UKC

I was wondering, does anybody understand them? Moon Climbing are claiming they don't have to offer me a refund on goods I ordered over the Internet, unless they are faulty or not as described. Looking at the government website, it seems to say they do have to.

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

They've offered me a refund anyway, but their website states you can't get a refund on sale items.

Thanks.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

AFAIK you have 7 days to inspect the item to make sure it is what they say it is and that it fits before any return policy they might have kicks in. This is because you can't try it on in an online shop! They are also supposed to refund any postage incurred as a result. This is regardless of whether the item was in the sale or not.

After the 7 days (I can't remember if that's from the day of reciept or whatever) then they can refuse a refund unless the item is faulty in which case you are entitled to a refund or replacement at the cost of the seller.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


It seems clear, "You must offer a refund to customers if they return goods within 14 days of receiving them. "- no caveats regarding condition or sale price.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Thanks. Just got it today. As I said, they have offered a refund anyway, but it would be best for the website to be changed.

In reply to Cobbler:

I though it was clear, and I sent them the link and copied the relevant parts, but they're still denying I have a right to a refund. Strange.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Surely the customer would be responsible for return postage if they just change their mind about a product?

In reply to Removed UserBwox:


I think they have to refund the postage I paid them to ship to me, but not for return postage (unless the goods were faulty of course).

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

You have 14 days in normal circumstances to return without even giving a reason. There are exceptions though to the rules so really depends on your case but price is not normally an exception. You are even normally allowed to open the packaging on most goods to see and touch them, and still return them - many retailers say that opening prevents you returning. Again there are exceptions though.

All is good if they are refunding you - just a pity that they suggested otherwise. If you are unhappy with their approach you could always report the matter to Trading Standards. Retailers can be prosecuted for deliberately trying to confuse their buyers. Maybe it was just an inexperienced member of staff?

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

They're being very nice about it, but I can't help thinking they've got it wrong and need to change their website. I only bought a t-shirt, and it doesn't fit. It was at a discounted sale price.

I think it's illegal to state you can't have a refund, when you're legally entitled to one. I guess I still have my doubts because I'd expect an online retailer to know the law about online selling.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Many retailers are probably genuinely not clear on the rules which to be fair have changed and been refined over the years. I tend to think that for the smaller ones at least it is just ignorance/lack of training and they just have never got around to changing their websites/failed to train their staff/etc. That said some companies do try it on, since alot of the public are unaware of their rights and just accept what they are told.

Retailers are not permitted to deliberately deceive. Hard to prove its deliberate usually though. Reporting to TS allows others who do know the law to consider whether action is required against any company, if only say guidance. In this case though you have a refund so unlikely any action would be taken unless many other buyers have reported the same company.

In reply to Climbing Pieman:


I've suggested to them it would be worth checking with the government. I'd like to know myself anyway, for future reference. But it does seem pretty clear.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Slight tangent: how does this affect PPE e.g. climbing ropes. Normally you can't return these.

In reply to Removed UserBwox:

not so. Most retailers don't advertise they have to pay the postage for returning online-bought items but they are responsible for it. Whether someone decides they don't like it or it doesn't fit or the item isn't as described doesn't matter because of distance selling rules - you have more rights buying online for that reason.

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

Is it 14 days now for online items? that's good if it is because sometimes the turn around is tight to get it back in 7 days.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Tell them you're forwarding the details to Trading Standards.

That generally has the desired effect

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

Odd how all the 'un-clearness 'results in additional rights for retailers and loss of rights to the consumer. I'd be happy to be proved wrong by a 'confused retailer offering a 6 month refund window rather than the Statutory 7 days!

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Unless it has changed again recently, retailers ARE responsible for return postage costs UNLESS they state otherwise in their T&Cs. Retailers must always refund the outward cost of postage as this is considered part of the base service. If the item is faulty or misdescribed then all postage must be refunded.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Funny, because their T&Cs page is half right:

http://www.moonclimbing.com/terms-and-conditions

[quote]
Cancelation Policy

You have the right to cancel your order within 7 working days after the day of receipt. You must provide us with a written notice (this can be an email). If your payment has been processed it will be refunded within 30 days to the card used for the purchase (less delivery charge where appropriate). It is your responsibility to return the goods and any postage cost incurred by returning the goods in this situation is not refundable.
[/quote]

Since they don't appear to have caught up with the extension of the DSR returns period to 14 days, they would appear to be committing an offence of displaying a misleading notice. They also can't spell 'cancellation'...

In reply to bigbobbyking:


Not sure, never had to return one.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


It would appear the law has changed as of june last year -

"The seller's terms and conditions or returns policy should state who pays the cost of returning the item.
If they don't state this, then the seller has to cover the cost. "

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulati...

