cross the control threshold. Saying this doesn't happen if you do it properly is just proposing a definition of "properly," not confronting underlying flaw of the gear.
Knowing the devices are flawed, lowering ought to be done with a backup. This could be a prussik on the brake strand or a munter hitch on the harness or a hip belay, but something behind the plate to provide friction when the plate suddenly releases.
1
In reply to Stu McInnes:
I'd hope anyone using one would have the sense to understand how it works (and let's face it, it's not rocket science) before they venture out to high places with it and a partner probably unwilling to be a human guinea pig.
> I wonder how many people could release a guide plate let alone lower on it safely? (Which by the way guys is really easy and safe if you know how!)
I'd hope anyone using one would have the sense to understand how it works (and let's face it, it's not rocket science) before they venture out to high places with it and a partner probably unwilling to be a human guinea pig.
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
The blurb suggests it will make lowering much easier and more controlled, but us punters won't know till next year...so as PME asks anyone inside the magic circle had the chance to try one yet?
The blurb suggests it will make lowering much easier and more controlled, but us punters won't know till next year...so as PME asks anyone inside the magic circle had the chance to try one yet?
In reply to Pete_Frost:
I'm really baffled by the use of guide plates they seem to be complicating a very simple device and making it more difficult to belay . Being able to lower off easily should be integral. What is wrong with a standard ATC type device?
I'm really baffled by the use of guide plates they seem to be complicating a very simple device and making it more difficult to belay . Being able to lower off easily should be integral. What is wrong with a standard ATC type device?
Post edited at 08:35
In reply to tom r:
The benefit of using a guide plate *in guide mode* is being able to bring two seconds up and the autoblock functionality, I guess. When using one like a standard ATC they work exactly the same as a standard ATC - I imagine lots of people have them and don't even know what the extra loop is for.
Personally I'd probably just use an Italian hitch if bringing up one second with an awkwardly placed direct belay where a parallel lock-off is desirable (am unlikely to have two), but I can see the benefit.
Neil
The benefit of using a guide plate *in guide mode* is being able to bring two seconds up and the autoblock functionality, I guess. When using one like a standard ATC they work exactly the same as a standard ATC - I imagine lots of people have them and don't even know what the extra loop is for.
Personally I'd probably just use an Italian hitch if bringing up one second with an awkwardly placed direct belay where a parallel lock-off is desirable (am unlikely to have two), but I can see the benefit.
Neil
In reply to Robin Woodward:
I've never had to lower someone in anger but have done it in practice at the climbing wall and using a nut key as a lever on a reverso really works well, and in winter the same effect can be had from an ice axe. Can still use a redirect and saves you having to set up a system of putting your body weight onto the device in order to release it.
I've never had to lower someone in anger but have done it in practice at the climbing wall and using a nut key as a lever on a reverso really works well, and in winter the same effect can be had from an ice axe. Can still use a redirect and saves you having to set up a system of putting your body weight onto the device in order to release it.
Post edited at 13:25
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Yeah, had a go with one the other week. Pretty nifty design and the release works well, but I wouldn't buy one if you already own a reverso or atc guide.
Yeah, had a go with one the other week. Pretty nifty design and the release works well, but I wouldn't buy one if you already own a reverso or atc guide.
In reply to cb294:
FWIW I'm fairly sure the pictorial instructions that came with my ATC Guide, once you've deciphered them, show a munter hitch on the dead rope in their "how to lower" bit.
FWIW I'm fairly sure the pictorial instructions that came with my ATC Guide, once you've deciphered them, show a munter hitch on the dead rope in their "how to lower" bit.
In reply to Pete_Frost:
http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aakn_prd/on/demandware.static/Sites-bdag-Si...
