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heard yesterday that there was another shooting in the US and I instinctively thought it was another black man. I was subsequently proved correct. Got me thinking that despite a huge Mexican population and a number of harsh immigration laws targeting them especially in Arizona you don't ever seem to hear about Mexicans being shot let alone Asians or orientals.
Closer to home and when a black person is shot say Mark Duggan then the Police are racist yet when a far far more troubling police killing occurs say a Brazilian electrition the 'R' word is nowhere to be heard.
Is there something more going on than racisism to explain why blacks are SO disproportionately being shot.
The BBC reports that Cecil Rhodes statue has been defaced with human sh*t by a black student in Cape Town protesting racism. South Africa has had huge European input for 100's of years and is seen as one of the most modern in Africa. The african countries run by africans don't seem to have changed in 100's of years i.e. year after year out come the begging bowls to avert another sorry ANOTHER famine. In recent times look at Zimbabwe again it had heavy European input but along comes Mugabe and kicks all the whites off the land and confiscates business and reallocates them to 'war veterans' within a few years the Economy is wrecked and the country is slowly reverting to a more traditionally african one.
So again is this a racism thing or is there more to it?
Closer to home and when a black person is shot say Mark Duggan then the Police are racist yet when a far far more troubling police killing occurs say a Brazilian electrition the 'R' word is nowhere to be heard.
Is there something more going on than racisism to explain why blacks are SO disproportionately being shot.
The BBC reports that Cecil Rhodes statue has been defaced with human sh*t by a black student in Cape Town protesting racism. South Africa has had huge European input for 100's of years and is seen as one of the most modern in Africa. The african countries run by africans don't seem to have changed in 100's of years i.e. year after year out come the begging bowls to avert another sorry ANOTHER famine. In recent times look at Zimbabwe again it had heavy European input but along comes Mugabe and kicks all the whites off the land and confiscates business and reallocates them to 'war veterans' within a few years the Economy is wrecked and the country is slowly reverting to a more traditionally african one.
So again is this a racism thing or is there more to it?
1
In reply to Indy:
Another country governing a country and then pulling out can do a lot to destabilise the 'systems' in place, leading to less ability to cope with the challenges all countries inevitably face.
This is thought to be a big contributing factor to why countries in Africa seem to lurch from one crisis to another. That, and the corruption of those in power, which (also) isn't something unique to Africa.
If you wanted to make sure things were really difficult for a country, you'd have another power pull out and leave it to start the process of developing it's own democratic system of self governance, and put problematic corruption in place and challenging climatic conditions too, to do with either too little rain or too much, and higher than usual temperatures too, which is what the situation is for a few African countries.
Another country governing a country and then pulling out can do a lot to destabilise the 'systems' in place, leading to less ability to cope with the challenges all countries inevitably face.
This is thought to be a big contributing factor to why countries in Africa seem to lurch from one crisis to another. That, and the corruption of those in power, which (also) isn't something unique to Africa.
If you wanted to make sure things were really difficult for a country, you'd have another power pull out and leave it to start the process of developing it's own democratic system of self governance, and put problematic corruption in place and challenging climatic conditions too, to do with either too little rain or too much, and higher than usual temperatures too, which is what the situation is for a few African countries.
In reply to Indy:
To be honest I thin the problem in the states is the cops dont seem to have much in the way of a preservation of life policy (except for the police officers) We certainly hear about the poor black kids/men being shot, often due to the community unrest and protests about it, but do we hear when the white trailer trash are shot, or the hispanics etc? I think this maybe because the the black communities are better organised for protest given their history of protesting against racism. Thats not to say a disproportionate number are black
According to a citizen run data base american law enforcement killed over 1000people last year
To be honest I thin the problem in the states is the cops dont seem to have much in the way of a preservation of life policy (except for the police officers) We certainly hear about the poor black kids/men being shot, often due to the community unrest and protests about it, but do we hear when the white trailer trash are shot, or the hispanics etc? I think this maybe because the the black communities are better organised for protest given their history of protesting against racism. Thats not to say a disproportionate number are black
According to a citizen run data base american law enforcement killed over 1000people last year
In reply to Indy:
If you are Hispanic and living in the US you are more than twice as likely to be murdered than if you are white. So, whilst you might not have heard much about it, it kind of looks like an issue for Hispanics!
If you are Hispanic and living in the US you are more than twice as likely to be murdered than if you are white. So, whilst you might not have heard much about it, it kind of looks like an issue for Hispanics!
