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Just wondering what the best approach is to rigging an abseil on a sea-cliff - say I'm using a 60m rope on a 40m climb (I actually have Sea Mist and Bow-Shaped Slab in Pembroke in mind here). Clearly I don't want to just throw the whole rope down and have 20m of rope floating around in the sea, and I also probably don't want a 20m coil at the bottom to snag on everything when I pull the rope back up either. Possibly if I could feed the rope down with a clear line of sight it would be possible to get the length right, but I doubt that's always possible.
What technique would you use to rig the abseil the best way?
Cheers, Barry.
Post edited at 09:58
1
In reply to Oceanrower:
I've tried that ( and commented on here about it ) but found that the bag seems to spin round twisting the rope. I have since been flaking the rope into a rucksack and wearing it, pulling the rope out over my shoulder as I descend, this means you have a minimal amount of rope around you.
> Hang a bag below you with the rope in it. It will pay out as you descend.
I've tried that ( and commented on here about it ) but found that the bag seems to spin round twisting the rope. I have since been flaking the rope into a rucksack and wearing it, pulling the rope out over my shoulder as I descend, this means you have a minimal amount of rope around you.
In reply to BarrySW19:
Assuming you're not soloing, clip the end (either doing a big knot for this, or doing it a metre from the end of the rope) of the ab rope in to you, do the coils thing (over your shoulder, or tied just after you're tied into the end), ab down (releasing coils if your guess is wrong). Secure yourself as required at the bottom. Then get your partner to pull up the slack, either being able to communicate with you to tell him when enough's gone up, or him just knowing because he's trying to pull you up the cliff, then get him to either re-clip the ab with a new figure of 8 etc. with the slack in, or using a handily set up releasable abseil in the first place, which just needs stoppers taken out and then put back in again.
Of it's a nice easy ab you can just unclip before/ whilst he abs down, or if it's a tricky one you can stay clipped in and guide him as necessary.
Assuming you're not soloing, clip the end (either doing a big knot for this, or doing it a metre from the end of the rope) of the ab rope in to you, do the coils thing (over your shoulder, or tied just after you're tied into the end), ab down (releasing coils if your guess is wrong). Secure yourself as required at the bottom. Then get your partner to pull up the slack, either being able to communicate with you to tell him when enough's gone up, or him just knowing because he's trying to pull you up the cliff, then get him to either re-clip the ab with a new figure of 8 etc. with the slack in, or using a handily set up releasable abseil in the first place, which just needs stoppers taken out and then put back in again.
Of it's a nice easy ab you can just unclip before/ whilst he abs down, or if it's a tricky one you can stay clipped in and guide him as necessary.
Post edited at 10:14
1
In reply to Oceanrower:
Doesn't this mean that afterwards you need to haul the ab-rope along with the bag containing the remaining rope back up the cliff, with the usual snag potential involved?
> Hang a bag below you with the rope in it. It will pay out as you descend.
Doesn't this mean that afterwards you need to haul the ab-rope along with the bag containing the remaining rope back up the cliff, with the usual snag potential involved?
In reply to BarrySW19:
I use a bag most of the time, and in my experience the advantages of the bag outweigh the occasional hassle of pulling the bag up. I've never had to resort to abseiling back down to unsnag the bag.
And you can leave your jumars, spare clothes, etc, in the bag for pulling up later.
I use a bag most of the time, and in my experience the advantages of the bag outweigh the occasional hassle of pulling the bag up. I've never had to resort to abseiling back down to unsnag the bag.
And you can leave your jumars, spare clothes, etc, in the bag for pulling up later.
In reply to deepstar:
The holster method is similar but doesn't require a bag (See "Climbing Self-Rescue" for a description, or Google it). Not something I've tried, though.
The holster method is similar but doesn't require a bag (See "Climbing Self-Rescue" for a description, or Google it). Not something I've tried, though.
In reply to BarrySW19:
The most superior method by a long way-
Throw the rope in the sea, ab down, get your mate to pull up the slack then laugh as he helps to dry the rope out on the way down.
The most superior method by a long way-
Throw the rope in the sea, ab down, get your mate to pull up the slack then laugh as he helps to dry the rope out on the way down.
7
In reply to BarrySW19:
That could work. I have an old A5 one which is bomb proof (I've replaced the zip once), and has survived years of being thrown down sea cliffs onto boulders.
That could work. I have an old A5 one which is bomb proof (I've replaced the zip once), and has survived years of being thrown down sea cliffs onto boulders.
