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After the Gold Rush (DAMAGED) (E2 5a) Auchinstarry Quarry
Hello all. I would be interested to hear some views about a route I have been trying over the last few days/weeks.
The details of the route as I see them are:
The climbing is nice, long reaches on big crimps/small crimps at the two cruxes.
The route is not hard, about tech 5a, maybe 5b for the short (me)
it is about 9-10 meters high ( to a mantle onto a large ledge and gear/belay)
The route has very rarely been climbed. Four times logged on ukc. Not on many people's radars from the locals i have spoken with.
So far so good.....
However, the route is climbed mostly on flakes. Most of which are very hollow sounding and loose to the touch.
The gear is almost non-existent. Consisting of the following:
Hand placed peg behind a flake that that moves visibly if half-body weighted. Suspect a full weighting would rip a large block off (about 500kg)
Skyhook on similar flake but smaller and with many fractures surrounding.
One black-diamond pecker, size 1 in a poor micro flare.
This is above a bad boulder field landing with difficult access ( tiered abseil).
Anyway, the route would be a nice solo, maybe above mats. However several key handholds (about 6-7) are loose and cracked meaning that any aspiring soloist would be really, really rolling the dice (i think!) if they went for it. The route is a definite leg breaker from the first crux and worse from the second. A fall from higher would most likely land on bigger, sharper boulders about 1 meter back from the base.
So with all this in mind. Would a single bolt placed just above half high make what is currently a very specialist, dangerous and unpredictable lead (which no one seems interested in, in its current state) into a still very bold but much more enjoyable experience?
I am personally very very very anti bolting and always have been. I know this route could be soloed, though the flakes are a 50/50 gamble. I know bolts are bottled courage and generally any bolting is the thin end of the wedge.
However......?
Thanks for reading.
Hello all. I would be interested to hear some views about a route I have been trying over the last few days/weeks.
The details of the route as I see them are:
The climbing is nice, long reaches on big crimps/small crimps at the two cruxes.
The route is not hard, about tech 5a, maybe 5b for the short (me)
it is about 9-10 meters high ( to a mantle onto a large ledge and gear/belay)
The route has very rarely been climbed. Four times logged on ukc. Not on many people's radars from the locals i have spoken with.
So far so good.....
However, the route is climbed mostly on flakes. Most of which are very hollow sounding and loose to the touch.
The gear is almost non-existent. Consisting of the following:
Hand placed peg behind a flake that that moves visibly if half-body weighted. Suspect a full weighting would rip a large block off (about 500kg)
Skyhook on similar flake but smaller and with many fractures surrounding.
One black-diamond pecker, size 1 in a poor micro flare.
This is above a bad boulder field landing with difficult access ( tiered abseil).
Anyway, the route would be a nice solo, maybe above mats. However several key handholds (about 6-7) are loose and cracked meaning that any aspiring soloist would be really, really rolling the dice (i think!) if they went for it. The route is a definite leg breaker from the first crux and worse from the second. A fall from higher would most likely land on bigger, sharper boulders about 1 meter back from the base.
So with all this in mind. Would a single bolt placed just above half high make what is currently a very specialist, dangerous and unpredictable lead (which no one seems interested in, in its current state) into a still very bold but much more enjoyable experience?
I am personally very very very anti bolting and always have been. I know this route could be soloed, though the flakes are a 50/50 gamble. I know bolts are bottled courage and generally any bolting is the thin end of the wedge.
However......?
Thanks for reading.
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In reply to coolbert:
Personal opinion: bolt it. It would make it a better climb, which I would say is a good rule of thumb for when to bolt.
Personal opinion: bolt it. It would make it a better climb, which I would say is a good rule of thumb for when to bolt.
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In reply to coolbert:
I would agree with this sentiment though I see your point of view all the same. My feeling would be to leave it to the E2 5a nutcases, there are plenty more quality climbs at the Starry to pick, both protected and otherwise. Can you do a bit of minor landscaping? - i.e. I have no personal ethical issues of giving it a clean if you can pull exfoliating holds off in your hands on ab rope. Don't know how others feel! Can you flatten the base with boulders, enough to stick a mat on? (though I know exactly what you mean by those Auchinstarry boulder landings!) 8-10m really wouldn't be too high if you can sort the landing out.
I think it's great we don't have trad routes here that include bolt runners (and I can think of one thats actually had the mid-height bolt removed) and I think it should stay that way.
Kevin
> I am personally very very very anti bolting and always have been....I know bolts are bottled courage and generally any bolting is the thin end of the wedge.
