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As in the thread title really. We're buying a house an planning to replace the boiler on the recommendation of our surveyor. Obviously I could buy a boiler direct and pay someone to install it, or I could (I assume) just leave the whole thing in their hands. Any tips on which is a better route to go down? The cost of the boiler is a very substantial part of the overall cost and obviously the function of the boiler is the most important result of the thing, so I want to make sure I'm getting what I want for the right price.
Whilst I'm on the subject, I have the same question for the electrical consumer unit but less bothered about that as it's cheaper and as long as it works I have no reason to choose one over another.
Whilst I'm on the subject, I have the same question for the electrical consumer unit but less bothered about that as it's cheaper and as long as it works I have no reason to choose one over another.
In reply to Oujmik:
Buy it from the person how is installing it.
It might be a bit cheaper to buy direct but what if it doesn't work out of the box or 6 months down the line.
You buy it from freds plumbing and it's up to Fred to sort it.
You buy it from boilers direct and pay Fred to fit it and working or not you owe Fred for the install.
You raise a warranty claim with boilers direct who send their local engineer who says sorry this isn't a warranty because Fred installed it wrong and gives you a large bill for the call out.
You phone Fred who insists it was correct and refuses to pay you back.
This goes on for months and months whilst you pay out more for an independent inspection hoping that it will show fault either with the product or with the installation but it is inconclusive and you are now out even more money.
Just buy it from Fred and leave him to it.
Buy it from the person how is installing it.
It might be a bit cheaper to buy direct but what if it doesn't work out of the box or 6 months down the line.
You buy it from freds plumbing and it's up to Fred to sort it.
You buy it from boilers direct and pay Fred to fit it and working or not you owe Fred for the install.
You raise a warranty claim with boilers direct who send their local engineer who says sorry this isn't a warranty because Fred installed it wrong and gives you a large bill for the call out.
You phone Fred who insists it was correct and refuses to pay you back.
This goes on for months and months whilst you pay out more for an independent inspection hoping that it will show fault either with the product or with the installation but it is inconclusive and you are now out even more money.
Just buy it from Fred and leave him to it.
7
In reply to Oujmik:
I would say that if you buy it yourself, you wont get the installer making a mark up on the price, or just recommending ones that are easy to install but not particularly efficient.
We're looking at getting a new boiler and like the look of these that generate electricity from the waste heat. We don't use enough gas at the moment to fit in with their plans, but perhaps they will make a version 2 that is for smaller houses. Has anyone seen these, got one, got a story to tell about one etc?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/energy-bills/11253072/Hi...
I would say that if you buy it yourself, you wont get the installer making a mark up on the price, or just recommending ones that are easy to install but not particularly efficient.
We're looking at getting a new boiler and like the look of these that generate electricity from the waste heat. We don't use enough gas at the moment to fit in with their plans, but perhaps they will make a version 2 that is for smaller houses. Has anyone seen these, got one, got a story to tell about one etc?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/energy-bills/11253072/Hi...
1
In reply to Oujmik:
Don't let your fitter choose it they will just choose the one they can make the most money on.. We did that and on their recommendation got an alpha which has leaked for ten years and doesn't give us the service we need.. Check your prices and then see what fitter can do.. If he can do the price and make something that should keep them sweet. I think the Bosch Worcester seem to offer a good guarantee and have been recommended them by a few people. Good luck.
Don't let your fitter choose it they will just choose the one they can make the most money on.. We did that and on their recommendation got an alpha which has leaked for ten years and doesn't give us the service we need.. Check your prices and then see what fitter can do.. If he can do the price and make something that should keep them sweet. I think the Bosch Worcester seem to offer a good guarantee and have been recommended them by a few people. Good luck.
In reply to Marcus Tierney:
To counter that I've got an Alpha HE CB25 which barring a very minor fault with the flow sensor (£15 and 5 minutes to fix) has not, touch wood, caused me any problems at all.
If it leaks it is probably installed wrongly.
Neil
To counter that I've got an Alpha HE CB25 which barring a very minor fault with the flow sensor (£15 and 5 minutes to fix) has not, touch wood, caused me any problems at all.
If it leaks it is probably installed wrongly.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Or its a Glow-worm.