1
1
In reply to Indy:
Relatives visiting from North Carolina this week stated..... "Probaly a cop just sick of dealing with the same shit day in day out"
Make of that what you will.......
Relatives visiting from North Carolina this week stated..... "Probaly a cop just sick of dealing with the same shit day in day out"
Make of that what you will.......
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
That's why God loves America
> Relatives visiting from North Carolina this week stated..... "Probaly a cop just sick of dealing with the same shit day in day out"
> Make of that what you will.......
That's why God loves America
In reply to Indy:
You make a good point, but I think the problem with all this is the media. Since they are the messenger and their business is creating an interesting narrative, conflict carries much more weight than simple facts. Leading questions are asked and their responses reported. So you don't ask "What do you think?", you ask "Was this a racist shooting?" and hey presto, you have a racist shooting out of no where.
All very sad.
You make a good point, but I think the problem with all this is the media. Since they are the messenger and their business is creating an interesting narrative, conflict carries much more weight than simple facts. Leading questions are asked and their responses reported. So you don't ask "What do you think?", you ask "Was this a racist shooting?" and hey presto, you have a racist shooting out of no where.
All very sad.
1
In reply to The New NickB:
I don't disbelieve you but what I was talking about was a death by what the US terms as death by Legal intervention i.e killed by the Police or anyone legally allowed to use deadly force. When was the last time you heard about an hispanic being shot dead by the police? yet in the last 6 weeks there have been 4? blacks shot dead and 2 filmed cases of police brutality.
Out of interest the biggest killer of black males between 15 and 34 in the US was..... murder! eeeeeek
(Edit: to clarify that statistic refers overwhelmingly to blacks killing blacks rather than police killing blacks)
> If you are Hispanic and living in the US you are more than twice as likely to be murdered than if you are white. So, whilst you might not have heard much about it, it kind of looks like an issue for Hispanics!
I don't disbelieve you but what I was talking about was a death by what the US terms as death by Legal intervention i.e killed by the Police or anyone legally allowed to use deadly force. When was the last time you heard about an hispanic being shot dead by the police? yet in the last 6 weeks there have been 4? blacks shot dead and 2 filmed cases of police brutality.
Out of interest the biggest killer of black males between 15 and 34 in the US was..... murder! eeeeeek
(Edit: to clarify that statistic refers overwhelmingly to blacks killing blacks rather than police killing blacks)
Post edited at 10:40
In reply to ByEek:
But the facts no matter how they are reported show that blacks are overwhelmingly more likely to be killed by legal intervention than any other racial group.
Go to Arizona and you'll see that Mexicans are just as poor and just as hated as a racial group as blacks hell look at the anti-Mexican laws being enacted there yet the death by legal intervention is way lower than it is for blacks. Also there isn't a racism backlash when theres a mexican killed.
But the facts no matter how they are reported show that blacks are overwhelmingly more likely to be killed by legal intervention than any other racial group.
Go to Arizona and you'll see that Mexicans are just as poor and just as hated as a racial group as blacks hell look at the anti-Mexican laws being enacted there yet the death by legal intervention is way lower than it is for blacks. Also there isn't a racism backlash when theres a mexican killed.
Post edited at 10:59
In reply to Indy:
Three Latino / Hispanic men have been killed by police in the last month. Plenty of reports on mainstream news sources.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/17/pasco-fatal-police-shooting-...
Three Latino / Hispanic men have been killed by police in the last month. Plenty of reports on mainstream news sources.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/17/pasco-fatal-police-shooting-...
Post edited at 11:08
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In reply to Timmd:
I think your points would be valid if we were in Germany but its important to remember that old cliche that the sun never set on the British Empire. When you start looking at all the countries that gained independence from the UK there have been some spectacular successes. Thing is all african countries that haven't had sustained European intervention i.e South Africa and until recently Zimbabwe have pretty much 'failed' in terms of education, infant mortality, infrastructure etc etc now compare that to a similar poor country at the time of colonial intervention say India and where as there are still issues India is far far ahead of where Africa is.
I think your points would be valid if we were in Germany but its important to remember that old cliche that the sun never set on the British Empire. When you start looking at all the countries that gained independence from the UK there have been some spectacular successes. Thing is all african countries that haven't had sustained European intervention i.e South Africa and until recently Zimbabwe have pretty much 'failed' in terms of education, infant mortality, infrastructure etc etc now compare that to a similar poor country at the time of colonial intervention say India and where as there are still issues India is far far ahead of where Africa is.