I would agree with this sentiment though I see your point of view all the same. My feeling would be to leave it to the E2 5a nutcases, there are plenty more quality climbs at the Starry to pick, both protected and otherwise. Can you do a bit of minor landscaping? - i.e. I have no personal ethical issues of giving it a clean if you can pull exfoliating holds off in your hands on ab rope. Don't know how others feel! Can you flatten the base with boulders, enough to stick a mat on? (though I know exactly what you mean by those Auchinstarry boulder landings!) 8-10m really wouldn't be too high if you can sort the landing out.
I think it's great we don't have trad routes here that include bolt runners (and I can think of one thats actually had the mid-height bolt removed) and I think it should stay that way.
Kevin
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In reply to coolbert:
If it was originally climbed and graded without bolts then you have no right to bolt it. If you're too nesh to climb it then leave it be for those that have grown a pair. Retro bolting of routes is wrong, full stop.
If it was originally climbed and graded without bolts then you have no right to bolt it. If you're too nesh to climb it then leave it be for those that have grown a pair. Retro bolting of routes is wrong, full stop.
Post edited at 20:09
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In reply to coolbert:
Why not drop a fixed rope down it with a knot to clip just where you would be wanting your bolt? That way you get your safer lead experience and anyone who wants to do it as a trad route is happy too.
Why not drop a fixed rope down it with a knot to clip just where you would be wanting your bolt? That way you get your safer lead experience and anyone who wants to do it as a trad route is happy too.
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In reply to coolbert:
Whilst bolting is obviously safer, if we bolted every heady, chossy route it would set a pretty worrying precedent.
Whilst bolting is obviously safer, if we bolted every heady, chossy route it would set a pretty worrying precedent.
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In reply to coolbert:
Don't do it. Those are shit odds (relative to the penalty). Many of us on here will have taken much shittier odds but, if we're being honest, we'll admit that this doesn't make it right. Shit odds are shit odds.
I'd respectfully suggest two options:
1. Walk away. If walking away from any route is a great cause for concern, then, chances are, some reflection is in order.
2. Do as John Arran suggests: do it with a knot in a hanging rope. You have your experience and later aspirants are free to make the same choices as you.
Good luck!
Mick
Don't do it. Those are shit odds (relative to the penalty). Many of us on here will have taken much shittier odds but, if we're being honest, we'll admit that this doesn't make it right. Shit odds are shit odds.
I'd respectfully suggest two options:
1. Walk away. If walking away from any route is a great cause for concern, then, chances are, some reflection is in order.
2. Do as John Arran suggests: do it with a knot in a hanging rope. You have your experience and later aspirants are free to make the same choices as you.
Good luck!
Mick
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In reply to coolbert:
I would say, leave it as it is. There is a good variety of routes in Auchinstarry and some of them would definitely benefit from cleaning, like Green Onion (HVS 5b) which is quite mossy and there is plenty of loose rock. At least half a dozen of Nalgene-sized rocks were dropped where my belayer was standing. Also, some bushwhacking was required to top out. It's quite surprising as it's main car park (I have never seen anyone climbing it though).
I would be completely okay to bolt any dangerous trad climb even every meter, but that would make Auchinstarry Quarry slightly different and it would make a precedence to bolt other routes which would benefit from doing that. However, British Trad Grading system would be slightly imbalanced.
I am not British and I am not that bold climber. It took some time to get used to ethics which did not make much sense in the beginning, but now I like how ethical British climbing is.
I would say, leave it as it is. There is a good variety of routes in Auchinstarry and some of them would definitely benefit from cleaning, like Green Onion (HVS 5b) which is quite mossy and there is plenty of loose rock. At least half a dozen of Nalgene-sized rocks were dropped where my belayer was standing. Also, some bushwhacking was required to top out. It's quite surprising as it's main car park (I have never seen anyone climbing it though).
I would be completely okay to bolt any dangerous trad climb even every meter, but that would make Auchinstarry Quarry slightly different and it would make a precedence to bolt other routes which would benefit from doing that. However, British Trad Grading system would be slightly imbalanced.
I am not British and I am not that bold climber. It took some time to get used to ethics which did not make much sense in the beginning, but now I like how ethical British climbing is.
In reply to coolbert:
Nah, don't put a bolt in it. Plenty of better routes at Auchinstarry if you're looking for 5a leads.
After the gold rush has probably been climbed far more times than you think too, lots of locals won't use UKC let alone the logbooks.