Ours leaks regularly once or twice a year. Fortunately we have a contract with British Gas who come out and fix it and every time the engineer tells us the Glow-worms are crap, this happens all the time and we should get a Bosch.
> If it leaks it is probably installed wrongly.
Or its a Glow-worm.
Ours leaks regularly once or twice a year. Fortunately we have a contract with British Gas who come out and fix it and every time the engineer tells us the Glow-worms are crap, this happens all the time and we should get a Bosch.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Spot the errors above!
BG don't have 'Engineers', they have idiots, who clearly can't fix a leak.
How much are they robbing you for that 'service'?
And if you do go for a Bosch, don't whatever you do, get BG to install it for you.
> Or its a Glow-worm.
> Ours leaks regularly once or twice a year. Fortunately(1) we have a CONtract(2) with British Gas(3) who come out and fix it(4) and every time the engineer(5) tells us the Glow-worms are crap, this happens all the time and we should get a Bosch.
Spot the errors above!
BG don't have 'Engineers', they have idiots, who clearly can't fix a leak.
How much are they robbing you for that 'service'?
And if you do go for a Bosch, don't whatever you do, get BG to install it for you.
In reply to Lusk:
Fair enough, lets call them technicians. I wouldn't say they were idiots though, seem like hard working relatively competent people to me. They do fix the leak, it just comes back in about 9 or 10 months. So far I've had about 10 different people tell me that this Glow-worm boiler is crap, apparently BG put a lot of them in a few years ago and they are fixing them all the time so I'm willing to take their word for it.
About 20 quid a month. Much less than it will be costing them for all the parts that go in and two or three call outs a year.
No fear of that. As long as BG keep it on maintenance and come out next day when it leaks I'll stick with what I have. The BG prices for installation were completely uncompetitive when we got the current one in so we got someone else to do it.
> BG don't have 'Engineers', they have idiots, who clearly can't fix a leak.
Fair enough, lets call them technicians. I wouldn't say they were idiots though, seem like hard working relatively competent people to me. They do fix the leak, it just comes back in about 9 or 10 months. So far I've had about 10 different people tell me that this Glow-worm boiler is crap, apparently BG put a lot of them in a few years ago and they are fixing them all the time so I'm willing to take their word for it.
> How much are they robbing you for that 'service'?
About 20 quid a month. Much less than it will be costing them for all the parts that go in and two or three call outs a year.
> And if you do go for a Bosch, don't whatever you do, get BG to install it for you.
No fear of that. As long as BG keep it on maintenance and come out next day when it leaks I'll stick with what I have. The BG prices for installation were completely uncompetitive when we got the current one in so we got someone else to do it.
In reply to Oujmik:
The make of boiler is important to consider, but so is the person who installs it...if you find a gas engineer who is willing to carry out a boiler replacement for less than its worth, you have to ask why!?
Just as important as the make of boiler are things such as flushing the system through (powerflushing) before fitting it, and putting a magnetic filter on the system (magnaclean) to protect the boiler. And also the installers work ethic and attention to detail.
Get at least 3-4 quotes from different installers, have a look at what each quote is offering, decide which guy seems most switched on, and then look at the prices. If you think someone is trying to"rip you off", perhaps they are just offering a better service than the others and know that they are worth the cost.
Worcester, Glow worm, Vaillant are 3 of the best...but remember that they are all quite technical bits of kit that are made to a budget to keep home owners happy, so any of them can have problems. Consider extending the manufacturers warranty so any problems will be fixed for free.
The make of boiler is important to consider, but so is the person who installs it...if you find a gas engineer who is willing to carry out a boiler replacement for less than its worth, you have to ask why!?
Just as important as the make of boiler are things such as flushing the system through (powerflushing) before fitting it, and putting a magnetic filter on the system (magnaclean) to protect the boiler. And also the installers work ethic and attention to detail.
Get at least 3-4 quotes from different installers, have a look at what each quote is offering, decide which guy seems most switched on, and then look at the prices. If you think someone is trying to"rip you off", perhaps they are just offering a better service than the others and know that they are worth the cost.