I'm trawling my memory back to when these plates come out but the addition of the munter hitch might be a 'new' addition. I'm pretty sure when they were first introduced the instructions illustrated just lowering within the device. The trouble was doing it as originally shown was a bit binary i.e. it was very easy to screw it up and at best give the climber on the other end a scare as they went briefly into free-fall... I mind teaching MIA/MIC candidates to either put the lowering rope back to a krab to keep the braking rope at 180 degrees and/or use a munter hitch.
Same holds for the Petzl Reversos file:///C:/Users/George%20Mc/Downloads/technical-notice-REVERSO-4.pdf my advice would be don't lower when using direct belay mode as shown but run the lowering rope back to another krab, and even better use a munter hitch on that other kran. And practice. Before you use it in anger.
http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aakn_prd/on/demandware.static/Sites-bdag-Si...
I'm trawling my memory back to when these plates come out but the addition of the munter hitch might be a 'new' addition. I'm pretty sure when they were first introduced the instructions illustrated just lowering within the device. The trouble was doing it as originally shown was a bit binary i.e. it was very easy to screw it up and at best give the climber on the other end a scare as they went briefly into free-fall... I mind teaching MIA/MIC candidates to either put the lowering rope back to a krab to keep the braking rope at 180 degrees and/or use a munter hitch.
Same holds for the Petzl Reversos file:///C:/Users/George%20Mc/Downloads/technical-notice-REVERSO-4.pdf my advice would be don't lower when using direct belay mode as shown but run the lowering rope back to another krab, and even better use a munter hitch on that other kran. And practice. Before you use it in anger.
2
In reply to Pete_Frost:
Guide plates are great used correctly, but when lowering I would always redirect the "dead" rope through another krab above / behind to add more control. I don't use an Italian hitch but it's certainley something to consider.
Lowering without either seems a bit spicy..
Guide plates are great used correctly, but when lowering I would always redirect the "dead" rope through another krab above / behind to add more control. I don't use an Italian hitch but it's certainley something to consider.
Lowering without either seems a bit spicy..
1
In reply to Pete_Frost:
Some of the replies on here seem to suggest a guide plate is fine to lower with if you have some sort of nifty mystery rope skills. As I understand it all they mean is you want to use a backup to do it safely (munter etc). So I can see why someone might say they are dangerous to lower with i.e. its not safe by itself.
I'm nitpicking a bit I know.
I'm pretty sure the bit of paper that came with my reverso showed no backup on the vague 'lowering' diagram.
Some of the replies on here seem to suggest a guide plate is fine to lower with if you have some sort of nifty mystery rope skills. As I understand it all they mean is you want to use a backup to do it safely (munter etc). So I can see why someone might say they are dangerous to lower with i.e. its not safe by itself.
I'm nitpicking a bit I know.
I'm pretty sure the bit of paper that came with my reverso showed no backup on the vague 'lowering' diagram.
Post edited at 18:46
In reply to Pete_Frost:
I've got to be honest, if I plan to, or think I might end up lowering I don't use this method. I've been caught out a couple of times with a partner unable to get back to holds, but been able to wriggle a bit of rope through by virtue of a rectangular section back bar, as opposed to round.
I've got to be honest, if I plan to, or think I might end up lowering I don't use this method. I've been caught out a couple of times with a partner unable to get back to holds, but been able to wriggle a bit of rope through by virtue of a rectangular section back bar, as opposed to round.
In reply to Pete_Frost:
"hence this post"
??
glad your okay but some details would be good. Does lowering with a guide plate mean you were top roping or belaying your second (and third)? Was it in guide mode or not? What brand? etc.
If I had to guess, you had a weighted ATC/Reverso in guide mode and lifted it up to lower your second back down then it slipped away uncontrollably. Yes/no?
"hence this post"
??
glad your okay but some details would be good. Does lowering with a guide plate mean you were top roping or belaying your second (and third)? Was it in guide mode or not? What brand? etc.
If I had to guess, you had a weighted ATC/Reverso in guide mode and lifted it up to lower your second back down then it slipped away uncontrollably. Yes/no?
