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Is it still an option as it was many moons ago, to just turn up at the airport with your luggage and buy a cheap last-minute stand-by ticket?
I have an urge to do some very unplanned travelling and just see where i can get to.
I have an urge to do some very unplanned travelling and just see where i can get to.
In reply to Kimono:
Not so much any more - cheap tickets are generally found way in advance, not on the day, as airlines have realised that a last minute flight is actually a premium thing people will pay a fortune for.
Neil
Not so much any more - cheap tickets are generally found way in advance, not on the day, as airlines have realised that a last minute flight is actually a premium thing people will pay a fortune for.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Ok fair enough. But very last minute is a different matter. I would assume that there are still last minute no-shows which result in empty seats and presumably a cheap ticket is better than an empty seat?
Ok fair enough. But very last minute is a different matter. I would assume that there are still last minute no-shows which result in empty seats and presumably a cheap ticket is better than an empty seat?
In reply to Kimono:
Isn't the culture of airlines these days to overbook the seats in the first place?
Isn't the culture of airlines these days to overbook the seats in the first place?
In reply to Kimono:
Think the general strategy from the airlines is actually to fly an empty seat rather than devalue the rest. I flew to Dubai recently on an almost empty flight - many others will have similar experiences.
Could be a diff story if you actually go to the airport with cash in hand, but I've booked plenty of same day flights through work and it's always x2/3 times the base price.
Think the general strategy from the airlines is actually to fly an empty seat rather than devalue the rest. I flew to Dubai recently on an almost empty flight - many others will have similar experiences.
Could be a diff story if you actually go to the airport with cash in hand, but I've booked plenty of same day flights through work and it's always x2/3 times the base price.
In reply to JMGLondon:
This is exactly what I'm on about.
No one tried it recently?
> Could be a diff story if you actually go to the airport with cash in hand, but I've booked plenty of same day flights through work and it's always x2/3 times the base price.
This is exactly what I'm on about.
No one tried it recently?
In reply to Dax H:
Yes it is, but they still end up with empty seats....you can never guess exactly how many people won't show
> Isn't the culture of airlines these days to overbook the seats in the first place?
Yes it is, but they still end up with empty seats....you can never guess exactly how many people won't show
In reply to Kimono:
Well, my understanding is that 'stand-by' means that you already have a ticket, but could fly earlier that day if the airline allows. I guess you might then benefit if your ticket is worth less than the actual seat you take.
I seriously doubt any UK airline would have a policy to flog cheap seats on the day to cash buyers at the airport, as all will have existing arrangements with third party suppliers (expedia, last minute etc).
typo
Well, my understanding is that 'stand-by' means that you already have a ticket, but could fly earlier that day if the airline allows. I guess you might then benefit if your ticket is worth less than the actual seat you take.
I seriously doubt any UK airline would have a policy to flog cheap seats on the day to cash buyers at the airport, as all will have existing arrangements with third party suppliers (expedia, last minute etc).
typo
Post edited at 12:31
In reply to Kimono:
Most airline policies are to sell you a full price ticket because they know you want to fly. Nowadays, your best policy is to buy early [or wait for a sale if you're a) travelling with a "real" airline that does sales and b) not going in peak times].
Most airline policies are to sell you a full price ticket because they know you want to fly. Nowadays, your best policy is to buy early [or wait for a sale if you're a) travelling with a "real" airline that does sales and b) not going in peak times].
In reply to Dax H:
Going back a good while (over 10 years) I had an open return London - Delhi. When i went to book the return date i was told there were no available seats for a least a couple of weeks, so i asked do you fly from Mumbai? There answer was yes, so i said okay I'll go from Mumbai if you pay my train fare, hotel, taxi to airport and departure fees. All of a sudden they had a seat on the Delhi flight on the day i had requested.
> Isn't the culture of airlines these days to overbook the seats in the first place?
Going back a good while (over 10 years) I had an open return London - Delhi. When i went to book the return date i was told there were no available seats for a least a couple of weeks, so i asked do you fly from Mumbai? There answer was yes, so i said okay I'll go from Mumbai if you pay my train fare, hotel, taxi to airport and departure fees. All of a sudden they had a seat on the Delhi flight on the day i had requested.