As an aside, what the heck is that route just to the right of After Gold Rush doing at VS 4c in the newer guide (think its the grave dig or something?), sandbag and a half, the balancey 4c crux at about 20ft is totally unprotected!!
Nah, don't put a bolt in it. Plenty of better routes at Auchinstarry if you're looking for 5a leads.
After the gold rush has probably been climbed far more times than you think too, lots of locals won't use UKC let alone the logbooks.
As an aside, what the heck is that route just to the right of After Gold Rush doing at VS 4c in the newer guide (think its the grave dig or something?), sandbag and a half, the balancey 4c crux at about 20ft is totally unprotected!!
In reply to coolbert:
So on brief reflection of course the route should stay as it is.
I would hate to be associated with the culture of bolting climbs that can be climbed otherwise.
This particular route would benefit from a bolt i'm certain of that but i really, really wouldn't want to be associated with the "thin end of the wedge" and all that would be brought about if bolts became acceptable.
Rob , I said calm and sensible, also "nesh" is a weak insult. "too much of a big jessie" would have been better.
The route is NOT as it was originaly climbed. It would not have been retro-bolting. Read the newer lowland outcrops description. The stabilisation work done by the council and thirty years of freeze-thaw action have altered the route a little i'm sure.
It is a shame that the route (and many like it around glasgow) has had so few ascents as the climbing really is nice and will make a bold lead for someone lighter/braver than I.
Thanks to all who replied.
So on brief reflection of course the route should stay as it is.
I would hate to be associated with the culture of bolting climbs that can be climbed otherwise.
This particular route would benefit from a bolt i'm certain of that but i really, really wouldn't want to be associated with the "thin end of the wedge" and all that would be brought about if bolts became acceptable.
Rob , I said calm and sensible, also "nesh" is a weak insult. "too much of a big jessie" would have been better.
The route is NOT as it was originaly climbed. It would not have been retro-bolting. Read the newer lowland outcrops description. The stabilisation work done by the council and thirty years of freeze-thaw action have altered the route a little i'm sure.
It is a shame that the route (and many like it around glasgow) has had so few ascents as the climbing really is nice and will make a bold lead for someone lighter/braver than I.
Thanks to all who replied.
In reply to coolbert:
Please don't bolt this. I've been psyching myself up to to this for a while.
Put a top rope on it if you don't fancy the challenge.
Please don't bolt this. I've been psyching myself up to to this for a while.
Put a top rope on it if you don't fancy the challenge.
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In reply to Malcolm:
No the route has not been climbed far more times than I imagined because when i first abseiled down it three holds fell apart under brushing and most were thick with vegitation.
My main point really I guess is that some of the crags around glasgow are slowly returning to nature, which is a shame! It would be nice if more people were willing to clean and climb their local esoterica, perhaps then they wouldn't be so chossy.
No the route has not been climbed far more times than I imagined because when i first abseiled down it three holds fell apart under brushing and most were thick with vegitation.
My main point really I guess is that some of the crags around glasgow are slowly returning to nature, which is a shame! It would be nice if more people were willing to clean and climb their local esoterica, perhaps then they wouldn't be so chossy.
In reply to coolbert:
I thought your main point was about whether it was a good idea to put a bolt in after the gold rush, since you had "cleaned" it and found some loose holds?
Cleaning routes is a really good thing, giving something back to the wider community. Good effort and all that! But thinking a bolt will stop it from happening again is simply backwards....
This ground was well and truely covered by last years Rathogate.
Thanks for cleaning the line though. Like I said, I've been keen to do it for a while now. Looks good.
I thought your main point was about whether it was a good idea to put a bolt in after the gold rush, since you had "cleaned" it and found some loose holds?
Cleaning routes is a really good thing, giving something back to the wider community. Good effort and all that! But thinking a bolt will stop it from happening again is simply backwards....
This ground was well and truely covered by last years Rathogate.
Thanks for cleaning the line though. Like I said, I've been keen to do it for a while now. Looks good.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
On the subject of tidying up some central belt trad, I've been putting time into Craigmore over the last couple years, now almost all the routes given an adjectival grade in the guide are clean.
On the subject of tidying up some central belt trad, I've been putting time into Craigmore over the last couple years, now almost all the routes given an adjectival grade in the guide are clean.
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In reply to coolbert: Ab the route again. Pull on the flakes- if you can remove them by hand strength, do so.
Lead the route or walk away.
Lead the route or walk away.
In reply to Malcolm:
I had an e-mail"discussion" with Dave MacLeod about this before the current guide came out. I insisted it was E1 5a. He disagreed.
