UKC

Two thoughts:
The first climb I ever did (Seconding) was a VS and that became my standard for many years with a slight move up to HVS/E1. 40 years on and VS is a standard I can now follow outdoors and aspire to lead on a good day.
My climbing mate of years ago reckoned that most people stayed at about the same standard of their first climb. He took his new girlfriend up an E2 for her first climb and she became a solid E1/2 leader.

What are your experiences of your first climb as a pointer to the standard at which you are now climbing.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

In 1968 a school teacher top roped me and a few mates up a Diff at Scugdale.

Everything after that was self taught.

Have come on a bit in the last 47 year ( no replies please ) I don't think your formula stacks up for me.

One idea I read somewhere was that in older age you could maintain your( max ) grade at your prime by improvements in protection technology. Perhaps more appropriate to climbers peaking in say 1965 when better gear started to kick in.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
My experience is similar to the previous reply, inasmuch as my first route was a first ascent of a rambling mountain VD roped between two instructors on a course 40+ years ago. My average grade has normally been higher, and I'd say that was the same for most of my climbing friends.
Jim.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Tosh. Poppycock.

My first climb must have been about a v diff. The first lead that I genuinely struggled on must have been a severe. I have now led E4s and intent to lead extremes for a long time

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
I'm sure everybody will have a different story. I never did any seconding so made a very pedestrian progress through the grades from moderate to mild extreme over about 4 years. Not sure what my grade is now; somewhere between moderate and mild extreme.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

When I started I could barely top rope an F4, a V0- boulder or a Diff. 2 years on I lead F6a/b sport, V3/4, and HVS/E1. I hope to be as much further on again in another 2 years!

If you work hard at progressing you will progress. If you take what you have as your lot you will not. Simples!

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

It's a nice idea but the progression below would be more usual, give or take a few grades

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Mod to E3/Fr7a ´ish doesn´t seem to back up your argument. Nor did one of my climbing partners actually start at 8c, he worked up to it

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

So your mate thinks that most people begin climbing, then never improve?

Well i've managed to improve by 14 french grades in the last 10 years and pretty much everyone I know is always looking towards that next grade, so i'm going to have to disagree.

Maybe it's a trad thing...

In reply to Dandan:



I've improved! My first climb was a Mod, I now climb Diff

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Agreed with the utter ludicrousness of that statement. My first trad route was a severe/VS - I'm now going for E7. Similarly, first sport route was 6a - now going for 8a.

Progression is a massive part of climbing.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

All the posters who have progressed (including myself) are posting personal tales of progression. However the stats on the site indicate Mild Severe to be the most climbed grade on UKC, which is not far from beginner VD or D, so there may be some merit in your theory.
I started climbing with a group from Nottingham who were already climbing in the XS and new E2-E5 grades. Although they humoured me on a few weekends with some Diffs and VS, I was soon by necessity hauling myself up seconding their routes. I've kind of stuck in that grade (albeit bouldering mostly now) so you might be right.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I can't believe that most climbers stay at the grade of their first climb (mine was probably a V Diff, a few years later I was leading E1). But I think most are conditioned by the group they climb with - the club I started climbing with had no one leading more than VS and I quickly reached that standard but then plateaued thinking that HVS & beyond was for the superstars. Then I went to university & climbed with a group where the average standard was around E1 (or mild extreme in those days) & was leading that grade myself in a couple of months.

That was in the mid/late 70s, is the same true today ?

In reply to Doug:


I think this is exactly right. If you climb with mates who think that HVS is pushing the boat out, that will be your expectation too unless you are really exceptional. If you start hanging about with with people who think E5 is mid-grade you have to up your game, at least seconding.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I agree. This is perhaps a special case of the observation that people tend to climb to a similar level as those they climb with. Psychologically it's common to be limited by the aspirations of those around us and we tend to accept that what is hard for our friends must also be hard for us. Of course there are numerous exceptions (who may then raise the standard of their parters or climbing group) but it takes a relatively strong will to break the mould of his/her cohort level so many people end up continuing in a similar vein. Seems more common for trad than for sport - maybe because in sport it's more common for each climber to be doing different routes.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
Can't remember my first lead, but on my first weekend of climbing I led an HS. I moved up slightly since then (23 years ago), for many years I was leading VS with the occasional HVS, but after a series of injuries I'm probably back around HS.

I don't think I'm typical though.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

A group of us of similar standard, about VS, used to climb together in the 60's and 70's and apart from the initial progression from VD to VS and the occasional foray onto HVS we seemed to stay at that standard until one of the group broke away and started climbing (initially seconding) with some of the more accomplished and famous climbers of the day. 18 months later he returned to us and the standard of most of the group rose to what would be considered E3 in the modern grading system. This leads me to believe that it is the attitude of the friends you climb with that has the greatest influence especially if one of that group is talented, and perhaps even more important, ambitious enough to become the driving force of the group.