In reply to Kimono:
Why? The seat would be paid for anyway, and if it's empty they'd save on fuel.
Also, check in times are shorter with e-tickets, it doesn't give them long to establish there has been a 'no-show' and they wouldn't want to miss the take off slot.
> Ok fair enough. But very last minute is a different matter. I would assume that there are still last minute no-shows which result in empty seats and presumably a cheap ticket is better than an empty seat?
Why? The seat would be paid for anyway, and if it's empty they'd save on fuel.
Also, check in times are shorter with e-tickets, it doesn't give them long to establish there has been a 'no-show' and they wouldn't want to miss the take off slot.
In reply to Mike Stretford:
there's still a break-even point where they'd prefer to have a passenger than not
They know how many no-shows they have as soon as the flight has closed so there's usually time for someone to check-in a couple of minutes before they close the flight.
Replying to the point about about over-booking... there's a lot less of it these days since more and more tickets are sold on the condition of instant payment and no refund. The low-cost carriers for example will never over-book because they don't need to - they've got your money whether you show-up or not.
I would guess that you probably still could get a few bargains if you don't mind hanging around in an airport for a day. Stand-by tickets do still exist - all the airline employees get them for themselves. Typically they are 10% of a full standard economy class fare which in some cases doesn't end up being very cheap.
But the modern-day equivalent is to get onto a flight search engine like sky-scanner and do a search with no restrictions on destination or date - just looking for the cheapest options.
> Why? The seat would be paid for anyway, and if it's empty they'd save on fuel.
there's still a break-even point where they'd prefer to have a passenger than not
> Also, check in times are shorter with e-tickets, it doesn't give them long to establish there has been a 'no-show' and they wouldn't want to miss the take off slot.
They know how many no-shows they have as soon as the flight has closed so there's usually time for someone to check-in a couple of minutes before they close the flight.
Replying to the point about about over-booking... there's a lot less of it these days since more and more tickets are sold on the condition of instant payment and no refund. The low-cost carriers for example will never over-book because they don't need to - they've got your money whether you show-up or not.
I would guess that you probably still could get a few bargains if you don't mind hanging around in an airport for a day. Stand-by tickets do still exist - all the airline employees get them for themselves. Typically they are 10% of a full standard economy class fare which in some cases doesn't end up being very cheap.
But the modern-day equivalent is to get onto a flight search engine like sky-scanner and do a search with no restrictions on destination or date - just looking for the cheapest options.
1
In reply to Kimono:
And the difference now is that, because check-in mostly occurs online, they don't know you haven't shown until you don't get to the gate[1], which is too late to be selling standby fares.
[1] Or security in some airports, e.g. LHR T5 where you are offloaded if you haven't entered the security process 35 minutes before departure. But it's still too close to time compared with the old order of checking in 2 hours before.
Neil
And the difference now is that, because check-in mostly occurs online, they don't know you haven't shown until you don't get to the gate[1], which is too late to be selling standby fares.
[1] Or security in some airports, e.g. LHR T5 where you are offloaded if you haven't entered the security process 35 minutes before departure. But it's still too close to time compared with the old order of checking in 2 hours before.
Neil
Post edited at 13:29
In reply to Bob Hughes:
No, they don't. Any passenger who has checked in online (that'll be most these days) could arrive at the gate at any point up the door closing (in most cases) having decided not to put a bag in the hold. That's obviously too late. The US has an at-gate infrastructure for handling that, but Europe generally doesn't.
It's also the case that if you offer cheap standby tickets you devalue the high fares you could charge to last minute business travellers. The same thing "justifies" the very high peak fares on Virgin trains even though they aren't full - they are better financially selling 1 seat at £250 than three at £50 each. And that is the only criterion they use - to maximise profit, not occupancy.
Neil
> They know how many no-shows they have as soon as the flight has closed
No, they don't. Any passenger who has checked in online (that'll be most these days) could arrive at the gate at any point up the door closing (in most cases) having decided not to put a bag in the hold. That's obviously too late. The US has an at-gate infrastructure for handling that, but Europe generally doesn't.