I had an e-mail"discussion" with Dave MacLeod about this before the current guide came out. I insisted it was E1 5a. He disagreed.
It might make me unpopular but I'll remove any bolts that appear anywhere at the starry. The council have already done enough damage. The car park is a shadow of it's former self imho
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In reply to coolbert:
Blame indoor climbing culture for that. I climb all summer at auchinstarry and I don't even bother with my log book on here much now. The log book novelty mostly wore off. I do a lot of general cleaning and looking after the place in the summer as well as do some others. There's plenty above my grade I look forward to doing In the future.
> My main point really I guess is that some of the crags around glasgow are slowly returning to nature, which is a shame! It would be nice if more people were willing to clean and climb their local esoterica, perhaps then they wouldn't be so chossy.
Blame indoor climbing culture for that. I climb all summer at auchinstarry and I don't even bother with my log book on here much now. The log book novelty mostly wore off. I do a lot of general cleaning and looking after the place in the summer as well as do some others. There's plenty above my grade I look forward to doing In the future.
Post edited at 01:13
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In reply to coolbert:
Coolbert, that was me being sensible and calm you should see me in full rant mode. Nesh was used as an adjective rather than an insult, one I apply to myself on many occasions when I back off a climb.
Coolbert, that was me being sensible and calm you should see me in full rant mode. Nesh was used as an adjective rather than an insult, one I apply to myself on many occasions when I back off a climb.
In reply to coolbert:
Clean it, bolt it, climb it, dont mention it! If its so unpopular no1 will notice, if yes there will be another rant here and the bolts will be removed, the end
Clean it, bolt it, climb it, dont mention it! If its so unpopular no1 will notice, if yes there will be another rant here and the bolts will be removed, the end
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In reply to coolbert:
There are lots of loose crap routes in the world. Walk away or redpoint it or set up 'gear' on an ab rope but don't turn a loose crap route into a loose crap route with a bolt, it sets a poor precedent and is basically pointless.
jk
There are lots of loose crap routes in the world. Walk away or redpoint it or set up 'gear' on an ab rope but don't turn a loose crap route into a loose crap route with a bolt, it sets a poor precedent and is basically pointless.
jk
In reply to coolbert:
Went for a look at this today.
Climbed up to the crux then backed off. It will go next time, just wasn't in the right mood today.
I think a sling round the flake at half height will be fine. Probably more e3 5b though.
Cheers for cleaning it.
Went for a look at this today.
Climbed up to the crux then backed off. It will go next time, just wasn't in the right mood today.
I think a sling round the flake at half height will be fine. Probably more e3 5b though.
Cheers for cleaning it.
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In reply to Stevie989:
Only to see where it goes from the other side of the lake. Looks good, definitely on the cards.
Only to see where it goes from the other side of the lake. Looks good, definitely on the cards.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
It's all chalked up for you and everything - I'll give you a shout next time I'm heading over if you're about.
It's all chalked up for you and everything - I'll give you a shout next time I'm heading over if you're about.
In reply to Stevie989:
Will do man. Probably not until next week sometime, so probably all the chalk will have washed off!
Will do man. Probably not until next week sometime, so probably all the chalk will have washed off!
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In reply to coolbert:
I don't like the idea of minimalist bolting / designer danger, and don't think it should be encouraged. Either have it fully trad or properly bolted. And it seems general opinion is for the former.
I don't like the idea of minimalist bolting / designer danger, and don't think it should be encouraged. Either have it fully trad or properly bolted. And it seems general opinion is for the former.
In reply to coolbert:
I climbed this route years ago. Probably not in my log book as I only log my significant ascents. It was quite worrying and I remember being pretty scared but I got up it.
I totally disagree with retro bolting. Following your logic then many other routes could also be bolted? Anything with loose rock? Big run outs? Groundfall potential? ....... This takes away the whole spirit of climbing.
I agree with many of the above sentiments: By all means clean on abseil, remove any obvious loose rock (Dolerite is by it's nature quite an unstable rock) but if you are not up for leading it then walk away.
I climbed this route years ago. Probably not in my log book as I only log my significant ascents. It was quite worrying and I remember being pretty scared but I got up it.
I totally disagree with retro bolting. Following your logic then many other routes could also be bolted? Anything with loose rock? Big run outs? Groundfall potential? ....... This takes away the whole spirit of climbing.
I agree with many of the above sentiments: By all means clean on abseil, remove any obvious loose rock (Dolerite is by it's nature quite an unstable rock) but if you are not up for leading it then walk away.
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