Worcester, Glow worm, Vaillant are 3 of the best...but remember that they are all quite technical bits of kit that are made to a budget to keep home owners happy, so any of them can have problems. Consider extending the manufacturers warranty so any problems will be fixed for free.
1
In reply to Dax H:
Are there as many scenarios where problems can occur if Fred supplies and installs - what happens if he is on holiday for 2 weeks when it breaks down ?
> Just buy it from Fred and leave him to it.
Are there as many scenarios where problems can occur if Fred supplies and installs - what happens if he is on holiday for 2 weeks when it breaks down ?
In reply to MattJ753:
From some reading around (I live in a very hard water area) these are of questionable effect. A chemical descaler is likely to be more useful.
Neil
> putting a magnetic filter on the system (magnaclean) to protect the boiler
From some reading around (I live in a very hard water area) these are of questionable effect. A chemical descaler is likely to be more useful.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Buy a proper water softener,they are great and you use less soap and detergent too.
Buy a proper water softener,they are great and you use less soap and detergent too.
In reply to Neil Williams:
I am glad your Alpha is good, mine is rubbish. I am having a bath now, however it will take half an hour to get the trickle of warm water deep enough to fill it above my winkle.
Like Tom British Gas fix the leaks every year and each time they fit the same part which would cost a lot of money however the cost of the Bg contract also goes up in line with the number of call outs they make to fix the same fault each time. New boiler alert for us i think too.
I am glad your Alpha is good, mine is rubbish. I am having a bath now, however it will take half an hour to get the trickle of warm water deep enough to fill it above my winkle.
Like Tom British Gas fix the leaks every year and each time they fit the same part which would cost a lot of money however the cost of the Bg contract also goes up in line with the number of call outs they make to fix the same fault each time. New boiler alert for us i think too.
In reply to Oujmik:
I had the kitchen redone and I bought the units which the carpenter fitted. Got them a lot cheaper. But then the door surfaces developed faults and I got stuck between the supplier blaming the fitter and vice versa. But all became academic when the supplier went bust (but re appeared 3 months later with virtually same company name) and carpenter went to Dubai.
If you really want to be safe you would have to have a supply and fit from a national company who you have confidence will not go bust. Since any guarantee is only going to be as good as the company / person giving it.
I had the kitchen redone and I bought the units which the carpenter fitted. Got them a lot cheaper. But then the door surfaces developed faults and I got stuck between the supplier blaming the fitter and vice versa. But all became academic when the supplier went bust (but re appeared 3 months later with virtually same company name) and carpenter went to Dubai.
If you really want to be safe you would have to have a supply and fit from a national company who you have confidence will not go bust. Since any guarantee is only going to be as good as the company / person giving it.
In reply to Oujmik:
Had a bosch, no major faults but all the components were crammed in horrendously 24cdi. Had to change SRV and the induced draught fan. It would seem when the pressuriser or the heat exchanger goes you have to take the boiler half to bits
My vaillaint on the other hand seems well space out and access to each individual component is much easier. Only had to change the diverter valve and that was a 5 min job
Worth choosing something from the off that is well designed and likely to be easy to maintain in the long run.
Worth getting advice from a boiler engineer who fault finds and repairs them rather than a plumber who just installs them.
Had a bosch, no major faults but all the components were crammed in horrendously 24cdi. Had to change SRV and the induced draught fan. It would seem when the pressuriser or the heat exchanger goes you have to take the boiler half to bits
My vaillaint on the other hand seems well space out and access to each individual component is much easier. Only had to change the diverter valve and that was a 5 min job
Worth choosing something from the off that is well designed and likely to be easy to maintain in the long run.
Worth getting advice from a boiler engineer who fault finds and repairs them rather than a plumber who just installs them.
In reply to Oujmik:
Two points I'd make:
First, find the boiler you want and then find a tradesman who specialises in fitting the brand of boiler you want. Otherwise you'll get fobbed off with whatever the man thinks is best (i.e. from the supplier he usually uses, which may not even hold your preferred boiler in stock). So if you want a Vaillant boiler, for example, look for a Vaillant authorised installer.
Second, ask them to beat the best internet price you can find.