It's also the case that if you offer cheap standby tickets you devalue the high fares you could charge to last minute business travellers. The same thing "justifies" the very high peak fares on Virgin trains even though they aren't full - they are better financially selling 1 seat at £250 than three at £50 each. And that is the only criterion they use - to maximise profit, not occupancy.
Neil
In reply to Kimono:
Turned up for a business trip with a definite ticket and was downgraded to standby! Was told I would definitely get on but the aircraft coming was bigger than their computer would print tickets for!
Turned up for a business trip with a definite ticket and was downgraded to standby! Was told I would definitely get on but the aircraft coming was bigger than their computer would print tickets for!
1
In reply to Neil Williams:
Comparing modern air travel to train travel is much more appropriate. You wouldn't turn up at Euston expecting a knocked down ticket to Manchester, quite the opposite.
Comparing modern air travel to train travel is much more appropriate. You wouldn't turn up at Euston expecting a knocked down ticket to Manchester, quite the opposite.
In reply to Kimono:
In my job I have to turn up and buy a ticket at the airport desk 4 or 5 times per year.
In my experience the cost is always full-whack, no discount
In my job I have to turn up and buy a ticket at the airport desk 4 or 5 times per year.
In my experience the cost is always full-whack, no discount
In reply to Kimono:
I know SAS and KLM over book even on inter Europe flights, as I've had vouchers off them when they've tannoyed if anybody wants to get the next plane. They might only do it on routes where they have more flights the same day, so they can still get you there that day, without risking fines, hotel stays etc. which would seem logical. Overbook your AM flights, offer a compensation in vouchers less than your margin on the seats you over sold and you still make a profit from bumping people.
My best was 300euros with SAS for a two hour wait in Oslo. Bargain.
I know SAS and KLM over book even on inter Europe flights, as I've had vouchers off them when they've tannoyed if anybody wants to get the next plane. They might only do it on routes where they have more flights the same day, so they can still get you there that day, without risking fines, hotel stays etc. which would seem logical. Overbook your AM flights, offer a compensation in vouchers less than your margin on the seats you over sold and you still make a profit from bumping people.
My best was 300euros with SAS for a two hour wait in Oslo. Bargain.
In reply to blurty:
exactly, taking my example above they could charge you £300 for a Oslo-Heathrow trip, then give me £250 in vouchers for waiting. Extra profit for the airline, a full plane and second plane nearer full capacity later in the day.
Plus it's reasonable customer service, you got fly and I got some vouchers, everyone is happy.
> In my experience the cost is always full-whack, no discount
exactly, taking my example above they could charge you £300 for a Oslo-Heathrow trip, then give me £250 in vouchers for waiting. Extra profit for the airline, a full plane and second plane nearer full capacity later in the day.
Plus it's reasonable customer service, you got fly and I got some vouchers, everyone is happy.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Yes and no. Technically you're right but once you've checked in you can't claim any of your money back. From a revenue standpoint you're a "show".
Again, yes and no. Cheap stand-by tickets are / would be bought by a different demographic from business travellers. Most of the time a business traveller is travelling on their company's coin and it is more important that they get to the meeting / home on time than that they save 100 euros or so. You charge high fares for a last minute, confirmed ticket going out on a weekday morning and coming back the same or the next day going to / from a business destination. You could shift some last minute standby tickets for a flight leaving for Kalymnos at six on a Saturday morning without worrying too much about cannibalizing your corporate business.
> They know how many no-shows they have as soon as the flight has closed
> No, they don't. Any passenger who has checked in online (that'll be most these days) could arrive at the gate at any point up the door closing (in most cases) having decided not to put a bag in the hold.
> No, they don't. Any passenger who has checked in online (that'll be most these days) could arrive at the gate at any point up the door closing (in most cases) having decided not to put a bag in the hold.
Yes and no. Technically you're right but once you've checked in you can't claim any of your money back. From a revenue standpoint you're a "show".
> It's also the case that if you offer cheap standby tickets you devalue the high fares you could charge to last minute business travellers.