In reply to BarrySW19:
In my Mountain Skills Handbook [P. Hill, S. Johnson] it recommends tying two figure 8s in the bight on the rope facing each other (with the distance between them being the distance you want to "cut off"), and clipping the two newly formed loops with a crab (I guess you would then attach yourself below this join). Could also do this with an alpine butterfly / overhand if you didn't want to use a crab. Not yet tried this myself so can't comment on its effectiveness.
In my Mountain Skills Handbook [P. Hill, S. Johnson] it recommends tying two figure 8s in the bight on the rope facing each other (with the distance between them being the distance you want to "cut off"), and clipping the two newly formed loops with a crab (I guess you would then attach yourself below this join). Could also do this with an alpine butterfly / overhand if you didn't want to use a crab. Not yet tried this myself so can't comment on its effectiveness.
Post edited at 15:48
In reply to BarrySW19: lower the rope down to the bottom then put a knot in it at the top and leave the spare twenty metre at the anchor ?
In reply to Wsdconst:
I can see that would be a good solution if you can see the rope all the way down, and it's possible to lower the rope cleanly, but in a situation where you can't see, or the rope won't slowly lower (high winds, slabby route, etc.) I don't think this will be possible.
> lower the rope down to the bottom then put a knot in it at the top and leave the spare twenty metre at the anchor ?
I can see that would be a good solution if you can see the rope all the way down, and it's possible to lower the rope cleanly, but in a situation where you can't see, or the rope won't slowly lower (high winds, slabby route, etc.) I don't think this will be possible.
In reply to BarrySW19:
estimate how long the abseil is, measure out that length of rope, toss it down, pull it back up - if it's wet, it's long enough, if not, throw more rope down and check again.
estimate how long the abseil is, measure out that length of rope, toss it down, pull it back up - if it's wet, it's long enough, if not, throw more rope down and check again.
3
In reply to BarrySW19:
Yeah that's a good point you could always tie a weight on the end of the rope and throw it off away from you.i think it's more about choosing the best method once you're actually stood at the top and can factor everything in
Yeah that's a good point you could always tie a weight on the end of the rope and throw it off away from you.i think it's more about choosing the best method once you're actually stood at the top and can factor everything in
In reply to BarrySW19:
I think you're over-thinking things a bit here :-/ If you know the climb is 40m then why not just measure out 40m of your 60m ab rope at the top (half way mark plus 10m plus couple of spare metres to be sure) then chuck it down? Just remember to double check you've judged it right as soon as you can see the bottom of the route.
Of course you'll need to use a means of feeding it as you go if it's just too windy to throw it down - as suggested by others
Ian
I think you're over-thinking things a bit here :-/ If you know the climb is 40m then why not just measure out 40m of your 60m ab rope at the top (half way mark plus 10m plus couple of spare metres to be sure) then chuck it down? Just remember to double check you've judged it right as soon as you can see the bottom of the route.
Of course you'll need to use a means of feeding it as you go if it's just too windy to throw it down - as suggested by others
Ian
2
In reply to Wsdconst:
I personally wouldn't be considering tying weight to the end of a rope and chucking it over the edge of a crag, potentially onto other people!
I personally wouldn't be considering tying weight to the end of a rope and chucking it over the edge of a crag, potentially onto other people!
1
In reply to BarrySW19:
If you dont necessarily have to abseil then get your partner to lower you down (munter hitch on anchor and you tied in to other end) then once you get to the bottom partner ties munter hitch off and abbs down behind you
P.S. this comes from a canyoning background where ropes and water is really bad
David
If you dont necessarily have to abseil then get your partner to lower you down (munter hitch on anchor and you tied in to other end) then once you get to the bottom partner ties munter hitch off and abbs down behind you
P.S. this comes from a canyoning background where ropes and water is really bad
David
1
1
In reply to BarrySW19:
This is easier than you think. If the rope is much too long shorten it a bit. Clip the end to your harness and throw the rest down. Rap down keeping the rope out of the water by clipping a bight to you if needed. Stack rope at base, which if you rap to the right facing out is not sea washed and has a good ledge
This is easier than you think. If the rope is much too long shorten it a bit. Clip the end to your harness and throw the rest down. Rap down keeping the rope out of the water by clipping a bight to you if needed. Stack rope at base, which if you rap to the right facing out is not sea washed and has a good ledge
In reply to oscaig:
Yes, I was going to suggest counting out 20m to leave at top (erring on the side of not too much) but that would work too.
Yes, I was going to suggest counting out 20m to leave at top (erring on the side of not too much) but that would work too.
