UKC

I notice from the new rockfax Eastern Grit guide that Cave Crack (E3 5c) has being given E3 in the new book.

Initially I thought this might be a joke, but it does turn out not to be a printing smudge. This is not a reflection on the book at all which looks like another excellent comic book offering from the Rockfax, but mucking about with grades like this does cause problems (especially for climber in the pub trying to get bragging rights for climbing their first E3 when it was VS when the old boys did it..).

Firstly it flies in the face of general climbing jamming skills that seem to been lost by wall bread climbers and guide book writers?

Secondly, and more importantly, it is a key Peak gritstone jamming route and one by which other grades are defined. If Cave Crack (E3 5c) is given E3 it messes about with the grade boundaries which has knock on effects across the whole of the Peak. Giving it E3 would be like giving The Vice (E1 5b) E2, or Goliath (E4 6a) E5 - it has repercussions for all the other routes around.

Does it mean E3 for Easy Picking (E2 6b), or for Billy Whizz (E2 5c) , because they are both harder than Cave crack?

Does it put Cave Crack in the same bracket as Saville Street (E3 6a) , Boulevard (E3 6a) and Twikker (E3 5c) or are those going up to in future editions E4 since they are more than just a little bit harder? And if they go up to E4, that would make Profit of doom (E4 6b) E5, and then of course London Wall (E5 6a) E6!

Going back to the 1985 guide Cave Crack was the route used to define E1 as other routes at Froggatt were used to define their grades in the Derwent gritstone guide. Grade creep has already nudged it up to E2 in the BMC guide and now Rockfax has nudged it up to E3 by popular demand. Will it stop there?

The knock on effect from actions like this are quite significant since people use classic routes to define grades. That is why climbs like Nonsuch (E1 5b) are so useful. They are classic routes that define the barrier between HVS and E1. Cave Crack isn't even close to being such a barrier, but it will become one if a guide is published with this grade, and when that happens the barrier between E2 and E3 will shift in some climbers' perceptions. They will then vote on other routes based on how they compare to Cave Crack and the whole process of grade creep will have been fed.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I can see where you're going with this Graham, but let's be honest Silica is never E2.
Are there any downgrades In the new Rockfax or Bmc Peak limestone?

I also think that with Rockfax/UKC they had the perfect opportunity to discuss grade changes with the climbing community on the forums before going ahead with the printing, but decided to just go with logbook votes and personal opinions. Shame really. I haven't looked through the new Rockfax guide or the Peak limestone but there are plenty of lesser known routes with no or one stars that could definitely do with a grade tweak in the older book. Whereas stuff like Nonsuch, The Vice, Flying Buttress Direct etc already have a well known reputation for being tough at the grade (and if you were in any doubt, you'll soon realise when you're standing under them).

In reply to deacondeacon: I can ony guess how circular and pointless and discussion on grade changes on here would be. I wouldn't have had the discussion on here either.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Haha! This is never E3, it would probably be fair at easy E2, especially with modern gear.

I thought I'd just check what I wrote in my logbook on this and from the first time I did it in '07 the comment says 'HVS at most'!

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Good spot and a top spoof of some of The Scoop Wall upgrade comments, even down to the UKC votes saying top end E2 on average

It would have been best if both were left at E2.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I guess this says it all

'A VS from when grades were random, and upgraded (yet again) by popular demand! © ROCKFAX'

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Does it mean E3 for Easy Picking (E2 6b)?

Hopefully, yes!

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I think that giving it E1 would be a sandbag on people, I thought E2 and rather tough, I would not give it E3 because it's well protected (with the right gear).

I do not know you Graeme but can I assume you climb a lot on grit? May be you're super honed climbing on that rock type...and thus it feels easy for you?

I came down this summer and did it for the first time (I had a bit of a tick list of cracks of different sizes in mind). Unfortunately it coincided with aheat wave which made grit climbing rather harder (still thought it E2 despite getting spanked).
On the same trip I did stuff like regent street and anothe cool one further left at Millstone also E2 and thought they ought to be in the same E band albeit Regent being at the lower end and Cave at the upper.

Now I make no claims at being a crack master, but I have headed to the US, Val dell'Orco and Annot for them, so I'm not completely inadequate either.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


From what I remember the crux of Easy Picking seemed similar to that of Greedy Pig. Obviously the gear's much better. But I can't imagine someone who couldn't lead harder than E2 getting up it.

Mick

In reply to deacondeacon:

I got on Silica partly because at the time it was graded HVS 5c, so l was expecting a hard, well protected, short 5c bit followed by easy climbing.