In reply to imkevinmc:



Like I said, they've already offered me a refund. I wasn't interested in getting them into trouble, I would presume it's an honest mistake. Obviously it would be good if it was corrected.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


It is stated in their T&Cs.

In reply to captain paranoia:


I presume it's run by climbers, and I mean real climbers, not the middle class types you get here.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Yes or should be! Most T&C use get out catch all phrases like about statutory rights, or errors and omissions excepted.

In reply to Indy:
Can't be loss of rights to consumer. Statutory rights can't be worsened by contract terms. Past experience showed that whilst the legal and senior staff in companies knew the rules, lots of shop floor staff were not fully trained. if your cynical maybe it was a decision not to update staff on changes !

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


No different than went on before when we bought everything from shops, for example the misleading of customers in electrical shops like Comet and similar claiming on in store notices that you were only allowed xxx although statute says otherwise. The store managers never backed down (might have even been bonused on it who knows) but I recall corresponding with the MDs office and getting a prompt refund.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Do you mean working class climbers don't have access to education? I'm pretty sure that 5-16 schooling has been compulsory for many years.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I was generous enough to think that maybe they'd spent too long in the US, where our double consonants are often made singular...

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cancelation

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Within 14 days you can get a refund +including your postage for any reason you like even if it's just that you change your mind. This includes eBay buy it now and set price sales. I know a few people who trade on eBay and are getting done over by the postage refund bit.

In reply to Philip:


I'm getting concerned you're being serious?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Have they just changed their Returns policy since it seems good now:

"No Quibble Guarantee

We want you to be 100% happy with your product so if for any reason you aren’t pleased return the goods to us within 28 days and we will happily refund or exchange your goods including the postage costs."

In reply to m0unt41n:


Not concerning sale items, it still says this...

"NOTE: Sale items cannot be refunded. If you wish to return your sale goods a credit note for the amount will be issued."

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Pretty sure this is not OK - otherwise you could just make every item in your shop a 'sale' item...

Only digital goods, stuff which is 'inseperably mixed' (like sand in concrete?) or tailor-made/personalized items are handled differently.

In reply to andrewmcleod:



I agree, I don't think this meets the distance selling regs.

Auction items are also exempt as the price is a one off thing.

In reply to bigbobbyking:

I don't know for sure without reading the legislation, but I don't believe there is an exception to the Distance Selling Regulations regarding PPE. I noticed the other day that Cotswold Outdoor has this to say:

Consumer Right to Cancel

If you wish to exercise your rights to cancel under the Consumer Contracts Regulations you will need to inform us in writing, either in a letter, email or by filling in the form on the reverse side of the delivery note, within 14 days of the delivery. We will then refund the outward postage costs but you will need to pay to get the goods back to us.

The Distance Selling Regulations allow climbing equipment and helmets bought online to be returned within 14 days. For the safety of our customers, we will need to destroy any climbing equipment and all helmets (including ski) that are returned to us for refund or exchange. If in doubt please Contact Us before you make your purchase. This does not affect your statutory rights.

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/returns-and-exchanges

In reply to bigbobbyking:


I don't know for sure without reading the legislation, but I don't believe there is an exception to the Distance Selling Regulations regarding PPE. I noticed the other day that Cotswold Outdoor has this to say:

Consumer Right to Cancel

If you wish to exercise your rights to cancel under the Consumer Contracts Regulations you will need to inform us in writing, either in a letter, email or by filling in the form on the reverse side of the delivery note, within 14 days of the delivery. We will then refund the outward postage costs but you will need to pay to get the goods back to us.

The Distance Selling Regulations allow climbing equipment and helmets bought online to be returned within 14 days. For the safety of our customers, we will need to destroy any climbing equipment and all helmets (including ski) that are returned to us for refund or exchange. If in doubt please Contact Us before you make your purchase. This does not affect your statutory rights.

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/returns-and-exchanges

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

This seems to have gone on a while without people noticing an elephant in the room

The gov rules seem to say according to various quotes above that you get a refund on faulty stuff or if its not as advertised.

This was a t shirt that didn't fit but was in good condition and as advertised.

In reply to Scarab9:

Goods that are faulty, not as advertised or unfit for purpose are covered by the Sale Of Goods Act, and if the t-shirt had been purchased in a physical shop then there would be no legal obligation to refund, however since it was bought on-line the Distance Selling Regulations apply and these stipulate that sellers must offer a full refund (with certain provisos) whatever the reason the customer wishes to return something for.

In reply to EddInaBox:


I think this is correct, and where the confusion has come from.

In reply to EddInaBox:


Interesting. Is there actually a law that says that PPE cannot be resold even if unused, or is it just shops being over-cautious? If there really is such a law you would have thought the shops would have fought for an exemption; there are several for similar cases.