Two points I'd make:
First, find the boiler you want and then find a tradesman who specialises in fitting the brand of boiler you want. Otherwise you'll get fobbed off with whatever the man thinks is best (i.e. from the supplier he usually uses, which may not even hold your preferred boiler in stock). So if you want a Vaillant boiler, for example, look for a Vaillant authorised installer.
Second, ask them to beat the best internet price you can find.
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
Not a lot until he gets back. What would you expect discount boilers online to do with a boiler that Fred installed.
At best they will send their local approved engineer out to have a look and they will either fix it under warranty or claim that Fred didn't commission it correctly and charge you.
Unless you buy from a large company like BG there will always be the chance you can't get hold of your local guy because he is on holiday.
You pay your money and make your choice.
Personally I like to deal with small local companies and have them supply and install that way if things go wrong I have a single point of contact.
It is normally cheaper than using a big outfit like BG but a little bit more expensive than sourcing the parts cheap on line and having a local bloke fit them. On the odd time it does go wrong it gets sorted quickly. Conversely I have tight arsed mates who buy cheap and have someone else install and when that goes wrong it has turned in to a nightmare.
My sanity and stress levels are well worth the extra 10% in cost and I am helping support my local area so it's a win win to me.
> Are there as many scenarios where problems can occur if Fred supplies and installs - what happens if he is on holiday for 2 weeks when it breaks down ?
Not a lot until he gets back. What would you expect discount boilers online to do with a boiler that Fred installed.
At best they will send their local approved engineer out to have a look and they will either fix it under warranty or claim that Fred didn't commission it correctly and charge you.
Unless you buy from a large company like BG there will always be the chance you can't get hold of your local guy because he is on holiday.
You pay your money and make your choice.
Personally I like to deal with small local companies and have them supply and install that way if things go wrong I have a single point of contact.
It is normally cheaper than using a big outfit like BG but a little bit more expensive than sourcing the parts cheap on line and having a local bloke fit them. On the odd time it does go wrong it gets sorted quickly. Conversely I have tight arsed mates who buy cheap and have someone else install and when that goes wrong it has turned in to a nightmare.
My sanity and stress levels are well worth the extra 10% in cost and I am helping support my local area so it's a win win to me.
2
In reply to Oujmik:
I'm a Gas Safe registered plumber. Here are my thoughts:
1) dread-i and Marcus Tierney - you seem to have had bad luck with your choice of installer. Most of us don't just throw in the cheapest one, or the one we can make a bigger profit on. We take pride in our reputation, and will fit those which will not make us look bad. If a customer takes our recommendation and it's unreliable, it reflects badly on us.
2) With the above in mind, we fit those boilers we find good value, reliable, with long warranties (that the manufacturer will actually honour!) and reasonably priced spares should the boiler break down outside the warranty period.
3) Yes, you can buy cheaply on the internet. But you may not know exactly what's needed, and order wrongly. For example there are strict regulations about the placement of flues. You may need extensions, bends, a plume management kit. If you order the boiler yourself, it's unlikely that the installer will be too happy to spec all this for you. Then you have a situation where work grinds to a halt whilst you order the missing components. What happens if the boiler is damaged in transit? If the installer has bought it from a merchant he has a relationship with, it can be rectified almost immediately. My normal merchant has delivered a new boiler to me within the hour when one was found to be damaged inside the casing.
4) Accredited installers can often offer longer warranties than non-accredited. If you buy the boiler, you will register the warranty, and get the shorter one.
5) Yes, installers charge a markup on materials. I add 20%. You may think this is wrong. But why? That percentage covers the fact that I have spent unpaid time attending manufacturers training in order to gain the accreditation required to offer extended warranties. It covers my expertise in knowing what to spec and order. It covers my time and effort servicing the warranty - I will go out first to look at any problem, free of charge, because if you call the manufacturer out, and it's not a boiler fault, they will charge quite a large fee.
A lot of people seem to think we're out to rip people off by adding a markup to materials. But we are running businesses! The internet sellers are cheap for sure but woe betide you if there are problems with what you've ordered. It will take time and effort to resolve, during which, you're half way through the install and your old boiler has been uninstalled.
Finally, get 3 or 4 quotes from trusted, recommended local traders. Avoid British Gas, Homeserve etc. They are expensive and normally employ contractors to install, at a very low rate. Your fitter won't have any investment in doing a decent job as he's being paid peanuts and it's not his reputation on the line.