I nearly soiled myself.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Brilliant!

In reply to Mick Ward:

I can and I'm a VS punter. The start might take some working or some bouldering skill but as a ground up it seemed pretty standard E2 to me. The E2 route I look at and think wow is Sentinal Crack.

In reply to Offwidth:

Are you still talking about Easy Picking? If an average VS climber can climb English 6b moves they're definitely underperforming.

In reply to Offwidth:


That's because Sentinel Crack is E3!


Chris

In reply to deacondeacon:

It was guidebook 6a when I first did those start moves and didn't feel like the living end once sussed either. The rest I climbed cleanly although a bit tired. It took me a while to work out the easiest way to start but around that time plenty of 5c moves just shut me down despite significant effort over time (and even some, 5b). It may just have suited me and my pals skill set of course but I never understood the fuss, given I couldn't even start various HVS, 5cs; even now, V4 is hardly outrageous for an E2 start.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

At least the votes match that. Care to explain Cave Crack?

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm seriously impressed - although I think we've been here before (Sex Dwarves?) where you've got up moves with aplomb that stop folk operating at much higher grades.

I don't mind admitting that I struggled hard on Easy Picking which seemed to have a similar crux to Greedy Pig. Certainly I was well burned off by my belayer, Ian ("I can only lead HVS") Jones who pissed it on lead and, a mere year later, would be holding his own on top-end E5s on Gogarth with Jerry. On our next outing, I onsighted Isolate (then E2 6a, now E4 6b), which seemed nothing compared to Easy Picking. It was the only time the Scouse charmer would mutter to me, "Take the f*cking rope in!"

It was all so much easier with Yorkshire and Irish (I never managed Scottish) VS.

Mick

In reply to Offwidth:

It's the hardest route I've done, including a bunch of E4s.


V4 is quite generous for the start. What makes the route really hard is the way that after the boulder start you then place some gear (being careful not to block up the holds) and then there's another 6a/b move - and then there's still a crack to climb, with no rests. Nothing like E2.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yep, and you've got a rack on to do the Boulder problem start, and the next move to get into the crack proper is hard too.
The average E2 climber is not going to onsight this. They might head point it but that's not what the grade is for.

Obviously on the right day, when you're going well, and you get the right sequence first time and you place your gear super efficiently you might find yourself at the top having onsighted it. But the stars really have to be aligned for that to happen

In reply to deacondeacon:


Sounds like pretty much every route in Lancashire.

In reply to Mick Ward, Jon and dd:
I take your point and trust the views of the three of you but that was what bouldery start E2 meant to me when I started. Bloody hard but unlikely to hurt you. It also aligns with the spanking I sometimes still get on yorkshire grit VS. IMHO the purist onsight flash view never applied to such routes they were always predominantly ground-up. The rack selection you need is small and pretty obvious from below... it weighs little.

In my guidebook work I always relied on others to make the final grade decisions on such routes of course but I still think resisting the upgrading of classics at the top of a grade remains a good maxim.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I have to say reading this thread alongside comments on the Scoop Wall and Tippler thread brings to mind the old saying "the older I get the better I was"

cheers

Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

Depends on the routes. There are counter-examples: Bilberry Cake, at Burb N, started life as an E1 then went to HVS in EG, now its VS 4c. We climbed it yesterday and thought HS 4c.

In reply to Offwidth:

No Steve, that just means the older you've got the better you've become!
cheers Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

I wish. Had to climb down and rest on a new tough VS called Blinkers just over to the right, as I messed up the sequence.

In reply to Offwidth:


As I think I've mentioned on a previous thead, I suspect the horizontal break was still filled with heather when the original grades were given. HS 4c is about right now.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Actually, it would probably have been bilberry nor heather

In reply to Michael Hood:

I looked at that and felt it probably not true. You can reach the right of the break which gave a runner on the VD, without going off-line.

In reply to Offwidth:

Come on, it's grit. There's plenty of routes where you could put gear in the within reach vdiff to tame it.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Cave Crack is a complete anomaly. As someone once said "Easy, if you can do it". Which I did at the first time of asking. Discovered there was a trick move. How can such a route be given a "defining grade". Now Cave Wall on the other hand, I've backed off several times; far too scary for me.

In reply to deacondeacon:

On most properly independant routes you need to take a detour for siderunners; where this is not the case the route often gets a lower grade for this. I honestly expected the gear to be a real issue on this route but it wasnt... Bilberry Cake even if dirty and an effective solo was never more than a very badly graded easy HVS.