In reply to The New NickB:
Very sad.
but notice the different reporting yes but also the hispanic response.... a dignified and peaceful protest. Not masses of family crammed in to a press conference screaming racism or multi-millionaire rappers trying to jump on the bandwagon! not rioting as a cover for mass looting, vandalism and arson.
Why the difference.
Very sad.
but notice the different reporting yes but also the hispanic response.... a dignified and peaceful protest. Not masses of family crammed in to a press conference screaming racism or multi-millionaire rappers trying to jump on the bandwagon! not rioting as a cover for mass looting, vandalism and arson.
Why the difference.
In reply to Indy:
Other people don't seem to have read your post the way I did.
Hard to speculate on why this might be. From what I pick up through the media, it seems that US cops are terrified of black men (more so than Hispanics and Asians perhaps) and have a habit of shooting them unlawfully. Given the history of race relations in the US there are complex reasons why such a situation might have evolved.
Duggan was shot by a police force who have a history of conflict with the black community and were labelled by a judge as institutionally racist after close investigation (McPhereson/Steven Lawrence). So the accusations of racism (rather than just "well yeah OK he was a gangster" - do you really expect that reaction?) are par for course there. There is no equivalent history with the Brazilian community (if there is one?).
The fact that you've got a disproportionate amount of blacks committing crime and in jail goes together with the number being shot. That's the question you're driving it. Most people who aren't racist would put this down to history: force people down to the bottom of the socio-economic ladder as an inferior underclass and hey presto: generations of crime and poverty. More than that, with state-endorsed racism, the oppressed community get totally alienated from the state: they hate school, they hate the police, they don't trust public services and so you've got a recipe for people bringing their kids up to become criminals...who might eventually get shot by the police. Yes, massive improvements have been made towards eliminating the racism that today's black kids' parents and grandparents experienced, but the effects have been handed down the generations. It's not an easy thing to reverse - if you're a gangster, your kids don't have the same chances of going to university as if you'd been a university professor.
I don't really know what you're getting at here. The history is Africa is rather different to what we're talking about in the US and UK where black communities are disproportionately involved in crime. The corruption and failure of governance that seems endemic in Africa is something I'm sure many books have been written about. I haven't read any so I wouldn't like to comment.
In general though, I think if you're looking for explanations of why things are the way they are in certain places or for certain groups in society, it's history and sociology you need to be thinking about, rather than the colour of people's skin.
Other people don't seem to have read your post the way I did.
> heard yesterday that there was another shooting in the US and I instinctively thought it was another black man. I was subsequently proved correct. Got me thinking that despite a huge Mexican population and a number of harsh immigration laws targeting them especially in Arizona you don't ever seem to hear about Mexicans being shot let alone Asians or orientals.
Hard to speculate on why this might be. From what I pick up through the media, it seems that US cops are terrified of black men (more so than Hispanics and Asians perhaps) and have a habit of shooting them unlawfully. Given the history of race relations in the US there are complex reasons why such a situation might have evolved.
> Closer to home and when a black person is shot say Mark Duggan then the Police are racist yet when a far far more troubling police killing occurs say a Brazilian electrition the 'R' word is nowhere to be heard.
Duggan was shot by a police force who have a history of conflict with the black community and were labelled by a judge as institutionally racist after close investigation (McPhereson/Steven Lawrence). So the accusations of racism (rather than just "well yeah OK he was a gangster" - do you really expect that reaction?) are par for course there. There is no equivalent history with the Brazilian community (if there is one?).
> Is there something more going on than racisism to explain why blacks are SO disproportionately being shot.
The fact that you've got a disproportionate amount of blacks committing crime and in jail goes together with the number being shot. That's the question you're driving it. Most people who aren't racist would put this down to history: force people down to the bottom of the socio-economic ladder as an inferior underclass and hey presto: generations of crime and poverty. More than that, with state-endorsed racism, the oppressed community get totally alienated from the state: they hate school, they hate the police, they don't trust public services and so you've got a recipe for people bringing their kids up to become criminals...who might eventually get shot by the police. Yes, massive improvements have been made towards eliminating the racism that today's black kids' parents and grandparents experienced, but the effects have been handed down the generations. It's not an easy thing to reverse - if you're a gangster, your kids don't have the same chances of going to university as if you'd been a university professor.
> The african countries run by africans don't seem to have changed in 100's of years i.e. year after year out come the begging bowls to avert another sorry ANOTHER famine.
I don't really know what you're getting at here. The history is Africa is rather different to what we're talking about in the US and UK where black communities are disproportionately involved in crime. The corruption and failure of governance that seems endemic in Africa is something I'm sure many books have been written about. I haven't read any so I wouldn't like to comment.