In reply to BarrySW19:
Carefully ! Obviously with clear line of sight to the ledge you are aiming at, shorten the ab rope as needed. Lower the rope if possible rather than lob it SAS style (less chance of hitting someone, if nothing else). If you can't see where you are heading, then lower off plenty of rope with a knot in the end. When you are down, neatly coil the rope above the water line and take the knot out (you don't want it snagging on the way up)
Carefully ! Obviously with clear line of sight to the ledge you are aiming at, shorten the ab rope as needed. Lower the rope if possible rather than lob it SAS style (less chance of hitting someone, if nothing else). If you can't see where you are heading, then lower off plenty of rope with a knot in the end. When you are down, neatly coil the rope above the water line and take the knot out (you don't want it snagging on the way up)
In reply to climber david:
Hi David,
Personally, I'd be very cautious with any solutions that involve lowering. It's so easy to damage ropes, and bodies (!), when lowering someone on a weighted rope. In reality, few abseils over 40m+ will not run over an edge at some point.
Perhaps this method is used in canyoning as there are more likely to be very short, water-smoothed, or completely free-hanging abs?
All the best,
Danny.
Hi David,
Personally, I'd be very cautious with any solutions that involve lowering. It's so easy to damage ropes, and bodies (!), when lowering someone on a weighted rope. In reality, few abseils over 40m+ will not run over an edge at some point.
Perhaps this method is used in canyoning as there are more likely to be very short, water-smoothed, or completely free-hanging abs?
All the best,
Danny.
In reply to DannyC:
a weighted moving rope running over an edge is preferable to a weighted static rope over an edge surely.
a weighted moving rope running over an edge is preferable to a weighted static rope over an edge surely.
In reply to SteveD:
Hi Steve,
Crossed wires here, I think.
I'm saying that, when getting to the base of a 40m+ route, there are very few circumstances when it is better to lower someone else (eg the rope itself moves) than abseil (ie the person moves themselves down a rope that doesn't move).
I wasn't discussing the merits of static v dynamic rope. I was responding to the suggestion from Climber David above.
Hope that makes sense.
DAnny.
Hi Steve,
Crossed wires here, I think.
I'm saying that, when getting to the base of a 40m+ route, there are very few circumstances when it is better to lower someone else (eg the rope itself moves) than abseil (ie the person moves themselves down a rope that doesn't move).
I wasn't discussing the merits of static v dynamic rope. I was responding to the suggestion from Climber David above.
Hope that makes sense.
DAnny.
In reply to DannyC:
No, I understood you, on our Cliff rescue setups the static (non-moving) rope is the one that gets damaged unless you are able to get a lot of protection under it, the safety or lowering/hauling rope that moves up and down is generally fine.
In a situation like running over a soft rock I can see that a moving rope will damage the edge.
At the end of the day the rope will always move, even static rope bounces.
No, I understood you, on our Cliff rescue setups the static (non-moving) rope is the one that gets damaged unless you are able to get a lot of protection under it, the safety or lowering/hauling rope that moves up and down is generally fine.
In a situation like running over a soft rock I can see that a moving rope will damage the edge.
At the end of the day the rope will always move, even static rope bounces.
In reply to SteveD:
Hi,
In nearly all circumstances, I would much rather abseil (regardless of whether static or dynamic rope) than be lowered. The latter approach:
- Potentially damages the rock
- Increases likelihood of damage to the rope
- Creates a situation where it is hard to prevent rubbing of the rope on the cliff edge between the person doing the lowering and the person being lowered
- Means that rope protectors can't easily be used (If I know I'm going to be doing an abseil like the OP, I'll bring rope protectors.)
But I suppose there's no hard and fast rule. I think we'll have to agree to differ here
Danny.
Hi,
In nearly all circumstances, I would much rather abseil (regardless of whether static or dynamic rope) than be lowered. The latter approach:
- Potentially damages the rock
- Increases likelihood of damage to the rope
- Creates a situation where it is hard to prevent rubbing of the rope on the cliff edge between the person doing the lowering and the person being lowered
- Means that rope protectors can't easily be used (If I know I'm going to be doing an abseil like the OP, I'll bring rope protectors.)
But I suppose there's no hard and fast rule. I think we'll have to agree to differ here
Danny.
Post edited at 15:23
In reply to BarrySW19:
Lots of good advice here, this is what works for me.
As I generally don't solo sea cliffs so tend to have a partner on hand to help, we do it like like this:
Rig the ab as normal with a pair of opposing screwgate binders at the power point.
First climber abs down with the bag.
When the rope comes free the remaining climber at the top hauls up the slack until the rope goes tight - this is either due to the first climber at the bottom hanging onto the end or a snag.