Again, yes and no. Cheap stand-by tickets are / would be bought by a different demographic from business travellers. Most of the time a business traveller is travelling on their company's coin and it is more important that they get to the meeting / home on time than that they save 100 euros or so. You charge high fares for a last minute, confirmed ticket going out on a weekday morning and coming back the same or the next day going to / from a business destination. You could shift some last minute standby tickets for a flight leaving for Kalymnos at six on a Saturday morning without worrying too much about cannibalizing your corporate business.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
That depends on the airline. It's true of Ryanair, but with easyJet you can change your flight even after checking in. You just have to check in again once you have done so. Even more so with BA etc, where if you hold a flexible ticket it still has value after you have "no-showed" - you simply go to the desk and book the next flight.
I'd imagine so, but is the cost of selling them worth it?
Neil
> Yes and no. Technically you're right but once you've checked in you can't claim any of your money back. From a revenue standpoint you're a "show".
That depends on the airline. It's true of Ryanair, but with easyJet you can change your flight even after checking in. You just have to check in again once you have done so. Even more so with BA etc, where if you hold a flexible ticket it still has value after you have "no-showed" - you simply go to the desk and book the next flight.
> You could shift some last minute standby tickets for a flight leaving for Kalymnos at six on a Saturday morning without worrying too much about cannibalizing your corporate business.
I'd imagine so, but is the cost of selling them worth it?
Neil
Post edited at 15:46
In reply to Bob Hughes:
They won't mess about at the last minute for an empty seat that's been paid for.
That doesn't makes sense.
I asked an airline employee a few years ago. They said what makes sense, they won't mess around waiting to get someone through security when they'll have got the money for the seat anyway.
> there's still a break-even point where they'd prefer to have a passenger than not
They won't mess about at the last minute for an empty seat that's been paid for.
> They know how many no-shows they have as soon as the flight has closed so there's usually time for someone to check-in a couple of minutes before they close the flight.
That doesn't makes sense.
I asked an airline employee a few years ago. They said what makes sense, they won't mess around waiting to get someone through security when they'll have got the money for the seat anyway.
In reply to Bob Hughes:
Sadly I think you're probably right Bob. But it seemed so much more romantic just to turn up at the airport with all possibilities open
> But the modern-day equivalent is to get onto a flight search engine like sky-scanner and do a search with no restrictions on destination or date - just looking for the cheapest options.
Sadly I think you're probably right Bob. But it seemed so much more romantic just to turn up at the airport with all possibilities open
In reply to Neil Williams:
im a bit of a cheap romantic though
> You could still do that, but it'll cost you...
> Neil
im a bit of a cheap romantic though
In reply to Kimono:
Few sidetracks above. I can say 100% no you can't get last minute deals at the airport. Sad but true
Few sidetracks above. I can say 100% no you can't get last minute deals at the airport. Sad but true
In reply to Kimono:
Good for you! And I understand your wish to just turn up and fly somewhere relatively cheaply. But those days are long gone. Buying a ticket on the day at the airport nowadays means you will almost certainly pay top prices, as others have said. For low fares now you should book as far as possible in advance, and avoid high seasons.
Happy travels anyway!
> im a bit of a cheap romantic though
Good for you! And I understand your wish to just turn up and fly somewhere relatively cheaply. But those days are long gone. Buying a ticket on the day at the airport nowadays means you will almost certainly pay top prices, as others have said. For low fares now you should book as far as possible in advance, and avoid high seasons.
Happy travels anyway!
In reply to JMGLondon:
I'd like to turn up at Euston and find out how much it costs to go to Manchester.
> (In reply to Neil Williams)
>
> Comparing modern air travel to train travel is much more appropriate. You wouldn't turn up at Euston expecting a knocked down ticket to Manchester, quite the opposite.
>
> Comparing modern air travel to train travel is much more appropriate. You wouldn't turn up at Euston expecting a knocked down ticket to Manchester, quite the opposite.
I'd like to turn up at Euston and find out how much it costs to go to Manchester.
In reply to Kimono:
Its stopped being an option when 9/11 happened.
> Is it still an option as it was many moons ago, to just turn up at the airport with your luggage and buy a cheap last-minute
Its stopped being an option when 9/11 happened.