In general though, I think if you're looking for explanations of why things are the way they are in certain places or for certain groups in society, it's history and sociology you need to be thinking about, rather than the colour of people's skin.
Post edited at 12:04
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In reply to Indy:
I think that's what my relatives meant by "dealing with the same shit day after day". They (not me) implied that when a black driver is pulled over there is inevitably an argument whereas others ie non black just accept the ticket and get on with their business. Massive generalisation but makes you wonder.
> Very sad.
> but notice the different reporting yes but also the hispanic response.... a dignified and peaceful protest. Not masses of family crammed in to a press conference screaming racism or multi-millionaire rappers trying to jump on the bandwagon! not rioting as a cover for mass looting, vandalism and arson.
I think that's what my relatives meant by "dealing with the same shit day after day". They (not me) implied that when a black driver is pulled over there is inevitably an argument whereas others ie non black just accept the ticket and get on with their business. Massive generalisation but makes you wonder.
In reply to Indy:
> let alone Asians or orientals.
> So again is this a racism thing or is there more to it?
1
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
The evidence in Ferguson at least, was that it was only black people getting tickets.
The evidence in Ferguson at least, was that it was only black people getting tickets.
1
In reply to The New NickB:
Why it's always good to get the complete story before jumping to conclusions. Thanks.
> The evidence in Ferguson at least, was that it was only black people getting tickets.
Why it's always good to get the complete story before jumping to conclusions. Thanks.
In reply to Indy:
I don't have anything to add on the American cop situation but, coming from South Africa, I'd like to explain a few things about the situation, there.
The current rampage of the mob, defacing statues and being generally unruly, is very easy to explain. You have a large portion of the population who are living in poverty, deprived of jobs, education, utilities (electricity and water), sanitation and basic service delivery. The people are very angry.
The cause of their hardship is largely the ruling party, the ANC. They have done nothing to encourage the economy to provide jobs, they have scuppered education and they have put their own aims above the needs of the nation, thus denying the people utilities, sanitation and service delivery. All of the problems have solutions but these are not implemented. For instance, commercial investment is held up by the fact that B.E.E. rules change too frequently so businesses cannot simply right off the cost of empowering local businessmen - they hold off because they can't manage the unquantifiable risk. Power stations would have helped but the tender process resulted in contracts being given to "tenderpreneurs" (the brothers and cousins of the politicians) and so they're all delayed by decades - and they built coal plants, which was a stupid idea, but keeps the coal producers in the loop.
The angry populace cannot blame the ANC. They are the heroes of the struggle, after all. They have to blame someone because it is the african way: find someone to blame. (To be fair, though, they might have a point because this situation was not created by your average farm worker or miner.)
Now, add to this the antics of the ANC themselves. At every political rally, the songs from the power-struggle are still sung, even though they are no longer relevant. Phrases like "kill the boer" and "bring me my machine gun" are dogma. Violence is celebrated. Anybody who has studied history can point to many examples of how the spirit of the mob drives normally peaceful people wild - imagine how effective it is on a nation of war-like tribes that only found a semblance of peace in the last few hundred years!
The ANC are not the sole problem, however. Parties such as Julius Malema's E.F.F. that have splintered from the main ANC are also militant and violent and dangerously misguided. They inflame the people's passion for retribution against the people who created their situation and all of these politicians go so far as to name that person: the white man and the foreigner.
The spark that set it off was the sudden targeting of the Rhodes statue at UCT. I don't know who started that but I can completely understand why it worked. Rhodes wasn't a very good guy, after all, and the statue was an easy target - you can see it and point at it and rally around it and promise the people a humiliating end to it.
The authorities gave the people what they demanded and the lesson of africa was once again reinforced: violence works. Mob rule works. Have a riot, throw some faeces, this is the route to success.
I don't have anything to add on the American cop situation but, coming from South Africa, I'd like to explain a few things about the situation, there.
The current rampage of the mob, defacing statues and being generally unruly, is very easy to explain. You have a large portion of the population who are living in poverty, deprived of jobs, education, utilities (electricity and water), sanitation and basic service delivery. The people are very angry.
The cause of their hardship is largely the ruling party, the ANC. They have done nothing to encourage the economy to provide jobs, they have scuppered education and they have put their own aims above the needs of the nation, thus denying the people utilities, sanitation and service delivery. All of the problems have solutions but these are not implemented. For instance, commercial investment is held up by the fact that B.E.E. rules change too frequently so businesses cannot simply right off the cost of empowering local businessmen - they hold off because they can't manage the unquantifiable risk. Power stations would have helped but the tender process resulted in contracts being given to "tenderpreneurs" (the brothers and cousins of the politicians) and so they're all delayed by decades - and they built coal plants, which was a stupid idea, but keeps the coal producers in the loop.