Climber at the top ties off the rope and abs off, either to free the snag or end up at the bottom with minimal excess rope to coil at the base.
Empty Bag is carried back up the (first) climb by the second on their back as an empty rucksack - I find the DMM pitcher works great for this - other bags available
Lots of good advice here, this is what works for me.
As I generally don't solo sea cliffs so tend to have a partner on hand to help, we do it like like this:
Rig the ab as normal with a pair of opposing screwgate binders at the power point.
First climber abs down with the bag.
When the rope comes free the remaining climber at the top hauls up the slack until the rope goes tight - this is either due to the first climber at the bottom hanging onto the end or a snag.
Climber at the top ties off the rope and abs off, either to free the snag or end up at the bottom with minimal excess rope to coil at the base.
Empty Bag is carried back up the (first) climb by the second on their back as an empty rucksack - I find the DMM pitcher works great for this - other bags available
3
In reply to BarrySW19:
Just to add, most of my sea life climbing has been in Swanage, and having witnessed plenty gear, ropes and even a person being swept off , what were regarded as pretty safe / dry non tidal ledges, I am not a fan of leaving anything that is not stowed and / or anchored on them!
After the last near fatal incident, I am now a fan of sticking in a ground anchor before focusing my attention away from the sea / on the leader, while belaying.
Just to add, most of my sea life climbing has been in Swanage, and having witnessed plenty gear, ropes and even a person being swept off , what were regarded as pretty safe / dry non tidal ledges, I am not a fan of leaving anything that is not stowed and / or anchored on them!
After the last near fatal incident, I am now a fan of sticking in a ground anchor before focusing my attention away from the sea / on the leader, while belaying.
Post edited at 16:13
In reply to SteveD:
would agree, the wear is shared, rather than focused. There is a problem with communication though on sea cliffs when lowered due to background noise. Most guidebook description will steer you to the best places to abseil off though.
> a weighted moving rope running over an edge is preferable to a weighted static rope over an edge surely.
would agree, the wear is shared, rather than focused. There is a problem with communication though on sea cliffs when lowered due to background noise. Most guidebook description will steer you to the best places to abseil off though.
In reply to deepstar:
I've never found it a problem as long as you use a proper rope bag and don't make the sling too long.
With tiny stances I've occasionally stuffed the climbing rope in a bag so that it pays out with the leader, with no chance of it going in the sea.
> I've tried that ( and commented on here about it ) but found that the bag seems to spin round twisting the rope.
I've never found it a problem as long as you use a proper rope bag and don't make the sling too long.
With tiny stances I've occasionally stuffed the climbing rope in a bag so that it pays out with the leader, with no chance of it going in the sea.
In reply to SteveD:
I think there's rarely any advantage of lowering someone over abseiling. You have to assume you won't be able to hear them, and if there's no decent ledge they'll go straight into the sea. Just try and ensure the rope doesn't go over an edge, and if it does then best go down a different line.
I think there's rarely any advantage of lowering someone over abseiling. You have to assume you won't be able to hear them, and if there's no decent ledge they'll go straight into the sea. Just try and ensure the rope doesn't go over an edge, and if it does then best go down a different line.
1
In reply to Michael Gordon:
I've never lowered someone down a sea cliff when climbing (it is pretty much all sea cliff climbing here) I was commenting on which does more damage to the rope, abbing or lowering. My experience with cliff rescue training is the non-moving rope sustains more damage than the safety or hauling rope(s) at pretty much every point of contact. Obviously we use rope protectors where possible but it is not always possible to fully protect a rope.
Admittedly that is a bit extreme because we are climbing the non-moving rope and man-handling a stretcher at the same time so there is a lot of bouncing and moving around, sometimes for hours.
When rigging for SRT caving the ropes always hang free, if there is contact you re-direct or re-anchor to avoid it.
I've never lowered someone down a sea cliff when climbing (it is pretty much all sea cliff climbing here) I was commenting on which does more damage to the rope, abbing or lowering. My experience with cliff rescue training is the non-moving rope sustains more damage than the safety or hauling rope(s) at pretty much every point of contact. Obviously we use rope protectors where possible but it is not always possible to fully protect a rope.
Admittedly that is a bit extreme because we are climbing the non-moving rope and man-handling a stretcher at the same time so there is a lot of bouncing and moving around, sometimes for hours.
When rigging for SRT caving the ropes always hang free, if there is contact you re-direct or re-anchor to avoid it.
In reply to taddersandbadger:
That certainly sounds like the neatest solution.