In reply to Indy:
It's nothing to do with 9/11, because it's nothing to do with security. You can still do it, it'll just cost you dearly. The reason you stopped getting good deals doing it was a realisation that a last-minute ticket is something many people will pay a premium for, so why give them away?
Neil
> Its stopped being an option when 9/11 happened.
It's nothing to do with 9/11, because it's nothing to do with security. You can still do it, it'll just cost you dearly. The reason you stopped getting good deals doing it was a realisation that a last-minute ticket is something many people will pay a premium for, so why give them away?
Neil
In reply to aln:
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=EUS&dest=MAN
hope that helps
In all seriousness, if it's off-peak you show up it would be £81.60 return, which is not *that* bad. It's the peak fares that are outrageous.
Neil
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=EUS&dest=MAN
hope that helps
In all seriousness, if it's off-peak you show up it would be £81.60 return, which is not *that* bad. It's the peak fares that are outrageous.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Strikes me that there's something fundamentally wrong there are 99 (yes I counted them!) different pricing options for something as simple as a one-way train ride from A to B, especially when they range in price from 5p to over £500. We seem to have gone so far down the road of demand-led and marketing-led pricing there's no longer any sense at all of how much things actually cost.
What if this were to be applied in supermarkets? "Sorry sir, that's our last tin of beans so it will cost you ten times as much"
Strikes me that there's something fundamentally wrong there are 99 (yes I counted them!) different pricing options for something as simple as a one-way train ride from A to B, especially when they range in price from 5p to over £500. We seem to have gone so far down the road of demand-led and marketing-led pricing there's no longer any sense at all of how much things actually cost.
What if this were to be applied in supermarkets? "Sorry sir, that's our last tin of beans so it will cost you ten times as much"
2
In reply to aln:
If you needed to leave on the next train today (09:40) and didn't know exactly when you needed to return, it would cost you £329
> I'd like to turn up at Euston and find out how much it costs to go to Manchester.
If you needed to leave on the next train today (09:40) and didn't know exactly when you needed to return, it would cost you £329
In reply to JMGLondon:
But as the £81.60 Off Peak Return is valid on that train, it would make no sense not to just buy that, and if it turned out you had to travel back in the peak you'd be best off buying a single back (£164.50), thus paying £246.10. You can also excess the whole ticket up if you need to by paying the difference, but I can't see why you would.
As for the huge amount of Advance fares, that's how you do airline style pricing. Airlines are the same - there will be a huge number of fare buckets, it's just their booking engine will only show you the cheapest one that's available on that flight.
brfares.com is a window onto the fares manual and shows you everything. If you use the journey planner you'll get a more penetrable answer.
I'm not saying it isn't too complicated, but I wouldn't use that link as a means of demonstrating the problem, as it contains data that isn't really meant to be customer-facing.
Neil
But as the £81.60 Off Peak Return is valid on that train, it would make no sense not to just buy that, and if it turned out you had to travel back in the peak you'd be best off buying a single back (£164.50), thus paying £246.10. You can also excess the whole ticket up if you need to by paying the difference, but I can't see why you would.
As for the huge amount of Advance fares, that's how you do airline style pricing. Airlines are the same - there will be a huge number of fare buckets, it's just their booking engine will only show you the cheapest one that's available on that flight.
brfares.com is a window onto the fares manual and shows you everything. If you use the journey planner you'll get a more penetrable answer.
I'm not saying it isn't too complicated, but I wouldn't use that link as a means of demonstrating the problem, as it contains data that isn't really meant to be customer-facing.
Neil
Post edited at 11:59
In reply to john arran:
In some ways quite the opposite. A ticket from London to Manchester at 2:30pm on a Wednesday is not worth as much as one at 6pm on a Friday. Yield management is a bit like auctioning in that it allows the price charged to be much closer to what the seat is worth - any commodity is worth the maximum someone will pay for it.