The angry populace cannot blame the ANC. They are the heroes of the struggle, after all. They have to blame someone because it is the african way: find someone to blame. (To be fair, though, they might have a point because this situation was not created by your average farm worker or miner.)
Now, add to this the antics of the ANC themselves. At every political rally, the songs from the power-struggle are still sung, even though they are no longer relevant. Phrases like "kill the boer" and "bring me my machine gun" are dogma. Violence is celebrated. Anybody who has studied history can point to many examples of how the spirit of the mob drives normally peaceful people wild - imagine how effective it is on a nation of war-like tribes that only found a semblance of peace in the last few hundred years!
The ANC are not the sole problem, however. Parties such as Julius Malema's E.F.F. that have splintered from the main ANC are also militant and violent and dangerously misguided. They inflame the people's passion for retribution against the people who created their situation and all of these politicians go so far as to name that person: the white man and the foreigner.
The spark that set it off was the sudden targeting of the Rhodes statue at UCT. I don't know who started that but I can completely understand why it worked. Rhodes wasn't a very good guy, after all, and the statue was an easy target - you can see it and point at it and rally around it and promise the people a humiliating end to it.
The authorities gave the people what they demanded and the lesson of africa was once again reinforced: violence works. Mob rule works. Have a riot, throw some faeces, this is the route to success.
2
In reply to The New NickB:
IIRC don't those figures also indicate that those Hispanics are most likely to be murdered by another Hispanic?
> If you are Hispanic and living in the US you are more than twice as likely to be murdered than if you are white. So, whilst you might not have heard much about it, it kind of looks like an issue for Hispanics!
IIRC don't those figures also indicate that those Hispanics are most likely to be murdered by another Hispanic?
2
In reply to Indy:
Have a look at Tanzania. Plenty of places that seem to be working pretty well in Africa. Just because you can pick some that aren't isn't anything special.
Have a look at Tanzania. Plenty of places that seem to be working pretty well in Africa. Just because you can pick some that aren't isn't anything special.
1
In reply to Indy:
I don't think this is necessarily a fair description of the general response to police killing black men in the US. Certainly some, or all of that may have happened but I'm not sure it is the typical response. I was in San Francisco when the video came out of the guy who the NYPD choked to death while trying to arrest him for selling bootleg cigarettes on the street. There was a very large, totally peaceful street demonstration and I'd say the attendance was pretty much 50-50 black and white people.
From the data that is available, and it is not a complete picture but its the only data that is available - it seems to be a much bigger problem for young black men than young Hispanic men.
Black people make up 13% of the US population and 31% of people killed by police during arrest. Hispanic people make up 17% of the US population and 12% of the people killed by police during arrest. Of those people killed by police who "were not attacking when killed", black people make up 39% of the total - so it's hard to make an argument that black people somehow behave differently from whites or Hispanics when arrested.
http://www.vox.com/2014/12/17/7408455/police-shootings-map (scroll down for are chart with the figures above)
I really don't understand the link you tried to make to South Africa. The two situations seem worlds apart.
> masses of family crammed in to a press conference screaming racism or multi-millionaire rappers trying to jump on the bandwagon! not rioting as a cover for mass looting, vandalism and arson.
I don't think this is necessarily a fair description of the general response to police killing black men in the US. Certainly some, or all of that may have happened but I'm not sure it is the typical response. I was in San Francisco when the video came out of the guy who the NYPD choked to death while trying to arrest him for selling bootleg cigarettes on the street. There was a very large, totally peaceful street demonstration and I'd say the attendance was pretty much 50-50 black and white people.
From the data that is available, and it is not a complete picture but its the only data that is available - it seems to be a much bigger problem for young black men than young Hispanic men.
Black people make up 13% of the US population and 31% of people killed by police during arrest. Hispanic people make up 17% of the US population and 12% of the people killed by police during arrest. Of those people killed by police who "were not attacking when killed", black people make up 39% of the total - so it's hard to make an argument that black people somehow behave differently from whites or Hispanics when arrested.
http://www.vox.com/2014/12/17/7408455/police-shootings-map (scroll down for are chart with the figures above)
I really don't understand the link you tried to make to South Africa. The two situations seem worlds apart.
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