Mind you this was back in the day when pushing the boat out could have more serous consequences so not everyone felt similarly inclined and were happy to stay at VS. Seeing what a friend could achieve freed us to realise that the Extreme grade was not just for the superstars.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

I think your mate has made what could rank as one of the most inaccurate observations ever posted on UKC

In reply to Goucho:

Its daft but not THAT daft.

In reply to Offwidth:


LMAO

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Sounds like nonsense to be honest - I'm sure people may well regress to their 'original' grade over time but in general most will start lowish and get better...obviously

I started on Northumberland v-diffs/severes 30 years ago and got up to about E4/5 now I climb E2 and 7a on a good day but hope to improve!

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Regarding social influences as discussed above (I think it's a massive factor), I started hanging around with people that climbed font 8a and got myself from font 6s to font 7c in a period of about six months. I think the original question is looking at it the wrong way, just means that you haven't progressed in ability at all, surely?

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Pretty much what everyone else said. First route I ever did was an indoor French 4 on a slight overhang and I sweating so much it literally was dripping onto the instructor below (niiicee...). Just onsighted my first French 6c indoors yesterday (roughly 2 and 1/2 gap between those).

Like other people have said, the social influence definitely has a massive impact. I spent a year and a half bumbling around thinking 6a was nearly impossible, and then started climbing with new people, watching videos/reading mags etc and in a year grades went through the roof. Especially with trad climbing where a lot of it is in your head. I jumped onto an E1 for like my 5th trad lead just because me and my mate said 'why not?'. If I had been climbing with people who climbed at lower grades I wouldn't have even dreamed of it

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

There's something in this, but not the full monty of a generalisation. I was taken caving when I was young and my first ever cave trip was classed as Super Severe. I assumed that was what caving was like and carried on at that level until I swopped caves for climbing. Early expectations do have an impact, maybe not as much as who you knock around with though.

People will of course make progress, and I did that too with climbing from early VDiffs, Severes and VS's to some harder things. Also, the rate of progression is faster now as there is greater access and regularity of climbing than when I began in the 60's.

Now the same issue is coming back to bite me - new indoor climbers quickly move past the easy stuff into harder grades, with the result that route-setters around here at least seem to forget the bumbly grades that the ageing like me need to keep going for mileage and movement. Not many route-setters seem to know an easier route when they see one, maybe because they too are climbing well above that standard.

I could maybe offer myself as a Bumbly Grade Evaluator! There's a late career option....

Dave

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
OK - I asked for views and I got them - not all polite but thanks for all of them.
It is clear that most people do progress very significantly through grades in their climbing lifetimes and that my mate's premise was wrong for them. I think he was trying to say that if you introduce people at a high standard they often cope with it and it becomes their reference.
However the point about the level being set by the group you are in seems to suggest a normalising effect that I can relate to in my own experience. I currently climb with a group who push my standard but I have yet to progress to a point where I feel that I am completing climbs in good style at those higher grades.
I see lots of youngsters being started on easier climbs on my local wall but they then progress onto more difficult climbs at differential rates. What is it that determines this? It must be a mix of latent ability and motivation.
On a final note I would suggest that moving up through the grades is not the only progression to be made. Doing lots more quality climbs at your standard and improving the style in which you do them is just as important.
Thanks again for all your comments.

In reply to full stottie:
I'm not too sure that caving is a good comparison though.

For example, somewhere like Swildon's has various 'grades' depending on where you are. Top of the 20, piss easy. Paschendale, oh God, we're going to die!

Plus, if I'm climbing, I'll look at the route and make an evaluation as to whether it's 'do-able' at my level. If I'm caving, I don't think I've ever even looked at the grade. Just a 'eww,bugger that" or "ooh, that looks interesting, why not'

Edited for spelling.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

A good point but then again there are lots of excellent climbs in the lower grades, so the average grade cannot relate to the highest grade that someone eventually attains, but as age, injury, senility, marriage etc. take hold, so starts the steady decline!

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

I suppose the very first climb could be quite a random choice so I don't think that would necessarily be a pointer. I suppose if you never train / climb regularly then your fitness and strength will remain about the same which are key factors for climbing harder. I'd like to think that the learning of technique would count for something though. You tend not to lose that, like you never lose learning to ride a bike.

In reply to Oceanrower:

You're right that grades in caving are not as meaningful as climbing grades. I didn't know until years later that my first trips, and most of the subsquent ones, were classed as Super Severe - I'm not even sure when caves were given grades like this, but the people I first caved with looked for the hardest trips around and I naively followed them in the UK and abroad. Climbing though - that's been a different journey!

Dave