If it was always £75 single, £150 return (which is about what I reckon it would be if you did only have one fare, based on how Deutsche Bahn's pricing structure used to work), some might consider it fairer, but equally some people would be priced off entirely while some peak trains would be very heavily overcrowded. And no, they can't put any more coaches on - 11 coaches are the most that will fit on most[1] of the platforms at Euston without starting to block points and mean they can't use all of them, some are shorter e.g. platforms 9 and 10 which can only fit 8x20m suburban type coaches each. And yes, they do run peak time additional trains.
[1] There are two very long platforms, 1 and (I think) 15, which will take the Caledonian Sleepers, which other than purpose-built Eurostars are the longest trains in the UK.
Neil
> We seem to have gone so far down the road of demand-led and marketing-led pricing there's no longer any sense at all of how much things actually cost.
> What if this were to be applied in supermarkets? "Sorry sir, that's our last tin of beans so it will cost you ten times as much"
In some ways quite the opposite. A ticket from London to Manchester at 2:30pm on a Wednesday is not worth as much as one at 6pm on a Friday. Yield management is a bit like auctioning in that it allows the price charged to be much closer to what the seat is worth - any commodity is worth the maximum someone will pay for it.
If it was always £75 single, £150 return (which is about what I reckon it would be if you did only have one fare, based on how Deutsche Bahn's pricing structure used to work), some might consider it fairer, but equally some people would be priced off entirely while some peak trains would be very heavily overcrowded. And no, they can't put any more coaches on - 11 coaches are the most that will fit on most[1] of the platforms at Euston without starting to block points and mean they can't use all of them, some are shorter e.g. platforms 9 and 10 which can only fit 8x20m suburban type coaches each. And yes, they do run peak time additional trains.
[1] There are two very long platforms, 1 and (I think) 15, which will take the Caledonian Sleepers, which other than purpose-built Eurostars are the longest trains in the UK.
Neil
Post edited at 12:04
In reply to Neil Williams:
No problem with any of that except to reiterate that it's a very demand-oriented, monetarist definition of worth rather than a supply-oriented, cost-based definition. Ultimately it means that some people get a very good deal and some get stung for what is in effect the same train ride and/or some are priced out of the market.
Effectively what's happening is that access to trains at peak times is restricted to those who are prepared to pay very much more than the service costs to provide. As a way of limiting peak-time demand it certainly seems to work but is it the fairest or the best way?
No problem with any of that except to reiterate that it's a very demand-oriented, monetarist definition of worth rather than a supply-oriented, cost-based definition. Ultimately it means that some people get a very good deal and some get stung for what is in effect the same train ride and/or some are priced out of the market.
Effectively what's happening is that access to trains at peak times is restricted to those who are prepared to pay very much more than the service costs to provide. As a way of limiting peak-time demand it certainly seems to work but is it the fairest or the best way?
1
In reply to Scarab9:
Well, it does seem to be the case from replies on here but can i just ask you on what basis you are 100% sure? You work for an airline/airport? or you have enquired about it yourself?
<genuinely interested>
> Few sidetracks above. I can say 100% no you can't get last minute deals at the airport. Sad but true
Well, it does seem to be the case from replies on here but can i just ask you on what basis you are 100% sure? You work for an airline/airport? or you have enquired about it yourself?
<genuinely interested>
In reply to john arran:
This is a good point - but as I said, assuming you'd need the same income and weren't adjusting subsidises, I reckon if it was the same price at all times it would be about £75 single, £150 return. That would price a lot of people off entirely. Some people can only travel *because* of £20 advance fares and the likes, and are able to be flexible to obtain them (edit: this is because of the old adage which is true more often than not, namely that you either have time, or money, but not both ).
I'm sure we'd all like it if London to Manchester was £20 each way for everyone at all times - but that isn't going to happen.
Neil
> Effectively what's happening is that access to trains at peak times is restricted to those who are prepared to pay very much more than the service costs to provide. As a way of limiting peak-time demand it certainly seems to work but is it the fairest or the best way?
This is a good point - but as I said, assuming you'd need the same income and weren't adjusting subsidises, I reckon if it was the same price at all times it would be about £75 single, £150 return. That would price a lot of people off entirely. Some people can only travel *because* of £20 advance fares and the likes, and are able to be flexible to obtain them (edit: this is because of the old adage which is true more often than not, namely that you either have time, or money, but not both ).
