UKC

Anyone know what conditions are like on brown coves at the moment?

In reply to crabtreer:
http://www.lakedistrictweatherline.co.uk/index

In reply to Mountain Llama:

Yeah seen the forecast thanks but does anyone have anymore detailed info on the route conditions on brown cove or red tarn?

In reply to crabtreer:

I went yesterday. Brown Cove Crag looked moderately wintery but the ground was completely unfrozen, indeed on the very top of Helvellyn the turf was still unfrozen despite all being rather white. We scrambled up roughly what is the winter climb Stepped Ridge. We actually followed the crampon prints of someone else up it but we didn't put our crampons on or need a rope. I did get one of my tools out mainly just to hook some rock holds with and stop my gloves getting so wet. It was getting warmer as we walked back down so I suspect there is now less snow than yesterday and more dripping rock.

So, remember - rare alpine flora; unfrozen; environmental vandalism etc etc!

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for that.....more cold required yet then!!!

In reply to crabtreer:

Yep, looks cold again at the weekend http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/gcty5q7dp but I was surprised that after quite a few days of cold weather before yesterday, just how unfrozen most of the turf was - even at the highest levels. I'm sure I remember routes in Scotland being in condition after just a day or two of frost and sprinkling of snow. I suppose with the Lakes, if the turf temperature was higher to start with, it takes longer for it to cool and freeze. A few people had logged doing winter routes in Brown Cove the day before we went, but I'm doubtful it was what I would call real winter conditions.

In reply to crabtreer:

We also went up yesterday (think we met you on the way down Toby) and Brown Cove barely looked wintery... so we headed to Helvellyn and climbed Viking Buttress. More out of luck than sound environmentalism (and all that) the route was in: mainly rock lower down (where we used tools and hands) some good, actually frozen turf in the middle but less so up top (sunlight?), so we avoided the tougher 5 section (unfrozen turf and not enough rock for turf-free placements) and headed up the easier gully to the left.

That said, the Lakes are now minging and mild, so not good for today and tomorrow+ I'd imagine. Have some drinks, chill out, have a good new year and maybe head to Scotland

In reply to crabtreer:

Lakes-we had an exceptionally wet and warm episode on 22nd Dec

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=875776055777498&set=vb.21120267556...

2 days of rain while temp remained above 10 c - there needs to be a bit of cooling down before turf has a real chance of freezing

incidentally this rainfall didn't affect Wales or Scotland to same degree

In reply to John Kelly:
Very good point. The ground temperatures were getting reasonably low (near 0C) before the rainfall event, but that rainfall will have raised them back up to more like 5 C or 6 C which will have been largely insulated by the snow. I tend to think if you've got more than a cm of dry snow it'll be enough to stop the turf freezing. Also combined with some mosses and plants keeping the ground warmer than other vegetation...

NMM

In reply to Northern Mountain Monkey:

Maybe we need something like the system they have in Wales

In reply to John Kelly:

How do you mean? I wonder if the weatherline team could stick thermometers in clumps of turf occasionally...

Looks like more warm rain on the way on Thursday...

NMM

In reply to Northern Mountain Monkey:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/idwal

In reply to crabtreer:
Went up to bring the new year in on the summit last night can confirm every single bit of winter has completey gone bar the cornice. back to square one I am afraid.

In reply to Wesley Orvis:

Well done. Were there many people about ?
Last time I did it quite a lot of hip flasks appeared and quite a bit of malt disappeared! Surprised me how many people then decided to go back down the edges, "seemed like a good idea at the time......."

In reply to John Kelly:

Now that is the business and has been needed for a while. I'm currently researching mountain permafrost, so this data is pretty interesting from an academic point of view too. Cheers for the link. This desperately needs to be done for Helvellyn!!! Where do we start the campaign? I assume the regional BMC meeting must already be considering this for Helvellyn?

The impact of warm rainfall events on ground temperatures is quite impressive (and depressing!), it also shows the insulating effects of snow cover really well.

NMM