Listen to your chosen installer's advice. Don't assume that because a manufacturer advertises all over the place, their boilers are good. A certain very well-known brand use a lot of plastic components. Within the trade it's well know that these components split and destroy the boiler. Lots of installers have turned away from them, but the public perception is that they are great because they spend millions on advertising. By all means challenge the installer's opinion, ask for his reasons, look at reviews, but understand that he knows boilers well, knows what is reliable and trust his judgement. If he's any good and well-recommended, he'll be more interested in building a long-term relationship with his customers than in making a quick buck, and will give you the best advice.
Just my thoughts. Good luck!
I'm a Gas Safe registered plumber. Here are my thoughts:
1) dread-i and Marcus Tierney - you seem to have had bad luck with your choice of installer. Most of us don't just throw in the cheapest one, or the one we can make a bigger profit on. We take pride in our reputation, and will fit those which will not make us look bad. If a customer takes our recommendation and it's unreliable, it reflects badly on us.
2) With the above in mind, we fit those boilers we find good value, reliable, with long warranties (that the manufacturer will actually honour!) and reasonably priced spares should the boiler break down outside the warranty period.
3) Yes, you can buy cheaply on the internet. But you may not know exactly what's needed, and order wrongly. For example there are strict regulations about the placement of flues. You may need extensions, bends, a plume management kit. If you order the boiler yourself, it's unlikely that the installer will be too happy to spec all this for you. Then you have a situation where work grinds to a halt whilst you order the missing components. What happens if the boiler is damaged in transit? If the installer has bought it from a merchant he has a relationship with, it can be rectified almost immediately. My normal merchant has delivered a new boiler to me within the hour when one was found to be damaged inside the casing.
4) Accredited installers can often offer longer warranties than non-accredited. If you buy the boiler, you will register the warranty, and get the shorter one.
5) Yes, installers charge a markup on materials. I add 20%. You may think this is wrong. But why? That percentage covers the fact that I have spent unpaid time attending manufacturers training in order to gain the accreditation required to offer extended warranties. It covers my expertise in knowing what to spec and order. It covers my time and effort servicing the warranty - I will go out first to look at any problem, free of charge, because if you call the manufacturer out, and it's not a boiler fault, they will charge quite a large fee.
A lot of people seem to think we're out to rip people off by adding a markup to materials. But we are running businesses! The internet sellers are cheap for sure but woe betide you if there are problems with what you've ordered. It will take time and effort to resolve, during which, you're half way through the install and your old boiler has been uninstalled.
Finally, get 3 or 4 quotes from trusted, recommended local traders. Avoid British Gas, Homeserve etc. They are expensive and normally employ contractors to install, at a very low rate. Your fitter won't have any investment in doing a decent job as he's being paid peanuts and it's not his reputation on the line.
Listen to your chosen installer's advice. Don't assume that because a manufacturer advertises all over the place, their boilers are good. A certain very well-known brand use a lot of plastic components. Within the trade it's well know that these components split and destroy the boiler. Lots of installers have turned away from them, but the public perception is that they are great because they spend millions on advertising. By all means challenge the installer's opinion, ask for his reasons, look at reviews, but understand that he knows boilers well, knows what is reliable and trust his judgement. If he's any good and well-recommended, he'll be more interested in building a long-term relationship with his customers than in making a quick buck, and will give you the best advice.
Just my thoughts. Good luck!
6
In reply to Cthulhu:
20% mark up to the end user is very fair. People tend to forget that you go out and quote knowing that others are doing the same, thus takes time and costs money.
Training is a nightmare, I am in the compressed air game and last year I lost a total of 20 days to training, some I paid for and some free from the manufacturer but I still have to pay for food and accommodation and fuel to get there.
Boilers not being my thing I never even thought of people buying the wrong thing but I can well believe it happens.
We see it all the time in our game, you get called to a small factory because their compressor isn't working and often it's because they either bought it new online or second hand from eBay and it's either too small or too big for their requirements and I end up selling them one that is the right size.