I'm sure we'd all like it if London to Manchester was £20 each way for everyone at all times - but that isn't going to happen.
Neil
Post edited at 12:21
In reply to Kimono:
I've asked about it before and came to the conclusion I posted higher up the thread.
I've asked about it before and came to the conclusion I posted higher up the thread.
In reply to Kimono:
Travel industry. Businesses travel agencies and now travel tech.
> Well, it does seem to be the case from replies on here but can i just ask you on what basis you are 100% sure? You work for an airline/airport? or you have enquired about it yourself?
> <genuinely interested>
Travel industry. Businesses travel agencies and now travel tech.
1
In reply to john arran:
I've got a more cynical theory on it, which is that peak fares are not meant to reduce demand, but an exploitation of those without choice
.Anyone in their right mind will do their most to avoid traveling in a sweltering crammed train for hours after fighting through a 20 minute scrum just to get in. The congestion itself is a bigger deterrent than the high prices are. However, peak time is peak time because people have no choice but to travel at those times. Sensible as it sounds the "try to avoid traveling at peak times" advice it wouldn't go down well saying to your boss you'll be starting your shifts at 11am instead of 9 to avoid congestion in the trains.
Network rail/TFL know that, and under the guise of limiting demand they slap extortionate charges for the pleasure on those who have no other option but to pay up knowing full well they got commuters well and truly solidly held by the balls.
> Effectively what's happening is that access to trains at peak times is restricted to those who are prepared to pay very much more than the service costs to provide. As a way of limiting peak-time demand it certainly seems to work but is it the fairest or the best way?
I've got a more cynical theory on it, which is that peak fares are not meant to reduce demand, but an exploitation of those without choice
.Anyone in their right mind will do their most to avoid traveling in a sweltering crammed train for hours after fighting through a 20 minute scrum just to get in. The congestion itself is a bigger deterrent than the high prices are. However, peak time is peak time because people have no choice but to travel at those times. Sensible as it sounds the "try to avoid traveling at peak times" advice it wouldn't go down well saying to your boss you'll be starting your shifts at 11am instead of 9 to avoid congestion in the trains.
Network rail/TFL know that, and under the guise of limiting demand they slap extortionate charges for the pleasure on those who have no other option but to pay up knowing full well they got commuters well and truly solidly held by the balls.
1
In reply to JMGLondon:
Exactly why trains spend the vast majority of off-peek travel doing nothing more than carting fresh air around the country..... and who can blame them with Govt. subsidies?
> Comparing modern air travel to train travel is much more appropriate. You wouldn't turn up at Euston expecting a knocked down ticket to Manchester, quite the opposite.
Exactly why trains spend the vast majority of off-peek travel doing nothing more than carting fresh air around the country..... and who can blame them with Govt. subsidies?
In reply to Indy:
Have you used a train recently? That was true in the late 1990s, but it isn't now.
Neil
Have you used a train recently? That was true in the late 1990s, but it isn't now.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
I'd agree that some might pay a premium to turn up at the airport for a flight on EasyJet from Gatwick to Alicante on a Friday evening in summer. I'd disagree if you tried to extend that logic to the American Airlines plane positioning flight leaving Heathrow at 02:30 on a tuesday morning in November to Los Angeles.
Do airlines want a person turning up 1/2 hour before a flight closes thumping down a wad of cash for a seat on THAT flight? If they use a credit card how do they know its not stolen (using stolen CC's to buy plane tickets is a huge problem) What happens if that persons on a no fly list? the Airline pays a huge fine at the destination airport and has to fly the passenger back. Its more hassle than its worth.
> It's nothing to do with 9/11, because it's nothing to do with security. You can still do it, it'll just cost you dearly. The reason you stopped getting good deals doing it was a realisation that a last-minute ticket is something many people will pay a premium for, so why give them away?
I'd agree that some might pay a premium to turn up at the airport for a flight on EasyJet from Gatwick to Alicante on a Friday evening in summer. I'd disagree if you tried to extend that logic to the American Airlines plane positioning flight leaving Heathrow at 02:30 on a tuesday morning in November to Los Angeles.
