UKC

Check out this link:

youtube.com/watch?v=0wupL8dPTzw&

This method does not seem to be widely known, but it has advantages over the traditional methods:

1) speed
2) easily tied with rope weight below you
3) easy to make large loops

I thought I had discovered it, but it turns out it has been known to some UK arborist since as far back as 1998, and according to one, is "well known" in mountaineering circles. I'm curious to know if anyone here has seen this method before.

cheers
andy

In reply to knot rigger:

Been doing it like that since late 90s. Irata teaches the three loops over the hand - or at least they used to - but with the risk of tying it wrong (true lovers knot?) I 'invented' that method and have taught it thus since. So useful for equalising. And aesthetically beautiful to boot.

In reply to knot rigger:

I have a rude way of verbalising it that works: make a cock and give it a twist. Pass it round the back and make a fanny and stick it through. It seems to make it stick.

In reply to David Alcock:


Rude indeed! Memorable! I have to admit, that's not what was going through my head when I tied it for the youtube video!

In reply to knot rigger:

How else do you tie it?

In reply to knot rigger:
I've used that method but prefer the loops round the hand method as it's easier with glove on when caving and winter etc.
still like it though and we'll worth schooling yourself either way......If that's your thing

In reply to jimjimjim:

I've seen so many get that wrong. Yeah it works, but you have to visually or tactilely check. The vertical method is pretty bombproof because you can't tie it wrong.

Caveat, there are always idiots.

In reply to David Alcock:

I've watched a few of the "round the hand" vids & would agree they all have a teaching flaw with the 1,2,3, reach in underneath & pull & fold getting complex. I was taught similar but far less Paul Danielesque to watch. Simply do 1,3,2 then pull 3 before folding it over to the wrist & poking back through. Never had anyone fail on 1st try from kids to knotophobes
1,3,2 pull 3.

In reply to knot rigger:

I use the twist method. Only downside I found is when rigging traverse lines (caving) and tying a number in series it twists the rope. When tying knots in succession I twist the rope in alternate directions for each knot which seems to make a better job of it.

In reply to knot rigger:

I've always used the cock and fanny method myself. never known it as that before though. brilliant.

In reply to knot rigger:

Always done it that way since being shown it in the late 80's, wasn't actually aware there was a different method.

First time I have heard, or thought, of Dave's way of remembering it. Will have to use that next time I show someone else how to tie it.

In reply to knot rigger:

ingle?

In reply to David Alcock:



There may be idiots that can get anything wrong but you would need to be monumentally idiotic to get the handwrap method wrong. If you can forget such a simple technique you can forget anything

In reply to knot rigger:

I've used that method since first learning the knot in the late 1970's.

There's generally always an easier/faster method of tying knots than you generally see or read about.

I even hear that most people are still tying bowlines using the 'rabbit comes out of the hole, goes around the tree......' etc., yest there's quicker and more foolproof methods.

In reply to Dave Perry:


Dave, where did you learn this version? Someone taught it to you I imagine?


Indeed! I wonder how to learn them? How does one know there is a better way? And how do you learn it other than by running into someone who knows the better way?


I've seen people screw up the rabbit method all the time! But that's what they were taught, that's all they know! More than one good rigger I've met has said... wait, wait... do that again, when they see me tie a bowline by different methods! The spilled slip knot method is usually the most mind blowing

thanks for sharing your knowledge with me

In reply to David Alcock:

Cheers for that, thequickest knot I've ever learned

In reply to knot rigger:

Hey I wasn't having a go at you - or anyone else , although I can see why you may have thought that.

Of course I was shown how to do the Alpine Butterfly by some more experienced climber.

Likewise I was taught how to do the Bowline whilst in the Navy too. And the way that's tied is also done by twisting the rope around in the video you did - and not by 'going around the tree' stuff. Its just that most people I see - and I mean climbers too - use the rabbit around the tree method.

In reply to David Alcock:

I have a rude way of verbalising it that works: make a cock and give it a twist. Pass it round the back and make a fanny and stick it through. It seems to make it stick.

That's the method I use as well, but never visualised it as such!
It also has the added benefit of allowing you to make a larger loop, which is handy for equalising belays, etc.

In reply to knot rigger:

Oh dear, I hope I won't be remembered for only this.

Being a lazy Sunday afternoon, I wondered about the nomenclature of 'twist'. If a half twist exists, then a full twist implies two half twists. But maybe the method would be clearer if two half twists were stated. Anyway, just idly musing.

In reply to David Alcock:

David, no worries, I didn't think you were having a go at me my questions we're rhetorical in tone, not sarcastic I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.

I'm genuinely curious as to how this method seems to be well known in Britain, but not well known otherwise. I've never seen this method published. I've shown it to a few contemporary knot book authors, and it's new to them as well.

It so quick and useful, and clearly superior to the other methods... so why do so few people know it?

In reply to David Alcock:

Irata teaches the three loops over the hand - or at least they used to - but with the risk of tying it wrong (true lovers knot?) I 'invented' that method and have taught it thus since. So useful for equalising. And aesthetically beautiful to boot.

I originally learnt to tie it using the three loops method, but found it a bit of a potch. Like you probably did, I 'reversed engineered' the knot and found the 'cock and fanny' method...
Definitely one of my favourite knots, which basically confirms, that I'm a bit of a geek!

In reply to knot rigger:

Wasn't having any go at all. My last words on this: doing rope access with a vertical rope, the c and f method is easier. Making equalised two point belays ditto.

Mikes 132 method is good.

Enough of knots. I've left that stage of my life in the dust.

In reply to knot rigger:

I have always done the 'twist, twist, round and through', or 'c and f' :P method for a normal Alpine butterfly. An advantage of the hand wrap method is that you can tie double or triple alpine butterflys (using either 4 or 5 loops), but I can't remember how :P

I used a pair of ~1-2 foot alpine butterflies yesterday to equalise a three-point ab; I find the long loops often useful (e.g. for doing two-belay-stake abseils without any gear other than the rope).

PS I suck at tying bowlines around things (need to practice), and should probably learn a better way than the rabbit...

In reply to David Alcock:


Thanks for that. Might never be able to tie an alpine butterfly with a straight face again.

In reply to knot rigger:

That seems very nice and simple. Sorry if I'm being ignorant, but I have never learned the alpine butterfly and therefore, having never learned it, never used it or known why so many on UKC know it. I'm not much of a mountaineer (90% grit) but love multi pitch climbing in the mountains or on sea cliffs. Almost all of those instance would be with 1 partner. I take ages to learn new things

Do I need to know it?

In reply to Cake:

You don't need to know it. I think everything you need to know for climbing is a clove hitch and figure of 8?

It's quite a useful knot though. Clipping onto the middle of the rope, isolating damaged rope, etc.

In reply to climbwhenready:

what you gonner abseil on ?

the humble overhand is used as an alpine butterfly substitute
(simpler to tie not as elegant etc) so you font need to know it. Its just so
pretty

I like David c&f method though think he missed a trick, the end result (which one should always inspect) is a perfect cock and balls !

In reply to David Alcock:

I have a rude way of verbalising it that works: make a cock and give it a twist. Pass it round the back and make a fanny and stick it through.

When I tie a one handed bow line around a tree, I use the 'reach around' technique...

In reply to andrewmcleod:


two videos describing the "climber bowline"
http://www.marinews.com/knots/rope-knots/climbing/loops-nooses/how-to-tie-b...
youtube.com/watch?v=_WwG8M7IVzs&

with a little practice you can tie it one handed

In reply to lithos:



OK, and an overhand