> 5) Yes, installers charge a markup on materials. I add 20%. You may think this is wrong. But why? That percentage covers the fact that I have spent unpaid time attending manufacturers training in order to gain the accreditation required to offer extended warranties. It covers my expertise in knowing what to spec and order. It covers my time and effort servicing the warranty - I will go out first to look at any problem, free of charge, because if you call the manufacturer out, and it's not a boiler fault, they will charge quite a large fee.
20% mark up to the end user is very fair. People tend to forget that you go out and quote knowing that others are doing the same, thus takes time and costs money.
Training is a nightmare, I am in the compressed air game and last year I lost a total of 20 days to training, some I paid for and some free from the manufacturer but I still have to pay for food and accommodation and fuel to get there.
Boilers not being my thing I never even thought of people buying the wrong thing but I can well believe it happens.
We see it all the time in our game, you get called to a small factory because their compressor isn't working and often it's because they either bought it new online or second hand from eBay and it's either too small or too big for their requirements and I end up selling them one that is the right size.
1
In reply to Marcus Tierney:
Worcester Bosch are not as good as they used to be, they are not as well engineered. They rely on past reputation and customers paying for a brand name. Ideal or intergas are better made for less money. Probably the Skoda of boilers, you aren't paying the extra for the name. Vailant are OK.
Worcester Bosch are not as good as they used to be, they are not as well engineered. They rely on past reputation and customers paying for a brand name. Ideal or intergas are better made for less money. Probably the Skoda of boilers, you aren't paying the extra for the name. Vailant are OK.
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
Mr marsbar gets someone to cover for him when he is on holiday whenever possible.
Mr marsbar gets someone to cover for him when he is on holiday whenever possible.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Are you conflating magnetic system filters (e.g. Magnaclean) with magnetic limescale reducers (e.g. Calmag)?
The former are invaluable in protecting new boilers fitted on old pipework as even the most thorough powerflush won't remove all magnetite, and inhibitor chemicals break down with time and dilution if the system is topped up.
The latter are supposed to reduce limescale in hard water areas and are of dubious benefit in my opinion but manufacturers insist on them and approve them despite the science behind them being somewhat flaky in my view.
> From some reading around (I live in a very hard water area) these are of questionable effect. A chemical descaler is likely to be more useful.
Are you conflating magnetic system filters (e.g. Magnaclean) with magnetic limescale reducers (e.g. Calmag)?
The former are invaluable in protecting new boilers fitted on old pipework as even the most thorough powerflush won't remove all magnetite, and inhibitor chemicals break down with time and dilution if the system is topped up.
The latter are supposed to reduce limescale in hard water areas and are of dubious benefit in my opinion but manufacturers insist on them and approve them despite the science behind them being somewhat flaky in my view.
Post edited at 21:04
In reply to Cthulhu:
Wise words and ones that I will probably act upon, I need a new boiler the Alpha is leaking again, will do the homework and find a local plumber, may consider Bg if they can come up with a price but i doubt it. Pity your not local to Nottingham you could quote me !
Wise words and ones that I will probably act upon, I need a new boiler the Alpha is leaking again, will do the homework and find a local plumber, may consider Bg if they can come up with a price but i doubt it. Pity your not local to Nottingham you could quote me !
In reply to Oujmik:
I have just had a Baxi boiler and new pressurised cylinder installed by a local firm. It's what they recommended, they seemed to know their stuff, and had been very competent in earlier minor repairs I'd asked them to do to the previous (Vaillant) boiler, so I went with what they said and let them get on with it. I feel happy knowing that, if anything goes wrong, they can't blame anyone else. When something did go wrong, soon after installation, they came and fixed it straight away.
I have just had a Baxi boiler and new pressurised cylinder installed by a local firm. It's what they recommended, they seemed to know their stuff, and had been very competent in earlier minor repairs I'd asked them to do to the previous (Vaillant) boiler, so I went with what they said and let them get on with it. I feel happy knowing that, if anything goes wrong, they can't blame anyone else. When something did go wrong, soon after installation, they came and fixed it straight away.
1
In reply to Cthulhu:
I thought of you when I saw the thread, didn't realise you still popped in.