Do airlines want a person turning up 1/2 hour before a flight closes thumping down a wad of cash for a seat on THAT flight? If they use a credit card how do they know its not stolen (using stolen CC's to buy plane tickets is a huge problem) What happens if that persons on a no fly list? the Airline pays a huge fine at the destination airport and has to fly the passenger back. Its more hassle than its worth.
In reply to Neil Williams:
UK TOC's received £4,000,000,000 of govt. subsidy in 2014 which equated to just shy of 1/3 of the TOC's total income :|
Northern Rail, Transpennine Express and Virgin Trains – together paid out nearly £100m in share dividend last year after receiving over £1billion in public funds.
Also to answer your question regarding my last attempt at using the trains was Sunday just gone. With the weather being so good thought I'd take the family to the seaside. The ticket prices were just plain ridiculous so ended up going in the car. TOC still paid the train driver, the ticket office clerk, Rail Track? guard, cleaners, fuel costs etc yet the train went down to the cost virtually empty of PAYING passengers.
> Have you used a train recently? That was true in the late 1990s, but it isn't now.
UK TOC's received £4,000,000,000 of govt. subsidy in 2014 which equated to just shy of 1/3 of the TOC's total income :|
Northern Rail, Transpennine Express and Virgin Trains – together paid out nearly £100m in share dividend last year after receiving over £1billion in public funds.
Also to answer your question regarding my last attempt at using the trains was Sunday just gone. With the weather being so good thought I'd take the family to the seaside. The ticket prices were just plain ridiculous so ended up going in the car. TOC still paid the train driver, the ticket office clerk, Rail Track? guard, cleaners, fuel costs etc yet the train went down to the cost virtually empty of PAYING passengers.
Post edited at 19:21
1
In reply to Indy:
Well, you can. If they really didn't want you to, they'd just ban it.
Same way they know you didn't use a stolen card to buy a telly. Chip & PIN is as far as they can go.
I think you misunderstand what a no-fly list is (and I'm not even sure the UK has them in the manner the US does, anyway, as the UK approach to security is to check everyone equally to ensure people don't get bad stuff on planes rather than to pay attention to who's who during a security check). If you mean "would be refused entry", if that country doesn't do API (not all do) then it'd be exactly the same as if they paid for the flight 6 months beforehand.
I think you overstate the issue. It's simply that airlines can charge a packet for late seats, so they do.
Neil
> Do airlines want a person turning up 1/2 hour before a flight closes thumping down a wad of cash for a seat on THAT flight?
Well, you can. If they really didn't want you to, they'd just ban it.
> If they use a credit card how do they know its not stolen (using stolen CC's to buy plane tickets is a huge problem)
Same way they know you didn't use a stolen card to buy a telly. Chip & PIN is as far as they can go.
> What happens if that persons on a no fly list? the Airline pays a huge fine at the destination airport and has to fly the passenger back. Its more hassle than its worth.
I think you misunderstand what a no-fly list is (and I'm not even sure the UK has them in the manner the US does, anyway, as the UK approach to security is to check everyone equally to ensure people don't get bad stuff on planes rather than to pay attention to who's who during a security check). If you mean "would be refused entry", if that country doesn't do API (not all do) then it'd be exactly the same as if they paid for the flight 6 months beforehand.
I think you overstate the issue. It's simply that airlines can charge a packet for late seats, so they do.
Neil
Post edited at 23:15
In reply to Kimono:
I tested this recently when I turned up to fly only to find that I had a ticket for the following day. Not clever. I needed to get back that night, and the gate closed in 10 minutes for the only available flight. It wasn't cheap. On discussion, the airlines' model has changed. Sell seats early and get some cash in. As scarcity increases put the price up and up. Do not invalidate the model by dumping last minute seats for nothing.
I tested this recently when I turned up to fly only to find that I had a ticket for the following day. Not clever. I needed to get back that night, and the gate closed in 10 minutes for the only available flight. It wasn't cheap. On discussion, the airlines' model has changed. Sell seats early and get some cash in. As scarcity increases put the price up and up. Do not invalidate the model by dumping last minute seats for nothing.
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