In reply to Morgan Woods:
Hi Morgan,
many thanks for your interest. I posted this not to highlight any problems with specific guide-plates, or specific situations, but to say that I'd had a nasty experience which could have been prevented if I'd really known what I thought I knew. By posting that, I hoped other climbers would review their own practice so they didn't have to go through what I and my partner went through.
We all use different kit, and get ourselves into different situations, but we all need to know how to use our kit safely, and to practice in safe places to be sure we can actually act safely when things go wrong.
Other contributors to this topic have posted some really helpful advice, there are great instructions in Libby Peters' book "Rock Climbing: Essential Skills and Techniques" 2nd edition (http://libbypeterclimbing.co.uk/sales.html ) and a video showing a slightly different method at http://climbinglife.com/beta/tech-tips/798-releasing-an-atc-guide-belay-vid...
My incident was as you described, but someone else might find themselves with an incapacitated climber on a traverse, or just having to abseil past a knot. We mostly think we know how to do it, but I'd rather have discovered that my skills were lacking before I scared the crap out of my second.
Hi Morgan,
many thanks for your interest. I posted this not to highlight any problems with specific guide-plates, or specific situations, but to say that I'd had a nasty experience which could have been prevented if I'd really known what I thought I knew. By posting that, I hoped other climbers would review their own practice so they didn't have to go through what I and my partner went through.
We all use different kit, and get ourselves into different situations, but we all need to know how to use our kit safely, and to practice in safe places to be sure we can actually act safely when things go wrong.
Other contributors to this topic have posted some really helpful advice, there are great instructions in Libby Peters' book "Rock Climbing: Essential Skills and Techniques" 2nd edition (http://libbypeterclimbing.co.uk/sales.html ) and a video showing a slightly different method at http://climbinglife.com/beta/tech-tips/798-releasing-an-atc-guide-belay-vid...
My incident was as you described, but someone else might find themselves with an incapacitated climber on a traverse, or just having to abseil past a knot. We mostly think we know how to do it, but I'd rather have discovered that my skills were lacking before I scared the crap out of my second.
1
I find it very easy to lower using a Reverso.
However I had done in many, many times. I keep a firm grip on the rope and use my thumb on the Reverso's release knob if the rope isn't fully weighted, or a carabiner if it is fully weighted.
I'd say that if you plan to use guide mode you should practice this several times with different weights of climber, and until you have done is more than fifty time use a Munter backup.
Thanks to the OP for posting. We all get things wrong sometimes.
However I had done in many, many times. I keep a firm grip on the rope and use my thumb on the Reverso's release knob if the rope isn't fully weighted, or a carabiner if it is fully weighted.
I'd say that if you plan to use guide mode you should practice this several times with different weights of climber, and until you have done is more than fifty time use a Munter backup.
Thanks to the OP for posting. We all get things wrong sometimes.
1
In reply to Pete_Frost:
Yes thanks for this, interested that you had the gall to wait for someone to note the correct error.
Yes thanks for this, interested that you had the gall to wait for someone to note the correct error.
In reply to David Coley:
Following the suggestion (in your book actually) to use a Munter backup, I have tried lowering on my Reverso 4 precisely once (for practice purposes) on a single rope, and I am very glad I had the Munter... I found it very difficult to release (until it was 'too' released) and did some interesting things to the carabiner hole with the crab I was using.
Following the suggestion (in your book actually) to use a Munter backup, I have tried lowering on my Reverso 4 precisely once (for practice purposes) on a single rope, and I am very glad I had the Munter... I found it very difficult to release (until it was 'too' released) and did some interesting things to the carabiner hole with the crab I was using.
1
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Fri Night Vid Finding Focus - Life Behind The Lens of a Climbing Photographer
This week's Friday Night Video is a portrait of a prolific climbing photographer from Wedge Climbing. Sam Pratt is well known in both the outdoor and competition scene but if you haven't heard of him, you've likely seen...
26 Apr
Loading Notifications...