What do you do about VAT? Someone up the thread says it's only 5% via an installer but I though it was 20% on the whole job? That was always the attraction of using labour only, I know it's changed to try to stop that but I can't believe it's gone down? ( Assuming no special circs, over 60s etc).
I thought of you when I saw the thread, didn't realise you still popped in.
What do you do about VAT? Someone up the thread says it's only 5% via an installer but I though it was 20% on the whole job? That was always the attraction of using labour only, I know it's changed to try to stop that but I can't believe it's gone down? ( Assuming no special circs, over 60s etc).
In reply to winhill:
I'm not VAT registered so there is neither 5% nor 20% to pay above what I pay at the merchant's. I work very hard each year to stay below the threshold...
I'm not VAT registered so there is neither 5% nor 20% to pay above what I pay at the merchant's. I work very hard each year to stay below the threshold...
In reply to Cthulhu:
Ah, sorry, yes I was.
Neil
> Are you conflating magnetic system filters (e.g. Magnaclean) with magnetic limescale reducers (e.g. Calmag)?
> The former are invaluable in protecting new boilers fitted on old pipework as even the most thorough powerflush won't remove all magnetite, and inhibitor chemicals break down with time and dilution if the system is topped up.
Ah, sorry, yes I was.
Neil
In reply to Oujmik:
Thanks for the advice all. I think through an installer is a good way to go. I've found a local installer who seems good and exchanged a few e-mails, but now I'm having second thoughts on the whole thing. The boiler in-situ is a 20+ (guessing based on the style) year old combi boiler. The recommendation of the surveyor was to replace with a condensing combi.
Our current rented place has a Worcester condensing combi so I know a bit about how they work and how the improvements in efficiency are gained so I'm confident we would have lower bills with a condensing boiler. However, it would take a long time to pay for itself and I've heard that due to their complexity and the a acidic residues in the condenser they generally only last 10 years, so I'm concerned that it's a false economy. What do you think?
Thanks for the advice all. I think through an installer is a good way to go. I've found a local installer who seems good and exchanged a few e-mails, but now I'm having second thoughts on the whole thing. The boiler in-situ is a 20+ (guessing based on the style) year old combi boiler. The recommendation of the surveyor was to replace with a condensing combi.
Our current rented place has a Worcester condensing combi so I know a bit about how they work and how the improvements in efficiency are gained so I'm confident we would have lower bills with a condensing boiler. However, it would take a long time to pay for itself and I've heard that due to their complexity and the a acidic residues in the condenser they generally only last 10 years, so I'm concerned that it's a false economy. What do you think?
In reply to Oujmik:
AIUI it is not legal to install a new non-condensing boiler any more, per the Building Regs, except for a few circumstances where it isn't possible to install a condensing one.
ref: http://www.baxi.co.uk/gas-boilers/condensing-vs-non-condensing-boilers.htm
Neil
AIUI it is not legal to install a new non-condensing boiler any more, per the Building Regs, except for a few circumstances where it isn't possible to install a condensing one.
ref: http://www.baxi.co.uk/gas-boilers/condensing-vs-non-condensing-boilers.htm
Neil
Post edited at 09:40
In reply to Neil Williams:
I know it's not legal to install a non-condensing one, but I can keep the existing one and if it does another ten years with minimal issues it will be far cheaper than fitting a new one which only lasts ten years.
I know it's not legal to install a non-condensing one, but I can keep the existing one and if it does another ten years with minimal issues it will be far cheaper than fitting a new one which only lasts ten years.
In reply to Cthulhu:
All good advice - I wish you lived near me. I phoned the few gas installers and plumbers listed as local in my area. Most rang out, or went to an answer machine, but didn't respond to messages. The only one that did I arranged an appointment for. I had BG round in the morning, the local supplier in the afternoon. BG took an hour and half, removed a sample of the possibly asbestos tile, measured the house dimensions, the space for the boiler, talked me through siting options etc. The local supplier was there less than 5 minutes, didn't take measurements, or anything He glanced at the (25 yearold dusty) possibly asbestos tile when I mentioned it and said 'nah it won't be'. Then he told me it would be about £2.5k all in (a grand cheaper than BG) and he'd email me a quote. I asked if that would be a fixed price, and he said no. The email never came. I ended up using BG simply because they were all that was available.