> When the rope comes free the remaining climber at the top hauls up the slack until the rope goes tight - this is either due to the first climber at the bottom hanging onto the end or a snag.
That certainly sounds like the neatest solution.
In reply to deepstar:
That would scare the shit out of me having the rope hanging round my neck! Not likely to go wrong but if it does you're dead.
OP: I just fling it down and deal with the mess later. Haven't lost one yet. It usually hangs up on something or hits the ledge before dropping into the sea. Alternatively if there's a big sea running or a boulder ruckle to eat the rope you could either keep the end with you while abbing or go to the edge (safely on the rope), pay out just enough, re-rig and descend. Slow but trouble free.
jk
> I've tried that ( and commented on here about it ) but found that the bag seems to spin round twisting the rope. I have since been flaking the rope into a rucksack and wearing it, pulling the rope out over my shoulder as I descend, this means you have a minimal amount of rope around you.
That would scare the shit out of me having the rope hanging round my neck! Not likely to go wrong but if it does you're dead.
OP: I just fling it down and deal with the mess later. Haven't lost one yet. It usually hangs up on something or hits the ledge before dropping into the sea. Alternatively if there's a big sea running or a boulder ruckle to eat the rope you could either keep the end with you while abbing or go to the edge (safely on the rope), pay out just enough, re-rig and descend. Slow but trouble free.
jk
Post edited at 11:19
In reply to BarrySW19:
I don't think this is an issue with either of the routes you mention. The one is non-tidal, The other you should be able to see the ledge/state of the tide from the edge.
Doesn't hurt to have a plan though...
I don't think this is an issue with either of the routes you mention. The one is non-tidal, The other you should be able to see the ledge/state of the tide from the edge.
Doesn't hurt to have a plan though...
In reply to BarrySW19:
Bow shaped slab you can see the bottom of the slab so no problem just feed out the required length. Saddle head is non tidal again not worries of rope in water.
Bow shaped slab you can see the bottom of the slab so no problem just feed out the required length. Saddle head is non tidal again not worries of rope in water.
Post edited at 15:16
In reply to PaulHarris:
Given the weather forecast for the bank holiday weekend, the whole question may be moot anyway. *sigh*
Given the weather forecast for the bank holiday weekend, the whole question may be moot anyway. *sigh*
In reply to SteveD:
But (unless I am misunderstanding) the safety rope will not be under as much load, and are you hauling full body weight (maybe you are)?
It should also be noted cuts along a rope will cut through an entire loop of the sheath within a few inches due the the way the strands wrap around at an angle.
> I've never lowered someone down a sea cliff when climbing (it is pretty much all sea cliff climbing here) I was commenting on which does more damage to the rope, abbing or lowering. My experience with cliff rescue training is the non-moving rope sustains more damage than the safety or hauling rope(s) at pretty much every point of contact.
But (unless I am misunderstanding) the safety rope will not be under as much load, and are you hauling full body weight (maybe you are)?
It should also be noted cuts along a rope will cut through an entire loop of the sheath within a few inches due the the way the strands wrap around at an angle.
In reply to tehmarks:
Wow,that was a very constructive comment.did I not say choose the best method when you're stood at the top? like whether or not to throw a rope down maybe ??. I'm sorry but your other post where you come up with a fantastic fool proof method for the OP must have been deleted because I can't find it anywhere.
Wow,that was a very constructive comment.did I not say choose the best method when you're stood at the top? like whether or not to throw a rope down maybe ??. I'm sorry but your other post where you come up with a fantastic fool proof method for the OP must have been deleted because I can't find it anywhere.
In reply to SteveD:
Fair points, and interesting to hear about experiences related to sea cliff rescue training. Since the OP was just asking about how to lower down the right length of rope though, lowering a person maybe wouldn't apply.
Fair points, and interesting to hear about experiences related to sea cliff rescue training. Since the OP was just asking about how to lower down the right length of rope though, lowering a person maybe wouldn't apply.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I did say it was a bit extreme!
The safety rope on the rescuers becomes the haul and safety line on the stretcher. The rescuers backup is provided by attaching to the stretcher with a tail. The haul line takes the casualty, stretcher and sometimes a barrow boy as well so potentially >200Kg.
I take your point about longitudinal cuts, don't think I have ever seen any in practice.
I did say it was a bit extreme!
The safety rope on the rescuers becomes the haul and safety line on the stretcher. The rescuers backup is provided by attaching to the stretcher with a tail. The haul line takes the casualty, stretcher and sometimes a barrow boy as well so potentially >200Kg.
I take your point about longitudinal cuts, don't think I have ever seen any in practice.
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