In reply to EddInaBox:


If you buy an item and it turns out faulty or not-fit-for-purpose then you are entitled to a refund regardless of where you bought it. This is somewhat less likely to be sometihng you can try on or play with in a physical store but it does happen. You do have more rights under distance sales.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


I thought that if you buy something that turns out to be faulty the shop doesn't have to offer a refund and can offer a repair or replacement so long as the final result is that you have a product that is as it was supposed to be in the first place ie. in new condition and working as intended. If the item is not fit for purpose eg. due to poor design or materials, and therefore never will be fit for purpose no matter how many replacements you have then you are legally entitled to a refund.
The sales of goods act is often confused with the returns policy of the shop which must be advertised clearly and is often more generous than the legal requirements.

If you buy an item without being able to physically see and check the item first then distance selling rules apply (which were toughened up in late 2014) you get 14 days from the time of delivery where you can return an item for no specific reason at all for a full refund including any standard postage charge. The items must be unused (all seals must be present and complete) and it has to be in a resalable condition with all packaging etc.
You must inform the vendor within the 14 days by either letter, E-mail, phone or using their designated returns system ( like an online form) and unless specified otherwise you must pay the cost of the return postage.

This does not cover refunds for Auctions, cost of special delivery options, bespoke made to measure items, cut as requested, digital media, cosmetics, and a few other things i can't remember.

In reply to gethin_allen:
If the item is faulty, you can, if you have lost faith in the item*, assuming its a recent purchase and not sonething you've had for years, you can have either a store credit or a full refund. Some stores will insist you are only entitled to replacement or store credit but you are allowed any of the above.

*It might be that its a pair of boots that the sole fell off and you had a replacement once already for example.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
You do not have to have lost faith with a faulty item to ask for a full refund. Recent is generally accepted as up to 28 days, but varies depending on item bought and circumstances (for example did you see it/try it out/etc.)

In reply to Climbing Pieman:

No, I know, but it is usually the reason to ask for one!

In reply to andrewmcleod:


You can't just mark everything as a "sale" item. There are rules, specifically the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

As a slight diversion from the specific case, does anyone here think that distance selling and sales of goods acts are going to far in some respects?

I do. The recent alterations to the distance selling rules that mean the retailer has to refund postage costs if someone decides on a whim to return an item can really cost small businesses. I know people who has stopped selling certain items from their e-bay shops because they were getting a returns that were costing them a fortune in cases where the profit margins are low and postage is expensive.

Also, new rules as to the return of faulty goods that develop fail years after the initial purchase (worse still in scotland where the limitation is 6 years apparently). Some people need to take more responsibility for their purchasing actions and check out their goods when they arrive.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Sure, exempted from the PPE Regulations are "Second-hand PPE, except for that which, since its last use, has been subjected to further manufacture or refurbished and resold as new PPE."
Used PPE cannot then be sold as PPE since it has been excluded and it must be included to be sold. For a retailer to be satisfied it has never been used it´s reasonable as a minimum to require it to be returned in it´s original sealed condition but even this may well be in breach of the regulations, without a court case to establish a precedent it´s up to the retailer to decide how to intepret the guidance notes.

In reply to gethin_allen:
No, I don't think so.

DSR only mandates the retailer refund all postage in the even that the item was faulty. In the case that the item doesn't suit the buyer (because it's hard to gauge size and other properties from online descriptions), then I think the postage burden is less clear, and both parties share the risk. Whilst it's not my reading of the OP's link, many here have commented that a retailer may state the terms for return postage, and place all the burden on the customer. I think of that as being fair, given the potential cost of travel to a 'real shop' to try something before buying.

Online retailers can have lower prices because their overheads are lower: no bricks and mortar, high rent retail outlet, but a cheap warehouse somewhere. So having to refund postage is somewhat of a balancing burden. They could open a 'shop' if they don't like DSR.

As for faults and latent faults, well, in many such disputes, the item in question requires expert examination to determine if a latent fault was present. How is the average customer to know that there was a latent manufacturing fault that would cause a failure at a later date? Hey, maybe manufacturers and retailers could do that job, after all, they ought to be expert at assessing manufacturing quality. But they don't, because it's cheaper not to, even taking into account the cost of replacing the small number of manufacturing faults that do occur.

In reply to gethin_allen:


You have to ask why so many people were returning the items?

But dealing with this kind of returns should be included in the price of your items. If this means the price needs to be higher, then it needs to be higher.


The limitation has always been 6 years, because this is the limit of this kind of financial civil case thing. It has always been the case that goods should last for the 'reasonable lifetime of the product'. If you buy a washing machine with a one-year guarantee and it conks out after 13 months, you have not got what you paid for. A washing machine should last for at least a few years. Ergo the product was not fit for purpose, and you are entitled to a PARTIAL refund for the time that you should have received but did not.