All good advice - I wish you lived near me. I phoned the few gas installers and plumbers listed as local in my area. Most rang out, or went to an answer machine, but didn't respond to messages. The only one that did I arranged an appointment for. I had BG round in the morning, the local supplier in the afternoon. BG took an hour and half, removed a sample of the possibly asbestos tile, measured the house dimensions, the space for the boiler, talked me through siting options etc. The local supplier was there less than 5 minutes, didn't take measurements, or anything He glanced at the (25 yearold dusty) possibly asbestos tile when I mentioned it and said 'nah it won't be'. Then he told me it would be about £2.5k all in (a grand cheaper than BG) and he'd email me a quote. I asked if that would be a fixed price, and he said no. The email never came. I ended up using BG simply because they were all that was available.
In reply to Oujmik:
Personally I don't think I will replace mine (though it is a condensing one) until it becomes unreliable.
Personally I don't think I will replace mine (though it is a condensing one) until it becomes unreliable.
In reply to Oujmik:
There is a commonly-held belief that modern boilers only last 10 years, that they are designed to fail etc. This is not entirely true. Some are better engineered than others of course, but if you choose a well-made boiler, the system is thoroughly flushed before commissioning, a magnetic filter fitted, correctly dosed with inhibitor and it's regularly serviced, you will get a lot more than 10 years out of the boiler.
Much like cars - use crappy oil, never change oil and filter, rag the hell out of it, it won't last. Maintain it well and it'll go on for years.
There is a commonly-held belief that modern boilers only last 10 years, that they are designed to fail etc. This is not entirely true. Some are better engineered than others of course, but if you choose a well-made boiler, the system is thoroughly flushed before commissioning, a magnetic filter fitted, correctly dosed with inhibitor and it's regularly serviced, you will get a lot more than 10 years out of the boiler.
Much like cars - use crappy oil, never change oil and filter, rag the hell out of it, it won't last. Maintain it well and it'll go on for years.
Post edited at 12:29
In reply to Cthulhu:
Thanks, any tips on which makes are well-made? I'd been looking at Worcester but without taking one to pieces (and getting some education on boiler design) I have little to go on beyond the brand and the price.
Thanks, any tips on which makes are well-made? I'd been looking at Worcester but without taking one to pieces (and getting some education on boiler design) I have little to go on beyond the brand and the price.
In reply to Oujmik:
My boilers of choice are either Ideal Logic Plus, Ideal Vogue or Intergas Compact HRE.
Logic Plus have a 7 year warranty, aluminium heat exchanger, good modulation ratios for efficiency.
Vogues have a 10-year warranty, stainless steel heat exchanger, even better modulation. Real premium boiler, probably the best on the market at the moment.
Intergas are not pretty, but are basically bulletproof. Only 4 moving parts, and neither of the bits that most commonly fail - plate heat exchanger and diverter valve. When my Vaillant packs up I will have an Intergas.
Worcester's current range are the reason so many in the industry are turning away from them. Loads of plastic/composite internals, crammed so tightly that replacing parts often require the boiler to be taken off the wall, and a higher breakdown rate than their previous ranges.
Vaillant are solid, but you're paying a premium for the brand name. Ideals are of equivalent (Logic Plus) or better (Vogue) quality, but cheaper.
My boilers of choice are either Ideal Logic Plus, Ideal Vogue or Intergas Compact HRE.
Logic Plus have a 7 year warranty, aluminium heat exchanger, good modulation ratios for efficiency.
Vogues have a 10-year warranty, stainless steel heat exchanger, even better modulation. Real premium boiler, probably the best on the market at the moment.
Intergas are not pretty, but are basically bulletproof. Only 4 moving parts, and neither of the bits that most commonly fail - plate heat exchanger and diverter valve. When my Vaillant packs up I will have an Intergas.
Worcester's current range are the reason so many in the industry are turning away from them. Loads of plastic/composite internals, crammed so tightly that replacing parts often require the boiler to be taken off the wall, and a higher breakdown rate than their previous ranges.
Vaillant are solid, but you're paying a premium for the brand name. Ideals are of equivalent (Logic Plus) or better (Vogue) quality, but cheaper.
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